Template Routing & Wood Upside My Head!
I am making the oval jewelry boxes from Wood Magazine # 150.
The lids are kidney shaped and about 6″ across both dimensions.
I am using a pattern bit (bearing on the top but upside down in my router table).
I have cut the tops within 1/4″ of the edge of the template and am using double-sided carpet tape to secure the template to the pieces. I have also clamped a large 2″ thick piece of maple across my router table to act as a “pin” so I don’t just ram the piece into the cutter. I learned this on the last batch!
I have now ruined 2 pieces of beautiful birdseye maple and 2 pieces of purpleheart. Both have either been thrown back at me or grabbed by the bit and shattered the edges off of them.
I’ve always been told, “if it scares you – find another way”. I am leary of holding these 6″ irregular shaped pieces by hand anymore.
What can I do to make this operation more safe and productive? I don’t want to lose any more wood or any fingers!
Replies
I do similar work and I made a holder that I screw to the pattern. It is a flat 1X3 about 12" long. I drilled a hole for a 1" dowel at each end to use as handles.
Attach that to the pattern, keeps your hands safe and gives you a LOT more control over the piece.
Michael
That's a great tip, but how do you keep from "jamming" the piece into the bit or more correctly, how do you keep the bit from "grabbing" the piece and taking too much of a cut at one time?
I will definitely make the holder you describe. Thanks!
How much material are you trying to rmove at one time. You really need to bandsaw to within 1/16 or so of the pattern and use the router to do the final cut. Be especially carefull when you get to endgrain. It can be helful to use both top and bottom bearing bits for the operation. Do the first half with a top bearing then flip the peice over and finish wjth a bottom bearing. This should prevent the endgrain from tearing out. You don't want to transition from endgrain to long grain if you can help it.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Yes, the last few tearouts have been when I moved around the corner to the end grain. Sounds like the 1/4" to 3/8" is too much to take at once.
I thought that I could hold it steady by feeding against the fence I spoke of but when I run into a larger cut it grabs the piece and tosses it at me.
I will trim closer to the line and try again with the jig mentioned earlier. I've never been comfortable with the small size of these pieces and my fingers proximity to the 1" pattern bit.
Your suggestion of cutting this in two passes of 1/2 the height of at a time makes a lot of sense also. I do have both types of bits so it should be no problem other than I can't really screw the holder to the lids, only to the pattern.
Maybe I can double stick tape the holder to the piece?
Thanks to all for the advice! I've been hiding in the basement since last night trying to avoid the monster in my workshop! ;-)
I am sure there are people who are far more experienced in this but I do a lot of small parts on my shaper using router bits.
I think I know what your doing, you are pressing the wood into the cutter BEFORE you start moving it along the direction of cut.
So, make sure you are starting your cut on edge grain, not end grain. Then, with a sort of gentle arc, start moving the piece firmly in the "feed" direction" BEFORE advancing it into the cutter. More on the "feed" direction than toward the cutter.
Here is what is happening ( think). If you do it my way (and I hope it is clear) you are letting the cutter slowly start into the wood, it has a chance to start cutting a shallow cut and clear the material. When you shove it into the cutter first before starting to to move it in the feed direction, it is taking a deeper bit and does what you experienced.
Someone mentioned saw closer, he is right, that helps a LOT! Practice with cheaper wood, I learned that the hard was as well. Also, look at your pattern and make sure, if possible to orient your cuts so you are going down the grain, not up it. Imagine petting a cat the wrong way, same idea. I look at my cuts to see which side I want to be going into the cutter.
Here is something I made most of the cuts on the router. A fancy uzi stock for a match shooter.
http://www.mgstocks.com/images/uzilacewood.jpg
You are correct about me shoving the piece into the bit - I was trying to hit the edge of the pattern before I began to move the workpiece along the bit.
Now that I'm understanding what you guys are describing, that 1" bit almost had to grab the workpiece when I left a 1/4" to 3/8" lip on the piece to be cut. My technique was a recipe for failure!
Sort of makes me wonder what the heck I was thinking! I guess hindsight and good advice is 20-20!
All of my previous tops have been made of Cherry and obivously it's much more forgiving.
...and what the heck is a match shooter? It looks nice but I wouldn't know how or when to use it!
Stakehorse,
The stock is for an Uzi submachinegun, in most states they are legal to own although there is a lot of expense and paperwork involved in doing so. There is an active circuit of target shooting events (matches) where they compete, although it is more for fun than anything else.
As for your list of project, pretty impressive. I can do stocks but I am still working on all that right angle stuff...
Michael
...and I'm still trying to work up to trying to shape a chair seat!
If I can't lay a square on it and/or cut it with a jig, I'm scared of it.
I'm hoping to learn a few things at Marc Adams this August - then I'm taking a chair class from either Brian Boggs or another Marc Adams class.
I went to a workshop in Memphis about 15 years ago and watched Sam Maloof make his rocker in 2 1/2 days! He even let us copy his patterns. What a nice guy! In his spare time he also built his 3-legged Pedestal Table with sliding dovetail joints.
StakeHorse,
The other guys have all given good advice (except for the glove thing), but I would like to throw my two cents in anyway. I have always preferred to do my template routing in a table using the commonly called "bottom bearing" bits (also called flush trim bits) in a rather small diameter. I use "top bearing" bits only where the other cannot be made to work. Allow me to expound.
With router upside down in the table, the "top bearing" becomes "bottom" and the cutting edges of the bit must extend above the top surface of the workpiece for a clean cut. This can be extremely hazardous. The "bottom bearing" bit, OTOH, becomes "top". The pattern is above the workpiece and the bearing rides above the cutter, thus keeping it somewhat guarded from contact with the hands.
Also, in this way, the holder can be mounted on top of the pattern, giving handles where ever they may be needed, thereby giving the hands even more protection.
I would use countersunk screws through the pattern into the holder, and double stick tape to attach the workpiece to the pattern. One holder can likely be used for several different patterns, though large differnces in size will call for a more appropriately sized holder. Make sure that the STURDY handles are mounted far enough back from the edge of the pattern that your handflesh won't droop below the holder into the danger zone.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Edited 4/8/2004 3:41 am ET by Lee Eschen
Edited 4/8/2004 3:43 am ET by Lee Eschen
Lee,
Check out my reply to Jackie Chan - I took your advice on the bit and his on the template routing jig and all came out very well!
Thanks,
Brad K.
Very nice work, Brad. How long did it take you to cut and assemble?
It reminds me of a project I saw recently in Woodsmith. Any connection?
I'm glad I was able to be of some assistance. Keep up the good work.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Thanks for the kind words Lee! As is probable with most of us, I get a lot of inspiration from my own appreciation of the final product, but it's always nice to hear appreciation from your peers.
As with most of my projects, the first 3 took me over a week in the shop and at the stores to get things together. I had to order the "dish and tray" bit from the internet. Woodcraft doesn't carry it.
Now that I am fully "tooled up" and "jigged up" and have taken advantage of all of the wonderful advice from you guys and gals I am much faster. I just finished three new boxes with new woods.
Cherry Base with Figured Walnut lids.
Cherry Base with Birdseye Maple lids.
Cherry Base with Zebrawood lids (the lids in my jig pics)
Here is a pretty good estimate of time spent on 5 boxes:
Stock prep and resawing - 1 hr
Rough cut the bases from thick stock - 1 hr
Rough hollow out bases with Forstner bit - 2 hrs
Finish hollow out with dish & tray bit - 1 hr
Rough cut lids within 1/8" of pattern - 1 hr
Finish Rout using my new jigs - 1 hr
Cut and shape hinge pins from 1/4" Aluminum rod - 1 hr
Tape Lids to Bases and shape both on sander - 2 hrs
Finish sanding - 1 hr
Polish with Beale System - 2 hrs
Paint inside with flocking glue and spray flocking - 2 hrs
Final cleanup - 2 hrs
This comes to 17 shop hours which usually take me about 5 days during the week or 2 days on the weekends.
So this comes to about 4 hours per finished piece and I have been getting $100 from close business associates (I am in the horse racing software business) and $125 from word-of-mouth customers.
I don't know what is fair but I have no problem quoting this price. I don't feel like I'm beating anyone and I feel fairly compensated.
As a reference I get $75 for turned pens (I use the best Woodcraft kits such as Wall Street and Classic Rollerball), $300 for a set of 5 nested Shaker Boxes, etc.
Pricing is a funny business. My experience has been to market to the more affluent and this allows me to give away a few nice pieces without hitting my pocket.
My dream for retirement is to be able to make some sort of a living doing what I love. I'm 43 and should be able to retire in about 10 years, maybe 15 if I'm greedy.
Brad K.
I did a bunch of template routing before Xmas, and definitely found this to be true. It was very important to start moving the piece from right to left BEFORE contacting the bit, and to contact the bit firmly when doing so. Otherwise, it chattered and tore up the wood; one time I even bent the 1/4" shaft of the bit itself!
I got the piece to within 1/8" of the template on the bandsaw first.
As for doing climb cutting on a handheld pieces, I'm not that brave.
Add handles to the pattern. Keep your hands above the height of the blade.
Use a smaller diameter pattern bit. With a 1" diameter bit the blade is moving twice as fast as the blade on a 1/2" bit. And the 1" bit has way more mass spinning around to give momentum to the wood.
Trim much closer to to the finish line. I try to leave 1/16" at most.
If you can find one, get a spiral cutting pattern bit. The shearing action of a spiral bit is more forgiving when cutting across end grain.
Wear a face shield. Consider wearing a good pair of traction grip lined gloves.
Expect to lose a few. Wood just wants to split sometimes.
4DThinker ;-)
Thanks for some great tips!
Two handles on the pattern will move my hands up and at least away from the bit.
A smaller bit would be much less "grabby" and safer.
The consensus seems to be a 1/16" trim - less to grab onto.
I'm sure I can find a spiral cutting bit and install a bearing on it.
I will purchase a face shield, but I agree with others on the danger of gloves, sleeves, hair, etc. around a rotating bit, blade or workpiece.
I think you are right about the purple-heart and losing a few - it seems really brittle!
You guys are the best and I (and my fingers) truly appreciate all of the great advice.
StakeHorse aka Brad Kimbrell
Stake',
The advise you've received (in the first seven reply postings) is right on the money - appropriate bit, a jig with handles, easing into the cut (w/ sweeping motion). But, with respect (to 4D), the advice to wear gloves to offer a better grip should be avoided at all costs.
Wearing any sort of glove for a router table operation is a invitation for disaster. If the glove becomes snagged on the work piece, or worse, becomes entangled on the bit, your hand will be pulled into the spinning cutter, and will most likely be held there as the glove becomes more ensnared. I don't have to paint a picture of the end result.
One thing that will help the cut go more smoothly, is to create an on ramp and off ramp on the template guide (what the template is attached to). This will allow a smooth transition onto (and off of) the work piece.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
I agree with your advice on gloves - I would not go there.
How can I create an on-ramp on a round template that I have to make the full 360-degree turn with? It's actually kidney-shaped but I have to make the full trip around.
I can see how an on-ramp would work for a piece with an exit point and will certainly use that technique in the future, but maybe I'm missing your point?
I did see a great tip on NYW last week. A guy was cutting mullions for a 6 light door and he had a longer piece that the short mullion fit into when he routed it. He then flipped it around 180-degrees and ran the other side through his shaper and never had his fingers anywhere near the cutter-head.
Thanks for helping me out. I'm new to this forum and hope I can help someone else some day!
I build several items on a regular basis:
Nested Oval Shaker Boxes
Humidors
Jewelry Boxes (many different designs)
Turned Pens, vases, bowls, etc. - Very proficient at pens, the rest is just fun!
Just starting on larger furniture - the Bowfront Bedroom Set from American Woodworker is my current challenge.
Stake',
See the enclosed graphic - I created a simple jig design for you, that can be build from scrap 1/2" plywood, hardwood, and two toggle clamps. To use the jig, clamp the work piece in place so that the outer ramps are positioned to give a smooth run up and run off. Rout one half of the work piece, flip it over, and finish off the other half. Start the cut just below the ramps.
If you are using a template and a bearing bit, adjust the clamp height accordingly, and/or modify the cut out where the piece sits on the jig.
You can make your own shop-built hold downs, instead of the toggle clamps, from threaded rod or carriage bolts, wing nuts, washers, and scrap hardwood. If you want more info' let me know.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Edited 4/8/2004 10:13 pm ET by Jackie Chan
Edited 4/9/2004 6:44 pm ET by Jackie Chan
A picture is worth a 1000 words and it looks like that jig could be modified to fit about any small work piece.
Nice job JC
BT
Jackie,
I'm on it! This will work just fine and should be about as safe as can be.
I assume that the base of this jig extends under the clamped workpiece.
Thanks for the tip. This will be valuable for other small pieces also.
Brad K.
Exactly!John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Jackie,
I thought that you would like to see the results of your nice drawing.
I had to make 2 separate jigs due to the shape of the lids for my jewelry boxes. I lined the bottom of each with sandpaper and installed toggle clamps to hold the work while routing. I also used the runway idea to have a point to start the bit before hitting the workpiece.
I also changed to the smaller bit recommended with a bottom bearing (top once it's in the router table) and cut within 1/16" of the pattern lines with my bandsaw before routing.
I have attached a couple of pics of the finished jewelry boxes with flocking sprayed into the recesses. The ladies certainly like them!
Any help on what a good market price might be for these would be appreciated.
Thanks to everyone that replied with ideas! My fingers never even got near the bit and now I feel totally safe.
Edited 4/11/2004 2:39 am ET by StakeHorse
Brad,
The jigs are perfect - excellent job! They're built strong, with a smooth transition from jig to work piece, a stout clamp, with handles that keep your hands out of the danger zone - spot on.
The jewlery boxes are beautiful. The color contrasts between the cherry, maple, and interior flocking truly complement each other, and enhance the visual image of the piece.
As far as a fair market price, that depends on a number of factors. Some of the basic questions that you have to ask yourself are: What was the cost of materials? How long did it take to build? What are similar items selling for in your area? The idea is to weigh what you think the market can bear (in your area - e.g. is it being sold at a local crafts show or a trendy NYC boutique, etc...), versus the time and expense you outlaid to create a finished product. Make sure that the final figure that you arrive at, takes the depreciation of your tools into consideration. It may seem a non issue, but sooner or later things like router bits will have to be resharpened or replaced.
... keep up the good work!Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Cut it closer to the temp size, and climb cut.
If you've never climb cut, it's just feeding the work into the bit in the direction of rotation, or opposite of what you're used to. Use only very shallow cuts. After you have shaped the work almost to the finished point, make the final passes in the normal way, against the cutter rotation. A primary climb cut pass finished with a normal pass, will prevent tear out on end grain. Practice on a couple of the pieces you're already ruined. The bit will tend to try to jerk the material out of you hands if you feed too fast or try to feed too much.
Since the pieces you are temp routing are oval, the bit is always moving over different amounts of end grain which is tough to adjust to.
I use this method a lot on figured maple and oak, with no splintering.
Tom,
I will have to try your method of making the first passes going the "wrong" direction. I got a fair amount of tearout with the quilted maple I was using. Perhaps your method is the solution and I can revoke my vow never to work with fancy maple again!
Michael
I made a neat jig [sled] to cut tapers on the table saw and you could probably use it or something "hand" made similar to it for the router table. Here's what I did.
I used a piece of 3/4 " mdf and attached a 3/4" riser block to it which is about 3" square. On top of the riser block I attached a lever clamp [available at Woodcraft].
The clamp holds down the piece you are routing and keeps your hands safely away from the bit and it should hold your workpiece tight enough to not throw it back at you. The workpiece hangs out over the edge of the mdf and adjust the bit hight to meet the workpiece. I would not try to adjust the bit too high in the collet for safety's sake. You may need to use a thinner sled material depending on how high your bits will adjust. On the sled I built I added a strip of hardwood between the riser block and the holddown knob which lets me add shims between the hardwood and the workpiece to further secure my workpiece so it doesn't shift around while sawing.
So -- you will have a managable sled which holds the workpiece securely while you route the side hanging over the edge of the sled- do it- then unclamp the workpiece and turn it so that the next section can be aligned to be routed- clamp it down- route it- and use this sequence until all the workpiece is routed.
I have not tried it but I could probably use my taper jig I made to do the job you are talking about if the bit will adjust high enough to do it safely.
Hope this will help you. If not mabe my son can post a picture of my jig for you since I have no idea how to post a pic.
BT
The pros above haven't mentioned this, and maybe there's a reason (Dan???), but in addition to such things as prepping closer to the line and using a sled, I would slow my router bit down until I established a reliable technique, and then gradually increase the speed as I got more skilled with the operation.
I would not use gloves. Personally, I'd probably not climb cut either, but that's just preference.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
All I gotta say is try flush trimming the 1/4" Maple banding on 30+ doors with a lam trimmer and not climb cutting. 2 climb cut passes then a finish pass for each end of each side.....
Tom, I'm not saying I would never use climb-cutting, just that in this instance there seem to be other changes that need to be made first. Can easily understand its use in the situation you're describing.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
When routing rounds or elipses you're going to run into end grain and grain that goes the wrong way. A larger template jig w/ toggle clamps that double as handles in combination with a very shallow depth of cut will allow relatively safe climb-cutting. I stick with CMT semi-helical 3/4" flush trim bits because I'd rather not have to dodge carbide shrapnel, but that's just me. If I did a lot of this and had a machinist buddy or access to a metal lathe I'd turn a series of 4 precision sleaves with 5/8" ID and OD's of 0.750, 0.766, 0.781, & 0.797 (1/64 steps) and use a 5/8 bearing on a 3/4" bit to limit the depth of cut and sneak up on the final pass.
The ultimate solution is to get a two spindle shaper with counter-rotating spindles and tooling to match. That way you just switch spindles when the grain changes so you're always cutting down hill. At least that's the way Fender guitar shapes their solid bodies.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
A two spindle counter rotating shaper would be great but out of range for most of us here. The method I mentioned earlier, using both top and bottom bearing bits in two seperate operations you acheive the same thing but it is done by flipping the worpeice over rather than changing spindle direction. This can be easily done in a home shop with two router tables.
If this doesn't make sense to you I'll try to explain it better. It's one of those things that is simple in practice but I have a hard time explaining.Tom
Douglasville, GA
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