Hi All!
I am new to woodworking and new to these forums but I hope to learn along the way with the expertise that is here. Thanks up front for any advice you have.
My project is installing a red oak handrail. I have sanded the handrail with 120, 150, and 220 grit sandpaper. Although I read it is unneeded, I also applied a wood conditioner as it seemed to help with pine where it is much more needed. When I applied the first coat of stain to the railing (it is about 9 foot by the way), it went on, in general, adequate. Just FYI, I did practice on scraps. My wife wished to have it darker and so I applied a 2nd I believe about 4 or 5 hours after the first. This is where it went downhill. I applied the stain evenly and quickly to the whole railing and then started to wipe the excess. I noticed that some of the stain was coming off easily and other places where it wasn’t. Some actually came out too much. Long story short, it looked like horseshit. I ended up applying a third coat to see if it would hide the blotches and it did a small amount but not enough for me to keep it. I stripped the stain with citristrip, cleaned with a wash, resanded with the various grits, added conditioner again and gave it another whirl with a somewhat smaller foam brush to move more quickly. Same thing happened and in fact it looked worse.
What am I doing wrong here? I’m so frustrated and disappointed in how it turned out. Everyone says staining red oak is easy so that’s even more morally destroying! I am trying to do this for my new house my family moved into and just want to do a good job. I can’t for the life of me figure out what’s going wrong. Any help? I want to continue doing woodworking but learning staining is a necessity.
Attached is a photo of round 2. Keep in mind the wood got damaged as I used a wire brush to get the citrstrip off as recommended online. I found out later that you need to use brass and I had a steel brush so it scratched up the railing a bit. Just can’t win!
Replies
Red Oak generally takes stain well. Skip the conditioner; it works by limiting the amount of stain penetration which is the opposite you want. Stop sanding at 150 or even 120. The open grain areas will always take more stain and be darker; that's the nature of oak, but sanding to a higher grit accentuates the shade difference because it limits the staining of the closed grain areas. If you are looking for a smooth even color think paint.
Also, I've had better luck with oil based stains (you don't say what you are using). You can still top coat with water based clear over the oil based stain, you just need to wait a few days until the stain is completely dry. Keep experimenting with scrap; you'll get there!
Hey Carbide_Tipped! Thank you so much for the kind reply.
- I am using Minwax water-based stain
- If I can't get it to stain right then I'll definitely go to paint. My wife however had the stain custom mixed and has her heart set on it. I'm so disappointed with myself because I wanted to create the piece perfect for her.
- When you say to not sand at 150 or 120 do you still mean to sand with something like 80 or do you mean keeping it higher at 220?
- I did experiment with a scrap piece of railing and it turned out alright but I still had the issue of not being able to easily wipe away the excess. I think with the longer railing, it just made it worse as I couldn't wipe it off as quickly
- I definitely love keeping the natural look of wood which is why I wanted to stain. Painting is my last resort. Still, I'd love to just figure out what the heck I did wrong for my own knowledge!
Does anyone know of a tried and true process for staining? I've seen so many opinions on what to do that it because mind-numbing! I see people staining very small pieces but never larger, unusual pieces, like the railing I'm trying to do.
Thanks again for being so nice. I just started woodworking and have done a few projects I was proud of but this was a major setback. Depressing to be honest after I put so much time into at this point and now it's basically scrap.
Stop with the conditioner. Conditioner is thinned finish. It partially seals the wood and keeps it from absorbing stain. If there is more conditioner in spots, those spots will absorb even less stain. That's what is happening to you.
I don't use conditioner on anything. Just let the wood be wood.
Hey John! Really appreciate your reply. I will definitely take your advice here and I'll tell you why I used it. I was getting horrible results on Pine and it did help there. I saw a YouTube video where it showed little difference but given my previous difficulties I thought I would give it a shot. I did try to take care in wiping off all additional condition (I went over the wood at least twice with shop towels) so I'm not sure how it accumulated in some spots but it does make sense with why that happened.
Thanks again for the advice. I'm hear to learn and this was helpful!
I'll reinforce what has been said, skip the conditioner. Red oak is one of the easiest woods to stain just let it do its thing. The only problem may be that the conditioner may be already deeply in the pores of the wood after multiple applications.
Hey Esch! Really appreciate your reply. The first coat of stain actually went on pretty well. I was happy with it. However the wife (aka the boss) wanted it darker so I applied the second coat. It was then that wiping off the excess was very challenging and ended up making some spots dark and other spots lighter when I tried to get it all even. I really can't grasp why that 2nd coat was so hard to put on evenly.
I am however getting depressed in how easily red oak is to be stained yet I can't seem to make it work. I'm putting a lot of care and effort into its application so not really sure why it just isn't working for me. Thanks again for your advice!
You said you're new to woodworking. The absolutely best tip to give anyone on finishing, is to always, always do test samples of your finishing plan before committing to it. Sometimes weird things happen.
Stan the Man! I can 100% agree with that and in fact I did practice. I had a scrap piece and did one coat on half and two coats on the other half. I was actually pleased with both and hence why I moved onto the main wood. The first coat when on pretty well but it was the 2nd coat that messed the whole project on. Applied with a foam brush over the whole piece and wiped off the excess. Did so in under the 3 minutes which is the recommended max amount of time the can says to leave the stain on. However, during this time, it was very hard to wipe off evenly leaving the very blotchy look. After stripping and applying a fresh coat of stain, you can see the result. It appears that is because of the conditioner problem. Anyways, just want to say thanks for emphasizing practice in case anyone sees this.
I'm wondering if the size of the piece is the problem. It's a 9 foot railing versus the practice railing of 1 foot I was dealing with. Is it simply too much to do all in one application? In other words, should I break it up into sections and stain? I was afraid to do that thinking the point of overlap would be noticeably darker than the rest.
In general, I think it looks pretty good. I see a couple of spots where either the conditioner is concentrated or some glue got on the surface. But, don't beat yourself up. We have all been there.
I agree with what has been said. To elaborate, start with a fresh piece of 100 grit on a hard rubber or cork faced block and work the surface until all of the color is gone (except the deep coarse grain. You won't get that out). Don't use any more stripper. By doing it this way, you know you have gotten down to fresh wood. Once you have all of the color out, sand some more with 120 grit, and then 150, and then stop. Then stain it again. The stain may raise the grain some and it will feel slightly rough. Don't sand it. Assuming it turns out OK this time, put on a coat of finish and let it dry completely. Now sand it with 220 grit, using a very light touch, until you have removed most of the fuzzyness. Now, just put on more coats sanding with 220 between coats. Good luck.
By the way, if you used one of those small "toothbrush" type wire brushes with the fine stainless steel bristles, I don't think you did any harm to the wood.
Hey Bilyo!
Honestly, your kindness and reassurance really gave me a boost here. No joke, I've been kind of depressed with the whole thing after putting so much effort into it. Just want to do a good job on the project as it is for my wife and family. Nice knowing that everyone experiences some hiccups along the way. Now I'm just hear to learn where I made a mistake and how to fix it. So thankful to have everyone here willing to help!
I'm a little hesitant to sand down again only because the previous time I sanded it seemed like it was extremely challenging to get to fresh wood. I'm a fairly fit guy and I was getting exhausted not even getting close to where I wanted!
When you say hard rubber or cork block, do they make ones that will allow me to get into the curved surfaces of the railing? That's where I was having most problems.
One more question, when you say apply a finish are you referring to something like a shellac sealer or polyurethane?
Yep, what I used was a steel stripping wire brush. Perhaps it is just the result of the stripping and sanding but the wood just doesn't look as good as it originally did. I thought it might have been the brush. The Citristrip was really difficult to get off. I now know I should have used brass just to make sure.
Again, thanks so much for your response. I'm really motivated now to make this work and learn as much as I can in the process!
"When you say hard rubber or cork block, do they make ones that will allow me to get into the curved surfaces of the railing? That's where I was having most problems."
I guess you can buy them. I just use some wood blocks onto which I glued some 1/8" rubber sheet material. I also have some that I glued onto 1/4" cork sheet. A clear (no knots) softwood (pine) block also works. For detail work, I will use a variety of backings including small blocks or sticks cut at an angle or even dowels of various sizes. What ever works. Sometimes, you just have to use your fingers.
"One more question, when you say apply a finish are you referring to something like a shellac sealer or polyurethane?"
Either one. IMO, that first coat is for locking in the stain and "freezing" any raised grain. Then, with a very light touch, take off the "fuzz" and continue with your finishing steps.
I checked out some online but in the process I found a tip of using pipe insulation for rounded contours. It actually ended up working quite well. I like your suggestions though for future projects and have those in my notes.
I ended up sanding with 100 and 120 grits today for a couple of hours. It's exhausting! I posted some photos below. I hope that's deep enough to allow me somewhat of a fresh start. Cheers!
Ok, just gonna throw this out there. The first thing I thought of was that you did not let the 1st coat dry enough. When second coat was applied it "softened" the first coat and caused it to wipe off in areas. I have done multiple stain coats before, just be patient on drying time. Also, I like minwax poly for seal coats. Hold up well and water based.
Hi Concealed! Really appreciate you explaining what might have happened. That totally makes a lot of sense. I believe I waited the length of time it said on the container but I also realize every environment is different (temp, humidity, etc.) and should have waited longer. Even if it doesn't matter that much, I'll make sure to wait extra longer as I that is much more preferred than fixing any mess that comes out of it! I'll check out the minwax poly as well. Cheers!
Just wanted to update everyone that the responses inspired me to give it another shot. I spent about two hours today sanding with 100 and then 120. I'll do another round with 150 tomorrow and stop there as recommended.
I found a tip for sanding contoured surfaces that really worked well. I used pipe insulation and wrapped the sandpaper around it. Really did the job! I also used a sanding sponge on top but then wrapped a different grit around it and it seemed to work just as well.
Attached are how it looks now. Hopefully this is sanded enough to give it another shot. From the feedback I've gathered, I will apply stain without conditioner and give more than adequate time for drying and then go from there. If it doesn't work out, I will have to resort to painting which isn't really what I wanted to do.
Quick questions regarding staining application:
1) How long should you leave stain on? The container says no longer than 3 minutes. Is it most optimal to do it as quickly as possible, as in 1 minute? I'm asking because in the past I tried to do the whole piece and perhaps that was too much for one application.
2) Is there a trick to optimally wiping off the excess stain? I have used rags and shop towels with medium pressure but then I end up applying with more pressure when I see it not coming off well.
3) I apply with a foam brush and it went on well but I'm wondering if there is a magic amount to put on. In other words, maybe I had too much on there?
Thanks again everyone for your comments. It really means a lot to have your help! Cheers!
When I do stain, I use the blue shop towels from auto parts store. Folded a few times to be smaller and thicker. Then just wipe it on. It wipes on and off at the same time. Does not leave extra. If I want darker, I apply a second coat the next day in the same way.
It all comes down to preference, I like to go that route and get the look that the wood takes. Most times I only do 1 coat. But have had jobs that requested darker and multiple coats.
Sunday Update:
I finished sanding this morning at 150 grit and stopped there as recommended. All looked good. I cleaned off and vacuumed the excess dust so the wood was clean. I decided to try a sock for staining this time to see if it would go on easier. I thought it was doing the trick until after I continued applying the stain, I noticed blotchiness again as I was more than halfway done. This is where I sent to spread out the stain for evenness and it seemed like an endless battle. In some spots, I added a little more stain to even out and it just seemed like I could never get it even. After about 9 minutes (I was timing) I ended up quitting. I'll give it the day to dry and will update with photos. I was really hoping this would have done the trick yet it seems like another failure. Really dissappointed as I just am not understanding what the hell is going on to cause such an ugly stain.
Any last ditch suggestions? I think I will forever give up on staining wood at this point which is sad because I like the beauty of wood and hate hiding it with paint.
Well, "Viking', this is quite a saga you have going here. From what I've read it looks like a case of "All-at-once-ism" is a part of the problem. In other words, my friend, you're trying to apply the stain to the entire 9' handrail (banister and balusters) all at once, which is allowing the beginning of it to dry well before you're finished applying stain to the other end. Since you're a member, I'd strongly recommend you take a break, find an article or three in the FWW index on finishing. Better yet, a book or two by one or more of their expert authors on the topic then sit down and read it first, before you go off and keep doing the same things over and over. (Yes, there's that pesky Einstein quotation lurking in there.) Oh, yes, you don't have to wait for anything after sanding, just clean up the wood dust you've created. You do have to wait after staining to allow it to soak in the required amount - but no longer than that required time. That means you may have to do it in sections. I hope you have enough scrap and, I hope your wife either got you lots of stain, or there's a precise formula with which to order some more. "Don't forget: "Patience is a virtue", just like our parents told us. Good luck.
[Addendum: In keeping with your moniker, here's an 8 year old Swedish girl and the Viking Sword she found while wading in a lake not too long ago.]
Sorry you are still having trouble. I wish I had picked up on the fact that you are using a water based stain. I have never been able to get good results with water based as it does not blend into itself easily. This could be your issue. I look forward to seeing a picture after it dries.
Yeah, it is a water based stain. My wife had it mixed at Sherwin Williams for the color she wanted. Not sure they also mix oil stains or not as I wasn't there. Posted some photos below. Looks pretty similar to the first time I tried the stain. Super depressing after putting in all the man hours to try and make it work. This was my 3rd wood working project and was really loving it until now. Seems like what was supposed to be the easiest part of the whole project ended up being the most difficult. Anyways, I still want to learn so again I very much appreciate your help and experience. Nice to know I'm not alone in experiencing difficulties with staining.
Hey everyone and thanks again for all of your support. Based on how it looks now, I think painting is the only final solution. I may try one more coat of stain but I don't think that will fix the issue; whatever the issue is.
This sadly means the next two railing projects for the house will also have to be painted. I'll be afraid to try staining forever now given that it wasted so much of my time effort despite trying extremely hard to do things "right."
I do however firmly believe in the learning process and if there is anything additional I can learn about what I did wrong then I'll count it as a small win I suppose. Given what you see, any thoughts? My main issue with the application was that I just simply could not get it applied evenly no matter how hard I tried; this was both with a foam applicator (first round) and a sock (after destripping and sanding everything down again). I'd really love leaving this failure with at least knowledge about what I did wrong so I have enough confidence to not give up on woodworking all together. We were hoping to have this be a nice addition to our home for decorating but alas that doesn't seem like it will be the case.
Hi
Maybe a bit late but my $0.02
Water based stains don’t work well with open pore woods like oak and ash. The surface tension of the water is too much to settle into the wood and it gets stuck above the grain. You end up with small dots where the water did not soak in
Oil based dyes seem to work well. I don’t stain often but for ash and oak have had more success with gel stains than any other type. You will definitely get a more even coat as it is less subjective to the density of the pores.
Bob Flexners book Understanding Wood Finishing is a terrific resource. More than a reference, it is quite readable and I’m sure I’m not the only one here that would recommend it.
Mike
Put your topcoat on it. Its fine, really. I think you'll be happier than with paint.
The trouble with paint on a handrail is that most paint stays a little soft, and it will always give you fits. I'm sure there is a type that will cure harder, but most paint is just not durable for that use.
I would just put my topcoat on that and declare victory.
I agree with John c2
Don’t be too hard on yourself...
But...
If you do decide to paint, prior to painting the next two railing projects, stain them as an experiment, based on what you learned here
Looks good to me. 2 coats of poly and go on with your day. Put the worst of the blotching to the wall side. Most stairwells are lit worse than you photos, you won't even see if in a year, and if you do you'll still have the paint option.
Don't give up and paint it. I agree that you should go ahead and finish it. You will forever see all of the mistakes that you think are there but no one else will. One of the things we love about wood is its natural variability. Remember that once you have your finish coats on it, the light will reflect and disperse in a completely different way. There will be highlights, shades, and shadows that will reduce the effects of the flat "defects" that you now see.
I too have difficulty using water based stains. They dry too fast and it is very difficult to blend one stroke into another. For the next project, if it needs to match this one, Try to work fast, don't let it set (contrary to instructions). Wipe it on and off as quickly as you can with a rag. Don't bother with a brush.
For future unrelated projects, use oil base stains. I like working with oil based gel stain. General Finishes makes a good line. At some point, give dye a try. Transtint products is a good one to start with. Mixed with water, and used on oak, it results in less contrast between summer and winter wood.
You've done good. Pat yourself on the back and move on.
Happy Holidays everyone! Thanks again for supporting a newbie on this project with all of your experience and wisdom. It felt great to have this support as I never had anyone to show me these things in my family.
So, attached is the final product all installed. What I ended up doing, just to see what happened, was applied one additional coat onto the one I last showed to see if it evened out the finish at all. I worked quickly and applied less stain. It generally did the job well although and now it makes me believe I added too much during my first pass (good lesson learned). I then applied 3 coats of Zinsser sealcoat (shellac) and three coats of polyurethane. As you all noted, I'll probably always notice the problems but no one else will.
As for the installation of the railing, that was another set of problems! The balusters installed in holes I created in the flooring where I measured multiple times for accuracy. Indeed, measuring between the balusters at the bottom revealed pretty good measurements (no more than a 10th off from what I wanted. Unfortunately, I measured for the minimum distance between balusters (4") and my errors have a few sections with greater than 4" which means I would violate a code. The issue I can't quite figure out is when I nailed the posts at the top, I used a level to make sure they were all plum, and they are, however a few posts are "crooked" in the sense that the gap at the top is greater/lesser than the gap at the bottom. I thought this was a solid approach but I guess not. I was also rushing as my balusters weren't all the same size so my railing didn't fit exactly how I wanted it over the balusters. Lesson learned that I probably should have cut all the balusters instead of trusting they were all the same height from the factory. My wife liked the railing tall for our 19 month old which is why I kept it the same.
Anyways, trying to document this well in case a poor lad like myself runs into the same problem in the future. I found this forum, and others, so helpful while tackling the project. Next up is an angled railing on a short set of stairs and then a long angled railing on my stairs to the 2nd floor.
Thanks again and Happy Early New Year!
Wow! That looks great! Keep up the good work.
Looking good man! Don’t get discouraged! Keep it up and have some fun with it!
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