After installing a dust collection system, I then set up an air cleaner. I assumed this system would maximize the protection for my old and fragile lungs.
Apparently, that is not the case. I stumbled across the piece below in the Oneida site, written by one of their engineers. His prose is pretty thick and turgid, but as I read it, he is saying the air cleaner actually does more harm than good.
According to him, the air cleaner works to suspend more dust in the air — especially the finer, more dangerous particles.
http://www.oneida-air.com/airfilterspop.htm
Anybody have thoughts on this? It makes me want to shut my air cleaner off, and leave it off.
Replies
Nikki, that article has been discussed pretty thoroughly here at Knots, and certainly has some dedicated defenders. I just did an Advanced Search using
and found one of the discussions. The introduction of the article starts here:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=16481.22
Pesonally, I think you should keep your air cleaner.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks. Your link goes to a post that reprints the very article I was talking about.
I guess that just goes to prove that there's very little new under the sun -- or at least around here.
Nikki, did you read the rest of the posts in that thread? I started you at the post of the article, but there was further discussion down the line.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yep -- just finished. There's a wealth of interesting, and highly informed opinion in that thread.
Here's what I concluded after reading these comments:
1) I have always used a mask for long runs in milling operations, but clearly it would be prudent to get in the habit of routinely using a dust mask, however "inconvenient" that might be.
Most that I have seen have two rubber bands to hold it on your face, and I wonder if there are other styles that are more convenient to pull on and remove? Any suggestions?
2) Air cleaner. You implied that the Oneida guy might have an axe to grind, but I really don't think so. Oneida is certainly capable of jumping on the growing market for air cleaners -- if only they decided to do so.
I equipped mine with a 2 hour timer, and I think I will leave it off while I'm in the shop, but turn it on as I leave.
Would I buy an air cleaner if I didn't already have one? No. I have a Jet #1100 DC, and if I had it to do all over again, I would take the air cleaner $$, and instead buy the Oneida 1.5 hp cyclone model (which as I recall, is about $600).
Mainly, what I learned from the thread is first, buy the best DC you can, and second, wear a mask as often (and as long) as you can tolerate it while in the shop.
Edited 5/31/2004 1:46 pm ET by nikkiwood
I use a special dust mask that is great even when it is hot.
It is called Dust Bee Gone, woodcraft and other sell them for about $35. Washable, made of cloth, you can almost forget you have it on and yet is much better than the disposable paper ones.
nice to see others who enjoy inserting an inappropriate, but nonetheless mildly entertaining, comment from time to time... ;-)
m
First things first - I am the Safety & Environmental Manager for a Utility. Those disposable dust masks are BANNED from all of our plants. They are next to worthless. I just finished my Asbesto's Supervisor's course and in talking with a CIH, she confirmed my views. There are excellent masks out there that WORK!
Norton and MSA both have the pancake filter maskes and can be found in most Catalouges - Lab Safety has them for under twenty dollars(IIRC).Kevin Arceneaux
Visit the Lone Wolf Activities for MS Trainsimulator at http://www.3dtrains.com
How about the Dust Bee Gone masks recommended in an earlier post?
Do you have any specific recommendations among the many masks made by Norton and MSA. For me, it would like wandering through a maze, not knowing what I was looking for?
Thanks.
I don't know about the Dust be gone masks. I'll have to look at them and see.
Here are the links to Lab Safety for 2 that I highly recommend. The nice think about both of them is that you can get the organic cartridge for them if paint fumes bother you or that you may be allergic to.
http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=1471&parent_id=12695
http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=1595&parent_id=12700
You can get the part number and do a search to see if you can find them cheaper.
I know they are a PITA to wear, they are hot and can be uncomfortable to wear. But when cutting MDF and other particle type boards, you produce a tremendous amout of fine dust with the glue binders. This is not really good for you.
NOTE: the filters and cartridges are NOT interchangable between brands.Kevin Arceneaux
Visit the Lone Wolf Activities for MS Trainsimulator at http://www.3dtrains.com
Mr. A,
Thanks for the recommendations and links.
The single biggest reason I refrain from wearing a mask when I probably should is because they make my safety glasses fog up and push them up, shifting the bi-focal element into what would normally be my distance range.
I paid good money for prescription safety glasses and find both unprotected eyes and poor vision unacceptable. The nose pieces on the recommended masks look no better than others I've tried in this regard. Do you have any recommendations for those of us who wear bi-focal safety glasses?
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I think the Airmate Frank mentions, or something like it, is the way to go. It blows cool, dry, filtered air (cool and dry as compared to what you exhale) over your face. The volume of air is high enough that you don't need a really tight fitting mask because the positive pressure keeps the ambient air from sneaking in under the seals.
I looked at the airmate from 3M and thing that would be a good choice, though expensive. A couple of links to different sellers:
http://www.airwareamerica.com/prod02.htm
http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=12757&parent_id=39131
PAPR's have a protection factor of 100. I otherwords, 1% of the particles are expected to get into the mask. A half face one like the others have a factor of 10. The PAPR's are being reviewed by NIOSH to change the factor to 1000. This would be the same factor the a mask a firefighter would use.
Here is another half-face one, it states that it has ample room for protective eyeware, it does not look as think as the standard ones.
http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=29514&parent_id=12699
Kevin Arceneaux
Visit the Lone Wolf Activities for MS Trainsimulator at http://www.3dtrains.com
The airmate visor was made by a company called Racall in the past. I think I paid about $250 years ago. Now the thing is about $400- kind of crazy. I bet there must be a cheaper way to jurry rig something similar.
The peak inspiratory flow rate in someone doing light work is about 70 liters per minute. This is why standard dust masks don't work. You entrain contaminated air around the edges of the mask.
The mining literature is really the place to look for a good dust solution. Industrial hygenists worked this out years ago. I don't know all the details. The main thrust of it is, however, fresh air past the workplace and dust removal at the point of the tool.
Frank
Jazzdog --
Like you, I wear glasses. I looked around a lot until I found a mask which fits my face without leaks, and which lets my glasses still sit on my nose. (No leaks means no dust coming in, and it also means that you aren't exhausting wet air directly up your cheeks --- a major cause of fog on your glasses.) The mask I wear is the model 6000 half-face respirator by 3M. It is offered in three different sizes, which helps with the fitting issue. It costs $15 or so. You can get replaceable filters for it for dust, for organic vapors, and such. http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/ is one source.
Jamie
Let me try to get all this organized in one post.
There are different types of respirators
The dust masks - these are worthless and are banned from my plants and many other industrial facilities.
Half Face masks - This is what I would recommend for most of you out here. I gave links to three excellent ones in my other posts. As Jamie pointed out, you may not be getting a good fit and this could lead to problems, esp. with glasses. My recommendation in this case would be to find a local safety equipment supplier. Look in your local phone book. You may pay a couple of bucks more, but you will get a fit test and help in getting the mask set up for you. You should not be charged for the fit test and help. If you are going to wear it much, this would be the way to go.
Full Face masks - these are a bit more expensive, but you can ditch the safety glasses while using it. If you wear glasses, you may have troubles. Again, this would be a time to find a local supplier to assist you. These are heavier and hotter than a half mask, but it is up to you to decide if this would be the way to go.
PAPR - these are the most expensive option. They have a battery pack that supplies air to the mask or hood. But of all the options, this has the highest level of protection of the options listed here. IF you are planning on using the hood, I do not think a fit test would be needed. It is can, you handle the hood, some people have phobia's.
Filters for the respirators - for most, the pancake filter would be the best option. These filter the dust and fibers out of the air. For those that paint fumes aggravate allergies or are bothered by the fumes, you can get an organic filter that removes the chemicals. You will notice that over time, it becomes harder to get air or the pump motor is straining, this means it is past time to change the filter. And you must buy filters specific to your mask, they are not interchangable between brands.
I hope this helps. If you any other questions, you can reply or click on the email button.Kevin Arceneaux
Visit the Lone Wolf Activities for MS Trainsimulator at http://www.3dtrains.com
Many thanks to Uncle Dunc, Jamie Buxton and Kevarc for your thoughtful replies.
I look forward to being able to see & breathe; I guess if I have to shave my beard that'll be ok - a face covered in white whiskers just make me look older than I really am!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I have no doubt there are better masks out there. However, a poor mask worn consistently is better than a great mask hung on the wall was my point.
I think a column of clean air moving past the workshop is better then a dust cleaner. I have two windows and a fan blowing air out of the shop. This is not practical when it is cold outside, however. I use an Airmate visor for crazy-dusty work.
Frank
The Dust Bee Gone does not carry a NIOSH approval. Nor does the Resp-O-
Rater.
And, all bets are off it you have a beard and plan to use a nose/mouth type respirator. None of this type of mask is approved for use with beards. In the company I ran, folks were given a choice. Shave the beard or use a forced fresh air, full head respirator.Howie.........
The only way to remove dust from inside air is to exhaust the air to the outside.
It is the very small particles that cause the most damage - they are the ones that dust collectors and air cleaners leave.
>> The only way to remove dust from inside air is to exhaust the air to the outside.
You left out a word. The only cheap way to remove dust from inside air is to exhaust the air to the outside. And that's not cheap, either, if you have to pay a lot of money to heat the makeup air.
Thick and turgid? This guy must have a sideline writing porno.
I set up an old furnace blower motor to pump the dirty air outside. It also pumps out the hot air that accumulates in my garage workshop in Ariz.
I also switched to a Resp-O-Rator. It's kinda like a snorkle with a filter attached. I really like it because it just hangs around your neck and is easy to "put on" when I need it as well as just spitting the mouthpiece out of my mouth when I'm done. No frustating straps. It's a little hard to get used to though.
Dust can be a real problem so do all you can to eliminate it.
Gary
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