On numerous WW forums one can find the question “I want to buy the <ThisIsWhatICanAfford> contractor saw…”
The replies are always, “save your money for a Unisaw; the cabinet will last 3 lifetimes; it will cut 2 inch maple faster; etc, etc.” However, these arguments have yet to convince me that the cabinet is better than a contractor.
My short list for saws in this order are: General 50-185, ShopFox 1714, Griz 444Z. The Griz 1023S & ShopFox 1711 are on the long list.
Initial usage will be to furnish my new home with beds, end/dining/coffee/work/utility tables, chests, shelving, bookcases and the like. Don’t have a current interest or need to make kitchen cabinets. My keen interest is making boxes.
I do believe that I will be making use of full sheets of 3/4 ply and MDF.
Since I intend to also purchase a biscuit joiner, router, jointer, planer, drill press and possibly band saw along with all of the hidden cost tools like bits, measuring devises, and clamps, more clamps and still more clamps (plus the hundreds of things I don’t know about yet), I’d like to have some cash left for wood, mortgage, gas, cat food.
I’d like to hear convincing arguments as to why I should go the extra mile for the cabinet.
Thanks,
Burt
Replies
There are 3 reasons main reasons I would want a cabinet saw: vibration (less of), power and stability/ease of settings. The first 2 are obvious, the third refers to the fact that the tune-up settings are likely to hold longer on a cabinet saw and are way-the-heck easier to do on a cabinet saw.
That being said, not all of us can afford to buy a cabinet saw and still buy lumber! IMHO, given that you're not going to be ripping 4x4's all day, that kinda stuff, why not get a contractor's saw and have some $$ left for other tools and lumber.
If you're going to work alot with full sheets of plywood, etc., you're going to want longer rails (and cast iron wings). Keep in mind that the 1023S (much as I'd like to own one) comes with pretty short rails. The G0444Z can be fit with longer rails at a fairly reasonable price and you'd still have a wad of $$ left over. I have a friend who just got the 2HP General International contractor's saw with cast iron wings. Pretty darned nice! But almost as much as the 1023S.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Before you go out and buy ANY machine, I think you need to sit down and figure out what you REALLY need. All be it, the more machines the better, but, quality is better than quantity.
If I was to reset up my shop, with what I know now, heres my take on it: All in order of priority
Cabinet saw, left tilt(maybe with a good sliding table) Just installed a Jet slide table on my powermatic 66 about 3 weeks ago. The "left tilt" thing is open for debate with other posters to this site
Good set of chisels/planes. Learn to sharpen. They are worthless if not sharp
3hp routers(2 if you can afford them)
Planer 12" minimum- the bigger the better- get one that changes blades easily
Large CFM air compressor
Drill press. Bench top is ok. I don't use mine that much. Maybe buy the bandsaw first
Band saw. (amazing what a good sabre saw and patience will do in place of a bandsaw)
Shaper, and yes, before the "jointer". Again, the more the better. While your at it, look for a 3 wheel powerfeeder. Good routers can replace some operations on a shaper. But, nothing like a good quality molding/door run. Better choices in cutters
Dust collector
Kreg jig/other air tools/nailers
Vacuum press
Spray equiptment
Jointer (only if you have room for it) I like jointers, wished I had one at times, haven't had on in 15+ years. Just straight-lined 100 bf of 4/4 hit and miss alder on my table saw last week. Kinda-sorta wished I had on then, but not this week or the week before that
Now, brands names is another topic, but I would definetly consider Jet for most of the above machines
I spent the last 6 months studying the subject, and when it came down to it for me, the cabinet saw made since. I went and looked at the two types side by side. The things that jumped out at me were weight, dust collection ability, and fence quality. I also liked the fact that the cabinet saws have the trunions mounted to the cabinet, and the contractor saws have them mounted to the table top. It makes adjustments easier if the top can be moved easily. My Grizzly showed up dead on, but if I ever do need to adjust it will be easier. I kept looking for used unisaws and they would wind up being just as expensive as a new Grizzly. After analyzing the thing to death, I bought the 1023slx. It is great, and the 7' rails are fantastic. So far it has cut every thing I have thrown at it without issue (I've only had it a few weeks). The cost for saw & mobile bases delivered was $1,300. If budget is the biggest concern, the hybrids have been getting a lot of reviews lately. The 1023s with standard rails can be had for about the same as some contractor saws. For me, I wanted that ability to handle the plywood, and the 7' rails make it easy. Lastly, what ever you decide on, don't sacrifice price for a good fence. Good luck.
I got along on a Ryobi BT3000 for 16 years or so. Two in fact. Dad snagged my first one when I brought it home to help him. I built furniture and used the saw on site for trim work. I did have to check it now and then for square but I made set up jigs to take care of that.
I own a Grizzly 1023S now, right tilt. Absolutely love the saw.
FWIW. Buy what you can afford, but buy quality. You can get along for quite a while with a good quality saw. If your going to cut a lot of sheet goods then I would make or get a really good straight edge guide. Make a sacrificial cutting table to cut your sheet goods on. It will save your back in the long run.
Enjoy,
Len
You can not only furnish your home but several others with a cabinet saw. And you can do the precision work required to do fine box work. Table saws, bandsaws, any saw only gets you close to the final dimensions in fine work. From there you'll be sneaking up on the final dimension and surface quaility with a plane, planer, jointer, sandpaper etc. So in the end, the results can be the same, cabinet or contractor.
Sure it would be more pleasant to use a heavier saw with less vibration. I'd love to have a Unisaw or Powermatic cabinet saw but my 80's model Delta Contractors saw has been too good to cast aside for the quantity of pieces I produce each year (maybe 10). I can't justify the expense. I should add that my Delta came with a Unifence and I added an Osbourne mitre gauge and link belt, so it isn't a purely stock saw.
That said, if I were a lot younger and had a lot more money, I'd buy a cabinet saw from the git go. But probably a used saw.
Ian
If I have learned anything around these forums, it is this: what works for one person may not necessary work for another.
Personally, I am a great believer in cabinet saws, for all the reasons stated earlier in the thread.
Reflecting price, priorities, and how you will use the saw -- it sounds like you have decided a contractor saw is the best for your situation. And I would say, by all means, go ahead and buy one.
There are great numbers of people around here who have worked for years with a contractor's saw and are perfectly happy with it.
You may well find yourself in this group; and if after a time, you want to move on to a cabinet saw, just sell this one, and apply those funds to the new saw.
The only proviso I would offer is buy a top-of -line saw that will maintain its resale value. Deltas always do, but I don't know if that is the case with Grizzly.
Good luck with your decision.............
I had 2 big cabinet saws throughout my career and found they were way under utilized. The only thing -- only thing -- I ever use my new smaller table saw for is ripping long boards and sizing up the occasional sheet of 3/4 plywood. With this kind of use I found the big cabinet saw constantly buried under a pile of junk because I seldom used it and it was always in my way.
Figure out what you will actually use and how you will use it. Some people will use a table saw for 101 different things (like cutting tenons) and those people should spend big money on a fancy saw, especially if you plan on cutting up acres of plywood on a regular basis. Most furniture making does not require a "lot" of table saw work, it just depends on your style and the type of thing you are making. I personally don't get many commisions for furniture made with sheet goods, a few but not many.
Food for thought; if I have a really long or thick board to dimension I usually pull it outside and sit it on saw-horses and take a circular saw to it. Combined with a straight edge it makes very nice cuts. The same thing applies to plywood. I think I paid $30 for the circ saw many years ago and I made the saw horses myself. This releases me from needing a big table saw with a massive outfeed table just for occasional use.
Over the last 15 years I've furnished my house (with furniture), and am in the process of remodeling using a Delta Contractors Saw with a 30" Bessie fence.
I've also built furniture and kitchen cabs for sale on numerous occasions.
The only shortcoming I've found with the saw is the power in cutting any stock over 6/4. You MUST use a thin kerf blade for these ops.
Your list should also include a good drill press.
If you dont go the extra mile now you may find yourself going three later.
C
>>"If you dont go the extra mile now" etc., etc. Trite little sayings like this don't address reality. For most of us, $$ is a finite resource, and for some it's way the heck more finite than for others. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Woodworking is not a hobby for me. It is what I do. Every time I stretch to get the better tool I am never disappointed and the tool pays for itself with its performance.
Since you're a professional, obviously going the extra mile quality-wise is a money-saving proposition in the long run. What makes sense for you, though, may not make sense for the hobbyist, as regards a specific tool. I look forward to your contributions here, no doubt about it, as the more pros we have pitching in, the more valuable the forum is to everyone. I still stand by what I said earlier, though, about trite sayings. They don't address the specifics of a given situation, don't provide any information, and aren't helpful. Hardly seem worth the bother of clicking on "Reply", typing and then clicking "Post" and "Continue" <g>forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Balcan -
If I were to try to make the most convincing arguement for a cabinet saw vs a contractor's saw it would be on the basis of sawdust control. In my opinion .... *MY* opinion - others may feel otherwise - the contractor's saw's have sawdust control that ranges somewhere between innefective and non-existant. There are some models on the market that have made strides in helping but even with my Unisaw and this big dust sucker there's still dust floating in the air. Would be far worse with a contractor's saw I'm thinking.
Other than that, like several others have suggested, you really have to examine what you're doing currently and what you plan on doing in a few years. Chances are you can utilize a contractor's saw to good advantage and move to the cabinet saw at a later time if you find you need 1)more power 2)more precision and/or 3)more stability. Keep in mind you can do small things on a big machine a lot easier than you can do big things on a small machine. The inherant design of the contractor's saw with the trunion mounting does not lend itself to the kind of rigidity associated with cabinet saw. And lastly, one factor I consider (not the highest priority by any means) is the weight of the machine. With large stationary tools like table saws, the last thing I want is to have it move around on me when I'm trying to push a full sheet of plywood or MDF through it.
Just my thoughts.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I used a couple of different dumb contractors saws for 15 years without issue, and so can you, but......
1. Forestgirl's point is well taken about support for the large sheets of ply. Cabinet saws have wider wings. Unless you are going to build some supports or change out the rails, cross-cutting wide pieces is going to involve two persons. With my contractors saw, I just toughed it out.
2. You will need some rear support as well, so buy the HTC rear roller table that folds into your contractors saw. This is a must for either saw, and is a big plus for sheet work.
3. For your work, motor size probably won't be an issue, and honestly, a contractor's saw is safer, because it won't kick back with such force. Instead your liable to bind the saw blade and trip the breaker.
4. Saftey is an issue. My Unisaw has a large shutoff that I work with my knee, so when I get in trouble, I just kick my left knee into the switch and the saw shuts down.
5. Trunions. I hate them. No, there not a fancy vegetable, but how the saw arbor is attached to the table. They have a life span, and adjusting them is a complete PITA. If I were to buy another contractors saw, I would install the PALS set up. Makes adjusting the trunions easier. Cabinet saws don't have trunions.
You will find out within a couple of years whether your decision was the correct one, but there is certainly no harm in going with a contractors saw.
For my money, pick Delta. They stock more parts and have better techs and better customer service.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Buy the best you can afford and as more as you can afford. I started with lower quality "stuff" and often regretted each lower quality item--most have now been replaced with high quality. Note that high quality is not necessarily the best quality but holds alignments, has replacement parts available, lasts, holds alignments, stable, holds alignments, etc. Get the picture? You can cut wood using a hacksaw but why would you? Woodworking needs accuracy -- even on framing and rough carpentry.
Luck to you.
That General 50-175/185 is one heck of a saw. I don' think you would be disappointed with in the least.
When I was shopping for my first saw three years ago, I had the opportunity to see the Genreal, Delta, Powermatic and Jet contractor saws side by side at my local pro shop. The General stood above the other three in design, fit and finish.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
My choice is a one and a half hp direct drive Craftsman that I bought in 1980.
I am an intermediate in skills and threoughout the years have upgraded many of my machines, when it came to buying a new table saw I added a VEGA fence, a Delta Tenon sled and an Incra 3000 miter to my old saw.
Initially I made the decision for what I percieve is safety sake. I work in hard wood and have never had a task I couldn't do comfortably. However If a rushed a cut the rpms will slow down. My concern with a morepowerful saw is kick back. I find my saw's cutting rate comfortable - and I can't force a cut. It seem after all these years that a lower hoursepower unit may be safer. The money spent on the saw inprovements has been very helpful and I am happy with the what I have for the investment.
I've heard the less HP is safer argument before, but it is really a fallicy. When the blade slows down it becomes more "catchy" kind of like a slow speed on a router or shaper. I am sure that cabinet saws are safer in every respect. I spent a lot of time on both and feel a lot more secure on a cabinet saw.
Mike
please excuse my spelling.
Having been bit a few times, I respectfully disagree. If a contractors saw kicks back, you can stop with a push stick. It simply doesn't have the horsepower to do much. If a cabinet saw kicks back, it will ram that push stick into the palm of your hand and perhaps out the other end. They are very powerfull, and the best advice is to stand clear.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Hi, That is exactly what I thought. My Craftman table saw is rated 1.5 hp, and I bet thats peek with actual hp somewhat lower. I would imagen the kick back from an actual 3 hp cabnet saw would likely throw the wood back with at least three times the force. Since I have never had a situation where I was undepowered - even working with 2.5 inch cherry. I don't see the need to risk a huge kick back of a more powerful saw.
Regards,
Jim
Hi Mike,
I understand. However the throwback from a three horse could be a much faster projectile, at least that was my thought in staying withe the light powered machine.
Jim
Balcan,
One point that I haven't seen mentioned: if you do not have a dedicated shop and have to "store" your tools, the cabinet saw or a hybrid takes less room because the motor and supports are not protruding from the rear of the machine. Personally, I would size your needs by the power requirements to safely rip the thickest stock you intend to use. My experience with furniture is that working with 12/4 stock is not uncommon, particularly when sizing bed posts. 8/4 stock is a very common dimension for furniture. Before I got my Grizzly, I upgraded an 30-year old craftsman 1hp 10" contractor saw to a 2hp capacity with a link belt and while it would handle the 8/4 hard maple fairly well, 12/4 was really beyond its capacity. Of course, over time the table top cupped beyond the point of redemption.
Another perspective. Whatever you decide, enjoy the process and savor the outcome.
Doug
I checked the local stores for the General. Although one store is an "authorized dealer," they said they don't have any General saws in stock nor will they have any in the future. Woodcraft does not stock nor will they order a ShopFox. If I want to buy locally my options are any Delta, any Jet and a PM64A.
I ran a search for Jet JTAS-10 but found posts that were 5 years old. At that time the posters' comments were negative. Same for Delta and Grizzly. A lot has changed since then so I don't know where any of these tools are at with the WW community.
I do see many positive posts regarding the Grizzly, almost out of proportion with other saws. My only reservation about the Griz is the delivery process. Seems like 1 of 3 get sent back because of shipping damage.
So my short list in no particular order is Delta, Jet, PM64A, 1023. You guys have twisted my arm so I will be looking at cabinet saws from this point on. I know the Unisaw is highly regarded. Can I hear recommendations for the others?
Many thanks for the excellent replies in this message!
Burt
Burt,
I went with the 1023 for $795 plus shipping, short rails, right tilt. It's all I'll ever need and greatly exceeded my expectations. There is a nice tip in the latest issue of FWW for cutting big sheets of ply with a short rail setup. I cut a lot of 16/4 maple, oak and poplar....no problem.
Burt
I would not hesitate to buy off the 'net from any reputable source. A General or Delta or Jet in the box is the same at a Woodcraft or coming off the back of a Yellow Freight.
Unless you buy from a pro shop, customer service at a local retailer is about the same as with Amazon or Lowes or Home Depot.
I bought an entire Jet shop ($6,500+) over the internet in 2001 and of the 13 items, only one error._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
I haven't seen many internet vendors offering table saws. Can you supply a few urls?
Thanks,
Burt
http://www.powertools.com/WdWkMac/Tablesaw/50-185.asp?var1=50-185
There are others, try http://www.general.ca/english/main.html for the General stuff._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Bert,
About 8 months ago I upgraded from a 30" Jet contractor to a new 30" Powermatic 66. The difference was less than I thought. Heavier, more power, less vibration, stronger fence; but not THAT much more. It did not allow me to do anything I couldn't do before, and it did not make me a better woodworker.
I would tell you to not spend a lot of money on a new cabinet saw. However, I think you should consider a used cabinet saw for the same price. It will be a little more fun to use and the resale value later on will pay for itself.
Rgards,
dan
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled