Just curious, how many designers use the “Golden Ratio” and geometric proportions when custom designing furniture?
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I use them always..........always.
Read "The Power of Limits" by Gyorgi Doczi. It brought me as a designer into a larger room. The understanding of proportion is key to pleasing the eye and deeper subconcious appreciation of form. Plus, it gives mathematical proof to your design instincts. I am a prime number designer with a love for the spiral form of nature and the golden mean dimension shows me the way. Aloha. mike
Not me.
Usually, other factors predominate (the space available, the materials available, the overall design priorities, the customer's own ideas).
On the few occasions I've gone to a golden ratio approach, I haven't liked the result.
Take small boxes. Golden ratio dimensions just look wrong to me - I prefer (and so have my customers, from long experience) a squarer, lower form factor.
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Malcolm,
It was recently suggested to me to use the Golden Ratio. I make small boxes, and have always just "eyeballed" them. The largest I've ever made is my current one and it's 7" by 22". I didn't use the Golden Ratio to construct it and the woodworker (pro w/ 20 yrs) thinks it looks great. Are small boxes just "too small" for this ratio to work? I did the math and, on paper, it seems it would be odd shaped. Can you elaborate? Thanks.
Robin
> Can you elaborate? <
No, don't think I can.
The proportions I use have evolved over a period of many years, and after making many containers.
They are squarer than golden ratio proportions, and not as tall. The process has not been particularly thought-out, and the 'ideal' varies a bit, but looking back at photos, and boxes I own and the family owns, there are some that I like and some that I don't, much.
The ones that I like (and ... 'if it sounds right it is right' ... that my customers have liked) tend to have remarkably consistent dimensions - regardless of size.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Aloha,
I'm getting into this pretty late, but let me try to answer your question about the golden ratio as applied to your work. If your box is 22 x 7 then one-half of 22 is 11. 11 divided by 7 is 1.57, the golden ratio is 1.62; pretty close. Essentially what you have is two GR's side by side.
One of the interesting things about the GR is that it can be parts of a rectangle. For example, if you have a rectangle that is 1 x 1.62 and you cut a 1 x 1 square off one end, you end up with a rectangle that is 1 x .62 or a ratio of 1.62 (1 divided by .62).
The GR is essentially what we are used to seeing in our envronment, kind of like the fact that we can all sing " do, re, me, fa, sol, la, te, do" because this is the basis the western world uses for music and it sounds right to us. Go to China, however, and their music sounds discordant to us but right to them.
The GR is not the only shape that looks right to us, the cube is another and can be combined into two cubes and still looks right. Triangular relationships aren't used much in woodwork, but are used a lot in artistic painting.
If it looks right, it probably is.
"Mistakes are but an opportunity for fresh design"
24329.3 in reply to 24329.1
New Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Yeah, and most of them are over here in OZ! ; )
Sorry, you've lost me mate!http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Actually I was having a dig about your tag line: "0.06% of the world's population are Kiwis"
Still I shouldn't complain, we got Russel Crowe. Actually, where do I complain?
PS: sorry to be so obscure!
Got you!
Russel Crowe was an Aussie until he clobbered that wait person in New York, then, suddenly, he became a Kiwi!
We noticed!!
I lost my tagline in the bloody silly change over and have been too miffed to put it back!
Cheershttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Kiwis.. Ya talk about good advertisements from Down-Under...
... Gee us USA folks will buy ANYTHING!
I didn't know what it was until last year when a friend who's an engineer asked about it. We went through the house and found I used it, or was close, on most of my projects....I'd always kind of eyeballed proportions until it was pleasing.
My designs are almost always based on the space available and the customers needs (wants). If something looks really goofy to me, I'll suggest alternatives but it's the customers decision. My rationalization is that "I can't see it from my house" - lol
Geometric proportions, frequently; Golden Ratio, hardly ever. If I were designing spirals, that would be the way to go.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Jelly,
There are many useful "rules of thumb" for furniture design, among which phi is but one, albeit one that garners a great deal of well-deserved attention.
I don't use "the golden ratio" in a conscious or premeditated aspect of my designs, but understanding phi (among other design principles - and my own preferences and proclivities), allows me to consider why a particular design works, or doesn't look quite right, and can help me expedite design improvements.
I think phi in furniture design is rather like salt in cooking: I don't design recipes with salt as a main ingredient, but without it, the food would be bland and tasteless. And, like the many different kinds of salt (e.g., regular iodized table salt, kosher salt, gray salt, etc.), each with their own unique attributes and uses under particular circumstances, there are several different design arrows in my quiver (to mix metaphors horribly), one of which is phi.
I hope this is the kind of feedback you were after,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
the "Golden Ratio"
What I want to make...
How much money I got...
What wood do I want to use...
I'm usually off on at least one of them!
I use it but only as a starting point. I like the one response about it being salt in cooking! To me, the design is about how everything looks and feels to the eye. The customer's eye in particular.
Kell
O.K. I'm a registered architect and furniture designer. I studied all that stuff in university, use it ? never... not on purpose anyway. One of the first things I learned designing here in Italy was the old saying "Paga l'occhio", the eye pays. Meaning that if it looks right it's better than it being right. If you want to trace this back to the Greeks look at entasis on Greek columns which they used to make columns "look right" . Paga l'occhio.
Philip
here in Italy was the old saying "Paga l'occhio",.. Old Chicago here.. If Grandma said "Paga l'occhio", we knew we were in BIG trouble!
It is my understanding that the human eye likes to see things that are "perfect", i.e. squares, circles and equilateral triangles. Any variations on this can make a piece seem to have something wrong.
Included in this list could be figures that follow the golden ratio. For example, if a rectangle has sides in the ratio of 1 to 1.618, then the human eye may consider it "perfect" - it just looks better. All of the respondents above that say they don't use PHI, still say that they just make it "look good". I would challenge them to go back and determine the ratios in the piece and I bet that they would find PHI somewhere.
If you're a newbie like me and have no formal design training, then I would recommend using PHI (with moderation). It can help take the guesswork out of your design and let you focus on the actual woodwork.
I guess that by phi you mean the ratio of dia to circumference? If not, I will sound even more off the wall.
In the first few intervals of the Big Bang, before Time started, the fundamental forces of the universe separated, and the value of phi was thus ordaned. It is a measure of the shape of space, and the diameter to circumference ratio is a consequence of that. A little less or a little more in the value of phi, Creation would have ceased...
I really need to do something productive right about now. Like take out the garbage.
HarryD
Nope, the ratio of diameter to circumferance is PI or 3.14159.
PHI is the irrational number 1.61803...This number has so many unique properties that have had great influences in numerous fields, not just mathematics.
The "golden ratio" is the ratio of 1:1.618. If a rectangle has sides of 1' wide and 1.618' long then it follows the "golden ratio".
Check out the following for more information...
http://plus.maths.org/issue22/features/golden/
You might also want to check out "The Golden Ratio - The story of Phi, the world's most astonishing number" by Mario Livio (pub. Broadway ISBN 0-7679-0816-3)-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
LOL,
Go ahead, take out the garbage, you have confused "phi" with "pi" two different things, neither connected to the big bang.
HJarryD,
before Time started?
Metod
You can find "Phi" almost anywhere. The ratio of a mile to a kilometer for example. That does not mean it is important.I tried very hard to design using "Phi." But is it the ratio ofthe outside dimensions of the case,the outside dimensions of the door frame on the case, or
the dimensions of the panel in the door.The Washington Monument deviates a bit from "Phi." I think it looks great.You can charge someone for teaching them a rule of thumb. You cannot charge them if you say there are none.
To answer your questions, it could be just one or it could be all. It could be the ratio of the width and length of a door. It could be the ratio of the mullions (sp?) on a window. It could be the ratio of the apron to the table top. There's many uses and with any tool it can be overused to the point of looking silly and reduntant.
Of course, you want things to look good in relation to the space that it's going in. In the Arts and Crafts style, PHI may not work because the horizontals are elongated.
Have you ever noticed that a common wall width is around 12'-13', this is 8' x 1.618. This just looks normal to us.
For a built-in unit, you may follow the shape of the room for the entire piece, but your door and panels may follow the golden ratio. I like to use it when I can't relate a small section of a piece back to the unit as a whole.
A famous musician, whose identity escapes me now, said a similar thing with regard to what makes good music. He said, "if it sounds good it is good."
Could it be Duke Ellington?It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing....Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
It could be. It was someone of his fame and era.
Wop,
Art is always my biggest challenge, I believe it's one of those things you can't be taught. You either have it, or you don't. The problem is, what may look good to one pair of eyes, may look bad to another.
I'll never forget my first comeback piece, after a layoff from woodwork of more than 20 years. It looked perfect in my mind, each individual piece when finished looked soooo nice, and then when I put the whole thing together, to my surprise, it looked disgusting. Everyone said it's pretty, but I think they were just being kind. Finally, it made me realize that woodwork is real easy, but making something special, takes careful planning and lots of design effort. That's not easy for me.
I designed and built two houses, the first was perfect, the second was a big 6000 sq ft double story. I got the plans technically correct, but it just did not look right. Eventually the city Architect convinced me to have the plans modified by someone he knew. This was a 28 year old Architect from Belgium, he was exceptional and after a days work, the same design was turned into a masterpiece. That's natural talent, he was born with.
I kind of lean on the "golden rectangle", but bend the rules to suit the purpose. After all the Greeks were the masters of an era. I guess you Romans were too...
>>After all the Greeks were the masters of an era. I guess you Romans were too...<<
..and they "evaporated" because they were "existencial hot air"?
Metod
Now, now, now. Let's behave here, I know you Romans protect your artistic treasures and I love Italy. Times change you know, the Italians use to be masters at cycling, and now we have a fella over here with one #### playin with ya.
What went wrong?
Actually Savoldelli won the Giro D' Italia this year and Simoni was second at 28", in fact 7 out of the first ten were Italian and not one American. As to your Onesy ,yeah he's a player all right, with the excuse that treatments and medicines have unbalanced his system standard anti- doping tests don't work.
Philip
Philip,
I'm just joking with you and will joke some more, but wasn't it Pantani, who got kicked out for doping?
We are getting off topic, but I think in a previous post you mentioned that you are riding, so am I. I went from amateur to pro and back to amateur then vet and I actually raced in Italy in the Venito region recreationally in July of 2000. I'm out of it now, totally, but think we both know the sport.
Will be interesting to see who will be the 2006 champion, Ulrich, or probably someone else. Won't be surprised if we see a new American, with guys like Chris Charmichael coaching the sport.
One thing I have seen mentioned yet as to box dimensions relating to Phi, is speaker enclosures. It is generally thought that using this when designing a speaker enclosure (of which I've designed and built many) will result in a enclosure that minimizes standing waves. This results in a more naturally sounding, less "boomy" enclosure. Particularly in bass enclosures. I don't believe this is by accident.
Never thought about that. Most subs I've seen and my NHT are cubes. Now I'm wondering if there's a connection to the band PHIsh?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I've also noticed many of the subs come in square boxes. Probably for asthetics, and I'm sure there are many other ways to design around the standing wave problem such as electronic equalization, box damping, etc. I've also noticed that a lot of the subs I've auditioned tend to have a rather "boomy" sound to them, although this is a highly subjective opinion based upon listening tests only. Lots of good info on this subject in Vance Dickasons book "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook". P.S. I love your screen name Elcoholic.
Boomy is an understatement. Great for movies where sh*t blows up, but not so good for music. The controller that came with my NHT has a dial as well as a normal or video contour switch. For DVDs it's on video & about 25%. In music mode I drop the SW output on the rcvr to -3 to -5 sop it only picks up the extended low frequencies. The NHT towers have bottom firing woofers shooting into a slate hearth so they really don't need the sub for music. You know the part in J"urasic Park where the T-Rex is coming and the puddles shake with each footstep? I can do that to a glass of beer if I crank the sub.
Glad you like the screen name, you should see the '65 ElCamino it was based on. I'd post a pix if I could, but for somereason I can't anymore.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Well, actually all the pros and alot of the amature are doped to the legal limit. The speculation on Pantani is that some one managed to slip him something to put him over the limit and then turned him in.
I never went pro the most I ever could have gotten to was a gregario and "controlled substances" are not my bag. I raced seniors (30-45 years old) for a few years but found that racing against guys who got into the sport at 30 and still want to prove something ,can get ugly. They were even at the level of knocking you over on purpose and I had enoughof bad falls years ago, so I quit.
Ulrich, man now there is one I love to see lose, don't know why but I just don't like him.Anyway way off topic.
Philip
Philip,
I don't disagree with your point, only to add that an educated eye sees differently than an uneducated one. You need only compare a rustic piece of furniture to its city bred cousin to see that. What "looks right" to an individual can change with time, as one's knowledge (experience, education) changes.
I thought the first cabriole legs I designed and worked out looked great...they don't look so hot today, some 35 years later.
Regards,
Ray
The Golden Mean can be useful and attractive. It can serve as a rough guide but you have to manipulate proportions, visual weight and scale to make much functional furniture that fits its environment. Take, for instance, a desk. Because the height is relatively fixed, every desk you'd design would end up being the same size if you wanted the same proportions as the golden rectangle. Now picture that desk in a small 10 X 12 room with 8' ceilings and again in much bigger and more grand space with very high ceilings. I don't live in a World where such rigidity is appropriate or desirable.
I use it when I can in designing cabinets and other furniture. What's nice about using it is that the pieces come out looking better than if you didn't use it, because with it the proportions just "seem right." It can be subtle, but it happens. That's why the ancients recognized it and used it.
I use it as the first starting option, but aren't a slave to it. There are many objects that are considered beautiful that deviate from the golden ratio. Examples are: the Washington monument, Chrysler building (any skyscraper for that matter), most grandfather clock cases. IMHO you won't go far wrong with the architectural guide of "Form Follows Function." Put in the opposite terms, if you want to build something light and airy, the golden ratio might be too blocky.
Good luck on your project,
John,
Even if the overall piece doesn't follow the golden ratio, ie a tall clock case, which probably follows one of the greek orders, the golden ratio can be used to porportion elements within the overall structure. For instance adjacent moldings and reveals can be related using it as can graduated drawer heights or shelf spacing in a shaker chimney cabinet. I haven't laid one out, but I would suspect that an eliptical cove molding using the golden ratio for it's axis might be real close too. Given that the golden ratio even shows up in the human skeleton it's no wonder that it looks natural to our eye.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
John, I believe you have hit on the crux of the issue. Breaking a seemigly non golden mean object into its parts reveals its connection to and heritage of the golden mean, especially the pleasing ones. Gothic, Etruscan, Roman, and Greek all have their derivation the trick is finding the number of segments they are broken into. Prime numbers are key here. The Romans used 11 or 13 segments commonly the Etruscans were more into the ornate with 23 or 29 segments. The smallest part was 1/11 or 1/29 or whatever the breakdown was. I recommend trying this as a design concept sometime and maybe then stand back and marvel at the wondrous beauty of nature, from, balance and, yes, math. Aloha, mike
John,
You put that very well. I rate myself fairly good with tools but really labour on design. Using the golden ratio has long been my starting point on any piece and I recently found Garth Graves Furniture Design to be the best explanation of its application, very close to your lines. I recently found the principle particularly useful in copying a theme from a tall wardrobe to a matching squat vanity.
Sean
I always check my design against the ratio, using 62% as a general ideal. I'm not locked into this but I feel a bit better if I'm close.
http://woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=shop&file=articles_546.shtml
Tom
the "Golden Ratio"
To me that is a Brunette with a great smile and a 'bit' overweight!
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