Hi Folks,
I’m in the process of final shaping/sanding of a set of 4 cabriole legs for a piece I’m making. This being a somewhat tedious process for me anyway, I am curious to know if any of you folks have any tips/tricks that you use to ensure they are all the same.
I’m talking about the sanding of the curved parts, not the post block portion of the leg, after they have been shaved :>); in particular the knee portion.
One method I use is to the place each pair, on the flat side where the knee blocks will be added later, beside each other on a flat surface (benchtop). Then mark the high spots from one to the other using a sharp pencil. This gives me a guage line to see how much material I have to remove. I use this method on the both adjacent flat sides working on one leg and then the other.
Another method I use when sanding is to let them get a bit of a tan first so the sanding portions show up well. Plus I think tanned legs look better. :>)
I like to sand them outside where the light is better than in the woodshop. Although this is working OK it is taking an inordinate amount of time and am looking for ways that might shorten the process.
Any tips/trick would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob,
I've built two sets of cabriole legs so I don't speak from a lot of experience (although I've always been a leg man), but there are two tips I read on this matter that helped me.
The first one is at the very beginning when you are cutting out the profiles on the band saw, cut as close to the line as you can. But don't cross over the line! Also keep your cut as smooth as possible. After that, there isn't a whole lot of material left to remove. Unfortunately, you are past that point.
The other tip was to work all four legs together. Whatever you do to one, do the same operation to the other three.
I don't sand very much. I do all the shaping with spokeshave, rasp, files & card scraper. Finally I go over them with a piece of "shark skin" (3M pad).
One of the questions I always get is, "How did you get all four to look the same?"
Tells me I must have done something right.
FWIW,
-Chuck
Thanks Chuck,
I think my bandsaw technique could use some fine tuning I'm sure. Of course the lack of a spokeshave doesn't add much to the mix either I'm sure.
I appreciate your help,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/22/2008 1:08 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi Bob,
Don't let your angst get the best of you on this. Those legs don't have to be alike; they just have to look alike. It is hand work after all, and slight variations are not unexpected (just ask Adam).
As has already been said, if you laid them all out from the same template, and sawed them out close to the line, you should be alright when they are separated by the length of the case, or against the wall. As my momma used to say, "Anybody looking that close, is looking too dam' close!"
It is interesting that the human eye can discern a variation of a thousandth of an inch between two boards in a glue line, and then just assumes that the legs at the corners of a case are identical, as long as they have some resemblance to one another.
Ray
Thanks Ray,
I here what yur sayin and it sounds like I need more practice on the BS (bandsaw that is :>)! It will save me some time in the long run.
They're coming along real nice and they aint no angst here. I'm probably being to anal about it but this being my first Queen I want her to look good. It's may be a Lataxe thang as I know how much he likes these fancy legs. :>)
I'll keep plugging away and put some pics together for your discerning look. Got all the whiskers shaved off them!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ray ,
So they don't have to be alike , only look a like . My Father wood of called that double talk Ray .
It's those obsessive folks that feel the need for symmetry in all things , they eye ball down the front to see if all lines up and inspect with desire to find fault and only too willing to do so.
dusty ,da rained on
Well said Ray,
Your post reminds Me of Q&A session I attended by Sam Maloof. He was eager to point out that no two chairs were exactly the same, although they appeared to be.
I hope your right Ray.. I intend to post pics in the Gallery (if I can slip through the white trash patrol) of a chest I should finish waxing today or no latter than tomorrow. I'm hoping that nobody will notice a few of the bent 16 penny nails that wouldn't go all the way in. I just couldn't get them all straight enough to get past the bend on a few.
The $29.95 Earl Schiebs (includes bondo) paint job has most of the other rough spots covered though. "Earl is the man" for sure in my neck of the woods. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/23/2008 10:35 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Remember the FWW article with the cabinet that had a bent nail in the front? If you call it "art" you might be able to get away with it. Or, you can say they are clothes hooks.
I recall Mr Scheib's ads, back in the day. "Any car, any color!" And for another $5, maybe we'll even mask off the glass...
Ray
Earl Scheib. 29 bucks. LMAO.
Art.. you may be onto something there, Ray. :>)
Earl Schieb's paint jobs were $29.95 back in the 60's. They did charge a little extra for bondo and masking it off. But.. you were allowed to do that work before you took it in to get "shot" in the paint booth if you so desired. Usually around $60 for the deluxe job. ha.. ha...
I went to see the movie "Physco" with some HS friends and of course we were wise arse's as most teen-agers. When Norman was painting the ladies car out in the shed with a paint brush after the shower scene.. I yelled out, "Earl Schieb's".. That got a roaring laugh from the entire crowd in the theater. Boy's will be boy's...
Regards...
Sarge..
Ray,
After working on them some more I found that a good way to keep them alike was to use one to transcripe high spots onto the other (by placing them side by each), working in pairs - front pair then back pair.
Am developing a pretty deft hand with the files and homemade fids too. I must go back to Kings article for refinement mebbe. I fashoined my own sans a lathe.
While working on them last night a farmer on a tractor was passing by and stopped by. He asked me, "What in hell are you making"? to which I responded "making some legs for the Queen".
He said I need to make sure I dovetail her drawers!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Homemade fid? You planning on splicing them together? Making tables, or cables?!
Ray
Ray,
Doncha remember King Heiples FWW article on his turned sanding fids?
I think they'd be great for shaping/sanding thangs like QA legs no? Especially in them curvy places alongside and towards the back of the knee. Different sizes and ya wouldn't need one o' them fancy oscillatn spinder sanduhs.
I jus ate a bag o' M&M peanuts and now I got the heebie jeebies with all this pent up energy!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Nope, I don't remember King, but I have started an end-splice with a crown knot. That count?
Here's something like I am familiar with. Teaching knots and splicing as scoutmaster, you learn some pretty arcane stuff. I ended up buying a copy of The Ashley Book of Knots, the last word on the subject.
http://www.fid-o.com/the_fid-o_splicing_tool.htm
Ray
Shiver me timbers, that's a landlubber's toy ;). Get hold of a couple of hand-forged cast steel marline spikes and you can splice wire cables!
Jim
Jim,
The few encounters I've had with steel cable lead me to believe that I'd best stay with sisal or polypro. It's a lot more cooperative.
Ray
I should have said wire rope rather than steel cable -- for that you have to use a form of whipping. You're right about wire rope being uncooperative. You have to hold it in a vice and the right tools are critical. I learned when I was a lineman from a ship's bo'sun on oil tankers. Whenever he fancied a spell on land he'd sign up for a few months as a lineman's mate. Hydro towers are pretty much rigged like ships when the cables are being strung and you need splices and knots everywhere. He had a boxed set of tools-- flat spike, round spike, nippers and tucker. Unfortunately he took them with him when he went back to sea. Since I was fool enough to learn from him I got stuck with the job whenever a hawser broke. I tried everything from files to eight inch nails, but nothing worked like a spike. A morning doing that and my hands were raw meat. It was a relief to get back up a tower.
I don't think I'd fancy splicing a hard modern synthetic rope. A well-used sisal or manila was soft enough that you didn't really need tools other than a knife.
Jim
Ray,
King Heiple wrote an article in FWW #136 a while back about what he called sanding fids. Picture in your mind one o' your knot tying fids with a turned handle and the tapered part enveloped with sandpaper.
I made some using a disc/belt sander to make the taper, but sans a handle as I found that the handle geets (Lataxesm) in the way sometimes. Wrapping the business end with sandpaper can be a PITP (pain in the patoot - a Rayism).
Perhaps a long lost cousin of your knot tying fids; although those were originally used by sailmakers for stretching holes in sails, or something like that.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=2590
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
It is a little known (totally unknown, actually, til just now) fact that cobblers used fids to adjust their handmade shoes for wearers' corns and bunions. Thus the old saying, "if the shoe fids, wear it."
Old time sailors would often use the blunt end of their fid to grind herbs in making home remedies for sniffles and sneezes. The resulting concoction was often wrapped in a cloth around the sufferer's neck. Thus: "Fid a cold, scarf a fever."
The sailors who were most adept at splicing and ornamental knotwork were (due to their dexterity) frequently accomplished musicians, especially on the violin. Somehow the two skills were mixed in the mists of time, and the nautical term became associated with the musician: "fiddler".
And finally, the fid's resemblance to a certain part of the male anatomy, has led to the term for when a wife or girlfriend wanders, from the in-ability of the object in question: in-fid-elity.
Ray, un fid for service
Ray,
I have to say that your mind has to truly be the sharpest tool in your woodshop.
Either that or you have found a substance with the ability to hone it to a fine edge! :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
My mind isn't that sharp. It's just really, really small.
Ray
Ray,
Heh, heh, heh, small.................
Getting ready to make the sides/ends of the case to go with the ladies legs. I'm planning on mortising them into the post blocks the way Randall O'Donnell did on his Curly Cherry Highboy FWW #117. I'm sort of using his drawings as a guideline and thinking of gluing only the bottom tenons and let the tops expand/contract. This should allow me to glue the knee blocks to the post and the sides/ends.
I am thinking of making the top 2 tenons so that they float in the mortises on their top ends. In other words, suppose the top two mortises are 2" long x ¼" thick x ¾" deep. I would make the tenons say 1 7/8" long x ¼" thick x ¾" long leaving a 1/8" gap at the top of the tenon for wood movement. Does this make sense to you?
Maybe my mind is way too large!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You didn't say how wide the ends are, but you have the right idea. Be aware tho, that if there is a top, or molding, attached to the ends, it will want to bow up/ be pulled down, as the ends swell and shrink. The ideal situation is to have a front to back rail/drawer guide/kicker mortised between the legs at their top, inside corners to attach the case's top to. Then make the ends under-wide so when they swell, it will only close up the crack. The gaps might be covered by an under-top molding, or shadowed by a wide overhang on the top.
Ray
Ray,
My thinking is to attach the top only to the ends, front and back and not the post blocks. The top and ends will be free to expand/contract. The ends will be ~ 21" wide, including apron.
Using Randall O'Donnells Curly Cherry Highboy as a guideline. I noticed that he pinned the end mortises into the post blocks with riven oak pins. I only plan to pin the bottom mortises/tenons.
Thanks for your help,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yah, Bob,
What I'm saying is that if the top is attached to the ends, and they shrink below the tops of the posts, the posts' ends will tend to push the corners of your top "up", as the ends pull the top down.
Ray
Ray,
A little duh has come, to hopefully pass for me. I need to read your responses more carefully.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You are welcome, Bob,
No need for both of us to make the same mistakes!
Ray
I'm sure the Queen Anne will look great Bob, but I would opt to put the former and late "Princess Diana" or "Fergie" legs under the top. They looked much better, IMO. :>)
Sorry.. just a thought that suddenly came from behind a burning bush!
Regards...
Sarge..
The December 2007 issue of woodsmith magazine has a fairly detailed template and tips on how to make a cabriole leg. I built the Queen Anne lowboy featured in that issue and it came beautiful. I had never built C legs before but, using the tips in this issue, all 4 came really nice on the first try. I cut the rough legs on the band saw and after marking the appropriate lines, took the edges off with my angle grinder and carving discs. Followed up with ROS and then some fine hand work. My wife was shocked. I was real pleased myself. PMM
I built the Queen Anne lowboy featured in that issue and it came beautiful.
What, no pictures? Or did I miss them in the Gallery?
-Chuck
Morning Chuck:
Assuming you are serious in your comments, I haven't mastered posting photos on line- thus no pictures. PMM
pm,
Let's make a deal! I'll get ya postin pics if I can see your legs!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
pm,
"I'll get ya postin pics if I can see your legs"
Watch out! This is the oldest trick in the world for online predators. Next he will want to see what's under your skirt.
Ray
Ray,
Next he will want to see what's under your skirt.
Well now that you mention it I was going to ask a question about aprons.......... Being the expert mebbe you know how far ya want yo legs stickin out from under yo apron?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Skirts & aprons? I was more interested in checking out his drawers.
PM,
Of course I'm serious. You can't come on a forum such as this and casually mention that you built a QA dressing table, and not post pictures. Forestgirl has at least a dozen posts explaining the process.
-Chuck
chuck,
I aint got her ends made yet but I kin show you her legs if ya want. I glued her ends up last nite and will be mortising her legs tonight. Fore that I'll make the tenons stickin outa her ends.
Ummmm doggie, can't wait!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/29/2008 12:30 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
As Abe Lincoln answered, to a similar question ("Mr Lincoln, just how long do you think a man's legs ought to be?")
Just long enough to reach the floor.
Ray
Ray and fellas ,
This wood working conversation could be described as perverse / provocateur
One thing is for sure ,the world is a much more fun place with the likes of you's.
Finding humor is good , sharing is better
thanks dusty
See What's next : Ray delivering a pie crust table on his Injun bike .
Sir Ray,
Would you cast your discerning eye on these and tell me what you think? Still have a bit more to do on her rear legs (the back pair) but gettin there, I hope. Going to shape the feet into slippers. That way she'll be able to skulk about the night without wakin up Mr. Froe.
It's been too damn cold in the woodshop and this mornin they had goosebumps on 'em!
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Looks to me like you have cut out four front legs--but if you turn two of 'em around, I think you'll be alright ;-))
Seriously, they look fine. By Jove, I think he's got it!
Ray
Bob ,
I've never told you this but ,,,,, you have some nice legs there that should make you proud .
dusty
Thanks dusty,
These 4 added to my prototype make a total of 5 that I've made so far. What might be scary is that I really enjoy making them. I hope the final piece that I will use them on comes out nice.
It will be my first QA style piece.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Gee Bob, I never realized you've got really nice legs.
Denny
Denny,
I think it's from lots of exercise, clean air and a great model to start from. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for the reference to the pattern in Woodsmith
for the Cabriolet legs. I looked at their website
for a way to view the accompanying article on how
to shape the legs, but didn't see a way to look at
old issues. Did I miss something or are they not available
online?Jim
Mt Juliet
Hi Jim:
don't think it is online. If you want, I will pull my copy and email the article to you. If so, it will have to wait until next week as my scanner is at my office. Let me know. Patrick
Bob,
Take a look at "Cabriole Legs - Hand-shaped, without a lathe" by Philip C. Lowe From Fine Woodworking #42. I have been using this technique for quite a while and it produces very reliable results. Virtually all of the shaping is done with a rasp and some files. The last step is a scraper. Very little sanding is involved. By far, the most important things to keep close to each other are the horizontal lines (the height of the knee, the height of the ankle, the height of the foot etc). They are the most obvious.
Most interesting about Phil's article is how to make the foot by hand. I much prefer the graceful lines and design flexibility that this offers over the lathed foot.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I use both Mr. Lowes and Mr. Birds articles as my guides and use what I consider the best of both (That's just my opinion, not that it means that much). I agree with you about non lathe cabriole legs. These legs represent a total of 5 altogether experience wise.
Here are the steps that I follow:
Start with tracing the shape on 2 adjacent sides from a template.
Rough cut on bandsaw.
Shape with small 6" drawknife (don't have a spokeshave, yet).
Smooth/shape some more with Four in Hand. (This is where I'm at with these legs.)
Sand through the grits up to 320.
With these legs I had to glue up stock to give me a 3" billet to start with; not my preferred way. I have some cherry logs part of which will be sawn 12/4 so I will have some proper leg stock for the future.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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