Replies

1. 
   JAllen9301 | Jul 25, 2002 07:56am | #1

   Andrew,

   When you say woodaorking is what you want to do for the rest of your life, that suggests to me that you're considering it as a profession. You then go on to say that you don't want to have to worry about your work selling. So, to paraphrase, you want to make money working with wood, but you don't want to have to work wood for your money. Yeah, I'd say you're pretty idealistic.

   There is a way you can do it, though. Become independently wealthy doing something else, like stockbrokering or practicing law or dope smuggling ( all equally honorable professions), save a few million, start up a woodshop and just live on what you've saved.

   Other than that, if you wanna eat, you gotta market what you make. You could be the greatest woodworking master the world has ever seen and fail miserably as a businessman if you lose sight of that simple precept. Woodworking is something we all love. The question we all eventually ask ourselves is, do we love it enough to make it a job? And don't kid yourself, it will turn from fun into work very fast when your rent depends on it .

   As to "making it" as a furniture craftsman, look at a copy of Architectural Digest sometime.   There is a huge market among the very wealthy not just for antiques but for antique reproductions as well as one of a kind pieces. Also, they often buy those antiques in not-so-great shape. Somebody's gotta restore em, right? Hmmmmmmmmm????? heheheh

1. 
   Biscardi | Jul 25, 2002 09:46am | #2

   Lots of compromises will have to be made to make a living doing exceptionally fine woodworking.I just made a nice little piece- about 200 hours- period techniques, finish. I even hand made the nails. You can't do that and make a living.

   I guess you could jig up and crank out 5 or six different pieces. They'd better be some very simple style. You still have to develop a clientel and a way to sell thestuff.Cabinet work might be easier, but the competiton is stiff.Doing this on your own without some grayhaired wise person to advise you isn't going to be easy.

   E-mail Sigian Dubh. He and some of the other pros could give you some insights.

   Good luck

   Frank

2. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Jul 25, 2002 12:35pm | #3

   "I believe that I have some innate skill that with the right training I could become one of the great masters.  Even though that may seem like a complete lack of humility, I believe that it is true. "

   Andrew:

   Ahem!!!!  "... I could become one of the GREAT MASTERS"

   I suggest you learn quite a bit of humility; and the more you work wood, the more humble you will likely become. 

   First there is the issue of the material itself  --  wood is organic and extremely individual (as each individual tree produces specifically unique material).  If you cannot appreciate the fact that the wood you work comes from  some of the most highly evolved life forms on the planet (though they are from the plant kingdom) you will be fighting a losing battle.  There is a big difference between woodworking and working with wood.  At some level, highly skilled wood craftspersons have an almost Zen like interrelationship between themselves, the tools and the wood.  There is no room for arrogance.

   Second, I think you need to consider the history/traditions of the trade.  Yes there are secrets and mysterious practices that are passed down/between masters and 'prentices.  The combination and complexity of all the trades involved in furniture production is truly mind-boggling.  You can study and read about wood turning for years; until you have touched tool to rotating wood, you know nothing about woodturning!  In this country it is a huge industry including everything between architects and upholsterers.  There are lots of very smart, knowledgeable, and dedicated individuals continuing traditions and practices that are thousands of years old.  When I see any piece of furniture/woodwork, be it antique or new, I feel a connection to the individual who actually produced it and mostly, I have an incredible respect for their combination of the level of available technology and  their personal skills.

   The totality of the history, traditions and skills of those who precede you are like the waters of the Pacific Ocean.  Be satisfied if you might somehow be lucky enough to obtain a teaspoon's worth of that water after a life times worth of effort!

   Thirdly, I suggest you start to appreciate the people in the trade.  They include some of the finest individuals I have ever met.  These individuals' qualities include (partially) an incredible ethic to hard work, a natural curiosity, a problem solving brain, incredible patience, good research skills and maybe a minor level of "artistic" flair.  I know individuals who have been "doing their thing" for more than 60 years (I'm but a newbie with 30+ years albeit it with a master of science degree in wood utilization)  --  you better learn to respect these peoples' experience and expertise for they are both your source of knowledge and your competiton.  And realize that mostly, these people work in relative anonymity.

   But the first thing you have to recognize is that quality is judged not by the individual producing an item but rather by those who buy it and those of future generations who will continue to use it.

   I will also state that the last type of person I would want in my shop and potentially using my machines and tooling is someone who is arrogant.   Arrogance + woodworking machines =  DANGER.

1. 
   APBwoodwork | Jul 25, 2002 04:57pm | #6

   I apologize to you if I seemed arrogant in my meaning and writing.  That was not my intention at all.  The only pride I hold is in the belief that I could become great, seeing the few works I have done.  My pride is in my adaptability and speed of learning, and in the confidence of my hands ears and eyes.  If I did not have this pride and confidence, I think I would not even attempt to work with wood.

   I also apologize if I came across as having no respect for wood and the machines and tools used to work it.  I have lived my whole life around trees and forests.  I understand and respect their innate life.  I am sad when a good tree dies, though I choose to not let it go to waste.  I also know the slow paced joy that comes from running a well made hand plane over a beautiful piece of wood to bring out its best figure.  It is that joy that  am searching for answers for so that I can continue with it in my life.

   I would reply to everything else you wrote to me, but honestly speaking, and with no ill will toward you, I am offended with the tone of what you have written.  I did not ask to be torn down by someone who knows not me, my work, my life, or my beliefs.  I am sorry if you take offense at this.  I only mean to tell you how I feel in response to your message.  I really do appreciate the strong belief you have in woodworking and all that it entails.  I also appreciate the conviction you seem to defend wood and woodworking with.  It is refreshing and heartening.  I only hope that you will ask for more information before you assume the worst of someone.

   Thank you and I do hope to hear more from you in the future.

   To everyone else that has replied, I thank you and I will be continuing with this discussion after some careful thought and some more research.

   APB

   Edited 7/25/2002 10:05:03 AM ET by Andrew

1. 
   ChasStanford | Jul 25, 2002 11:03pm | #7

   I think your brashness is great. At 23, you have little to lose. Just don't go into debt, personal or business, and everything will be fine.

1. 
   JAllen9301 | Jul 26, 2002 12:29am | #9

   I think a little brashness is great too. I'm 26, and to me it's not arrogance if you can back it up.

   Although I love to work wood and have gone semi-pro doing a custom piece here and there, I remain a welder by trade. Commercial construction is a tough business, and i think I've probably stayed a little rougher around the edges than a lot of the fine woodworkers I've read around here. I've had a couple people get mad at me here; they don't really mean anything personal by it, they're just intensely proud of the history and tradition of this great craft.

   Also, I really gotta tell you guys, I just don't get it when I read some joker in here prattling on about the "soul of a tree" and how it's "individuality" has to be respected. Now I realize that an understanding of the properties of any material is essential to working it. But come on, waxing philosophic about it? I gotta chuckle anytime I read something like that. The essence of woodworking is putting a tool to the wood and making it do what you want it to do. It's an inherently invasive process. If the wood absolutely won't do what you want, it goes on the scrap pile or in the trash. The "individuality" of a piece of wood is only meaningful to me insofar as it helps me achieve what i'm after. I don't get sad when a tree dies. I get a chit eating grin and fire up the chainsaw.

2. 
   TimSams | Jul 26, 2002 02:06am | #11

   The best advice I've seen yet. That's not taking away from any of the other pearls offered here, but let me tell you, the sprial of debt will cripple dreams faster than anything.

   Tim____________Tim SamsAssociate Editor, Fine WoodworkingKnots Moderator

1. 
   vanderpooch | Jul 26, 2002 02:31am | #12

   my boatbulding teacher told us once, "just when you start thinking you're pretty good at woodworking, somebody comes along and kicks your a*s*s. that's oneof the things i love about it." as my woodworking progresses, i find myself agreeing with him. there is always something to learn, and i think that makes it a worthy lifetime occupation. good luck.

2. 
   gweisenburge | Jul 25, 2002 11:59pm | #8

   Andrew,

   You needn't apologize to Stanley Niemiec, or anyone else. Your self confidence is admirable, especially that you would choose to share it on this forum. We should all feel the way you do at 23, especially those of us that are more than twice your age. Ignore the nay-sayers, follow your instincts, and continue to ask these kinds of questions.

   My advice is to start making money at woodworking - working for yourself or for someone else. Think about an education, College of the Redwoods with James Krenov comes to mind. Remember that all of your initial projects may not be as artistic as you'd like, but you'll be gaining new experience with each of them. You'll learn about woodworking by doing it, whether its production style cabinetry, or one-off commissioned projects. Begin with as few tools as necessary, and collect new ones as your needs change. During his early days at woodworking, Tony Konovaloff's only electric tool was the 40-watt light in his loft, but he sure built some fine, dovetailed chests. Get to know your market - other woodworkers as well as potential clients, and always be looking for more demanding clients. Most importantly, HAVE FUN! It sounds as if you will enjoy this work, but sometimes you may have to work at enjoying it, because it is a lot like work.

   Good luck to you,

   Gary

3. 
   BG | Jul 25, 2002 02:11pm | #4

   Andrew,

   That was a courages note you wrote..but that is what is great about being 23.  Many in here, including myself, want to tell you about life's pitfalls and complexity and the passages you will go through regardless of the profession you choose, or the inate skill you posses.  I can't impart any wisdom on the profession, but I can tell you the poetry books are full of stories about the life or choices one did not make !  You are 23, you can work for yourself and invest your engeries, enthusiam, and skills in developing your own future, or let someone else capitalize on those assets and make a profit on them.  This is not a black and white decision, but rather a trade off that needs to be balanced with your other values.  There is a little book "Do what you love and success will follow" nice thought !  Good luck

4. 
   dhpascoe | Jul 25, 2002 04:05pm | #5

   Andrew:

   These days it seems to me that many craftsmen start out as hobbyists, develop their skills slowly, and gradually work their way into professional work. I once tried a complete career change into woodworking and flopped within a year. There were several reasons for this. (1) while my work was good enough, my skill efficiency was not. Took to long to complete a job. (2)Probably the hardest part is selling your work or finding customers. This can take as long as the job itself.

   We're I to do it over again, I'd make some friends in the biz, find out how they do things so I know what my options are, and then I'd MAKE A PLAN for how I was going to ease my way into the profession gradually so as to avoid bankrupting myself.

   If woodworking is what you put here on earth to do, then woodworking you'll do and you'll find a way. Of course it's a lot better to be smart about it and learn from the mistakes of others.

   Best of Fortune to you.

   Dave

5. 
   RLMillard | Jul 26, 2002 01:38am | #10

   I use to say that I can make anything out of wood but a living. It was funny at first, but as time went on it lost its humor. I’m going to lean a little toward your brashness, and say that I’m very good cabinetmaker, but that is only a part of making money at woodworking. It has taken me about 4 years of fairly hard work to be even close to getting "established" and I still do not make as much money as I’d like. I now have back orders of nearly a year, with more being added regularly. The best thing you can do is look at examples of the best craftsmans work, to get an idea of what is really required to earn the title of master. Beware of some who call themselves masters, because they aren’t always what they crack themselves up to be. I know a local woodworker, who will go on and on about his 60 years of woodworking experience, the trouble is he hasn’t learned much in that in that 60 years. Time served is no guarantee, of ability. Work until you achieve the level of a true craftsman ( finishing is the real hurdle), and then go to shows with your furniture and take out ads in national magazines, a little praying won’t hurt either.

6. 
   Hempstalk | Jul 26, 2002 04:49am | #13

   Hey there Andrew.  I think your idea of woodworking / furniture making as a living is a great idea.  You can do anything you put your mind to.  Don't pay any attention to negative people.  They'll just pull you down.  Stay positive.  I'm a young guy as well only 28.  I've been woodworking for 15 years now and been making a living at it for about 10. It's a tough way to make a living at first so starting out at a young age can be a big advantage.  Stay optimistic and realistic though.  Staring your career in woodworking should be, in my opinion, for the love of working wood.  Your not likely to make a lot of money for the first few years.  Hell some people never make a great living from woodworking. Most do it for the love of it.  You could make more money if you were a plumber, electrician, hell even a garbage man. Sorry (sanitarian technician).   It just takes a little time.  You didn't mention if your employed in a shop at this time but if not it's a good place to start.  Of course there will be some compromises in this situation.  Not being able to make your own original pieces would be at the top of the list but there are also many advantages. You will gain experience using the tools.  I don't mean flattening boards on the jointer or making frame and panel doors.  Those thing are fairly basic and will be picked up quickly.  I mean specialized use of tools for those really nice touches that will set your work apart and allow you to build what you see in your head.  The use of pin routers, bandsaws, vacuum jigs and presses in ways you won't read about in books.  You will also see how a woodworking business runs.  The book work the deadlines and the customer relations.  These are just as important as working wood.  Years ago my college fine furniture instructor told me you can be the best woodworker in the world but if you can't sell your furniture and run the business you might as well go work for someone else and save yourself a lot of grief.  My point being if you really want to be one of the great masters you'll need to know much more than just how to work wood. 

      If the idea of working for someone else is just to restrictive then your alternative is to start you own business right from the start.  Many people are very successful doing exactly this.  Many are not.  After about five years working for a custom furniture business I started my own.  For me the the key was to keep overhead low.  I mean really low.  I agree fully with some of the others who have already warned of the dangers of getting into debt.  This fact alone may make it or break it for many. 

     For me making fine furniture and making kitchen cabinet are two very different areas of woodworking in many ways.  Everyone needs a kitchen. Not a $40,000 kitchen but a kitchen never the less.  Not everyone needs or wants a $20,000 dollar dining table.  Research your area and see if others are doing what you want to do.  Are they doing well?.  Backordered?.  Is there plenty of people in your area willing to spend the dollar to allow you to do what you want ?.  Some areas yes other areas hell no.  If your area has potential then in time, if you do very nice work, you will have more than you can handle.  Keep in mind woodworking is a life long learning experience.  As I learn more and more about wood and working it the big picture become clearer and I realize how much more there is to learn.  I've only seen the tip of the iceberg.  It's exciting to know you couldn't learn everything if you lived five lifetimes.  With a good positive attitude like the one you have you will do very well.  Good luck.

7. 
   wbwood | Jul 26, 2002 05:54am | #14

   Andrew,

   I was 22(it was 1972) when I started making "furniture" in a dirt floored single car garage with a few hand tools, a skil saw, some sandpaper and some varathane. I just never have been able to shake the simple great satisfaction of building stuff out of wood.

   In these thirty years, I've made my living in woodworking about 25 of those years and here's a couple things to think about:

   Believe in yourself and your ability to do anything;

   There is always more to learn!

   Buy tools as you need them for a project;

   Grow the business from within, make it earn it's own way, slowly;

   Listen to and watch others, then find your own way over time;

   You will most definitely have to sell, no doubt about it;

   After thirty years I can truthfully say that I know I have more to learn than I've learned so far, and that's a good thing.

   Be careful- a chisel can go to bone quickly, a saw will remove your finger, you can be speared by a kickback so fast...SO FAST

   Be careful and have fun;

   Try to be a good woodworker, and then try to be a better one with each project.

   These are just a few things to think about. wb

1. 
   RSRose | Jul 26, 2002 09:38am | #15

   WB,

   Good advice.

   Rich

1. 
   mitch | Jul 27, 2002 05:07pm | #16

   i could have written your letter 20 years ago- different art form, but everything else virtually the same.  email me at [email protected]   i'll tell you what i know.

   best,

   mitch

8. 
   rslatm | Jul 29, 2002 07:52pm | #17

   Just curious as to whom you consider the masters of today. Norm? Maloof? Castle, Makepeace, Krenov, Madsen, Mattia, Kopf, Gary Knox Bennet, Frid, Cedarquist?????

   There's plenty of young people entering woodworking but not the same field you have envisioned.  Sounds more like keeping it as a hobby might be more what you want. I went the full time woodworking route to learn as much as I could and got caught up in having to make a living so at the end of the day making my own stuff was at the bottom of my to do list. I'm still in the woodworking field but I don't do the actual work so I'm getting motivated to do my own stuff again.

   Marry a wealthy woman! Learning marketing is useful. I know a few artists and craftspeople  who's work is ok but they always seem to be in shows while others whose work is great don't seem to do as much. The masters are more than skilled craftspeople. They have a good sense of design, proportion and innovation.  The masters are artists as well. Not to intrude on that other thread that is dealing with the "artist" issue.