With the abundance of new tools available it is not suprising that so many woodworkers are searching for the perfect jig or joinery tool. I am thinking of the new pocket joinery systems.
I think you have to be careful of tools like these for two reasons:
1. This tools have very basic joiner problems. While screws are used in fine woodworking, you must remeber that a screw for joinery is little different than a pin, and a pin requires very judicious use. Wooden doors, when pinned together (rail to stile) can not be used in an exterior application because the joint won’t handle the range of humidity. Mortise and tenon joints have a good history handling moisture variations.
2. Assuming your are an amatuer woodworking, you are passing up an opportunity to develop real skills. You may successfully use a joinery jig, after an extensive “set-up” learning curve, but when you have mastered the jig your only new skill is having learned to use the jig. When the jig is replaced by the next wonder tool, you start all over on the same “set-up” learning curve, never learning anything except how to read the “easy set-up instructions”.
The most basic thing, I think, about mortise and tenon joinery is that it is NOT a precision joint. Dove tails are not precision joints either. Pin joinery requires a great deal of precision. The less precision envolved, the more skill required. In general machines (jigs) are designed to be used by un-skilled workers.
Buy yourself a mallet, utility knife, a set of chisels, pencil, and sharpening stones….and practice. You would not enter a marathon without training, and you can not expect to develop joinery skills without practice. Guarnateed you will do very bad work for a few years, but you will learn. The satisfaction, and the real skills you will develop are worth the effort.
1.
Replies
Did you recently have a bad experience you'd like to tell us about?
To whom are you preaching?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Maybe so, but I knocked together an auxiliary fence and some other stuff for my shop in under an hour with no plans. Fast, accurate and easy. Not everything used for FWW must be FWW.
And as many have noted before, FWW means different things to different people. :)
"The most basic thing, I think, about mortise and tenon joinery is that it is NOT a precision joint. Dove tails are not precision joints either. Pin joinery requires a great deal of precision. The less precision envolved, the more skill required. In general machines (jigs) are designed to be used by un-skilled workers."
I think that I disagree with everything you wrote in that paragraph.
Buy yourself a mallet, utility knife, a set of chisels, pencil, and sharpening stones....and practice. You would not enter a marathon without training, and you can not expect to develop joinery skills without practice. Guaranteed you will do very bad work for a few years, but you will learn. The satisfaction, and the real skills you will develop are worth the effort.
How do I disagree with thee? Let me count the ways. - lol
All of us have different reasons for pursuing this hobby/trade/art form. For some woodworkers, spending 2-3 hours hand cutting drawer dovetails is time well spent. For others (like me) it's interesting, but pretty tedious. "Real skills" aren't limited to profeciency with hand tools.
My "passion" is working with a customer to translate their dream into a set of drawings (CAD, of course) and then turn those drawings into a well made, functional, and (hopefully) beautiful piece of cabinetry or furniture. Maybe I'm working with unsophisticated customers, but whenever I've mentioned M&T joints or dovetailed drawer boxes, I get a blank look. They're looking for solid construction, functionality, and attractivness..........at a price that stops short of rape - lol. They don't really care how I get there.
I'm sure that some woodworkers would say that what I do isn't "fine", but when a customer tells me that my work exceeds their expectations, it feels pretty "fine" to me. (I also feel pretty good when the check clears, too - lol.)
You know what.... Jigs were no less common 150 years ago then they are now. Jigs don't create precision.... they promote repeatability. By their very nature jigs and traditional joinery go hand in hand. I have NEVER seen doors held togather by pins (I assume you mean from a nailer). Those pins are used to temporarly secure the frame while the glue dries. And a cope and stick door is very strong when made correctly.
Mike
RIDave,
I tend to agree with a lot of what you say...especially when they are asking $199 (on sale) for three pieces of plastic and a couple of clamps for the pocket joinery...wow!!!
However, another concept that your position ignores is building to need..or the suitability of purpose so to speak. Many here use the pocket joinery on kitchen cabinets that have a useful life of about 20 years...does M&T last longer than that, you bet...does it make sense?
I've been surprised by shaker furniture...the joinery is not fancier than the need or usefulness. I was also surprised by Rhode Island furniture with the drawer bottoms nailed on..no grove.
So maybe the most important thing is design...not just the artsy-fartsy side but the functional and appropriatness of construction ...wood wise, finish wise and joinery wise.
Many here use the pocket joinery on kitchen cabinets that have a useful life of about 20 years...
Just so I understand, do you believe that a face frame constructed with pocket screws and attatched to a box using any of the common methods will fall apart in 20 years? The only thing that will fall apart on a cabinet constructed in this maner will be the hinges and slides, and the finish will have degraded depending on how rough it was used. The longevity of the job has nothing to do with the use of pocket screws.
Ultimately we should use the best joinery for the given aplication. M&T for leg to apron, screws for face frames, etc....
Mike
mudman,
No, I'm saying people get tried of the cabinets after 20 years and swap them out...
I fail to see how most replies have anything to do with my initial statement. I said if you use a pocket joinery tool (I have nothing against dry wall screws) you do not develop basic wood working skills.....you learn how to use a tool that does the work for you. I also thought I said that you must be careful that the joint you develop will handle moisture changes.
Let me try another example. Suppose you could purchase a tool that made a complete finished product. You need only decide what you want to build, press a few control buttons, feed in the raw stock, and out comes the finshed product (table, chair, sofa, desk, ets.). Further suppose that the cost to purchase and operate this tool was very reasonable. The tool comes with an instructional DVD. The set-up requires a special power source (available at Home Depot) and some delicate adjust of cutters. The furniture made by this tool would be very inexpensive and would allow people to redecorate their homes every month or so with new furniture.
Would the set-up and operation of this tool improve your woodworking skills?
Does doing something faster and cheaper have any limit?
I hate to point this out, but if you're cutting mortises and tenons, you're doing darn near nothing to improve your dovetailing skills.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"I hate to point this out, but if you're cutting mortises and tenons, you're doing darn near nothing to improve your dovetailing skills."
I disagree on that point. Both mortise-tenons and dovetails depend on accurate cuts of a saw and precise use of a chisel. Practicing either one of those joints will improve saw and chisel skills which are readily applied to the other.
Edited 5/18/2006 1:23 am ET by labolle
I guess it ain't funny without a smiley.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Just to add to your "basic woodworking skills", one does not use "drywall screws" with pocket joinery. Are your hinges all wood too? I would hate to think the Luddites have gone to metal hinges unless they are mining the mineral,smelting,forging etc. To do so would certainly not advance your basic metallurgy skills any.
Edited 5/17/2006 11:36 pm ET by dgreen
Many woodworkers get caught up in the assanine details of joinery and dont realize that making M&T joints or using pocket screws has as much to with woodworking as mastering welding does with building a custom car. Think about it.
Using a Kreg Jig dosen't help advance ones skills? My last job involved about 40 or 50 pocket screws. Yet I learned a great deal. In fact it was probably the most chalenging project I've had this year. If I had used M&T joinery (or any other acceptably advanced joinery) I would not have advanced my skill one bit more. The new woodworker who is learning his craft will gain more from the design, layout and execution of a project than he would learn from making a M&T joint; which, by the way, is not even a difficult skill to master.
Mike
> Many woodworkers get caught up in the assanine details of joinery and dont realize that making M&T joints or using pocket screws has as much to with woodworking as mastering welding does with building a custom car. Think about it.<
That's a great analogy.
It seems like your post is right on the money but I'm still developing my philosophy on this question. It seems like woodworking is littered with a lot of gizmology when what really counts is using whatever it takes to get the job done. It is interesting to read the first 50 issues of FWW and see ads for gizmology that didn't really catch on. It seems like what we call "skill" is a constant throughout the years and is often times "knowledge of how to do it" more than anything else. Knowledge of how to translate vision into a gallery piece.. I don't know, I'm not there yet on the skill level, myself.
Exactly. Look at the cover of all the ww'ing mags on the news stand, the ww'ing books at the book store and the discussions when two or more amature ww'ers get togather. Inevitably it becomes a discussion on the "best" way to make a tennon (probably the least used joint in the craft after the dovetail), or why you NEED a shaper if you really want to make doors, or how you can only get a solid glued up panel after dressing the edges with a hand plane. I do not think that amature woodworkers are any less adept than seasoned pros. I have seen "amature" work in FWW and on this site that far exceeds my work.
When you get a group of acomplished or pro woodworkers togather there is never a discusion about pocket screws or wheather a tennon jig on the table saw is better than using a router or Radial Arm Saw.
What I challenge the joinery/ technique/ machine obsessed woodworker is to fuss more over the poportions of the design, wheather the reveal of a bead is too much for the cove above it. Is the shadow cast by the table top hiding the drawer? If so should I make the apron higher or the table top smaller. Is the foot of my queen ann leg even with the table top ..... or should it have a wider stance? How far can I take the William Mary style before it becomes that early Queen anne style. Should I add some flutes? Fully chamfer the edges or just give a couple passes with 220 grit?
What it comes down to is some are more interested in their machines (or lack there of) and their ability to hand cut dove tails than woodworking.
Mike
The woodworkers that I know who can pull off hand cut joinery with some deftness rarely make the kind of gross compositional errors you seem concerned about. Beautifully cut joinery on an utter monstrosity happens occassionally, but not often enough to be considered epidemic I wouldn't imagine.
Your overall point is a good one though, we could all do with more study of design, classic proportions, etc.
Edited 5/18/2006 3:16 pm ET by BossCrunk
You're probably right, because by the time you've improved your design skills, you've improved your technical skills as well.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
You make a good point, and I agree. I too have never seen fine hand wrought joinery on ill concieved work. On the same token I would never use nails, or screws as methods of joinery on a nice piece of furniture.
I just hate to hear that using a pocket screw jig dosen't advance ones skill. Anytime we are in the shop working wood, mantaining machines, reading instruction manuals or ww'ing literiture and certinly engaging in these discusions on the net we are learning and refining our craft.
I wish I wasn't too lazy to dig up all my posts over the years that contradict things that I am saying today. I have flip-flopped on about every issue commonly debated. On this forum I have challenged others ideas and opinions and had my own challenged. This is what has shaped my practices in the shop. Only reciently have I gotten to know my profesional contemporaries in the area. And none of them spend time on the 'puter. It is interesting to see how over the course of 25 or 30 years they have developed the shop practices that we are able to hammer out in a fraction of that time with the input from hundreds of individuals on these forums.
I like the signiture that one of yall uses, it is something like:
"I tell you that we are here to fart around, and don't let anyone tell you differently."
Mike
MM,
You are a philosopher of the first water, your recollection and approval of the Kurt Vonnegut quote being certain confirmation.
In order to change ones mind on a regular basis (a necessary cathartic procedure for all meme-infested humans) one needs to hold firm opinions which one then gives up in the face of firmer ones; or even in the face of evidence from Reality. Growth is good; whilst stunted things that shy away from the River of Change (Heroclitus had a fine way with words) always elicit our sympathy and disgust, in equal measure.
Why do some personalities feel the need to rubbish the endeavours and predelictions of others, based only on some semi-religious prejudice? Why is it that folk opine from some half-assed theoretical basis rather than from an honest review of their own actual experience?
Myself I have never used pocket hole joinery. I therefore offer no opinion on its worth or otherwise, as my pocket hole theories would be....entirely theoretical.
Lataxe (more of a farter-about than a thinker, despite extensive meme-infestation of his cerebal cortex).
Edited 5/18/2006 6:36 pm ET by Lataxe
LOL
I love it. And I agree......... untill someone convinces me otherwise.
LOL
Mike
The beautiful thing about hand cut joinery is that I can do it AND run machines. You don't forget how to chuck a bit in a router or set up a shaper cutter or run the Lamello.
If I decided to get back into production woodworking I could hit the ground running, no beats skipped. Checks would have to be written and machines set up. I'm guessing the first lumber would be processed inside seven days. First projects rolling off the shop floor in fourteen days, max.
There is no religiosity involved. I got sick of hearing machines screaming. I'm thrilled I had options. Those without the requisite hand tool and layout skills simply do not have options. No turn of phrase can get around that fact.
Having been there, I can honestly say the most important thing to have in a fully mechanized operation is a checkbook.
Ben Hogan said that you were not a finished golfer until you could both fade and draw the ball at will. He was right. There is an equivalent in woodworking.
Edited 5/19/2006 7:44 am ET by charlesstanford
I suppose really Charles, the beautiful thing about being able to do handwork is that that ability is probably the root of all furniture making skills. What goes on between the ears and how that's linked with manual skill is easily transferred to an understanding of machining and machine woodworking.
When a machine is unavailable for whatever reason-- as happened to me yesterday-- just dig out the hand tools and carry on with the job.
If all you have are machine skills then you're snookered when a machine is suddenly unavailable-- until that machine is available again.
It's similar, I suppose, to being able to do sums either in the head or with paper and pencil. You can always revert to this method of calculating, but if all you know is how to use a calculator then perhaps the understanding of the principles and processes of basic numeracy are limited or perhaps missing altogether. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Well put. The irony for me is that I can't afford a good set of hand tools. For the cost of 2 good planes I can buy a decient 8" jointer. So I don't really consider handtools the cheeper route. One of these days (how often have I said that) I will make something using only solid lumber and hand tools. That will be interesting.
Mike
When it occurs to you that you have essentially unlimited capacity by taking the tool to the work instead of vice-versa your perception of value and what's a 'good deal' will change.
That is very true. One never needs a 12" hand plane!
Mike
Well, I guess if you could pick the thing up you could gang-joint the edges of a lot of stock very quickly!
The jointer and planer are the two most capacity restricting machines in the shop. It is sad when a woodworker finds himself or herself passing over beautiful, wide stock (and it does still exist) because of the capacity limitations of the machinery they have in place.
I can't even bring myself to spell out completely ri$$ping and re$luing. I don't much care for this as a solution.
A handheld electric planer is a reasonable alternative.
Edited 5/19/2006 12:10 pm ET by BossCrunk
I think you are over estimating what it costs to have a good plane. For general work, on typical furniture woods, an older Stanley Bailey can be had for under $50, and adding $20 for an aftermarket blade, makes that an excellent tool, with an hour spent "fettling", roughly equivalent to the time spent assembling that 8" jointer. These are not mediocre tools.
Sure Lie-Nielson makes planes that eliminate the hour of fettling, and Lee Valley does as well, but the performance advantage of those planes is limited to particularly figured hardwoods.
And, what I consider the best smooth plane in the world is available for $325 or so from Clark and Williams. It will handle the figured wood with unmatched aplomb.
If you think you need to have to have LN tools to have good hand planes, then the proper comparison in 8" jointers is to the DJ20 at least not to Jet, Grizzley or Wilkes.
Steve,
Good points - but you US guys are denied the pleasures of European planer-thicknessers, which not only tend to larger capacities but seem to work without all that sniping and what-have-you that one reads about in this forum.
I recommend Scheppach - from experience, naturally. Of course, they are still noisy machines that only require one to press an on-switch, set the depth of cut and feed the plank. Not much skill in that, even if the resultant plank is rather smooth and square.
But, as you know, I for one am willing to try on a New Thing now and then. I'm off to surf for those esoteric smoothers you mentioned. :-)
Lataxe
I have a 16" Hammer Jointer/Planer combo that replaced my DJ 20 several years ago. But wood is not ready to finish direct from any powered planer. Its much faster with a smooth plane than a ROS, and much more pleasant.
Clark and Williams is at http://www.planemaker.com. My C&W smoother cost me about $800. The first part was the $325 my wife paid for the plane as an anniversary gift on a day I had forgotten. The rest was for the pearls that made up for the oversight.
Steve,
Coincidentally, my ladywife is also enamoured of pearls. I tried making wooden beads but she sussed me in a moment.
My latest strategy has been to try and induce a feeling of obligation in her jeweller by supplying him with brass-cornered aformosia mounts for his up-market naval clocks. I expect a heavy discount on the baubles at the ladywife's next birthday. (Well, I can hope).
Thanks for the link, by the way.
Lataxe
Edited 5/21/2006 9:54 am ET by Lataxe
True enough, I can get a "oldie but a goodie" plane and spend around $70 including the new blade. However in order for that old plane to preform as well as a Veritas or Lee Valley does out of the box I will have to spend a day flatening the sole, fileing the seat flat, flatening the chip breaker and the cap or frog in hopes that it wont chatter too much. I have no doubt that some others could do it faster.... but I know myself better. I charge $250 to $350 a day when bidding jobs so even if it took me half a day I'd be loosing over all. Not to mention the new planes are signifigantly improved over the origional designs. If I was a hobbiest on a tight budget I would be interested in saving the $100. But even when I was a hobbiest my interest was in making stuff with wood, not making stuff to make stuff with wood. I kno that there are lots of people who love rehabing those old tools, but when someone wants a tool to do a job I say get the best tool you can.
Mike
"you do not develop basic wood working skills" .........."Would the set-up and operation of this tool improve your woodworking skills?"
Which "woodworking skills" require development and improvement? I've seen old time shops with dozens of hand molding planes - many of them virtual works of art. They're fascinating, but aren't they really a 200 year old version of a drawer full of router and shaper bits? If I need a molding with a profile that I can get with a few passes on a shaper, is that molding somehow inferior to one made with a hand held molding plane? If it is, the difference isn't apparent to me.
The "woodworking skills" necessary to work in a modern shop full of power tools are certainly different than those we would have needed 200 years ago, but I don't see them as inferior. Those old-timers were dealing with the same requirements we face today - building strong, functional, durable, and attractive cabinetry and furniture. They did it with the best tools they had at that time and I'm certain that they readily accepted new technology and improved techniques to make their job easier and faster.
Dave,
I'm a bit surprised to see your reiteration of David Pye's "Workmanship of Risk" challenged. I though it was accepted canon in the woodworking world.
"Suppose you could purchase a tool that made a complete finished product. You need only decide what you want to build, press a few control buttons, feed in the raw stock, and out comes the finshed product (table, chair, sofa, desk, ets.).
Would the set-up and operation of this tool improve your woodworking skills?"
I think Pye's take wasn't so much in terms of skill, but satisfaction. Its been a while since I read that book. I guess I'm interested if anyone else read that book and if they see any comparison to what RIDave is being skewered for and what Pye wrote?
Adam
Were I talented enough I'm quite sure I would be completely satiated by sitting with sketchbook and pencil in hand designing exquisite works of decorative art (furniture, etc.) and handing the sketches off to a shop manager to build.
Barring that kind of extraordinary talent, I have to find some satisfaction from the execution of a piece.
Kreg jigs don't give me that kind of satisfaction.
I thank God Almighty that I'm still able to make a living and not have to buy and use every labor-saving device ever invented for the woodworking industry. I relish the labor.
Edited 5/19/2006 3:32 pm ET by BossCrunk
If only the original post in this thread had spoken arguments of experience and logic, like the later posts of Sqiandubh, Bosscrunk, Mudman et al. Perhaps then AdamCherubini would not have needed to be surprised at the exasperation generated by what he takes to be a WW "accepted canon". (What was that about no religiosity in WW)?
Of course it is good to have many and varied skills in WW, including the primitive skills that in many ways underpin a better grasp of the more complex ones. There is no doubting that the wisdom gained from wide experience of many techniques increases not just the WW skill base but the fundamental understanding of the whole subject.
Everyone must start somewhere. In this world-in-a-hurry, machine tools are a good starting place for many; and some will be content to make do with just those. Many of them will make very fine furniture, as portrayed regularly in FWW and elsewhere.
Conversely, no one should consider another person a fool who prefers to use only the slow and hard-to-learn hand tools of yesteryear. It's only a preference. It is satisfying and quiet; even faster in some cases.
Ideally (in Utopia, Zion or wherever) it would be great to become 100% proficient with each and every skill.
However, if I am not currently identical in skills, opinion, preferences and so on with one who believes himself a Superior Woodworker (bow down, mere jig-users all) then we must argue - not about who is really superior but about the whole notion of superiority, rightness and worth. You are NOT a better or "real" woodworker only if you use hand tools; nor are you "unskilled" if you are adept with power tools and jigs rather than handplanes and tenon saws.
Just a reminder of those high-handed phrases from post-one (highlighting mine):
Assuming your are an amatuer woodworking, you are passing up an opportunity to develop real skills. You may successfully use a joinery jig, after an extensive "set-up" learning curve, but when you have mastered the jig your only new skill is having learned to use the jig.
In general machines (jigs) are designed to be used by un-skilled workers.
[Learning hand tool use] Guarnateed you will do very bad work for a few years [!!!], but you will learn. The satisfaction, and the real skills you will develop are worth the effort.
There will probably have to be a bonfire of woodrats, pocket hole jigs and many other heretical items. Then we will all have to go to a woodworking monastery for 10 years and work very frugally with mallets and bowsaws. Our Very Bad Work will serve to keep us warm in our cells.
Lataxe
You ought to send that post to a calligrapher and add one thing before they put it on parchment, a title, "An Ode to Mediocrity"
Boss,
I am indeed merely ordinary and tend to fear heroes, especially the self-appointed ones that want everyone else to be heroes just like them.
Meanwhile I'll get back to making some unskilled but precise furniture with my silly jigs. Its such fun and requires no hair shirt or even a prickly apron. :-)
Lataxe.
But I weaved my own hair shirt and I built the rack I torture myself in while I hand plane stock.
Just don't forget to hire the calligrapher. You surely don't want those words forever lost to future generations of underachievers and excuse makers.
Edited 5/19/2006 5:00 pm ET by BossCrunk
First let me say that I am not a professional woodworker. I recently finished 2 dressers for LOML and all dovetails (drawer and case) were hand cut. Not out of snobbery but the drawers are progressively sized and I find that I can lay out the tails and cut them faster than I can reset an adjustable jig for each drawer size. I also like the esthetics of a pin which is narrower than a router bit can produce.
I also don't need to wear muffs during the process. I'm not a neanderthal, I use machines when appropriate but ,as a hobbiest, there are times when speed isn't everything.
RWD,
Everything you say makes sense. There are many ways to make furniture and happily we can choose, according to our taste and preference. I can appreciate your desire for a quieter shop, for example.
On the other hand, we shouldn't necessarily accept common prejudices as fact. It is possible to cut variable spaced dovetails, of the traditional narrow type found on drawers, with a machine tool.
Here are a couple of pics of a table I made last month for a neighbour, in about 12 manhours (as far as I can remember, no timesheet). The tails and pins of the drawer were cut on a woodrat using their tiny HSS dovetail cutter and a long spiral HSS bit for the pins. I could have spaced them any way I like with no special set up or changes required.
The table's other construction details are a mixture of old and new techniques.
* There are M&T joints (woodrat made) as well as biscuit joints in there.
* The drawbottom is glued and screwed plywood on wide hardwood runners, as per a modern technique learnt from a FWW article.
* The top rail is dovetailed to the leg-tops (handcut).
* Everything is dimensioned on a tablesaw;
* A block plane and scraper were used to smooth everything before the oil and wax finish was hand rubbed on. (Only a final handsand).
But the same item could have been made entirely by hand (or machine) and I might even have managed the dovetails, with a lot of practice and initial waste - but not in 12 manhours perhaps......?
I don't mind the router, despite the racket; should I be stoned or staked, do you think? :-)
Lataxe
PS As a nod to tradition, I embedded the bolt heads from an ancient, defunct and rotted handsaw, belonging to the "customer", in the table legs.
Mr. Axe: This is my first post here. I'd like to congratulate you on your very fine project. It is delicate and graceful.
Runt
Mr Runt,
I am basking in your praise; although the design was 90% that of the recipient, Mr Forrester, an octogenarian who spent 40-odd years working for Waring and Gillow, a fine furniture maker of yesteryear in Lancaster. He was a french polisher but also dabbled in cabinet making until his old body started messing with hand and eye.
I'm waiting for a natterjack to have a snipe at the item now (which I don't mind at all, natterjacks, as I like to learn). :-)
Lataxe
On the other hand, we shouldn't necessarily accept common prejudices as fact. It is possible to cut variable spaced dovetails, of the traditional narrow type found on drawers, with a machine tool.
What are you talking about? Those don't look anything like hand cut dovetails. Hand cut dovetails have little gaps, the angles are never correct, and they are never that tight! Shows what you know! ;)
BTW, nice table.
Buster
Hee hee. Precisely put.
Lataxe, a mere machine minder.
Nice table! Nice stone pathway, too. Please define natterjack for me.Cadiddlehopper
Natterjack:
common brownish-yellow short-legged toad of western Europe; runs rather than hops,Nit picker,armchair general,rigid evangelistic traditionalist.Curious to hear Lataxe's definition, he is far more gentlemanly than I.Dgreen....Curmudgeon at large...
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thanxx!! You saved me a paper cut from turning dictionary pages. 'Twas a slightly strong word based on your definitions.I am puzzled by the heading: The quest for precision. We seemed to ignore that idea while discussing another issue - maybe natterjackery. I like precision whether chiseled or tablesawn. Could that be a really serious character flaw? Maybe psychological imbalance?Cadiddlehopper
I also like precision however arrived at. I blame it on my father who blames it on his father who blamed it on his father. Possibly from harsh toilet training dating back generations. Don't let my definitions set the bar though, I got the first part from dictionary.com and added the latter part myself. As I said Lataxe is much more gentlemanly and refined than myself and may have had an entirely different meaning in mind.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Well I think you're the gentleman really as you say what you think whilst I hide my worst thoughts. :-)
Your intuition on my meaning of natterjack is more or less right, except that it also includes a couple of more positive attributes, as:
* Nitpicker, who may help rid one of nits one didn't realise were crawling about one's person, although a less nippy pair of tweezers would be welcome.
* Defender of traditions good as well as bad, albeit in a strident manner with reedy, pedantic voice style.
* Defenders of Right and scourges of Wrong, of both the subjective and objective categories: right/wrong.
In short, whilst WW natterjacks may be a bit warty and frightening at first acquaintance, they often impart of bit of WW wisdom between the sneers and stern lectures.
Quite honestly, I like to rebel a bit as a matter of habit (my mam showed me how and her mam showed her, etc.) partly to attract the attentions of The Headmaster, who whilst berating me might also let some wisdom slip.
Its a dialectical thing.
NB How can I get you started on the evils of modern marketing? I enjoy reading a rant given with passion and style. :-)
Lataxe, a naughty boy.
As regards your NB, I'll have to give that some thought. Since marketing is carefully directed at the lowest common denominator I'm afraid we probably largely get what we deserve. In this country anyway Johnny can't read but by God he can play football. When we don't teach reading or critical thinking in our homes or schools it makes it easy and cost effective to market to morons. I'll work up a good rant and get back to you. Need to take deep breaths and pursue calmness as I really like my current keyboard and don't wish to punish the keys!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
dgreen,
"Johnny can't read but by God he can play football. When we don't teach reading or critical thinking in our homes or schools it makes it easy and cost effective to market to morons"
Just a little food for thought....
In many cases Johnny has been playing computer games for the past 15 or so years....very complex computer games. Johnny has absorbed some very advanced logic skills. They're actually quite amazing in their ability to understand complex issues. I don't know how this will all play out...but it is interesting.
That will look good on their job application that someone else will have to fill out for them.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Johnny's been on a sugar high since 1994 drinking things like Mountain Dew Code Red, he's been diagnosed with ADHD since third grade and after 10,000 hours of playing Grand Theft Auto on his playstation his one ambition in life is to be a sniper.
Gawd! The only hope is to get kids reading books at a very young age.
Ed,
When I were young I was a stupid pain in the nether region, one way and another. This is the priviledge of all teenagers and only the style of being stupid changes.
I am still a pain but not so stupid now, because you're right about the books of course. I was saved from complete stupidity by the rather jingoistic boys comic "Wizard and Adventure", and also "The Rover", which led to the reading of many other books, including my latest, all about how the universe got made. Then there's Taunton press......
Lataxe, a bookworm
Sir! You are quite the amazing poster: each of your posts (always interesting and well-thought-out) has a by-line that appropriately fits the content of that post, and is often rather amusing and thought-provoking in and of itself. By your posts, you seem to have lived a rather interesting life, filled with adventures of various sorts, all contributing to your education and wisdom, so...... Were you to seek an all-purpose "generic" by-line, perhaps this one would do:
"Lataxe, Renaissance Man" ?Cheers!James
James,
You are much too forgiving of my terrible and self-indulgent character. In fact, I am a circumloquacious old fool that ought to stop posting, or so Charles S tells me, to wit:
"Your talent for asking and then answering your own question is unsurpassed........I have a fancy that you'll quit writing as if you were a member of the court of Elizabeth I. Stilted comes to mind".
He has a point. :-)
Life is interesting though, both in the fabulous real world and the wider world in one's head. I feel very lucky to have been born into this time and place.
I blame the National Health Service for providing me, nobbut a peasant lad, with all that free orange juice, malt, rosehip syrup and milk when I was a bairn - it made me Big, Strong and Up for Adventures.
Not to mention the state education system, which sent me, at no charge, to the Groves of Academe where I learnt to woffle in a long-winded way about anything and everything.
And now Taunton gives me a woodworking education and a forum to woffle in! Some of it is even free.
Lataxe, a child of his time.
<<In fact, I am a circumloquacious old fool that ought to stop posting, or so Charles S tells me, to wit:>> Charles S is certainly entitled to his opinion....For me, I find your posts quite entertaining, and were you to stop posting, I think it would be a loss to the forum and all the people who gather here to trade experiences, wisdom, and wit.<<"Your talent for asking and then answering your own question is unsurpassed........I have a fancy that you'll quit writing as if you were a member of the court of Elizabeth I. Stilted comes to mind".>> Well, that particular Queen had some pretty interesting characters in her court, so to be counted amongst them would be....a compliment.....? Someone once told me I wrote like a lawyer; I took that as the insult that it was intended to be, and continued to write as I write: don't know how to write like anyone else..... (and no, I'm not a bloody barrister.... LOL) I'd say that for "nobbut a peasant lad" you've not done too badly you know.....and you do have that there lady-wife that seems to think rather highly of you.....Cheers!James
James,
You are making me embarassed (no your not). <G>
Of course, I am an Elizabethan, albeit Elizabeth II. I try to wear ruffs and bodkins though, as it amuses the grandchildren.
That ladywife loves everything she comes across and I am on her list, if only second, third or sixth to various stray cats and three-legged dogs. She is My Lovely Treasure. I believe she could even love Charles. :-O
Talking of whom, I have been reading some of his historic posts. I hereby declare him a Knots Treasure and look forward eagerly to the next full moon!
Lataxe
<< I believe she could even love Charles. :-O Talking of whom, I have been reading some of his historic posts. I hereby declare him a Knots Treasure and look forward eagerly to the next full moon!>> 'Tis is a good thing. Historically, English kings named "Charles" have not fared too terribly well. One would hope that the future King could change that! Anyway...no intention to embarrass, but I am sure that the Shakespearean duds get many a raucous laugh from the younguns!! "'ey Geoffrey!! Look at Gramps... 'e looks like one of them what's in the paintins onna castle walls inside....." LOL Can't believe that the Lady-Wife would have you anywhere but in first place: not after doing such things as that superb fountain house for her...... Anyway, keep up the fun postings!! :-)JamesBTW, how's that table coming along?
James,
The pitch pine table is near complete, despite many a setback. I'll post you a picture or three in due course.
Next on my list is a G & G desk in aformosia (or afromosia if you prefer). Already I'm fretting about which way up to put the cloud lift on the stretchers. :-)
Lataxe
Axe, Old Bean, I prefer AFRORMOSIA.I prefer it very much.
Let us see pictures at any time.Philip Marcou
>Of course, I am an Elizabethan, albeit Elizabeth II. I try to wear ruffs and bodkins though, as it amuses the grandchildren.
---
Lataxe, what are ruffs and bodkins? I don't remember hearing them mentioned on Corrie St. That's where I get my knowledge of the old country... The answer to your second question is: Canada. The answer to the first can only be provided by a qualified physician.
This has been an entertaining thread. Lataxe, you call yourself many things but your are really more of a poet than a heretic. :)
I must say though that the post that started the thread was rather confusing.
The interesting part was the religeous debate between using hand tools and using machines. Just starting out, I've equiped myself with the basic stationary tools first. I find the first WW I've tried is cutting dovetails, M&Ts, and building a small frame and panel door all from pine and for practise. I did about half of that by hand and I'm now wondering if I spent too much on motorized equipment and not enough on hand tools. I have some nice tools but no handplanes! Don't know enough about them.
I suppose as one poster mentioned, I should be trying my hand at a finished piece so I can call it WW.
From writing this I come up with two questions that I might take to the appropriate forums: are dovetail joints supposed to LOOK handmade like mine (gaps) or was one of you making a joke; and what type of handplane should be used to square up a glueup, or did I ****up? ;)
I'm interested in woodworking as a hobby to learn how fine furniture is made and to make some for my home. I own too many products from China already. As for the time factor, I prefer doing for myself than paying someone else. The time is justified as a satisfying new hobby. Bonus if I become good enough to offer furniture to family/friends.
I've grown sick of electronics and programming. It was fun when I started but has gone downhill -- perhaps because I've been doing it professionally for too long. Still worth mentioning for the analogy which may be lost here but I'll try. I always leaned to programming in assembler. I use C grudgingly but its almost too high level for me. Fancy 4GLs, database programming, source level debuggers, code browsers, etc. These are the power tools of software programming and they take the fun out of it. Give me an assembler and printf debugging and watch me program circles around the high-level programmer.
Guess I was trying to say something about religeous (inflamatory) about woodworking indirectly. At the same time, I also hope those power tools pay themselves off too. My wife won't wait forever for the 'returns' on my shop investments. :)
Ah, its great to hear oneself talk sometimes, isn't it?
Btw, a comment from another poster about the kids growing up with video games which help them with logic and skill: hogwash. I've played video games for 20 years. (I'm not as *old* as most of you.) Aside from minimal hand-eye coordination, they only destroy grey matter and weaken the eyes. The reply comment about carpel-tunnel was accurate though.
Andy
Andy,
It IS good to woffle on and personally I like to read interesting woffle just as much as I like to type it in. I greet you as a fellow woffle artist.
The "ruffs and bodkins" is just a euphemism for "strange-shaped and colourful clothes not worn by normal grandfathers". In Britain, you see, older chaps mostly adopt a uniform of shapeless beige clothes, cut to a 1943 style. (The beige is an unfortunate choice really, as it tends to show up the dribble and other stains rather easily). I think that post-war generation like to conform. But then came the Hippies and Freaks! Ah, 1968.
Perhaps I'll post you my picture with a "ruffle" or "bodkin" in evidence, and you will never take me seriously again. :-)
Like you, I had a previous life in IT, which included programming early on. Although I started programming as a hobby, writing basic then assembler with a ZX81 and an Amstrad, I have to say I came to prefer Cobol and other less algebraic languages than assembler. This probably shows up the same character flaw that led me to start WW with machine tools rather than hand tools.
Unlike the instigator of this thread, I do like precision, in WW as in other crafts. Those neat dovetail joints shown in a previous posting were machine cut; but could have been handcut. They look the same, especially to a person unfamiliar with WW. Precision can be achieved with different tools which in turn require the associated skills. Which tool/skills are best? At bottom its moot, as "best" can only be measured against a personal scale of preference, when there is a choice.
Those hand tool apprenticeships can be rather long though.
Richard Jones and Charles S made the best point when they said that its good to have all the skills you can muster for all tool types.
Some would have it that handtool skills are better because machine tools are too automated or the electricity might fail. Well, I suppose so; but a skill is a skill and hands too can fail when age creeps up or the Mafia get impatient concerning the loan.
Myself, I'm slowly now obtaining handtools and the skill/experience to use them well. It is enjoyable and satisfying, also opening the door to some styles of furniture that would be difficult or time-consuming to achieve with machines (green woodworking for instance). But machine tool skills are quicker in many circumstances for "ordinary" furniture; and can allow you to do precise work in a much shorter learning time. As RIDave put it, "you will make (handtooled) rubbish for some years" (or words to that effect).
Last point - perhaps tools don't have to pay for themselves in terms of the finacial worth of the furniture made or the labour saved doing so. Perhaps they can just be acquired and their use enjoyed for its own sake? Work is a filthy invention of the Victorians you know and (being a prerenial 15 year old) I prefer play.
Lataxe, a bit of a Situationist
>In Britain, you see, older chaps mostly adopt a uniform of shapeless beige clothes, cut to a 1943 style. (The beige is an unfortunate choice really, as it tends to show up the dribble and other stains rather easily).
That's acceptable there? I should move! I don't dribble much yet and I only wipe my hands on my socks (furthest down I could get and still get them clean).
>Perhaps I'll post you my picture with a "ruffle" or "bodkin" in evidence, and you will never take me seriously again. :-)
Again? Please. :)
>I came to prefer C**** and other less algebraic languages than assembler.
You said the dirty word...
>Richard Jones and Charles S made the best point when they said that its good to have all the skills you can muster for all tool types.
That's what I'm starting to realize.
>Some would have it that handtool skills are better because machine tools are too automated or the electricity might fail.
Don't laugh. Here in Ontario we reached our limit yesterday with A/Cs as the mercury hit 32C. Being outside city limits, my place is the first to lose juice.
>Last point - perhaps tools don't have to pay for themselves in terms of the finacial worth of the furniture made or the labour saved doing so. Perhaps they can just be acquired and their use enjoyed for its own sake? Work is a filthy invention of the Victorians you know and (being a prerenial 15 year old) I prefer play.
Lataxe, I thought by "ladywife" that you meant you were married...
Seriously though, my Dad always had a bronze placque in his shop that read: "The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys." Maybe that had some affect on my values. Hmm. :)
Andy
Andy,
I did marry the ladywife, before some other chap snatched her up. However, it's taking a very long time for the dowry to come through (15 years so far) so I send her out to work. As she is Very Clever and also Able, she earns lots more than even I did. This is all good for the toy box.
Lataxe, a toy boy, in many ways.
Assembler, COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal, Perl, awk, C, C++, C#, and various database languages. I've worked with 'em all, published in most, and founds some best for some jobs, and some best for others. If you want to parse usernames out of web logs, I doubt you could do it faster in assembly language than I can in Perl. Heh. Then again, the graphics showoff utility I did back in the late '80s, complete with a help screen and attract mode in a 4K COM program, could only have been written in assembler.
It's all about picking the right tool for the job.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I must be really old, I started off programming in binary.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
The closest thing I came to binary programming was front-panel bootstrapping a PDP8, punching in the loader code in hex. Ya got me. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I'm older - we had a punch tape, valve-driven computer when I was at school. Some insurance firm gave it to us because they got one with transistors and the old one was using more in electricity than the premiums they took.
There was a major upgrade to our Heat Engine during my second year in the 6th form - we got punch cards.
And we really did have to programme them in binary! They caned us if we got a card wrong. They cost money you know; and boys' nether regions soon heal up.
Lataxe, a computing Neanderthal
Remember core memory and drum memory? Our binary was done with toggle switches, they did'nt trust us with punch cards. I kept a model 33 teletype with paper tape until the early 80's.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Boy o boy you guys are old, I thought that my Cobol F and RPG2 was old and they actualy gave me a degree for that . We learned cobol on a fortran machine(talk about strange compiles) and we fought for time on 6- 029 key punches while the teacher had an 099 in his office -the rat- but we survived. I recently noticed that Adam C posted, maybe he found an abacus in an old shop for doing sums? Pat
Maybe he does what I do for the big numbers, take my shoes off.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
These days with prices as they are you're gonna need a lot of friends and their feet. If any have 12 toes, there's your bonus for the year. Pat
It's been tough since my helper 15 fingers Louie had his terrible accident. However the dog ate the severed bits and his math skills have improved considerably. Picture of calculator below. One drawback is that it takes a lot of plutonium to keep his eye's glowing like that.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
You are are a joy, at 02:17, Keep the home fires burning, good nite Sir. Pat
I have to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes long enough to reply to this.
Whose math skills have improved, Louie's or the dog's?
>Assembler, COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal, Perl, awk, C, C++, C#, and various database languages. I've worked with 'em all,
John, I've used all those languages as well (except C#). The only ones I ever cared for were C and ASSembly, but then, I'm a hardware/systems guy. User interfaces are for sissies. :)
A colleage challenged me to a program duel with our laptops for a test application on an IBM production floor years back... C vs ASSembler. It was an embarassing loss for him. :) Lets hope I can become even half as proficient with my joinery.
>It's all about picking the right tool for the job.
*That* makes sense and probably applies to WW as well.
Andy
Nah. We're way off the topic of woodworking, but the idea that Johnny has learned advanced skills from all those video gams is bogus. I know, someone's written a whole book claiming Johnny's gaming will make him a high-tech superstar. Those of us who actually hire high tech superstars find Johnny's got lightning reflexes and fast thumbs, but little else to show for his years in front of the tube.Pete
Carpal tunnel and tendonitis, just two more reasons an employer would run the other way.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Cadid,
The path is a one-off made by a local woman who specialises in the art. It consists of coloured pebbles in a special cement, arranged in a pleasing naturalistic fashion. Mind, it wasn't cheap, especially since the ladywife has now commissioned another local artisan to provide handmade stain glass windows to put in the porch, matching the climbing rose motif of the path.
I could have had a Lamello jointer 1st class and a Special Shed to worship it in, for the moolah she's spent! Also many biscuits and even a Special Glue Bottle.
Still, she indulges me in other ways, in return for my acquiescense to ornate paths and such.
Lataxe, nesting happily.
The first five years using only teeth and a fingernail sharpened on a stone. After all only by achieving proficiency with these could one hope to master the mallet and bowsaw.
Boss Krunk, lataxe and Dgreen,
You guys are cracking me up. LOL. I particularly enjoyed the tooth and finger nail bit.
After reading the reposting of the origional poster's post. I think that I see his issue with these jigs........ The instructions. After reading the instructions for 10 minutes I began making flawless joinery using the Kreg system. I enjoyed a simular experience with my dovetail jig. I feel sorry for the person who requires such a huge investment of time to figure out a comercialy produced jig.
But then if we assume it takes 2 years to become profecient with a plane I suppose a few days is reasonable to grasp using a template and pattern bit.
I can only hope that some day I will become open minded enough to shun all modern gadgetry. Perhaps it is only through disdain that we can achieve shuch enlightenment.
Mike
Mike,
Thats good advice you're givin' there - RTFM.
Of course, "real" skill cannot be acquired via manuals and must be absorbed by standing next to a guru whilst repeating, "Yes, Master" a lot, preferably with big gooey eyes and one's incredulity organ switched off.
The trouble is, some gurus are actually rather wise, under all that pomp and stern gazing.
Lataxe (an ordinary person of no great ambition - Stalin had ambition).
At 65 I will make a pronouncement, WE ALL CUT TO THE MARK. I use every normal hand and power tool at my disposal and some special old world tools. No matter, this is not like golf where the next magic aid/driver/iron or glove can cut 5+ strokes from your game. You must develop SOME skills. This takes time and envolvment. Precision comes later.* Never fear (as I have stated prior) when I make a shop wall case, I will do lock joints on the router table but a heritage piece for the kids may mean me riding a #45 or #55 for days to fit the bill. Regardless of the task we still cut to the mark(or fit), I don't care how you make the mark! Thanks for the joy of this thread. Pat
*I have sent many poor fit pieces into my shop wood stove (even in summer) destroys the evidence you know.
Setup and operation of that machine makes someone a machine operator, not a woodworker, since there is nothing done to the wood specifically by the person and that machine poops out a finished product. If there's any design, layout, cutting/shaping/boring/fitting, etc and assembly being done, it's not the same thing. For a production shop, that would be OK if the end product meets spec, has some durability, aesthetic quality and/or integrity. For someone who derives pleasure from shaping the parts of a piece and assembling it, not so much. If you're saying that all woodworking must be done by hand in order to be valid, I disagree strongly and I think I'm not in the minority.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You're right.
A line that is frequently blurred on this forum is the distinction between bulk cabinetry and fine stand-alone furniture. There is a GULF between the two.
Jigging up to build one piece of fine furniture is usually more difficult than simply laying out the joints and cutting them directly.
You would enjoy working with a friend of mine, who insists that he can make any piece of furniture with only an axe. Of course, he can; but one must ignore some of the rough edges.
Presumably you have given up use of a motor vehicle, television and other such "jigs" in favour of shanks pony, which not only provides an uncomplicated mode of transport but would also allow you to go and see all those televised events live, with your own eyes....? And you will laugh in the face of those who must learn to drive the new aircar or spacehopper every now and then.
Incidentally, what are you doing partaking of communication modes within the rather complicated (albeit precise-as-anything) electronic ether, when you should surely be standing on the top of a hill waving a semaphor flag or two; or merely shouting?
****
Perhaps it is possible to make even fine furniture with only one's hands and teeth, a la beaver? One could feel an almost pure surge of superiority over the hoi polloi with their saw and chisel fangles, then. Of course, it might take a century or two to learn the skills, let alone make something that functions. Meanwhile, the world in general may have moved on a bit.
Lataxe
Don't pay attention to the guys who tell you because you use the internet that logically you must also use the latest in shop robotics, jigs, etc. to do your woodworking.
These guys rarely finish shopping much less a woodworking project. I could build a 1:1 replica of a battleship with the wood that gets wasted tuning and zeroing in a jig to run one workpiece.
Edited 5/17/2006 3:57 pm ET by charlesstanford
There is not much of anything about using pocket screws that is portable to other hand-cut joinery.
They're great in a production environment, but I can't see where they would be all that satisfying to the patient craftsperson enjoying a hobby. If you jig up all the joinery, build projects from canned plans, then what really is left to enjoy?
Not much as far as I'm concerned.
"If you jig up all the joinery, build projects from canned plans, then what really is left to enjoy?"My first M&Ts & dovetails were hand made. It was slow work, but rather enjoyable. I still do that on occasion. Making them with my mortising chisels & drill press, tablesaw tenoning jig, & router with dovetailing tool is even more pleasurable. It is also faster & more precise which allows me to be more productive as well as do a better job, all of which are sources of pleasure. What's to complain about here?Another source of pleasure for me is designing my projects. That probably isn't for everyone. If I find a canned plan that I like enough, I will make that item & enjoy doing that also. I must confess that I even used bugle head (drywall) screws in pocket holes. Still holding. I enjoyed that, too.Cadiddlehopper
Several of my customers have asked where I get my plans and I get a bit boastful when I tell them that I've never used a "canned plan". Designing a functional and well built piece that incorporates the customers desires is 90% of the fun. The other 90% comes when the plans get translated into a finished piece.
In an earlier post, I said that each of us has our own reasons for doing this. No one has it right and no one has it wrong.
In a recent piece, I substituted four drywall screws for the pocket screws in a support piece. It may need to be removed someday and - since few homeowners have square drive screwdrivers - I gave them something with a good old #2 phillips - lol.
Edited 5/21/2006 7:28 pm by Dave45
Maybe we drink water from the same source!Cadiddlehopper
Sheetrock screws have a lot of holding power, the reason for not using them in pocket joinery is that they are threaded all the way up the shank making it more difficult for the screw to pull the joint tight and the bugle head increases the chance of splitting the wood.
I am aware that you are correct. Increasing the chance of a split is not the same as actually splitting. The bugle head probably has less chance of splitting the wood than a flat head does, yet flat head screws are sold for pocket joinery. I seldom make a pocket joint. When I do, it is not a critical joint, so I don't sweat the finer points except to countersink for the head. Clearance between thread crest and bore has not been a problem yet. If I were a serious pocket joiner, I would not use flat or bugle head screws.Cadiddlehopper
That was why I said it increases the chances rather than WILL split the wood. It seemed obvious from your post that the sheet rock screws had worked well for you. Most drill bits/cutters intended for pocket hole use cut a flat bottomed hole to match the flat headed screw, some companies (Steelex for one) give you a choice of tapered or flat in their bits.
So, you aren't busy this evening either.I have drill bits for both types of hole. If I ever rebuild my kitchen cabinets, I will undoubtedly make flat bottom holes (spotfaces or counterbores). I think we agree on the nuances of the joint.Cadiddlehopper
Waiting for dinner to finish cooking !!
Are you related to Clem by any chance ? Sure brings back side splitting memories!
By adoption. I adopted the name.Cadid
Mr Hopper,
You are an unapologetic hedonist and not fond of hair shirts, I'll guess. I see you, in my mind's eye, lying on a couch to operate your many woodworking tools, as a pleasant young person feeds you peeled grapes. Every now and then, you belch contentedly and deliver another small masterpiece.
The local priests will be giving you disapproving glances and putting your name on their lists, of course. You will probably not be allowed, now, into Woodworking Heaven, whatever that is. They may attempt to burn your furniture, in a ritual fashion.
***
On the other hand, I'm told the endorphins give one quite a high, after one puts one's scourge away and mops up the worst of one's blood. And sometimes the priests allow you to whip some other poor sinner. Pleasure comes in many guises.
Lataxe, a heretic.
Your judgment is a bit over the top. Hedonistic, yes; militantly hedonistic, no. There is a certain hedonism about creating a small masterpiece though, no matter the method used. I won't say anything about WW heaven. Finally, if I belch, I ask for pardon.Cadiddlehopper
This is no fun. RIDave hasn't posted since the begining. I think we were baited, he must have been trying to elict a response.
Oh well, it was still fun to carry on so.
Mike
Cad,
I always get carried away with my imagination. I knew, really, that it was unlikely that you had a couch, grape-peeler or even a tendency to belch.
But you obviously understand enjoyment, for which understanding I offer my admiration. That other kind of enjoyment, which is all struggle with plenty of self-denial, is a bit foreign to my nature and perhaps to yours.
Lataxe
"...other kind of enjoyment, which is all struggle with plenty of self-denial..."So, you are a philosopher! Actually, I have had a portion of both & recognize which I like best. No hair shirts.Cadiddlehopper
Cad,
I like to chop logic and practice the rhetoric, oh yes. It started when I was but a lad, with all those excuses to me mam, after she found me out.
If only FWW would get Daniel Dennett to write an article on the evolution of tools. Or Thomas Kuhn could be asked to talk about paradigm shifts in cabinet making theories, to the benefit of all.
Lataxe, amateur sophist and admirer of the Schoolmen.
You & Daniel both chop logic too fine for me to keep up. I had a neat little volume at one time which summarized the ideas of most of the "great" philosophers. That they had all these ideas before there was much scientific knowledge makes me think of blind men describing an elephant. It was even more impressive how it was so well summarized in such a small volume.Cadid
To summarize the preceeding messages:-
It's not what you think you are saying that matters, it's what you do say; and
it's not what you do say, it what others think you have said!
Nuff said.
I've read this post 3 times, plus the responses, and I still think it's bizzarre. A troll, maybe? All right, I'll bite.
There are a lot of different types of woodworkers here with many different goals. You haven't explained where you fit in, but I'd think twice about putting out statements like this without more context.
Am I going to claim that the veteran cabinet guys don't have "real skills" because they use pocket screws? Lots of woodworkers couldn't do what they do.
Am I going to claim that people who've learned to use jigs effectively haven't mastered any skills? The Shaker workshops were full of jigs, and their Colonial predecessors used jigs too I personally get a lot of enjoyment out of rediscovering some of them.
How would a dovetail not be a precision joint? Folks who have fitted up a deep carcase with dovetails might think differently.
Just curious, how are you going to use your mallet and chisels on that plywood you were looking for in your first (of 4 so far) FWW post?
Pete
In that case even when you're wrong you're right...
[i]Buy yourself a mallet, utility knife, a set of chisels, pencil, and sharpening stones....and practice. You would not enter a marathon without training, and you can not expect to develop joinery skills without practice. Guaranteed you will do very bad work for a few years, but you will learn. The satisfaction, and the real skills you will develop are worth the effort.[i/]
Any real Woodworker worth his salt wouldn't buy himself a mallet, chisels, pencil and utility knife, he would make all these tool himself.
We could also go back to carving stone wheels just as Neanderthal Man did a million years ago, and in a few years, we could become very good at that too.
But why?
Santa Barbara,CA
Any real Woodworker worth his salt wouldn't buy himself a mallet, chisels, pencil and utility knife, he would make all these tool himself.
We could also go back to carving stone wheels just as Neanderthal Man did a million years ago, and in a few years, we could become very good at that too.
Other day, me find shiny rock. Shiny rock hard, heavy. Accidently put shiny rock in dancing light I char meat on. Next time hot circle in sky came, shiny rock shaped different. Looked like way hard water after out in hot circle in sky too long.
Me take shiny-rock-looked-like-hard-water-in-hot-circle-too-long, and pushed on rough rock, then smooth rock, till shiny rock cut hair on arm. Then I beat my head on arm-hair cutting shiny rock to cut tree down.
And then I built a chippendale!
so many woodworkers are searching for the perfect jig or joinery tool''
Yep here too.. I'm trying to grow this rectunglar tree...
Way back at Message 13 RIDave charged that we got away from his subject & rightly so. I don't blame him for dropping out. It was a bit difficult to identify his question, but I think he asked, "Does using machine tools teach or increase woodworking skills?" If meeting a reasonable completion date for a project is a skill worth developing, the answer is "yes." If we limit the discussion to manual skills, we might answer with a very firm "perhaps." It does require developing some nerve to move the hand in the direction of a powerful, fast cutting device. Can't we count that?
I shall not live long enough to learn all the WW skills that exist -- carving, for instance -- nor learn to use all power tools. I've learned some skills, used some tools. The greatest pleasure comes from applying those skills AND TOOLS but only to the level that satisfies me personally unless I have a customer which I may never. I also have to be careful not to set my standards too high for myself or there will be the disappointment of never attaining them. To my satisfaction, most people who see my output express admiration. I feel fortunate.
Learning or developing skills is not our raison d'etre. It can be pleasurable, it can be otherwise. Learning to carve in order to make a piece that looks like 17th Century would not be my pleasure, so I avoid developing that skill by moving on to pseudo-Craftsman or contemporary styles.
Standards of construction were aired out in our posts. I do try to keep those high without nursing the details to death. Maybe we should start another discussion meant to be exclusively along those lines.
Cadiddlehopper
Metod,
"Let's do some guessing about their 'logical skills', say, in woodworking"
My first thought is to say something silly like maybe those advanced logic skills will finally give us the answer to 'right tilt/left tilt' or 'pins/tails' first. On the other hand, however, recently I've been watching turning techniques on thewoodworkingchannel and slowly discovering some of the tricks and processes to create some really fabulous pieces....someone had a vision and had to layout a process to achieve that vision. Perhaps that is an example of where logical skills could contribute to woodworking
I feel like I need to buy a vowel, Metod. Requires software? I prefer handtools but I think that I've got my North American-style contractor tablesaw about as well-maintained, tweaked, and "dialed-in" as it could ever possibly be. It's pretty much an accurate, cabinet-making machine if you want it to be. (I mostly just use it for ripping). Now you're saying that I require software to do that? I don't get it,...
I will admit that software can be a great aid for some things, and occasionally I write my own for the Macintosh. For instance, I downloaded a cutlist to board foot calculator for the Mac that sucked so bad I just wrote my own in RealBasic.
Ed,
I think Metod was refering to wetware rather than software - the squidgy wet logic-chopper behind our eyes. ;-)
Lataxe
Metod,
Of course not: they would have to be Cricket stats.....
Cheers!
James
Metod,
No, my friends and I like to discuss important questions such as, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin"? This was a Big Issue in the 11th century and is still important today!
When we fail to find an anwer, the conversation turns to woodworking, Photoshop procedures and cosmology (the latest fashion in academic courses for Old F*%rts provided by Lancaster University, just yonder from Galgate).
Then the beer lays us low and we snore for a bit.
Lataxe, intellectual snob.
PS Cricket is for posh folk, whilst football is for the hoi polloi and can anyway lead to arguments of a physical kind; so we stick to the discussion of woodworking, which can be idealogically dangerous enough, as you know.
Edited 5/29/2006 3:37 pm ET by Lataxe
I have read many comments by some woodworkers extolling the beauty and satisfacion of using hand tools immitating old time woodworking methods.
Fine - but do you really think those old timers (who in reality, like many of us were trying to earn a living) would be bashing away with mallet and chisel if they were here today?
Not bloody likely
IF an elephant had wings it would be a big-a$$ed bird.
"Do you really think those old timers would be bashing away with mallet and chisel if they were here today?"Keep in mind that their customers wanted the best. Furniture wasn't just a place for socks and underwear. It was an important tool to get your children the ability to "marry up". By one way of thinking, having the trappings of aristocracy then was as critical to the success of your children as a college education is today- not a given, but a significant leg up in society and well worth the investment.The furniture in my house - made in the last 100 years or so- is generally crap. Maybe those makers, like me, would have benefitted from "bashing away" a bit. For all our fancy tools, we're not exactly Chippendale are we?Style aside, they made formal chairs that take a week today in matter of days then. Goddard and Townsend made their block front secretaires in a matter of 4-6 weeks, not the 4-6 months such things take today.So before we arrogantly claim 18th c masters would have whole heartedly welcomed the modern table saw, we should attempt to understand their accomplishments......and ours.Adam
Truely we may have the hand skill today but we surely do not have the production capacity of the past. I look at the two table saws and the log splitter( to boards) up in Sturbridge. I spent at least two hours there (much to the chagrin of my late wife) marveling at the inginuity of those water drived saws. This post slanted to the electronic/ you broght it back and I asked if you had found an abacus to suit, what say you do. How did the workers do their sums, it is a part of the story. Pat
Well said Adam.
You're view is rather romantic, but I think the fundamentals of economics are the same now as the were back then. Clients wanted the best then as they do now. The one that could provide the best to the most would make more money. I think given the opportunity many of the 18c masters would work like the masters today. I think it's important to note that most 18c master would have had numerous aprentices working for them.
It's about using the right tool for the right job. Sometimes the tool is a router, and sometimes it's a hand plane.
However...
I think you are correct. We could all benefit from a little bashing away. I think one thing that separates the 18c masters, todays pros, and accomplished amateurs from the rest of us is a connection to the material. (Romantic?) More time and feel.
Furnituremaking, at the high-end today, is remarkably uncompetitive (with other furnituremakers that is). I rarely find myself bidding against another custom maker. Very, very rarely. Most prospects I meet are thrilled to have found somebody at all.
As long as the vast majority of your prospects don't hold the view that a department store piece is a reasonable alternative, then you can make money working with whatever kit of tools turns you on. If you are expected to come in only a little above good department store pieces then your shop is going to have to look like a mini version of the factories that build department store furniture. How else could it work?
Extremely fine furniture requires so many hand steps that, in an overall sense, the amount of time saved by using machines is relatively small. Yes, you can save some time at the milling stage. No doubt about it. But your router can't carve a ball-and-claw foot or a cartouche. You can have weeks invested in carving (veneering, etc.) a piece; the time spent milling the stock or using a machine on the run-of-the-mill joinery is practically insignificant.
Edited 6/1/2006 3:06 pm ET by BossCrunk
"I think the fundamentals of economics are the same now as the were back then."
Are they? Tell me how. I'm pretty familiar with the economics then and I can't think of a single similarity. Not saying you're wrong, but I don't see what you're saying.
They worked in a barter economy, they typically worked out of their homes, most working out of their living rooms. Most businesses were probably family affairs. The apprentice system offered them nearly free labor. They had outrageously diverse capabilities. Their customers weren't so quality conscious as style conscious and they were willing to spend a large portion of their income on style (some like Jefferson, went into debt over it). They often sold items they didn't make. Many became very wealthy. This was an upper middle class job. Does any of this sound similar to you?
I never much cared for the wood intimacy "soul of the tree" thing cause it sounds like such baloney to me. I always liked what Roy Underhill said- "trees are evil and deserve to be punished". That said, I agree that a certain level of intimacy with the material is unavoidable when working by hand. Having never really used ww machines, I couldn't say if working by hand is very different in this regard, but I suspect so.
Adam
P.S. BTW, I'm glad you think I'm romantic. How about telling my wife! She thinks I'm an emotionless engineer!
This whole, tired 'economic' comparison one reads on these forums is borne of the notion that if I can make 'more' of someTHING (because I have machines) then I can make more money.
Ain't necessarily so. Strongly depends on what one is making and the reputation one is trying to cultivate.
If commissions are falling off the backend of the order book because of the wait then a smart business person will look at reasonable strategies to shorten the time frame while still maintaining quality and reputation. Sometimes it's a viable strategy to just let the orders fall off. This is an issue for maybe a handful of fine furnituremakers (the recently deceased Art Carpenter would be one). Maybe Buster is one of these lucky few.
Most of these debates occur because all woodworking gets lumped together - kitchen cabs, built-ins, architectural millwork, and fine standalone furniture. The latter is different. Not necessarily 'better' just different.
Most guys really working at the high-end do still use machinery but as I said before on really complex pieces requiring a lot of handwork the time saved is not terribly material and really doesn't affect the quoted commission price in any material way, if at all.
Are they? Tell me how. I'm pretty familiar with the economics then and I can't think of a single similarity.
As Boss pointed out a little later in the thread... My assumption is that if the craftsman can produce more, he can make more. You make 'money' by making more than you need. Power tools greatly speed work up, and add a level of certainty to a process.
The idea of what something is 'worth' is much more complicated than this. As Boss also pointed out reputation will affect the 'worth' of a peice. I was refering to fundamentals.
P.S. BTW, I'm glad you think I'm romantic. How about telling my wife! She thinks I'm an emotionless engineer!
She should try talking to you about woodworking... :)
Its just so that the economy was different then. What you are talking about may have been very difficult to succeed at with transportation what it was. I never really thought about it, but that may have been one of the biggest differences. So in a size limited market, they were probably better off staying small and flexible.But you're right (and I'm wrong) in your premise that they would have welcomed power tools. They would have and they did! It destroyed their way of life and the "furniture" at your local Walmart was the end result. I'm not interested in arguing just for the sake of it. I think your original point was right, i.e. historically accurate. I guess I'd only like to add, productivity isn't a universally better idea. It really depends on the market. And markets change.But in any case, I appreciate your posts because they got me thinking. So thanks for that.Adam
It is a question of "the greater good". True machines, and the mass production they made possible, has all but erased the craft of furniture making from our world; however before the machines the poor and middle class seldom had more than a table, 2 or 3 chairs, and maybe a chest of drawers. No cabinets, bed, coffee table, night stand, etc...
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
You make it sound like a hand chopped mortice is somehow better than a machined one. I have made repairs to some very well made antiques and the mortices and tennons are never as perfect as a machined joint. I'm not sugesting that machined joinery lasts longer, just that it dosen't matter. It is certian that the old world greats would have used machines to speed up production, the top craftsmen in the world today use a combination or techniques depending on what is best for that senario.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Don't know how many formal chairs you have made. There are at least two reasons why I'm not in a hurry to make one:
1) I lack the talent
2) the mortises are outrageously complex. Can your mortising machine cut mortises in a twisted, curved chair back, in which the mortise is angled in two directions from the reference face? And bear in mind- While you might be able to make a jig for such work, it may not pay for itself in 4 chairs or even eight. And the next set may require a different jig. There are probably 12-16 such mortises in a formal chair and no three are alike, so you could be looking at 6-8 jigs?
When we talk about these issues, especially when terms like "romantic" are used, we often fail to look closely enough to see the complexities of period work. So I appreciate you mentioning an example. To answer your question, in terms of creating quality joints in a large variety of complicated projects (the type we would universally define as Fine Wood Working), absolutely hand cut mortises are superior. They are FASTER.
We can't just look at how long it takes to rip a 1x8 by 10 in two on a table saw and a hand saw and decide based on that alone which tool is superior. We have to look in terms of the total project, the lifestyle of the woodworker, etc.
I do this sort of work, so I'm forced to deal with the "complexities". But my knee jerk was always like yours- the tools are crude and slow and unproductive. As I've learned more, I've been surprised by what I've found. So just from my experience (and its not much experience) we should be cautious with any pronouncements about which is "better". Moreover, I think woodworkers would be better served individually by considering more carefully RIDave's posts. (I didn't really understand the first one too well). I think its good to think about these things and learn more about them.
What do you think?
Adam
Adam, I think 18th C craftsmen would do just what they did. Change as they saw fit. If we could bring one into our century they would probably use a mixture of tools, hand and machine.
If evidence were found of 18th C tools and techniques not previously known would you try them?
As for economies the constant is mans desire for success and its trappings.
The past is another country.
Adam C is right to point out that the socio-economic life of various yesteryears is far removed from that of today, in Westernised democracies at least. There is no point in judging WW standards against associated economics or labour relations now and then. In which case, Adam needs to apply his no-comparison rule universally and judge current furniture making entirely on current conditions, not on spurious comparisons with pieces that are 100+ years old.
BossCrunk makes the telling point - there are different WW styles and qualities with very different demands. In practice, those demands will dictate the nature of tools and skills required by various woodworkers, not to mention features of the associated economics.
Pragmatically, many woodworkers will limit themselves to a "lesser" style or standard, for reasons of their (current) economics situation, available time or just plain choice. For example, I personally I would rather spread my time and talents over many activities than become a super-expert at only one. This may make me one of Boss's mediocre woodworkers but this is still a valid choice.
One observation that has perhaps not been made yet:
There is an assumption that because some old furniture has survived well (because it was well made) that all furniture made with those techniques/skill-sets/tools is well made. This ignores the many thousands of pieces that have not survived, probably for many reasons, including changing fashions, poor construction, bad design and inept use of difficult-to-use tools. The same will be true of today's furniture.
Lataxe
I have built some chairs. I think that all of them required tennons that were angled in at least one axis, and some required two axis (seat rail to leg). I use a tennoning jig for these multi axis tennons, the first one is a bit@# but after about 15 minutes of set up I can cut all of them (for one side of the chair) in a few minutes. I have never needed to cut angled mortices as I prefer the angle the tennon (as long as the angle isn't so much that it has cross grain in it). However I have seen Norm make angled mortises several times in his shop. And of course the origional Normite used a mortiser. It is actually very easy.The only tennons that I have not been able to do in a tennon jig or on the RAS are those in a curved piece where I couldnt cut the tennon before I cut the curve (for example bent laminations). and in those cases I use the band saw, tennon saw, chisels, and hand plane. I am not anti hand tools, I consistantly use the best tool and technique for the task.
Below is a pic of an angled tennon in a curved piece that I cut by hand. Personally I think it takes more experience and wood working knowlage to set up a machine to execute a complex machining process than to use hand tools. As evidenced by your belief that it is harder. The truth is that it is not so hard there are just a few principles that you have to learn. The number one non safety oriented rule in my shop it only measure if it is necessary. New wood workers seem overly reliant on rulers, tapes, angle finders, and calipers. All that complex multi angled joinery you think you can't do is super easy to lay out using only a full scale drawing and a traditional bevel gauge. Find the angle with the bevel gauge (don't measure it) and transfer it to the tennon jig or the mortiser. Same with the sizing of the tennon to the mortise.
Make sure that the next project you start is beyond your skill and requires tools and knowlage you don't have. You wont regret it.
Humph, I think I will use that as my signiture now.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
"New wood workers seem overly reliant on rulers, tapes, angle finders, and calipers."
Excellent point, and not only new wood workers fall into this trap.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
How true.
In fact I remember a late, very late, night reciently when I was trying to layout a complicated face frame (the stiles curved and I was trying to measure for the rails) and after probably an hour of messing around with the calculator and rulers I cut a hardboard and paper template and got the measurements in 15 minutes, using no rulers.
My point is that I am in no way above disregaurding my own best advise.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
There is no substitute for full-sized drawings whereby one can lay stock on the paper and make tickmarks where cuts need to be made or a pouncewheel run to indicate a cut line.
Edited 6/2/2006 10:10 am ET by BossCrunk
Not to mention I can stare at the picture and await devine inspiration for a solution to a unforseen problem. It works!Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
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