All,
As part of my rennaisance as a woodworker – one trying hand tools after a few years of machine tools – I would like to try making those important joints, tenons and dovetails, by hand.
These days there seem to be a lot of alternatives in the way of saws – eg Japanese versus Western; hand-made re-sharpenables versus factory-made hardpoints. Also, there are saws that may be used with guides, to help novices cut dovetails (for instance) true and square.
Before going mad with a tool catalogue, would Knots members care to give experience and opinion about the best (or just alternative) tool-routes into hand cut joinery?
Now before someone tells me so, in no uncertain terms, I know that the tools are just the start and that I will have to practice and try various techniques before the skills are acquired. This question is just about what tool set to begin with, since I must have some kind or other.
Thank you all in anticipation. (And if you like – chisels, similar questions).
Lataxe, born again (or will be).
Replies
I'll start with a thought about saws.
I have heard - and accept - all the logic about Japanese "pull" saws, but I always had trouble with true cuts. I finally bought a Pax conventional, "push" saw and every thing is fine now. (Well, almost.)
Conclusion - Don't assume that what is right for others is right for you. Try out both types and several mfgs.
Jerry
interesting isn't it? i have most of the power tools now and i'm moving toward the same "slippery slope" of learning about and aquiring hand tools. just learned to sharpen chisels and found out how nice it is to use a sharp tool. today there will be a veritas plane (my first) waiting on the steps when i arrive at home. i'm learning to cut dovetails, no doubt tenons and what not are just around the corner. i've been watching the rob cosman videos so naturally he makes the lie nielsen saw look like the ultimate in cutting ease. good luck!
Edited 6/28/2006 10:10 am ET by gmoney
Strange isn't, it I also have spent a couple thousand on power tools, and now I want to learn to use hand tools. There are too many restrictions with power tools. As usual I go at everything backwards.
Hi Lataxe
While the ideal number of handsaws to deal with dovetail and tenon cutting is 17, it is possible to get away with 11 if you are prepared make a few sacrifices.
Firstly, I would recommend that you get separate saws for tenons and dovetails.
Japanese pull saws are the easiest to use, that is, to cut to a line, but they are better suited to softwood and will tend to break teeth in hardwood if used without due care. The Z-saws are cheap yet will yield a superior performance even in the hands of a novice. I love these saws but grew frustrated in repeatedly having to replace the blades following a session with Jarrah or some other Australian hardwood.
So I began to use Western backsaws. I learned that the way one is set up - sharpened and set - is far more important that the brandname or cost. For dovetails I have a $10 vintage minor name brand (that I sharpened and set myself) that I much prefer to my LN Independence. In this case, both have the same minimal amount of tooth set, and the same 15 t.p.i. rip shape, but the LN cuts more aggressively and is harder to start. The vintage saw (you can substitute a number of names here - mine is a John Cotterill) cuts slower but is much smoother, better controlled, and thus easier to use.
Personally, I would pass on a Gent Saw style. I feel Western saws need to be driven forward, and the straight handle is better suited to pulling backward.
The crosscut teeth of a tenon saw sever fibres differently to that of a rip-filed dovetail saw. In a recent experiment, I noted that the crosscut saw cut fibres with less tearout in both soft- and hardwoods. This is relevant if the tenon saw is to be used to cut clean tenon shoulders.
Size (i.e. blade length) of saw is also important. Do you get an 8", 9", 10", 12" or 14" blade? (And you thought I was kidding about the 17 saws!) Longer blades result in less effort and potentially straighter cuts. But they are also heavier and more cumbersome to use.
If I were searching for the ideal set of saws, I would speak to Mike Wenzloff. He will not only advise you on the best solution, but be able to construct it (and execute this with great flair).
For reference, I have a 10", 12", and 14" crosscut tenon saws, and 8" and 9" rip filed dovetail Western saws. I also have several Japanese saws, and these are now reserved for softwood and delicate joinery.
I hope this helps.
Regards from Perth
Derek
p.s. Here is a crosscut tenon saw I recently re-handled.
View Image
I recently bought a Pax tenon saw from LV to do some joinery on my first chair attempt. I was hoping to use this saw to learn to cut dovetails, but after reading your post I am not sure it will work. Let me know how you feel. Can I use the tennon saw to learn technique, and make some nice drawers while I'm at it. It sounds like there is quite a difference in tenon and dovetail saws.
Hi Lataxe,
For vintage western-styled saws available through tool sellers, check Alf's list of links as they are UK-based.
http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/tooldealers.html
Note that there are a couple who sell new tools on that list, Adria and LN saws for instance, such as Mike Hancock at Classic Handtools. He also sell a line of Japanese saws. Of those, for fine joinery, perhaps the Douzuki 150mm Gold WDG150 is a good choice. The larger ones would be more appropriate for tenons.
I know Japanese saws get discussed from time to time on the UK Workshop forum and the threads often point to good choices and prices.
For either the LN or Adria, there are of course several UK sources. I mentioned Mike Hancock as I see his name come up on the UK forum quite often.
In general principle, I think you would do good to size the saws to the intended work. Larger and coarser for tenon cheeks, smaller and finer for DTs and other fine joinery. As to how large a saw for tenons, in part it depends on the work you do and also how thin the saw plate is. For instance, a 14" or longer vintage backsaw will have a progressively thicker saw plate unless you go back in time enough.
Also another cosiderations as regards vintage, is that saws seem to be fairly common at boot sales there, unlike around me. So that may be a good source for vintage as you can inspect them before spending.
Take care, Mike
Lataxe,
Interestingly, once you know how to cut dovetails you'll probably realize the tool, itself, is of minor importance. However, a good tool in the beginning is very important because a good tool provides great feedback and helps with the development of muscle memory.
Learning to cut dovetails is like learning to shoot pool (or snooker is you must). There is the process, form and then the equipment. Dovetails are greatly facilitated by a good process....from wood preparation, face identification, marking with appropriate tools, etc. (Ian Kirby does a great job on this)
Proper form, as in pool, is everything. The wrist stays stiff and is in line with the elbow and shoulder...while you push with the palm of the hand....and cut to both lines simultaneously...keeping the toe of the saw up.
The saw will tell you if it's cutting well. The grip / handle makes you hold it firmly(western saws). The slightest twist will be noticed. If you use a good marking knife, both the saw blade and the chisel will have a nice kerf to begin their work.
Personally, I like the LN saw but I'm sure there are several others that would have done just as well. I did try four cheaper saws before I bought the LN...including a Japanese that I tried with jigs..ugh! Good Luck
Thank you for your post. I am also very interested in the same info.
Thanks all for the info so far, which is already helping me to zero in on a saw or two. Conclusions so far:
* Try a japanese saw but don't expect miracles. (Could anyone suggest the best bet for fine dovetails in hardwood - afromosia - given Derek's misgivings)?
* Western style saws (ie with cutout handles) allow better control than japanese saws and are more resilient in hardwood.
* The way the saw is sharpened is as important as the saw quality. (Which presumably means hardpoint saws are out as they cannot be resharpened to a better profile).
* Choose a length/weight that is comfortable for me.
* Get the saws with the build and teeth for the task - there is no universal backsaw. (I will not be getting 17 or even 11 just now though, Derek)!
* A good saw will give feedback, to tutor my learning process.
****
Could I ask a couple of supplementaries at this juncture:
How difficult and time consuming is it to learn to saw-sharpen? Plane irons are one thing; but all those sawteeth!? Does a typical backsaw need sharpening very often?
Is it worth considering (or even building) a bowsaw, as per Tage Frid? Can good blades be easily got for these; and for different tasks such as tenons and dovetails?
Thanks once more.
Lataxe
Hi Lataxe,
My turn to cook lunch for the boys, so just one quickie response. I have no experience with the Japanese saws I pointed you to, but the following one from Joel at Tools for Working Wood is a winner:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS300.XX&Category_Code=TSJ
Take care, I'll be back...Mike
Ok, time for iced coffee, so...
I would recommend the Odate Japanese saw for hardwoods above any other I've used. Good saw.
The rest is a good summary of the thread to the point of your reply.
Could I ask a couple of supplementaries at this juncture:
Sure <g>
How difficult and time consuming is it to learn to saw-sharpen? Plane irons are one thing; but all those sawteeth!? Does a typical backsaw need sharpening very often?
Depending on the number of teeth, it's fairly easy. Your small joinery saw would be filed rip, which is the easiest profile. Lot's of good instruction on-line.
A decent saw doesn't need sharpened too often. Goes dull slowly. Depending on how much you use it and on what woods, perhaps a year, a little less/more.
Is it worth considering (or even building) a bowsaw, as per Tage Frid? Can good blades be easily got for these; and for different tasks such as tenons and dovetails?
Not for me. For me it is too difficult to keep from twisting the saw and cutting off-line. For you? No idea. If you can get your hands on one, give it a try. But as mentioned, give them all a try that you can rustle up. You may like a gent's saw as opposed to a western open handle or even the pulling of a Japanese saw. Who knows.
Take care, Mike
I've have been through the same process as you over the last 6 months. All of my power tools except the band saw and table saw are in the corner about to be listed for sale. Life is much better.
I have tried both Japanese and LN saws for dove tails. The Japanese work OK with one of the magnetic guides to hold the blade flat when cutting in hard wood. The LN is much better. Moreover, it comes straight and true. Any slight bend in the blade will throw off the cut.
Recently I got the videos by Jim Kingshott from Tools for Working Wood and the Cosman videos from LN. I learned so much just from watching them and how they approached the work. They are worth their weight in gold and more interesting to watch at night than most of the TV shows.
Lataxe,
About 10 years ago I decided to put lots of dovetails into a piece and went looking for a saw. Spent $10 on a cheap pressed metal german made gents saw with too few tpi (no one to talk to in those days so I just went for it with what I could get).
I did a practice piece by making a new box for my pipes that needed 8 sets of dovetails and had to sharpen the saw before I had finished. It took two goes to sharpen the saw so that it worked as well as the initial set. It now works better than new (all the problems associated with stamping a blade have been filed through)
I have now read a bit about how, and reckon that about half an hours reading from any of the really good advice on the web would sort most of the problems with the first 3-4 practices I did. I would try first on an inexpensive short saw - less teeth to get consistent and you wont feel like you are chopping through good steel.
dave
Lataxe
I wanted to learn to hand-cut dovetails. First I read everything I could find on the web. It took a while, and it was mutually contradictory, and much of it couldn't be understood unless you tried it. Finally I just went to the local Woodcraft store and bought a Japanese style saw. I went back to my shop and cut some dovetails. I cut three drawers in about a week of trying new things each time. All of them worked. It was far easier than I expected. It does take careful:
1- laying out and marking.
2- marking of the waste parts
3- marking of the four sides of each drawer
4- concentration while cutting
Best advice I could give is:
1- don't worry about the saw. Use any saw now, and get a better one later. Now is the time to get practice.
2- try to relax and enjoy the whole process (this is the hard part)
3- read the articles which tell you how to adjust the dovetails that didn't go quite right. eg
- if you cut one too small, glue in a shim.
- if they won't go together, put some pencil lead on them and see
where they are too high, and pare them down GENTLY.
- if they are just a little bit too small, you can use a pall peen hammer to spread out the end grain and close up the hole.(This is heresy but it works)
So go forth and cut some dovetails with the first dovetail saw that you lay your hands on. After cutting a few, you will relax, and then it becomes much more fun. The purpose of woodworking is not to abstain from mistakes, but TO HAVE FUN. MAKE LOTS OF CHIPS. ENJOY.
Let us know how things go. Use the saws of a few friends. Buy an expensive one later, after you have figured out what suits you best.
96
- if they are just a little bit too small, you can use a pall peen hammer to spread out the end grain and close up the hole.(This is heresy but it works)
well, if it is heresy it was put forth by a great american teacher and craftsman, none other than tage frid.
A ball peen hammer to spread end grain....." Ay yi yi, boy, that is verboten! What do think you are , an engine artificer, a bodger of Harley Davidsons or even a plane maker?
Philip Marcou
Your advice is so true. At a woodworking show I man was giving a short show on dovetailing and said, "remember, this is a craft, not a skill. It's like crocheting, you do not have to invent anything, you just have to practice it, but make 100 dovetails and you will be known as an expert dovetailer". We all concentrate on the commerial side of buying tools, but the doing it is the thing. My father-in-law made many, many things from wood, and when he died, his total wood shop value was very minimal, like a just a few dollars!
Oldtool,
Thanks for your reply to my old post on dovetail saws. It has been so long that I had almost forgotten about it. After all this time, you are the first and only person to comment on my post. Glad to see that there are two of us who agree. If you see the photos of Tage Frid cutting dovetails with that big bowsaw, you wonder how anyone could do it. It is the skill of the user that makes the most difference. I like the approach your father took to woodworking tools.It really was nice to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
I used to use Japanese saws, then after watching Rob Cosman last year at a wood show I switched to a western saw (He sold it that well). I own two, the Pax dovetail saw bought at LV, and a LN Carcas Rip saw.
Personally if I had to choose one to buy first I'd get the LN. I've been using it to cut all my dovetails and tennons for the last 6 months. It would make a great first saw.
The Pax saw is alright but it has a much wider kerf, and does not track as well. It probably needs some fine tuning, which I don't have time to do right now.
Buster
Hi Lataxe,
The goal is to be able to saw to the line (leaving it in tact), remove the line, or split it. This isn't really that hard a skill to develop but you need every possible advantage.
1) If you push your planes and work on a western bench, you'll have an easier time pushing your saws as well.
2) Derek's right. The saw must be matched to the work. I just finsihed an article for PW on this subject due out in a few months. I think it would help you so look for it. But an alternative approach is to buy any saw and then match wood to it. Count the number of teeth your new saw has in one inch. Then take 10 and divide it by that number. The result is the minimum thickness of stock you should work with that saw. So if it’s a 14ppi saw, 10/14ppi = 3/4" stock. This isn't a hard and fast rule, just a guide I've found helpful. And I only use it for joinery saws.
3) Look for a saw with a decent rake (like 10 degrees). That rake will help you begin your cuts accurately.
4) Back saws need regular sharpening. I think saw sharpening skill, like chisel sharpening skill, is part and parcel of learning to use the tool. So I recommend buying a very inexpensive Gent's saw and the smallest saw file you can get (4" double extra slim for example). I have a Crown Gent's saw. Its fine. You may find it needs a little touch up when you first get it. Alternatively, you may be better served buying a fine new saw just so you know how a sharp saw is supposed to work. But I'd still buy the Crown saw to practice on.
5) When you practice, forget about using zen to saw straight. Forget about where you stand or how you are holding the saw (a three finger grip, index finger pointing is traditional). Mark nice straight lines thru end grain and face grain on both sides (use a pencil at first, as knifed lines can grab your blade- its good later but not now). Place the saw at the corner and saw the corner out, advancing on both lines simultaneously. There's really no zen or muscle memory involved with this technique. It’s simple hand-eye coordination and a sure fire way to saw straight. Do this over and over again. You can use this same technique for 100% of your sawing. Regardless of the sort of sawing you are doing, using this single, simple technique will improve all your cuts. In 20 minutes of practice you should be able to hold a line more or less. With regular practice in a few months you should be able to achieve the basic goals.
6) A frame saw is an excellent training device since you learn very quickly that twisting the blade has no effect. Lay your saw down to fix miscuts.
Good luck with your hand saw foray.
Adam
Only 24 hours and already another nice pile of good advice; I love Knots. I’ve downloaded the 30588 page-so-far to peruse at leisure, so perhaps a detailed reply and the inevitable follow-up questions later.
Issue 183 of FWW has also been of use. By the heck – the lad’s used one o’ them dreaded tool reviews (of dovetail saws) and the associated master class on sharpenin’. No chance of my subscription being cancelled then. J
Hand tool use is really just another opportunity for me to play and I’m trying to avoid getting too idealistic about it. I do hope to enjoy both the learning and the eventually-acquired skills. But I won’t be giving up the machine tools and associated skills. Perhaps I’ll just need to put those earmuffs on less. J
At present I’m finishing all current projects, using my current methods, to clear the decks for a concerted period of hand tool building. The first item will be a Greene & Greene writing desk. This will see hand planes, saws and chisels used wherever possible. There will be a bit of practice first though, as I don’t want the afromosia that will be used to end up as tool handles!
Now I have to decide which dovetail saw I will ask my sister-in-law to buy for my birthday. (I am a naughty boy, as LN comes to mind, following the recommendations of some of you lads).
Lataxe
Just a couple more thoughts.
There seem to be differences in American and English tradition for drawermaking. Softer thicker woods used in USA, 1/2" Poplar & Pine?, thin hardwood used in UK, 5/16" quartered oak for the best work.
Uk dovetail saws used to have 20 or more teeth per inch.
There is one readily available Japanese Dozuki that works well in thin hardwood and it is only available (in UK) from the Craftsman's Choice, Thanet Tools. It is called the Sun Child and is a very reasonable price. approx £30. It works because the teeth are shorter and stouter than the usual softwood crosscut teeth. Dick Fine Tools have something similar, and so may the Japan Woodworker.
I encourage my students to try many saws and see which suits them best.
Being somewhat deficient at handsawing, I cut my dovetails, (sockets) on the bandsaw with a meat and fish blade. Very little set, therefore very nice finish, and perfectly square every time.....
David Charlesworth
Just a note of contrast here. I have between 30 and 40 open handled joinery saws from the UK, from the early 19th century through the end of it. One has 20, one 24 [and has a .016" saw plate] , but all the rest have between 17 and 19 ppi. My personal favorite is a Moulson. It was virtually unused when I got it and is a 17 ppi.
The Kenyon DT saw as found in the Seaton chest is 19 ppi. Fussy little buggers to cut in by hand once they get that many per inch.
But the point is the same. The thinner the material being sawn, higher ppi is a lot easier to saw.
Unless one uses a BS...
David, a couple quick questions. Do you mark and freehand the cut? I did some large chests with big DTs sometime back and marked and cut then freehand. They came out pretty good, but I don't think I would have tried it with smaller ones that way. Others I have done since on the BS were also larger ones, but I haven't ever tried smaller ones such as for drawers.
Also, you mention cutting the tails in with the BS...how do you do the pins?
Thank you, Mike
Mike, I've got a couple questions for you. (I apologize for hijcking the thread but I'm sure it will go back on topic).
I've been admiring the photos of saws that you made here and at Sawmill Creek. Beautiful tool-making. The question is: You obviously do a lot of saw filing - how often should you replace the file and what do you do with them when they're used up?
The background is: I could've sworn I read somewhere that you only use each face of the file only a couple times. Today I was filing a saw with a file I bought from http://www.vintagesaws.com - I forget which kind it is but it is like a Mercedes-Benz compared to my other saw files. Really nice file that cuts well. I can't imagine that it will be used up after using each face just a couple times. Jeez - the little boogers cost about $5 each. And the second part of the question - I'm making some scratch awls, birdcage awls, etc., out of some old, rusty, years-old saw files - any other good tool-making ideas for them?
Thanks, Ed (Sorry again for the hijack)
Edited 6/29/2006 11:11 pm by EdHarrison
Hi Ed,
Pete sells Bahco brand files--formerly a Sandvik brand. Now Snap-On owns the Bahco brand. You're correct, they are premium files. LN sells Grobet, another premium brand.
I use the files until they no longer cut or not cut efficiently and or the edges begin to chip out. In short, I completely use them up as for filing. Even among the premium brands, some from the same box will last longer than others. I assume it is a hardness issue.
You have a good idea. I assume they are hardened all the way through. But as I have never tried to repurpose them, I don't know. Awls seem like a good idea for them. Small flat files such as those used in a saw jointer could well be made into marking knives. Larger saw files could be perhaps made into small floats for plane making. I know a guy who makes large flat files into hunting knives.
That's about all I can think of--but it's been a long several days and the ol brain is dead. If I think of something else, I'll let you know.
Good luck on the tool making--it's a blast.
Take care, Mike
Ed
This year I have been using the Grobet files from LN. These have replaced the Nicholson files I was using before. While I do not file remotely as many saws as Mike (in fact, I have only done about 2 or 3 small backsaws this year), the Grobet files seem to bite for longer. I am still using the same (first) file.
Regards from Perth
Derek
While I don't file any saws, I do file a considerable amount of metal, some hard some soft and I have been impressed with the quality and longevity of Pferd files
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Ed, uses for non working files? Many, for the likes of me. Such as lathe turning tools, and metal scrapers. The steel used for files is high carbon steel, so one can even heat and bend them if wanted, then harden and re-temper.So they are vunerable to working heat and care is needed when sharpening by grinding not to overheat.
In fact the only "proper" lathe tools I have are deep gouges, the rest being all shapes made from files.
I would ahve thought awls from files not such a good plan- too thin-snappable.
Triangle shape and round files can be made into scrapers and burnishers, although I prefer needle bearings for burnishers.
The best way to grind these turkeys into submission is with a belt grinder-but no doubt you recall those words from me in the past.Philip Marcou
Mike,
Paul Richardson does his freehand, I prefer to use a long tapering triangle of MDF or ply at suitable slope against a straight fence. Marking in pencil, then line up by eye and use a 4" length of masking tape to stop the work sliding relative to the MDF.
The remarkable thing is the fine finish from the 3 TPI meat and fish blade, even on 5/16" hardwood. Technically completely wrong! but it works for me.
Handsaw and pare, like the rest of the world who cannot saw perfectly!
best wishes,
David
Thanks, David!
Take care, Mikewho has never really cared what is technically wrong [to others]
Lata, man of discerning tastes, you have been well plied with diverse advice in traditional Knots fashion so I have notalot to say other than to point out that these days there are good choices-you can either go commercial or bespoke made to order, to assemble your bevy of not less than 11 saws. If it were me, I would provide the well known and respected resident Knots Saw Maker with salient details like the timbers you are using in addition to the hard and abrasive AfroRmosia,( not forgetting a list of outstanding orders from the Controller of Purse Strings)and also look at the quality commercial guys like Lie Nielsen.
Personally I have grown up with my fall of Spear And Jackson saws,but their use these days is restricted to but a minor part of the dovetailing process- the major part being done by r/h index finger which must point at the green button.I have become quite blase about the whole thing.
So you will apreciate the fact that the above advice is the most valuable given so far, as it is entirely unbiased , since I have never used an Oriental type and only seen assorted Paxes, L/N's etc in shops and magazines.
(;)(;)
I have been gleaning knowledge from this thread also, My dovetail experience has also been of the index finger and green button flavor. I may not use all this hard won and generously shared knowledge for dovetails but the which, whys and wherefores of the different saw types and brands will be most useful. I have a Pax gents saw which I like but have found limited use for and several Japanese saws for which I have found a myriad of uses for. Most of the woods which keep the wolf away from my door are pretty mundane Oak, Maple and Cherry, but the woods I get the most joy from working with always seem to be the ones the encyclopedia says are hard on cutting edges. I suppose it could be worse, could be the other way round!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Here is a summary-so-far (to mkessage 17) of what this thread has taught me (which summary might please miller and gmoney, who have also started in Sawing-101). I note more replies since then, so a bit more summarising in due course:
Jerry, Derek, Adam and others have suggested “try out all types of saw”, but also “get the right saw for the job” ie at least a Tenon and a dovetail saw. I have my eye on Crown, LN, Adria & Odate as possibilities just now, following recommendations of y’all.
An old or cheap saw to refurbish and/or sharpen would be no bad thing. Although some have reservations about gents saw style, good ones can be had cheap so I will try one of those too, as per Adam’s advice – for cutting and practice at sharpening.
Mike has given me good UK sources for these saws - including a Japanese one, which I should at least try, although (according to some) they can be a bit delicate compared to thicker western saws.
Adam and Derek have pointed (!) out that sharpening is a necessary skill for saws as for any other edge tool. Mike has reassured me that I won’t have to sharpen every week (which is a relief). I will train myself to sharpen a saw.
Supplementary sharpening question: I have a triangular (60 degrees X 3) diamond-coated (coarse) file with 3mm sides, tapering to a point; is this suitable for saw sharpening or is a dedicated saw file required?<!----><!----><!---->
BG, 96 and Adam give good advice about how to start acquiring the necessary cutting techniques. (NB, 96, none of my WW friends has a dovetail saw I could borrow – speaks volumes about modern WW, eh)? 96, you also mention some fixing techniques, which I know I’ll need. J
Buster, gmoney and dherzig mention the Rob Cosman video. I will acquire that, as it seems to have a high reputation. (Won’t be selling my power tools, though, Mr Zig J That green button is a handy thing).
Good marking out is essential. I have a pair of excellent Sabatier marking knives, a number of thin lead propelling pencils, various sizes of engineer’s squares, Veritas marking and bevel gauges. I will begin with the pencil, as Adam suggests.
Supplementary “marking out” questions: do I need a dedicated dovetail marker (those that fit over the shoulder of the work piece)? Or one of those bevel gauge angle-setters from Veritas? Is a twin-knife M&T marker necessary or can I use my single-line marker twice, as it were?<!----><!---->
At the point of composing this reply (message 17 of the thread) no one except Adam has said much for a bow saw; and Mike is wary of them. I hope someone else who uses one a lot will post, as I do have a yen to try one. Axminster, here in the UK, sell one for about £30, which would at least serve as a pattern for making a better quality one.
I confess I have a desire to impress my green woodworking friends with a “real” bow saw, as they (and I) all use the tubular steel things at the moment, for cutting logs and the like.
Finally, respect to all who have replied so far – this kind of thread justifies Knots 10X over and shows what a great community exists in WW – worldwide!
Hi Lataxe,
Supplementary sharpening question: I have a triangular (60 degrees X 3) diamond-coated (coarse) file with 3mm sides, tapering to a point; is this suitable for saw sharpening or is a dedicated saw file required?
Certainly for just maintanance it may be OK. The big give a heck is the radius of the 3 corners--will it produce large gullets = small teeth, or will it fit into the existing gullets? I would not try to use it to heavily reshape teeth of a vintage saw if it required such a thing.
Supplementary “marking out” questions: do I need a dedicated dovetail marker (those that fit over the shoulder of the work piece)? Or one of those bevel gauge angle-setters from Veritas? Is a twin-knife M&T marker necessary or can I use my single-line marker twice, as it were?<!----><!---->
I have used markers, even own a few including those from LV. But I started out using a bevel gauge and returned to using one. That is for hand cut joinery. Else I just use the green button as Philip said. In my case on a WoodRat and I have on a BS. And I'll probably return to the BS for the tail cuts after the short discussion with DC.
As for bowsaws, Joel at Tools for Working Wood just posted plans for the bowsaw they are making. The hardware kits are cheap and the plans are available. I will probably get one when the built ones are available and use it for at least a coping saw--but will revisit cutting joinery with them at that time.
Take care, Mike
Bow saws, like japanese saws, are no panacea. Everybody should try them. But different saws do sometimes have their advantages. I have a 12" turning saw that is unequalled in my shop for scroll work. I've even coped with it, despite its coarse blade. I find the 18" (sandvik?) blades are a good length for misc. joinery tasks. No reason to make an 18" turning saw. Fix the blade in the frame and try that. Also, blade depth is all but irrelevant. No reason to eshew old band saw blade. I've done this and it works fine. the depth of the blade has very little effect on the saw. It certainly doesn't help "tracking".
Adam
Agreed.
For cutting out the hand-hold area on closed handled saws, I presently use an Olson frame and blades. Works well. But is ugly. I've always meant to build a little bowsaw and just never have gotten around to it.
When Joel announced the hardware for his bowsaws would be available separately, it was enough impetus to decide to go ahead and do it. Using nice tools to make nice tools is, well, appropriate to me.
In the end, though I will use the bowsaw start to finish on some joinery, I will go back to what I know well, western-style saws. Like the Japanese saws and even the gent's saws, while a good experience are still not right for me. I like the weight, various handle styles and hangs afforded by open handled small joinery saws--and I like pushing a saw.
Well, speaking of saws...I've worked until midnight most evenings this week. I'm tired, made a couple mistakes I needed to walk away from already this morning, two of my sons are off for a long holiday weekend, my wife just drove over the mountains to visit another of our sons, the 5-day Blues Festival which starts today has been calling me...but I better get back to work.
Take care, Mikegood thing the festival is broadcasted for most of it...
Mike,
Maybe this is a hijack, but related to topic. (When have I ever refrained from going off topic anyway) I've seen several old dovetail/tenon saws whose blades tapered in height from heel to toe. I've always assumed that this was due to repeated sharpenings, of the teeth that were the dullest, over the years. However, I recently read an article that suggested new saws were tapered at the factory--to achieve a desired relationship of handle-angle to edge, what I believe is called hang. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. It would seem that this angle would be easily arrived at in the design of the handle alone, without getting the width of the blade involved as an additional variable.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Hi Ray,
I have various thoughts about this. For some saws I think it obvious they were made with taper. The Kenyon saws as found in the Seaton chest are prime examples. Too, some catalogs show some saws with taper. I think I've seen more British saws with purpose-made taper than American-made, except perhaps early saws made in the US--but then again, most makers early on had immigrated from Britain, so it stands to reason they perhaps brought this practice here.
Then too, I have seen saws where the taper was due to repeated jointing/filing. Why do I think this? Nearly every saw I have examined that was near full height had grinding marks parallel to the tooth line. When one sees those grinding lines run-out towards the toe, it seems to me that it is due to jointing out cracks in the saw plate, or perhaps small kinks. If it was just from ill jointing/sharpening I would expect to see some taper towards the heels as well. But I don't. So I think it is mostly from repairs.
Also, US saws I have seen with taper seem be from the back at the toe of the saw slipping down. Often this can be seen that at the rear of the back, at the back of the mortise in the handle, is actually high as well. It is pivoting on the front of the mortise.
Unless someone has a text or three explaining why some saws were made with evident taper I'm not sure we'll ever really know why--kind of like the "why are there nibs on handsaws" question. I personally think you are correct that any relationship between the hand and saw are dealt with by the handle's hang.
My personal opinions/theories? My main thought is it is due to a couple factors. Primarily I think it is due to the thickness/thinness of the saw plate in relation to the usable depth. Particularity on the Kenyon saws in the Seaton chest. For example, the attached photo is of the large tenon saw. 19" blade length with 4 1/2" usable depth at the toe, rising about 1/2" at the heel. But the sawplate is a mere .025" thick. That's a lot of unsupported steel at the toe for the thinness of the saw plate. The remainder of the backsaws in the chest have progressively less taper for the length/usable depth/plate thickness.
Aside from the Kenyon examples, the other saws I personally have or have had here for sharpening that appear to have purposely-made taper all have thin saw plates, between .016" and .018" thick for small joinery saws, .018" to .020 for carcass saws, .020" to .025 for tenon saws. Too, tenon saws have had more taper than small joinery saws. Seems too common in attributes to be from mere chance all these owners were inept at sharpening.
Another idea I have is that it, like a nib, is a vestige of design from time then past. Perhaps like the tenant saw in Moxon. In dropping the ornate end and adding a back, perhaps makers thought the taper was pleasing. I find it so.
Lunch is over. They've started the Waterfront Blues Festival broadcast--back to the shop with me...
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Thank you for your thoughts. The thing about the thinness of the blade makes sense; also the idea of carrying on with the tradition from earlier times.
Regards,
Ray
I don't know if it was me who wrote that article or not--I have/made such a saw. Not only is the blade tapered, its shallow...little more than 1-1/2" at the toe??? I'm guessing. Maybe less.I don't know why this was done. If I had to guess I would say the taper was there to save steel. You don't need depth at the toe. But we can't escape the facts that the taper changes the hang angle and moves the center of gravity back some. The shallow blade is very nice to work with. It gives the saw a lighter quicker feel to it. I also think it looks cooler than some of the new boutique dt saws that look like meat cleavers.Believe it or not, I've made 3 back saws so far and I've not really taken good photos of them. If anybody wants pictures, again, just email me and maybe I can revise my post to add them.Adam
Of course we want pictures, Adam!
But we can't escape the facts that the taper changes the hang angle and moves the center of gravity back some.
At least on the Kenyon backsaws, the taper is only along the top. I.e., at the heel, the blade is a 90 degree angle from the toothline up to the back. So all the hang is actually in the handle like a rectangular saw is. Which is nice for construction purposes.
Some of the oldest saws I have are maybe 1 1/2" usable depth and 12" in length [or there abouts]. They are marked German Steel. They are also without taper. Go figure.
Take care, Mike
The toe is 1-1/4" deep under the spine. This is a 9" saw with 18 HAND CUT ppi (which means depending on where you measure it, it could be 20 or 16ppi !) Rake's between 5-10 degrees.A couple features I noticed looking at old saws include the delicate shaping of the handle at the brass, the way the brass is rounded ino that nice arc in the front.I think this is a beautiful saw. Its very nice to use (tho frankly not significantly better than my crown gent's saw which has similar teeth- this saw is more comfortable to hold- especially for longer periods). But while I'm happy with myself for making this fine tool, I'm happier knowing folks like you are willing to make these things commercially. It was only 10 years ago when you couldn't buy a decent dt saw new. I know exactly how much effort goes into making a saw like this, so I'd just like to say thanks Mike for making us tools. You play an important role in our ability to have fun working wood with top quality goodies. A lot of people on KNOTS think its cute to throw stones at tool manufacturers and editors. I think those folks are ingrates. Without you and guys like Chris Schwarz and Anatole Burkin, we'd still be making birdhouses using our Craftsman Multitool TM (its a router, planer, bandsaw and hammer all in one!)sorry for the rant thereAdam
She's a beauty, Adam. And as importantly--or more so--it sounds like it cuts well. Looks comfy. Very similar to another favorite vintage DT saw of mine, a Patterson.
All blushing aside [and many thank-yous for making me do so], it is a pleasure to make saws for people and I am indebted to each person who've gotten saws from us. Even with a few days like I've just been through, I cannot think of another trade I would rather do.
And I am still learning, day by day. And I want to learn more. I love to share what little I know about sawing and saws. And now the inventor bug has bitten and I am discovering new ways to apply old ideas towards making saws.
Even now there are people who are bringing new/old tools for saw making back to the business. For instance, Larry Williams just posted on WoodNet about a saw maker's rasp which is being redeveloped and will be available shortly through various places. Makes the life of someone shaping handles an easier chore. Hopefully he will post here as well.
Take care, Mike
making birdhouses using our Craftsman Multitool TM (its a router, planer, bandsaw and hammer all in one!)
Adam
Where can I get one of these? I take it they are specialist birdhouse-making tools? SWMBO (She Who Must BE Obeyed) has been pointing to strategic positions in the garden. Do they come in different sizes? Do they taper at the rear?
Seriously, that is a beautiful backsaw. I very much like the handle design - it is one after my own heart. Did you do the metalwork?
I would also like to echo your sentiments about the contribution of toolmakers such as Mike (stop blushing Mike!). It is easy for some (the Detractors) to focus on the business element (well, we all have to make a living), but someone like Mike offers so much, much more. It is not just the fact that there is one more custom sawmaker from whom to choose. What Mike has done for me - and no doubt many others - is to educate about saw design, history and use. This has had a marked effect on how I now approach woodworking. Thank you Mike. And I really should not omit yourself here Adam - your articles in PW do exactly the same. Thank you too.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 6/30/2006 10:43 pm ET by derekcohen
Edited 6/30/2006 10:44 pm ET by derekcohen
Adam,
Pretty work. I like that swoopy handle, with the extended spur at the top. Just like the Kimber .45 I have my eye on.
Ray
As David C mentions, 20ppi saws seem the norm for dovetail saws in UK catalogues. I feel duty bound to try one, as well as the Japanese saw mentioned, which sounds as if it will be stronger than the delicate kind people seem wary of. As Mike mentions, 20ppi must be difficult for an old scrote like me to even see, let alone sharpen. But as Patto says, practice, practice, practice.
That Philip Marcou is the personification of my Final Excuse, employed whenever I am caught out indulging myself for no good reason – “The Devil Made Me Do It”! I will be emailing Mr W and manufacturing a good reason for doing so (such as: lifetime warraty, superior saw, sharpened to one's specification and less expensive than an LN).
Thanks all for the education. I’m going to seek a little bit more concerning chisels, in another thread.
Lataxe
Hi Lataxe,
I posted this a while ago when dovetail saws were the flavour of the month.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=28508.1
I used a 8 point or 10 point, 24" or 26" panel saw with teeth sticking out of it at 90 degrees where the little rascals that I teach ran the saw over a vice. Just what I grabbed off the wall at the time.
I've also read somewhere else (or was it another tradie) about using the frozen meat blade - I've got a cheap Ryobi bench bandsaw that I do the scrollwork on, I might try it.
For what it's worth, I use an old flea market Gent's saw (Ibbotson from the 1950's, I think) to cut dovetails with when it's trade work.
From the pictures I've seen, Mike makes a good saw. They have a good reputation.
Cheers,
eddie
Eddie,
I might try that blunt Stanley knife I've got somewhere. :-)
A number of people in this thread have said, "Use any saw but get it sharpened right and use proper technique, marking, etc.)". (Or words to that effect). Of course, I will follow this advice; but I've already been working on the ladywife concerning the purchase of a shiny Mike W saw, and I would hate to have wasted all that buttering up!
Take your point though - its skill not a fancy tool, at bottom.
Lataxe, lulled & dulled by jigs and machine tools.
Aah but some do like elegant un fleabitten shiney with brass and steel tools-but I am not going there.
What is interesting me is in your 2003 post you say you marked without a gauge. I watched an old bloke in an Athens back street makng dowry boxes once- all by hand . The tails were laid out by eye, the only "gauge" being a rebated stick which gave him parallel lines for depth. He would gang 4 panels together and whack out the tails with a Frid like bow saw. Sockets would get about 10saw strokes each and then chisel would set to.Not boutique quality, but still pretty good-certainly for the average punter , some of whom would book one before he could finish.
But the wood was a nice soft pine without those alternating hard/soft growth rings.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip/Lataxe,
The layout by eye isn't that difficult, you can draw a dovetail at the correct slope on paper, so picking up a saw to cut the slope wasn't that difficult. As you'll note from the dovetail, however, I didn't get it symmetrical.
I'm off for the day, so I'll check in later tonight (8am Sunday here, 10am in the sunny South Island of NZ.)
Cheers,
eddie <- (who uses a sliding bevel when he's doing the paying work.)
Adam,
I don't know either, if it was you. The article was in either the EAIA or MWTCA newsletter, and I can't lay my hands on it now.
Regards,
Ray
O.K, here's some more knowledge to glean:- (apologies to Br. Lataxe for side tracking)
Those strange looking Oriental pull saws are designed for cutting tubular material-specifically bamboo for scaffolding structures-bet you did not know that, and it would be useful for Lataxe, appointed Handyman to the Queen of England to know.So it is understandable that the more dexterous woodworker would prefer not to display a crop of these in his cabinet.
Another thing to glean:-if you study the medallion emblem of the venerable Spear and Jackson rip saw in the picture you will read that it is backed with 200 years experience. Now that was some time ago when I bought it as new, so Now I like to say that I have close to 250 years experience at my right hand and God-well it also says "Dieu et mon droit".Can anyone explain why an English saw maker must use the slogan of a French sword maker?
Some of this transmission may not be strictly accurate.Philip Marcou
Now Lataxe, you may wish to know that a well known supplier may be persuaded to introduce the muftimod saw, ( Forestgirl would say multimuftimod ). It may happen, so watch this space.
Does the sander now function?
Best wishes, Us.
Mike Wensloff and Sons make very fine saws,give em a call and dicuss the specifications or wants of what you need and they'll do a super job for ya,I have several of their saws and all are remarkably well made and cut like a dream. Len
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