The word “European” is thrown around pretty loosely with regard to woodworking machines, the subtle suggestion is that any European made machine, or tool, is of a certain quality and feature set. If you have read the blade guard thread, you know to what I refer to. Of course, the term “Asian” is also used in a similar fashion, but usually to suggest some inadequacy… but I’m not going to get into that one.
There is disparity among manufacturers of any industrial or consumer equipment or appliance, regardless of the country or continent of origin. The Yugo is just as European as the Maybach, yet it is obvious that there is a great divide in technology and quality between those 2 automobiles. Likewise with woodworking machinery, there are high quality machines that offer a lot of features, and some at the lower end of the spectrum. Same with (North) American machines, there is high end and low end.
Perhaps you could be more specific with regard to references, if it is a Laguna or Felder machine that you are referring to, just say it.
Replies
Same with (North) American machines, there is high end and low end.
Great. What are the high end North American table saws that have the same high quality and features as MiniMax, Felder, Rojek, and other middle to high end small-shop saws offered by European manufacturers? I'd love to find one.
Certainly, there are the Yugos of table saws made in Europe. But, there are no Rojek or Felder comparables offered by American companies at any price. I'm excluding Northfield, because they don't cater to the small shop market.
Sorry, this response was directed to JeffN7, not Gary.
Edited 9/30/2002 5:48:14 PM ET by Donald C. Brown
the reason using the term "european machine" does give a clear idea is that none of the low end european machinery is exported to the US. Thus, to us (americans) the term european machinery means something quite clear, well designed.
Quite frankly though, even the lower hobby level stuff from europe that is not exported is better than our average american brand.
generalizations bug me.
"
Quite frankly though, even the lower hobby level stuff from europe that is not exported is better than our average american brand."
You are kidding, right? What I have seen is crap, and that is understating the case.
Check out a few Brit magazines if you want a shock as to pricing and tool quality.
You are correct Charlie. The cheap European saws, the ones that never make an appearance on the US market are, well,---- cheap, and tend to be a bit nasty. I suspect that it tends to follow that old maxim (with the occasional exception. You pay your money, and you get only what you pay for.
Even the products from one company selling their European style machines in the US serves as an example. Felder has its pared down little brother line, sold as Hammer. Whilst I have only limited experience of Felder kit, their spindle moulder (shaper) being the only tool I've used, and it's a darned good tool too, I've heard plenty of anecdotal references to the Hammer versions of their machines being substantially inferior in general. Slainte.Website
the hammer line is certainly inferior to the felder, but how it compares to american designs is another story.
If Hammer is the lowest example of European quality, then I'll take European any day over North American. Hammer may not be at the level of Felder, but it certainly crushes Delta, DeWalt, and Jet in terms of quality.
He, he, Matt. I'll admit I've never used one (Hammer that is) but I can tell just from looking at the machines and their prices that the Hammer range is some way above the "lowest example of European quality." See what you can find in search engines using these names, Lutz, Elektra Beckum, Stromab, Axminster, and Record. Most of these makers seem to offer at least some saws in the sterling (£) equivalent of about $700 to $2,000. Now Startrite, an old established European manufacturer of woodworking machinery, seem to be entering the sliding table saw market with some new offerings as well as their range of bandsaws. I'd like to have a closer look at them anyway. Slainte.
Website
Edited 10/1/2002 4:56:28 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
The only European saw I've seen for "consumer" level sale here in Japan is the Metabo Magnum; a friend has one and it seems well built though overpriced (but let's not get started on Japanese prices for imported stuff).
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Sgian,
Don't you think any comparison of the Euro-saws to "American" is rather unfair. (American company, Taiwanese product.) One could spend days pointing out all the advanced features and superb engineering found on a Rolls-Royce or S-Class Mercedes, and how no American car can come close to or even offers the same. An Impala, unlike a Rolls, costs considerably less than a house. Similarly, a Delta or Dewalt can't begin to compare to a Rojek or MiniMax or Felder. However, a Delta or DeWalt costs considerably less than an Impala (about 90% less!). The Euro-saws do cost just a bit more. This ain't like comparing apples to oranges, more like apple to diamonds.
BTW, I checked Rojek's site and they want nearly as much for a digital readout gauge for their fence - just the gauge mind you - as the cost of a new Delta or DeWalt.
Jeff
PS. I don't own a Delta or a DeWalt. Don't like them.
PPS. Thomas Moser owns two Deltas.
PPS. Thomas Moser owns two Deltas.
I'll bet he uses them exclusively for ripping, a task at which, with power feeder, they are excellent.
Jeff,
Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't talk. My saw is just a foot treadle turning an exposed, rusty blade, no guard. Rip fence is just a log tied down with wire. Don't need those expensive, fancy, schmancy sissy eeeuropean gadgets. Threw it together years ago. Worked then, works now. Why change a good thing?
Rich
Come on Rich. You get my point. The American makers/distributers are directing their products to a specific market. Not many of us can afford the Euro-saws and even the cabinet saws we do buy at $1000 - $2000 require many of us to go into hock. I have no doubt that Delta could make as fine a machine as any European manufacturer, but how many U.S. customers could/would buy it?
Jeff
Jeff,
It is inconceivable to me that Delta (for instance) could not outfit their saw with a proper riving knife and a crown guard, solutions far superior to their "typical" splitter/guard/antikickback devices, for no more cost than their current design.
This is NOT rocket science. The absence of such "advanced" technology is pure unadulterated inertia, procrastination and heads up their butts behavior.
I truly believe that with the addition of such an easily implemented feature, they could advertise the heck out of the situation (lord knows, they already spend the equivalent of the GNP of a small country on advertising), recoup the retooling expense in a week on additional sales, and drive the rest of the industry into imitating them. How much brains, and willingness to apply them does it take?
Why any argument? Maybe someone won't like the design? Make it optional.
Why is there any defense of an industry that in the face of easily, really easily-implemented superior design does nothing?
Rich
Rich,
Can't argue with you on the safety features. (Remember the exploding Chevy trucks and Ford Pintos - all to save $10/unit? Guess that's American corporate shortsightedness at work again. Then again, could it be the Europeans are including the $10 part and charging megabucks for it?)
I think once we become familiar with the working of a machine we can come up with a thousand ways to make it better. In one of the sawmills I once ran, the maintenance foreman and I spent endless Saturdays rebuilding a carriage we both hated. Eventually, after innumerable trips to the scrap pile and machine shop, we ended up with twice the machine we started with, spending little more than our time.
Guess I rather like adding my own modifications to my machines. Don't think I could do it to one of those Europeans; just too much money there for a guy to start tinkering and having fun. (That's the problem with a Rolls or Mercedes; the Red Green in us just stands there, duct tape in hand, weeping because we can't touch it.)
Jeff
Edited 10/1/2002 9:00:36 PM ET by Jeff K
Red Green? Wazzat?
Yeah, I would really hate not being able to improve a Mercedes with some bailing wire and duct tape.
I know this is a generalization, but the European design philosophy that I've been exposed to just seems to shudder at the Mickey mouse approach to problem solving. Here it's, "Mickey Mouse it just so's it runs, we'll do it right later." And later never happens.
vs
"Do it right, do it elegantly so that it runs forever."
The first time I drove a Mercedes, the experience was one of realizing that there was nothing exotically different about it, but the car was so profoundly well done in every conceivable way, that it was unlike any car I had ever driven before. And everyone who experienced Mercedes as they became more and more known during the 70s and 80s had the same reaction, "This is how a car SHOULD be made. Strip this sucker down, examine every part, then apply mass production and duplicate this thing, especially the quality. Stop wasting money on useless updating of dashboards, tail fins and wheel covers. Do it right."
Rich
Well, i've got me one of them Yuropeen models and it's all true what they say about fit and finish--just superb. And now he's taking me out for greasy pub food and beer--what's not to love?
Rich,
Let's not lose sight of the fact that design, engineering, and quality are 3 distinct disciplines that ideally work in concert, but are not universally linked. For example, the Japanese have owned the bar on quality for years, while their design and engineering have taken a back seat to the european manufacturers. Anti-lock brakes, air bags, fuel injection and crumple zones are all european innovations, and examples of leading edge engineering when they were invented. In the design department, the europeans again get a nod for designing cars that are timeless, such as the Porsche 911 which was first introduced in 1963 and has remained true to it's original design since (another is the mercedes SL class, my wife just got a new SL500 and it's an incredible car that is as powerful as a ferrari and as driveable as anything on the road, not too mention having just gorgeous lines). American manufacturers get credit for impressive design skills as well, the corvette is still an awesome car, and the SUV literally changed the automotive industry (even porsche is coming out with one).
Back to my original post, no single country or continent can claim ownership of any of the above 3 disciplines, yet each has a history of excelling in one or more over the other.
"It is inconceivable to me that Delta (for instance) could not outfit their saw with a proper riving knife and a crown guard, solutions far superior to their "typical" splitter/guard/antikickback devices, for no more cost than their current design.
This is NOT rocket science. The absence of such "advanced" technology is pure unadulterated inertia, procrastination and heads up their butts behavior."
Spoken with the ardor of someone who knows zip, squat, diddly about either manufacturing or marketing.
Well Charlie,
Since you know "zip, squat, and diddly about" my industrial experience, feel free to just throw insults when you disagree instead of offering credible information to back up your viewpoint.
Their catalog offers nothing in the way of the improvements I've suggested.
Watch that blood presure, now.
Rich
You mean you were totally unable to find the Uniguard, splitter, sliding table in the Delta catalog?
Wow. I know my eyesight is getting bad, but I was sure I saw that stuff in there--for the last couple decades at least.
Check out part #34-976 for the Uniguard. I'll leave you to look up the rest.
When you disagree, check facts first.
Thanks for supplying a link.
You mean this?
http://www.deltawoodworking.com/catalog/default.asp?cat_id=36&model_no=34-976
Since it's pretty hard to tell exactly what this contraption is, I won't comment further. Except that it doesn't come close to the elegance, functionality and utter simplicity of a riving knife, crown guard set up.
Rich
"http://www.deltawoodworking.com/catalog/default.asp?cat_id=36&model_no=34-976
Since it's pretty hard to tell exactly what this contraption is, I won't comment further. Except that it doesn't come close to the elegance, functionality and utter simplicity of a riving knife, crown guard set up. "
I don't know what it comes close to in your mind, but the fact is, you stated unequivocally that it didn't exist. It does. It works well. It is readily available at moderate cost.
You might check out an older Delta catalog--2-3 years ago, IIRC--to see "what this contraption is." Some of the shots were nearly full page. It may also be in the newest catalog, but I've not had time to check that one out.
Those, evidently, are not enough to satisfy your criteria, which would seemingly change if they met the standards you've now stated. Given the fact that nothing seems to meet your standards, I won't bother responding any further to you.
You started this thread by observing that the term "european" is thrown around loosely and that it is unfair to compare Unisaw-grade North American saws with more expensive European saws. Perfectly fair commments.
But now you have somehow backed yourself into implying that Unisaw-grade North American saws not only should be, but actually are as good as more expensive European saws because of the availability of a part in Delta's catalog. In fact, you now seem to suggest that anyone familiar with the mysteries of marketing and design would realize that Unisaw-grade North American saws could not be better.
Take yourself back a generation, when Japanese and to a lesser extent European cars were beginning to penetrate the American market. The reaction of some consumers was that there must be some defect in the Japanese cars (they were "flimsy," we were told) because American automobile manufacturing naturally represented the apex of engineering, design, and marketing. Those reactions were wrong. We realized after the fact that American car makers had become fat and lazy and were hopelessly outclassed in every aspect of their business.
Is the same thing happening in the table saw market? Who knows. But before you get so hot under the collar you should at least keep the possibility in mind.
Charlie-
I hope it works great, because it's the kludgiest design imaginable. Compare to the simplicity of the Euro-style riving knife and crown guard (there are a number of pictures on this or related threads). The Delta guard you like sells for around $250. The riving knife and crown guard on Euro saws (I'm guessing here) probably cost less to manufacture than the ineffective original equipment Delta splitter and blade guard.
As a fan of irony, I love Delta's implied message: Now, add about 20% of the cost of the saw, and we'll sell you a guard that actually works.
I've been reading this thread with some amusement seeing that Black & Decker not only make the worst tools it has ever been my misfortune to come across, they have bought up companies that were making decent tools and dragged their products downmarket.It may be, of course, that you don't count UK as part of Europe.
"Why any argument? Maybe someone won't like the design? Make it optional."
Jeez. It already IS optional: check out the Delta web site or catalog.
Hi Rich:
I completely agree with you. Delta, Jet, etc. could easily adopt the European splitter and blade guard for next to nothing and prevent hundreds of accidents a year. This is technology that has been around for thirty years. But, they don't want to spend the money.
A few years ago, a fellow from Oregon developed electronic circuitry which stops a table saw blade instantly before it cuts off a finger. He demonstrated it at a national trade show where it was a hugh hit. So far none of the manufactures have shown any interest in it. Does that tell you something.
Dennis
Come to think of it, how many saws are equipped with brakes of any kind?
Not a rhetorical question. I'm askin' here.
Rich
Hi,
reading this thread is boosting my European ego. ;-)
And yes we have saws with brakes too. I own a contractor's saw table from Electra Beckum (hobby quality) that has a 'motor' brake and stops in approx. 5 seconds which I like because it is already a lot better than a free spinning stop.
The equipment from Festool (Festo) also available in U.S. has a quick stop feature of less than 2 seconds on most of their equipment. This is used as a prominent sales argument.
Gert
European law requires that all saws sold in europe or operated in commercial shops (band saws and circular saws) have a braking of less than 9 seconds. All of the saws that did not meet these requirements were either up graded or traded in and then sold second hand in the third world. The european producers often make models to sell in the US without this feature because it is expensive.EC safety laws are much more strict than the US and get more so every year this makes it difficult for small commercial shops because of the constant requirement to modify machines or upgrade to new machines.
Philip
Wop,
"required braking of less than 9 secs"
What do they typically achieve? My saw has no brake. I'll have to time it but I think that it stops shorter than that.
Rich
That's the law I don't much understand the reasoning either. Mine stops in about 4 secs . There are other safety features that make sense but that one got me. The brake has to be on the motor so it is expensive.
Philip
Come on Rich. You get my point. The American makers/distributers are directing their products to a specific market. Not many of us can afford the Euro-saws and even the cabinet saws we do buy at $1000 - $2000 require many of us to go into hock. I have no doubt that Delta could make as fine a machine as any European manufacturer, but how many U.S. customers could/would buy it?
Then I wonder why European woodworkers are more apt to buy the fine equipment you mentioned and American woodworkers are not?
Jeff--
Not many of us can afford the Euro-saws and even the cabinet saws we do buy at $1000 - $2000 require many of us to go into hock.
You just made that up, didn't you, Jeff? In the richest country in the history of civilization, you have concluded that woodworkers are so far down in the economic pits that they have to jeopardize their future to buy a $1000 - $2000 saw? And not many woodworkers in the US can afford a (I'm guessing) $5000 Euro saw? Want to cite your sources?
Jeez, I guess all the woodworkers on this forum are down at their local library borrowing a computer and Internet connection to send their messages. If they can't afford a $1000 saw, they surely can't afford their own computer. Tell me where to send canned food.
Don and Charles,
Let me be more specific. I saved nearly two years in order to buy my new Jet. For me, this was a big investment. BTW, my computer was a hand me down.
Jeff
Jeff, I agree that comparing $500-- $2,500 US saw models with $5,000 Felder's, and Laguna's, and against $20,000 Martin's is very apples to oranges. That's why I threw in the names of those saw makes that are sold in Europe-- but not sold in the US-- for comparison in my earlier post, here, http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&ctx=&cacheTag=16-26&msg=8121.1#a12. This is the post you replied to of course; the makers I identified do sell saws in Europe at prices quite comparable to US prices. The machines I identified also don't perform well next to the Felder, Laguna, Startrite, Wadkin, Martin, Altendorf types, but at that price I thought it might be interesting to see how those economical machines compare to US machines. One item I know for sure is that most of the European machines I singled out have aluminium tops as compared to the cast iron common in the US, which is a saving perhaps allowing for a wee sliding table and a dust chute--- and maybe a lesser motor too comes into the equation too. But is an aluminium top and less powerful motor what people want? Just a couple of examples that do allow for a comparison.
Incidentally, you'd be surprised how many Briton's envy the ability of Americans to fit dado blades on their saws. I see a fairly steady stream of questions in British forums on the subject-- they show Norm in the UK too, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.Website
Sgian,
Is there a significant difference in price between aluminum and cast iron? The last time I sold scrap the aluminum was about three time the price of iron.
Jeff
Jeff, I really couldn't say about the difference in cost. I don't buy and sell metal, and I don't engineer stuff with it. I simply notice that at the economy end of saws sold in the European market that aluminium tables are prevalent. I assume there's a reason for that, and overall cost sprung to mind as one potential reason, because saws that cost in the $3,000 and up brackets tend to feature a lot of cast iron in their tops. Slainte.Website
JEFFN7:
To me the word "European" means different safety requirements than the American OSHA standards. When you compare high end equipment from any country they will be of comparable quality. However the European (especially when it comes to table saws) will be safer.
Dennis
Jeff,
I think I understand what you're saying here, let me see if I got it right. The word or term "European" meaning, having exclusive rights to quality, and you're saying this is not necessarily so. If this is what you mean then I agree with you.
Paul
that's all I'm saying, nothing more... nothing less.
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