I have just installed an Oneida Cyclone DC. This unit is the very definition of QUALITY! Even the bolts, nuts and washers are top flight. But – it is made of heavy components so plan at least 2 to install it.
Now, my problem. The unit comes with a 2 HP Baldor motor and a separate magnetic starter with thermal overload protection and ‘long ranger’ installed in the starter box. I have an Ecogate, “Greenbox” DC/blastgate controller – start a machine and the apprpriate blast gate opens, all others close and the DC fires up. I wouldn’t be without it.
But it won’t work with the in-line magnetic starter and therefore I cut out the starter box and wired directly to the Green box. Thus I lose the theral overload protection.
1. Do I need the this thermal protection?
2. And, if so, can I buy a separate protection device to install in-line?
3. Or, better yet, is there a way to utilize the one I’ve got, bypassing the magnetic starter?
Frosty
Replies
I would most definitely keep the thermal overload protection, and remove the Ecogate control- operate the needed blast by hand, or leave them all open.
Expert since 10 am.
It would be easy for an electrician to hook up the Ecogate control unit to the Oneida's existing magnetic starter. Ecogate may be able to tell you how to do this yourself.
You should not run the cyclone without a magnetic starter and you are possibly overloading the Ecogate control unit by using it to handle the load of starting the cyclone's motor directly, it will certainly wear out the Ecogates motor relay faster by having them handle such a large motor.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John,
Forgive my ignorance in advance, but what exactly is a magnetic starter? I thought start capacitors were built into motors? I am asking because I am looking at buying an Oneida myself in the near future, and would like to know what to expect, wiring-wise, although the ecogate is not going to be part of my equation.
Thanks,
Lee
He's referring to a magnetic relay. Instead of having an on/off switch you push a button that supplies current to a relay, the relay pulls up and closes some contacts that supply current to the motor. The relay also has a set of contacts in parallel to the push button so when it closes it puts itself on hold. The stop button breaks the hold circuit and the relay drops out. The big advantage to this type of control is when the power goes off the relay drops out so when the power comes back on it wont't start again by its self, you have to push the on button again.
Jack
Jack,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I have a magnetic starter on my Powermatic 66. Since it's mounted on the saw, I didn't really think of it as being seperate.
Lee
I see that somebody has already given you a good explanation of the function of the starter switch, so all I can add is that it will be fairly easy to hook up your Oneida when you get it.
John W.
John and Jack,
Thanks for getting back to me. If I could bother either of you with one more question:
I fully understand the need for a mag. starter on a saw, shaper,planer,etc..., but what would be the significance of having one on a dust collector? Surely safety would not be an issue, if the power cut out in the middle of collecting, you could just turn the collector back on without any problems. Or are they more of an insurance against power surges that would damage the motor (say, during a storm)? Also could I assume that since the machine is isolated from the power by the switch that a large surge, such as lightning, wouldn't reach and harm the machine? We have lost quite a few tv's, phones and answering machines to lightning surges in the last few years, so I try to unplug all of my equipment when not in use. Just wondering if that would be necessary with a magnetic switch.
Again, thanks for the help and courteous replies,
Lee
Lee,
A magnetic starter serves two functions. The first is that the machine won't come back on again after a power interruption, which isn't especially important with a dust collector, but it would still prevent the machine from coming on and running all night, or possibly all weekend, if the power went out in the afternoon and no one was in the shop later when the power was restored.
The second, and more important function, is that the switch contains a device that detects when the motor is drawing too much power and is in danger of being damaged. When a problem is detected, the switch cuts the power and, as before, it must be manually restarted.
A magnetic switch doesn't prevent a lightning surge from reaching the machine, though it will isolate the machine when the switch is off. But motors aren't nearly as easily damaged by lightning strikes as are electronics, If your dust collector has a wireless remote start switch, that would be as vulnerable to a lightning strike as a television or an answering machine.
Protection from a lightning strike requires a surge protector. You can have one installed at your home's main electrical service panel, that will protect everything in the house, or you can install small surge protectors around the house to protect specific devices.
John White
Hi John,
That clears things up for me a bit. Thanks so much,
Lee
John,I'll have an electrician look at my set-up. The combo, with the DC direct wired into the GreenBox, has worked satisfactorily so far. When I got the unit I called Ecogate and was told "Don't worry!" by a man who has been very helpful in the past - but I want to be safe. The motor component (it is a cyclone, not a DC) is too heavy to handle any sooner than necessary.FrostyTo all: Many thanks for the prompt replies.
Here's the best reason of all to have an overload on a motor - THE NEC SAYS SO. The NEC is part of the National Fire Code for a reason! Breakers do a good job of protecting wiring insulation from short circuits, not so good with moderate overload over long periods of time, like when that DC is running for 20-30 minutes straight. an induction motor try to make it's rated power nomatter what. So low voltage or a bad winding or bad bearing may cause the current to climb and overheat the wiring. If the insulation gets too hot it fails, the conductors short out and may start a fire. The building burns down. The insurance adjuster investigates and finds out the cause of the fire was the DC circuit without overload protection on it. The "Good Hands" guy drops you like a hot rock and doesn't give you a dime. Hopefully nobody got hurt. Do it right.
Here's the NEC Section
430.42 Motors on General-Purpose Branch Circuits.Overload protection for motors used on general-purpose branch circuits as permitted in Article 210 shall be provided as specified in 430.42(A), (B), (C), or (D).(A) Not Over 1 Horsepower. One or more motors without individual overload protection shall be permitted to be connected to a general-purpose branch circuit only where the installation complies with the limiting conditions specified in 430.32(B) and 430.32(D) and 430.53(A)(1) and (A)(2).(B) Over 1 Horsepower. Motors of ratings larger than specified in 430.53(A) shall be permitted to be connected to general-purpose branch circuits only where each motor is protected by overload protection selected to protect the motor as specified in 430.32. Both the controller and the motor overload device shall be approved for group installation with the short-circuit and ground-fault protective device selected in accordance with 430.53.(C) Cord-and-Plug Connected. Where a motor is connected to a branch circuit by means of an attachment plug and receptacle and individual overload protection is omitted as provided in 430.42(A), the rating of the attachment plug and receptacle shall not exceed 15 amperes at 125 volts or 250 volts. Where individual overload protection is required as provided in 430.42(B) for a motor or motor-operated appliance that is attached to the branch circuit through an attachment plug and receptacle, the overload device shall be an integral part of the motor or of the appliance. The rating of the attachment plug and receptacle shall determine the rating of the circuit to which the motor may be connected, as provided in Article 210.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Thanks for the detailed response.On Wednesday I arranged for an electrical contractor to review the "overload protection" situation and also provide an overall review of my shop wiring. I think I will ask him to install a separate "shop panel" rather than work out of the main house panel. He arrives next Thursday - and, it turns out he is a woodworker with a DC he has problems with.Frosty
Good idea, the subpanel is the way to go.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I've had the Oneida 1 1/2 HP model for eight years and operate it without separate overload protection other than the breaker in the panel. Never had a problem. My blast gates, however, are all manual (big PIA). If you leave all or some of the blast gates open you will lose most of your vacuum.
The EcoGate is a marvel. I just start the implement and the appropriate gate opens and all otheres are closed - max suction at the tool. The "standard" unit comes with "vibration" sensors, but I found I needed the little "current sensor" coils on several machines - unit w/ very little vibration, or working on my oputfeed table started the saw gate and the DC. They are very easy to install.Frosty
1. Do I need the this thermal protection?
Yes
2. And, if so, can I buy a separate protection device to install in-line?
A direct answer is "Yes". Your local electrical supply house can supply a "stand alone" thermal overload; Square D, GE, Cutler Hammer, Allen Bradley, and so on. Just provide the motor specs, voltage and so forth. But the long answer is this is not advised for your application.
3. Or, better yet, is there a way to utilize the one I've got, bypassing the magnetic starter?
With all else being said I would install a relay or timer at the blast gate control that signals the 2 hp motor starter to engage, using its control circuit. That way you can keep the DC control configuration, including thermal overload intact and keep the controls isolated. This is just a long winded way of repeating JohnWW's advice.
Edited 1/11/2007 2:17 pm ET by TickTockMan
Put the mag starter before the ecogate Greenbox. Use it as an enable/disable switch, or on/off master control if you prefer. In other words, push the start button to power up the ecogate system, then use the ecogate system as intended. I believe the greenbox unit is rated for 2 hp at 240V, so it should be able to control the DC motor. When you're done for the day, push the stop button to shut the whole thing down. The mag starter still provides overload/overcurrent protection, and I doubt the ecogate system takes much electrical overhead on it's own, but you may be able to adjust the thermal setting upward a little to compensate.
It's not as clean as wiring the ecogate system into the control loop, but it does serve to power down the ecogate system, which you would have had to do in some fashion anyway.
Be seeing you...
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