I have had a Stanley #112 scraper plane for about 10 years. It came with a thin blade, the standard Stanley fare. I used it for a while, never really made it work very well, and eventually bought the Lie-Nielsen “Stanley Replacement” blade for the plane. I had read on forums, such as Badger Pond, that this was the way to go, in the same manner that thick plane blades were an upgrade on the thin original Stanley bench plane blades.
Blades for the #112 are ground in the same way as bench plane blades. LN suggests that their model, which is the same design as the vintage Stanley, be used sans hook. The hook is only recommended for advanced users.
I have a memory that the LN blade originally came with a 60-degree bevel. At any rate, I reground it to 45 degrees in line with the blade in my Stanley #80 scraper plane. In recent years I have been grinding the primary bevel at 30 degrees. This creates an edge with greater penetration (i.e. “sharper”) and I believe that the steel (probably 01) would not be compromised compared to a 45-degree primary bevel.
I have not used the Lee Valley/Veritas #112, which has the capacity for a thick and a thin blade. I would be interested to hear the opinion of those that have used both blades.
My interest in a thin blade was re-kindled recently by the writings of Paul Hamler who probably knows more about scraper plane design that anyone else. If Paul says that he prefers a thin blade to a thick one, then they must be better …
So still struggling with ‘flu and lacking the concentration for a long project (such as the Tallboy that is now languishing in the corner), I decided to instead spend this afternoon answering this question for myself.
I needed a thin blade, so decided to make one out of a piece of saw blade that was the right size and hardness. The big belt sander is a great tool – hardly ever been touched by wood, I use it for grinding metal. The steel was flattened, and both blades were honed up to 8000 on a Shapton waterstone. The thin blade was given a primary bevel of 35 degrees while the LN continued with its 30 degrees. Both blades were given a fine hook with a thin carbide rod I use as a burnisher.
The thin blade:
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Behind the blade is my carbide burnisher. In front of this is the glass setting plate I use for woodies and scraper planes.
Here are the two blades alongside one another:
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The thin blade measured 1.25mm or 3/64” thick. The LN measured 2.6mm or 7/64” thick.
Shavings
I started with the thin blade in the #112. This was a surprise on two scores: firstly, I was not prepared for the high-pitched screeeeeech it made as it moved across the wood. Good grief! Secondly, the thin blade worked exceptionally well.
Here is a picture of it scraping a board of Tasmanian Oak…
… and another on Jarrah …
The thin blade had a “soft” feel – as if it was flexing as it scraped. It also appeared to feel twitchy, that is, it required more effort to keep it straight. It seemed to want to move around the board.
By contrast, the thicker LN blade required a little more force to push, but it was silent (!) and it had a firm, purposeful feel to it.
Here is the LN blade scraping the same Tasmanian Oak board. The shavings are near identical to the previous effort …
Both blades left the wood smooth as a baby’s watsit.
By now I was having fun with the LN blade. Here is a long shaving …
…and a shaving from hard Rock Maple …
Summing up
Both thin and thick blades worked well. The thin blade surprised me just how well it produced shavings and the great finish it left. But I could not live with the sound it made – worse than a power router! Happily, the thick LN blade performed as well, or better, and did so effortlessly. I think that I will stay with it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 10/13/2007 12:53 pm ET by derekcohen
Replies
Derek,
I've used a Veritas scraper plane with a thin blade (ground and hooked as per the Veritas recommendations) for a while now. It certainly works well although the screech often (but not always) appears. That screech must be high frequency chatter; but it doesn't seem to produce any discernible chatter marks.
The great thing about the Veritas scraper is the ability to alter the cutting action via both changes to the blade angle and via the blade-bowing mechanism. It seems to allow qute a lot of uage before you have to rebevel and rehook the blade. Small tilts forward and/or increased bowing seem to get it to cut again and again as it gradually wears down the hook.
I haven't used a thick blade in the Veritas but just today I have been playing with a newly-received blade for one of Philip's S45 planes. This blade is ground with a 45 degree bevel (43 degrees + 2 degree microbevel) and a 10 degree back bevel. I used the Veritas MkII jig and its barrel roller to put a slight camber in it too.
The blade goes in bevel up (in a normally beveldown plane with a 45 degree bed angle) so presents to the work at 90 degrees. Loh and behold, it will take fine scraper-style shavings, although it turns out there is not enough camber yet to avoid blade corner track marks.
There is no hook rolled on to the edge so it is just a plane with a 90 degree cutting angle. The only adjustment is blade up or down. It doesn't seem to like anything deeper than a thou or two, which is what you'd expect with scraping. Nor do I know how long the edge will last (not too long I suspect).
So, a thick blade sans hook does scrape. It's just that there is not much adjustment compared to the likes of a Veritas scraper plane with a thin, bendable blade and the possibility of changing the blade angle.
This blade is D2 steel I think. I suspect that LN recommend no hook on their thick blade because it is A2. This is a lot harder than the thin veritas blade, for instance, so how practical is it to put a hook on? It may be too brittle......? On the other hand, LV sell a thick A2 scraper blade for their scraper plane and they do seem to be saying it should be hooked.
In truth, I rarely scrape at all now. The high angle planes (up to 65 degree cutting angle) seems able to produce a glossy surface in any grain, however hard, roiling or otherwise nasty. Only the stuff with very soft early wood next to very hard late wood, plus reversing grain, seems to cause any difficulty (a slighty woolly nap on the soft areas). But a scraper of any kind seems only to produce the same effect and one must resort to fine sandpaper on a hard block.
Lataxe
"That screech must be high frequency chatter; but it doesn't seem to produce any discernible chatter marks."
Given that the frequency of the screech is probably at least 2 kHz, and you're moving the plane at maybe 20-40 mm/sec, you'd have to have a very good eye to see the 0.01-0.02 mm chatter marks.
"Only the stuff with very soft early wood next to very hard late wood, plus reversing grain, seems to cause any difficulty (a slighty woolly nap on the soft areas). But a scraper of any kind seems only to produce the same effect and one must resort to fine sandpaper on a hard block."
I find that to be true with curly soft maple, too. No amount of planing or scraping in any one direction is enough to smooth all of the surface. (I suppose you could do it if you could somehow manage to change the direction you're scraping every few mm....)
-Steve
Derek and all , glad to see you spent some time experimenting with a thin scraper blade and I know that screeching sound very well. I'll try to shed some light on your experience. First just as all woods are not created equal the same can be said for the assortment of steels used for making saw blades.I have a stash of scraper blades made from different saw blades both old and new, when I find a blade that performs well in its ability to file easy, hold an edge and do all the right things the first thing I do is observe the spark pattern from a grinder or belt sander the second thing is to hide it from the wife.
After experimenting with different scraper blades made from hand saws it became obvious the steel characteristics of the good saw stock resembled the steel used by many commercial card manufactures like Sandvik and Stanley. I often tell novice scraper students to buy one of the Lee Valley four pack card scraper blades to experiment with different blade thickness with a known good quality steel that was made for using as a scraper not a saw.
Having said all that the screeching is caused by the scraper gods not being happy with the relationship of the angle of the burr, the initial depth setting of the blade and the pitch setting of the frog. In order to keep the gods happy all three must be set proper, this is one of the main reasons the beginner has so much difficulty making an adjustable frog scraper plane perform.
I recommend filing (not sanding) a 45degree bevel on the scraper,after honing the bevel until the back of the scraper is free of scratches and the edge is sharp and crisp I roll the burr at 50 to 55 degrees and prefer a somewhat aggressive burr over a light wimpy one. (this is my preference and not the holy grail) . After forming the first burr I will test it by hand as one would a card scraper at this point if it can generate a good shaving I proceed to roll the burr flat with the back of the blade and return the burr.( this work hardens the end of the blade and smooths the flat side of the steel pushing high spots into lower areas ) If your burnisher has a point it is a good practice to ever so lightly run the point of the burnisher under the burr to remove any wild steel and provide a light polish to the underside of the burr. For those who do not have a pointed burnisher one can be made from a nail setting punch, just grind a point on the end and highly polish the tapered portion and the point,you can use the tapered portion for turning the burr.
Ok after the blade has the finished burr test it like a card scraper and note the sweet spot angle where it bites the wood and cuts the best, this should be close to the final pitch setting of the frog required to keep the scraper gods from screeching.Next place the blade in the plane with the frog set a few degrees less than your desired setting from above. With a hard flat object under the throat opening (I use the blade of my Stanley square) position the blade so it is seated flat on the hard object under the throat opening and then tighten the screw on the front of the frog. I have better results with this than placing the entire sole on a flat surface. You can visually sight the blade penetration to check lateral protrusion of the blade or just run the palm of your hand over the blade and listen for uniform sound across the width of the blade. It helps when sighting the blade alignment to place a white sheet of paper behind the plane to provide contrast.
At this point the plane will not cut at all or will only take a very light cut... this is what you want. Next adjust the frog forward in small increments to set the required depth of cut. If everything is in balance you should have a soft singing sound as the shavings come out of the throat, this is a good sound, if you have a screeching sound one must play with the balance of blade depth and frog angle. Who said it was going to be easy. I have always felt if you have success with a task and it works for you then you usually don't need to change it. I was taught from an old master on scraper use and technique and in no way say mine is the only way but it works for me. One of the biggest advantages I feel a thinner blade is an asset is when scraping extremely burly woods the thin blade will flex and give more than a thicker stiffer blade thus reducing grain or knot pull out. With a thinner blade taking an aggressive cut one cah often hear a slight snapping sound as the plane leaves the wood. There could be a book written on thick vs thin and it would end up like the many opinions about what a saw nib is for....who cares.
Last point....be sure to tighten both adjusting nuts very snug once the sweet spot is found. This has always been an irritant to me and resulted in the Hamler spring adjuster I came up with years ago.I am up to my cheeks with alligators now trying to get the scraper insert out before the holidays. After I get caught up a bit I'll post on my blog a tutorial on converting a dual nut adjustment over to my patented spring single nut adjuster.
Later
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Paul Hamler
http://www.hamlertools.blogspot.com
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