Hello.
I’m going to make a small basket for me and the mrs. to bring veggies in from the back yard garden. It’s patterned after a project on FWW by Becksvoort (“Shaker Berry Box”).
The plan calls for a box with 1/8” thick sides. A couple months ago I resawed a piece of walnut into a similar thickness. In a day or two that piece had developed a pronounced and interesting twist. I think I was a victim of “case hardening”, but I guess it could be some other phenomena.
In the plan, Becksvoort uses white pine. I don’t have any of that, but I have pieces of red oak (8/4), white oak (4/4) and sapele (6/4) that would all be big enough for the project at hand (I’m in an “exploring wood” phase, so these are lying around).
Are any of these better than the other, if the concern is thin pieces? Is there a reason white pine is used in the original plan (is it more “stable”)?
any tips you could provide on producing 1/8” or 3/16” thick pieces would be appreciated. The box would be approx 10” long x 6” wide x 4” high (the wood will move most in the 4” dimension).
thanks!
Replies
White pine is about the most stable wood around. Quartersawn is even more stable. Shakers used a lot of white pine because it was stable. Top is and bottoms of oval boxes were almost all white pine, small and thin boxes such as the berry box, lap desks, etc were white pine.
Cut your slabs thick, and give them some time to dry and adjust before final dimensioning.
Or, cut your pieces to size and immediately cut your dovetails. The joinery can keep the parts from moving.
Small boxes with thin sides do have the potential to warp if the environmental factors that trigger warping occur. Those factors are mostly to do with moisture changes. A veggie box will inevitably see moisture changes, from going in and out doors but also from the veggies themselves. Very thin 1/8" panels of wood will take up moisture quite quickly.
Quarter sawn straight-grain wood, especially those woods with a low propensity to expand and shrink with moisture changes, will help a lot. The oak and sapele you mention will not be as stable as white pine unless you're lucky enough to have some very even-grained quarter-sawn pieces. Even then ....
But does any of this matter greatly in that box design? Even if the walls of the box warp and twist a bit, those finger jointed sides will expand and contract together at the same rate. Finger joints are very strong indeed if made tightly and properly glued. A slightly warped veggie box will have more character.
The risk is the solid wood floor of the box, as the short sides are cross-grain glued to the box side long grain. There will be differential shrinkage that might cause a split (most likely to occur in the floor). Expansion of the floor might even break the finger joints on the lower corners of the box.
Normally such a box floor would be set into a groove, with some room for expansion .... but you can't really do a groove (not easily, at least) in 1/8" thick stock without risk of weakening the box wall into which such a groove is set; or making it so shallow that the floor could pop out.
One solution would be to glue-on a plywood floor, as the plywood will not shrink and expand to any significant degree with moisture changes. But then you would need to cover the ply edges .... or just accept them.
Another solution for a veggie box would be to put in a floor of strips rather than a solid floor. The strips need only have a very narrow gap between them to cater for the small expansions or contractions that would split a solid floor. A stip bottom would also allow the insects and water/soil on the veggies to crawl, drip or fall out.
Lataxe
All wood moves!
@John_C2 has said it all - this is a small project and your best bet is to rough prep a week before and finish it all in one day.
Any of those woods will be stable enough, especially if you can cut it so you get quarter-sawn pieces.
I would pick the red oak myself, just for it's look, but the sapele is easy to work.
Quartersawn white pine is pretty magical. The Shakers knew. Chris Becksvoort knows. You can do stuff with it that you can't with most other woods.
Becksvoort's Berry Box has a 1/8 bottom, 5-1/2 inches wide. It's glued all around to the box, with no issues. If you look at the first picture in the article, the bottom is perfectly quartersawn.
Becksvoort glues the bottoms onto his Shaker lap desks. The parts are 3/8 thick, and 12-1/2 inches wide, but the bottom can be glued on with no problems.
Many years ago I built a box for my good rasps and files. The top, bottom and middle partitions are about 10 inches or so wide. All parts are 1/4 inch. As you can see in the pictures, the panels are only about half quartersawn. They are all glued to the dovetailed case, and have never warped, cracked, or caused any problems.
All hail Eastern White Pine.
If there's any bending involved white oak is a good choice. Split or riven strips off of straight grain boards bend the best.
I find keeping thin strips clamped them between two flat boards until ready to use.
Thanks for the feedback, and the pics John_C2 (that looks awesome). I'm going to go with the eastern white pine. I am in an "exploring wood" phase, after all. I called Rugby ABP in Stoughton (Mass.), they don't have quartersawn but they do have 8/4 eastern white pine. So I might try and "make" quartersawn as per Becksvoort in the "shaker berry box" plan.
Actually I'm in a really happy situation where I can do anything that I please, at any pace that I please, so I might make two of them. One according to plan, and another using the sapele with dovetail joinery and a "Lataxe slat bottom". The plan calls for setting blade height to 5/64th, lol. He skips right over the 32nds and heads straight to the 64ths. That should be fun. I already ordered a Freud LU83R010. I realize it won't be perfectly flat, but it'll be good enough for me.
Neal
A couple of years ago Rugby bought Downes and Reader in Stoughton, and it's never been the same. There were so many choices then, and more and better of everything. I still check them out, being 20 minutes away, but most often I walk away empty handed.
Most of the time I go to Highland Hardwoods, just over the line in New Hampshire. Check them out if you haven't.
But for pine go to Gurney's Sawmill down in Freetown Mass!!!! They have pretty much only pine, but it's cheaper and nicer than anywhere else. They have green and kiln dried, and every size and thickness there is. Beautiful, clear, knot free wide pine. It's an old family business. They close for lunch and are cash only.
When I want quartersawn, I look for a "bullseye," the pith, in the center of the board. I usual l avoid those like the plague. But they are ideal for quartersawn. Rip out the pith, and you have a couple of perfect quartersawn 5 inch boards from either side.
Thanks for the tip on Gurney's, I'll definitely check them out. The videos on their website are amazing.
Hello everyone
Following up/through on this with two more questions. The thin box came out way better than I was expecting. Everything was clicking yesterday. Freud LU83R010 blade worked great.
The only things left are the handle, and finishing. I’m making handle out of white oak, it’ll be 1/8 thick and 1/2 wide (15” long). It needs to be bent. Becksvoort suggests soaking it in warm water for 15 minutes, then clamping to a shop-made form and letting it dry for a day or two. Is there anything more to it than that (cautions/pitfalls/better ways/etc)?
Then, finishing. I’m kind of a minimalist but do not want it unfinished or wax-only. Does pine take shellac ok, or do i need conditioner? Any finishing suggestions?
Thanks for feedback. This project was a success for me, and definitely a product of the forum feedback.
Neal
Very nice job. Very nice.
Pine takes shellac great. I usually do one or two coats of shellac, then a coat or two of water based poly. The poly is more protection than shellac, especially against anything wet. By coats, I apply them super thin. As in barely making the surface uniformly wet.
Oak bends great. Ash and cherry bend great too. I bend a ton of cherry.
Bending is a combination of moisture and heat. Less heat means soaking longer. More heat means shorter soaks. The ideal temp is 180 degrees, and ten or 15 minutes is more than enough at that temp. Leave it on the form for a couple of days until it's dry.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled