Replies

1. 
   rslatm | Jan 20, 2003 08:33pm | #1

   Which FineWoodWorking plans are those? I think this has been covered several tmes in past issues. Without knowing which plans you are talking about how can one give feedback on your project? Too much information in a post is more helpful than not enough.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/20/2003 6:22:06 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork

1. 
   mosswerks | Jan 20, 2003 09:20pm | #2

   Sorry-

   I have access to both of the plans in issue #85 and #21 but I am not tied to those. Any other options are appreciated.

   -Kimberly

1. 
   rslatm | Jan 20, 2003 09:26pm | #4

   That helps a lot now.  I can look those up. I've made a few up with friends over the years so will see what we learned in those experiences

2. 
   MStehelin | Jan 20, 2003 09:34pm | #5

   Funny, I have been thinking the about the same thing. There is a site that sells all the hardware and plans at: http://www.nicks.ca/Toolkits.html

    I wrote him a e-mail asking if any one had any feed back from customers and this is what he responded with:

   Mitt I would have to go through thousands of files to get that information. We sell over four thousand different products and do not keep track of who buys what. We just file the orders after shipping by name alphabetically. There are probably about two to three thousand of these machines in use now as both the man who invented the drum and myself have been selling them as well as Klingspore in the US. The only ones who we really hear from are those that really wanted a commercial machine and found ours just not fast enough. I think I have heard from about 2 or 3 like that.However if you want to wait I understand that American Woodworker magazine is going to feature it in their next edition of their magazine as one of the feature projects. At least the contributing editor contacted me just before Christmas to check to see if there were in changes an to update pricing for the article. They bought their kit last April and have been using it ever since.Nick

   The words that really stand out to me are

   The only ones who we really hear from are those that really wanted a commercial machine and found ours just not fast enough". 

    So I guess you are looking at a cheap-good-but-slow. Another source for free on-line plans http://www.naut-res-guild.org/services/shopnotes/sander/sander.html but this one was intended for tiny material

   I would like to hear from anyone who has made a thickness sander too!

   Cheers

   Mitt 

1. 
   mosswerks | Jan 20, 2003 10:22pm | #7

   MSTEHELIN-

   That is a good point. I am certainly not in need of sanding a number of things quickly. A friend of mine has a huge comercial machine but I hate to run over there and bother him for face frames or smallish items. So slow, cheap and good is what I need.

   -Kim

   berly

1. 
   rslatm | Jan 20, 2003 10:55pm | #8

   I thought thicknessing was part of it.  By all means make that other one. It's by far cheaper and simpler.  The other sanders you referred to much  more complicated and costlier.

2. 
   mosswerks | Jan 20, 2003 11:22pm | #9

   Rick-

   At this stage I would like to see lots of options and hear what people have found that works. Thicknessing is important but I also have a good planer so I could get away with a light duty sander to reduce tear out, or finish sand a number of similar parts. You mentioned you have built a few. What plans did you use? Is it even worth trying or should I save the money and buy a machine down the road?

   _kimberly

3. 
   rslatm | Jan 21, 2003 02:51am | #10

   We didn't use any plans per se. Plus this was back before those articles you mentioned. I have a few friends that were making guitars and we made simple hand feed models to do parts for acoustic guitars. Frankly you are better off saving up and buying the Delta or Performax. By the time you figure out where to scrounge parts and have access to metal working it's cheaper to buy one. Having powerfeed is a big plus because handfed ones will toss the wood across the room if you aren't careful. After looking up the issues you mentioned the one's we made were more like #21 except using screw adjusters instead of wedges. Rough plans like this circulated for years with guitar makers. Frankly with imports I don't see any point in wasting all the time making one. I picked up a used Lobo double drum 20" for cheap years ago. I couldn't get drums for anywhere near that price and I have friends with machine shops. It was Bill Green who really changed things with his Performax machines. No manufacturer would touch his machines so he produced them himself. Until a few years ago when Jet bought him out he and his wife ran the company. His wife sent me a T-shirt once for helping to fix up a customers sander. The only reason to make one is you want to make one. It's gonna take longer and cost more than buying one, especially with a feeder which in my opinion makes a huge difference.

2. 
   rjf | Jan 20, 2003 09:23pm | #3

   Hi Kim,

      I have a design for a cantalevered thickness sander.  I want to offer it in the form of a kit for around $300.  You would then assemble it from the plans.  One interesting option, that I am still in design on is the ability to offer a quick change drum option so users could buy more than one drum and not have to stop to change grits.

      I have a manufacturing plant in central illinois that has the equipment to produce these puppy's but am not sure what demand I might find.  Any opinions?

   Cheers,

   Rob

1. 
   MStehelin | Jan 20, 2003 09:37pm | #6

   That sounds interesting! If it was effective I would give serious thought to buying one.

    I was wondering if you or anyone else had experience with a drum sander on a radial arm saw?

   Cheers

   Mitt

1. 
   rjf | Feb 03, 2003 05:29pm | #13

   I have never used the radial arm saw as a thicknesser but I know that's how performax got its start.  I have been into woodcraft several times to look at the Performax and the Delta.  I have designed a version that is similar (cantalevered) but my goal was to produce a kit out of steel that resulted in a decent basic thicknesser at half the cost of the big guys commercial units.  I have an engineer working on details.  I have scowered the internet for plans and have been inspired by the ingeniousness of the hobbyists. 

   To keep the costs low, I wanted to ship the thing knock down with written instructions.  I was going to build a few prototypes, then produce a small run of say 20 machines and list them on ebay as a "buy it now" product.

   I like the design I currently am considering because it has very few parts minimizing the hardware costs associated with lots of pulleys and chains.  It's relatively easy to fabricate keeping the man assembly hours down (therefore the cost to the user). 

   I would like to offer several options:

   1.  Power Feed (my desing has a hand cranked feed)

   2.  Quick change drums with user options for purchasing additional drums

   3.  Optional planing head utilizing readily available delta planer knives.

   Most important are that what ever I fabricate, It works well, is easy to assemble and operate.  That its inexpensive (at least the base unit).  That the customer gets prompt order fulfilment (keeping the correct inventory on hand).

   The machine is intended to be a hobbyist type machine but capable of operating all afternoon without problems.  I will give more details once the drawings are ready for prime time.

   We have a small machine shop

1. 
   Mach70 | Feb 04, 2003 03:23am | #15

   I look forward to the release of your design. Gotta tell you personally though that the hand-crank power feed would be a deal-killer for me. Unless so equipped it's dirt-cheap and can be easily converted to variable-speed motor drive.

1. 
   rjf | Feb 04, 2003 04:55pm | #16

   Thanks for the feedback.  Rumor has it that Jet will offer a machine around 550.00.  I wanted to be signif lower than them if possible.  But after hearing from a few users, the trend may be to not try to make something as inexpensively as possible.  The problem with the variable speed motors is the cost.  A drive with hardware will add at least an additional $120.00.  Another alternative is to get feed power from the electric motor.  However, this means a significant speed reduction pulley system also increasing the price.  Any thoughts here?

   Among various other machines, we have a basic machine shop with a couple of bridgport end mills, a decent metal saw, a 2000W laser (good for plate steel up to 3/8 inch).  Welders lots of space (100,000 square feet), press brakes, shears, turret presses, etc. 

   Controlling the labor is key, with our costs at around 50.00 per hour.  I need to be able to fabricate the thing with less than 4 hours of labor or I am out of the ball park for cost. 

   I also need to know whether the Performax design for lifiting the sander is pattened, and if so, when the patten expires.  I hear Delta had to change designs to accomodate the pattens held by Performax.

   A closed frame machine is an option, but the cantelevered machines seem to offer the advantage of wider material which would be helpful for face frames, etc...

2. 
   Mach70 | Feb 04, 2003 08:43pm | #17

   I can only speak for myself but a cantilevered design would be ideal.  I can't spare the space needed for a full-framed sander that'll handle 24" doors or such.

   As to the drive question:  Maybe you are right to build a hand-crank version.  I think I would be more interested in an inexpensive basic (but high quality) machine that could be 'improved' by the simple addition of a power feed.  A hand crank implies a simple shaft and enough room to accomodate the swing of the crank.  Plenty of room to add a scavenged motor & drive at a later time.  I like to tinker...and I'm cheap...so this approach appeals to me more than a maxxed-out high dollar version.

3. 
   rjf | Feb 04, 2003 09:50pm | #19

   A couple of factors drive design:

   First and foremost are the intended buyers:  Hobbyist's who will use the machine for at most a couple of hours a day.

   Cost. Performax is an excellent machine and a good value to those who have the applications to support it.  For the rest, a machine costing no more than a benchtop mounted surface planer makes more sense.  (300-400 bucks max).

   Size.  Many shop owners who might otherwise be able to afford the Perofmax, don't have the room.  I am considering how much space might be saved by offering a cantelevered design.  A 13 inch drum (max capacity of 26 inches) would give you the ability to handle the 24 inch panels and frames common to many furniture projects.

   Design.  Design for simplicity (fewer parts, fewer problems).  In this order: Function (Fast setup, accurate adjustment, quick change drums, optional planing head), Durability (all steel welded construction), Simplicity (Fewer parts, fewer headaches).

   I want a machine I can guarantee:  12 Month guarantee on parts, workmanship

   I also gotta be careful not to step on any patents.

4. 
   Jeff | Feb 06, 2003 03:34pm | #21

   Sounds good.

   I'd be interested too.

   Jeff

5. 
   rjf | Feb 06, 2003 07:43pm | #22

   I have recieved a few positive responses.  I think after we are done with design, we will make a couple of prototypes, work out the bugs and put 10 machines up for sale on ebay (buy it now) for as reasonable a price as we can.

   If you have ideas for this machine, I'd sure love to hear them.

2. 
   MikeK50 | Feb 05, 2003 03:25am | #20

   Rob,

   I think that this is price sensitive.  Price it right and you'll sell lots. 

   I would be interested.

   Mike K.

   [email protected]

3. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 21, 2003 05:06am | #11

   Kimberly -

   Here's one I made: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mike_in_katy/ds1.jpg  The bed raises and lowers using the crank.  My arms constitute the 'power feed'.

   look at ds2.jpg thru ds6.jpg, as well.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood

1. 
   dnno215 | Feb 03, 2003 06:40pm | #14

   That looks like a nice set-up. Where could I find the plans?

                                                                         Thanks,

                                                                                 Dan

   i

4. 
   RickL750 | Jan 21, 2003 04:19pm | #12

   Take a look at this post it might help "the poor boys durm sander" 8580.1

   Good luck,

   RickL

5. 
   phenom01 | Feb 04, 2003 08:53pm | #18

   Hi Kimberly:

   For an alternate plan, Wood magazine published one. It was reprinted in their book "Shop-Tested Woodworking Tools You Can Make" ISBN:0-696-20745-1.

   Scott