Hi All,
Well I’ve finally gotten a chance to put forth an effort to re-learn dovetail joints. I did this once before about 15 years ago and got to the point I could sorta make the joint. Anyway this time I didn’t mess around, Bought an LN dt saw and learned to use it (man that thing cuts fast and straight!) and read several dozen articles on technique. I even saw Frank Klause do it live and that was somethings else.
My questions regard the pins or tails first debate. Theoretically I said pins first . But in practice I’m finding tails first easier and it’s only because I find it very hard to cut an angle and keep the saw on the line. Seems easier to me to make this more difficult cut first and let it wander a bit if it wants and scribe off off that for the easier vertical cut which must be accurate.
My tails first joints go together, my pins first do not. For some reason I’m still thinking that pins will be the way to do it because I like the idea of laying the dovetail out this way. Shouldn’t make a difference I imagine.
I am having a time trying to cut that tail from the scribed pin. Any hints to make this more accurate. Also should I decide which way and stick with that or proceed like I’ve been doing which is basically alternating and which ever gets closer faster go with that?
Thanks,
N
Replies
I'm a woodworking "Phillestine". I use the Leigh dovetail jig most of the time. But if I do cut my own dovetails, I've always found tails-first to be simpler. It seems easier to me to tune the pins rather than the other way around. Just my opinion.
I have been taught by two different pros to cut the tails first. An author of a recent article in FWW cut the pins first.
I personally think it is easier to mark the pins after cutting the tails.
In either case, I think it is what you are most comfortable doing and what gives you the best results.
Regards, Paul
Notrix,
I've been going back and forth also..tails or pins first. Like you, it seems the tails first produces better initial fits and outcomes. I use a little jig I made on the TS for the tails..helps keep the saw at the correct angle and no toeing or heeling .. I'm looking for some of the other secrets to improve outcomes. Richard J droped a little pearl yesterday when he said that inthe old days the 'line' was often 1-2mm deep so the chisel could fit in the groove and make production improve...
You're talking of the shoulder line that is scribed with the cutting gauge there BG. That's what the cutting edge of the chisel drops into when paring accurately to the shoulder, and doesn't affect the rake cut by the saw of course.
As to the general theme of this topic, the 'tails first' or 'pins first' argument is moot. If you're going to get into handwork of this nature in a big way, you need to be able to cut either first, and mark the mating part from it, and be able to make the joint fit correctly, preferably straight off the saw.
In some forms of the joint, it's impossible to mark the pins from previously cut tails, but you can mark the tails from previously cut pins. These versions where the pins must be cut first are the secret mitred dovetail, the secret lap dovetail, and the secret double lap dovetail--- I may have missed one or two other versions.
There is one version of dovetailing where neither the pins, nor the tails can be marked from the other previously cut part, and relies entirely on dead measure at marking out, and that version is the double twisted dovetail, ha, ha.
The most common corner dovetails, e.g., for a box or drawer, which by definition are therefore the easiest, can be cut either pins or tails first. These are the basic through, and the lap (half blind) dovetail, and their minor variations. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as RichardJ-- now Sgian Dubh-- again.
For me, tails first
If you're going to get into handwork of this nature in a big way . . .
Sgian, for me, there's the rub. I'm 53 and if I ever thought I'd have enough years left to get into this "in a big way," I'd no doubt think more soberly about learning both (every) ways, but from the perspective of my current age, I'll be perfectly happy if I can even perfect my current "tails first" dovetails to the degree that they please the eye. My hat's off to you true craftsmen--and women.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Sgain,
Yes, the shoulder line, thanks. The deeper scribe has helped clean my cuts up a bit but not to the point I'm willing to through away the saw dust just yet...but much better, thanks.
At one point in a previous thread you mentioned using a router on the shoulder line?..or maybe it was just to remove stock? I think it was on the same thread where you posted the diagram for double twisted dovetail. thanks
Yes, BG, you can use a small plunge router fitted with a side fence and a small diameter cutter to remove the waste between tails, but it's especially handy between pins which are usually spaced further apart. On through or lap versions just cut the bulk of the waste away first with a coping saw. Run the fence of the router against the end grain. If the part is too narrow to safely run the fence against the end, double up the number of parts side by side.
The router can be set to precisely define the shoulder line leaving just a little cleaning out in the corners. For cutting between the pins of drawer fronts, you can set the depth too, and this also works with the secret mitred dovetail, and similar secret lap, and secret double lap dovetail. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as RichardJ-- now Sgian Dubh-- again.
Sgain,
I'm going to try that technique with the router on the pins and the board in the horizontal position. Do you think or have you tried it with the board in the vertical position and a couple of scrap pieces on front and back? Or do you think I'm out of my mind. Thanks
Edited 3/4/2003 10:53:29 AM ET by BG
I've never tried it that way BG. Seems a bit risky trying to balance the router on that narrow end, but with some ingenuity I suppose it could be done. I've done something similar when mortising in the male hook part of the bed hardware into the end of the side rail.
I just run the sole of the router on the inside face of the part to clean between the pins. This way, as long as I only go up to the sawed in rake line with the spinning bit I don't cut away any of the pin. What's left in the corners can be nipped out easily enough with a chisel.
If there's enough space between the tails, I use the router there too, but I plunge down from the outside face of the part.
Whichever approach is used to remove the waste, there's always at least a little final paring. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as RichardJ-- now Sgian Dubh-- again.
Ultimately, the problem with cutting tails first is that all dovetail joints cannot be cut tails first. If you ever get to the point where you are cutting the so-called 'secret'mitred' dovetail, you will have to be able to cut the joint pins first.
Be able to do them both ways.
OOps, I just realised that somebody already mentioned this issue.
Edited 3/4/2003 6:49:58 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Perhaps some already mentioned this, and if so, I apologize. For me, it is harder to cut the tails, but still I am a pins first guy. For the angled cut on the tails, I tilt the stock in the vise to dead vertical, using a square. This makes it a much simpler cut for me. I cut 1/2 one way, shift the stock, and cut the other half. Just a thought.
It doesn't matter too much which is first, pins or tails. Whatever works for you. FWW had an article a few years ago, sort of a showdown between Frid and Klausz (I think) and they both ended up with perfect joints. For ordinary through dovetails tails could be faster because you can cut the tails on several boards simultaneously by ganging them together.
In my experience, on common through and half-blind joints, it seems easier to stabilize the boards on the bench and mark the pins from the tails without accidently shifting a board.
It's funny, but my training never included "chopping out the waste", as we removed the waste with coping saw and forstner bit, and pared to the line. Additionally, there's no Earthly reason to waste your money on high end tools, when the only thing high is the hype & the price. Buy good quality tools and materials, learn to sharpen them well yourself. Find a mentor and practice daily with hardwoods.
Oh yes ......my vote is tails first! Leave the fancy joints for those more practiced .....you can't see most of them in the finished goods anyway.
John in middle Tennessee
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