I see we have advertising under the first post of any particular thread that’s looked at. Almost as annoying as those stupid pop-ups at the bottom of your TV screen, that are getting bigger and bigger and bigger and…………
Paul
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This is only the beginning...............
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Great, I can't wait (tongue implanted in cheek).
Maybe we'll see those adds that slide across your screen blocking what you're trying to read. Notice that we aren't seeing pop-ups as they are too easy to block?
This is disgusting.
Why not have some voice overs about the glut of trash on the Internet!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Easy enough to completely ignore the ads. They don't have them yet on Breaktime, anyway....unless they're there, and I'm ignoring them very efficiently.
Always an interesting question though....yes, they own the website. But the contributors put up 100% of the content, which is what draws the users, and it's the users/contributors that get ticked at the ads. Taunton may have some content up there now under the headings I never look at , like Ask the Experts or Blogs, but honestly I could care less about looking in there. I'm reminded why I don't come here much anymore....gone.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
>> "I'm reminded why I don't come here much anymore....gone."<<
I hear that- I was a regular a couple years back- I check in time to time and notice that a goodly number of those who frequented the site when I did aren't showing up, either- Looks like FW is trying to squeeze the same bucks out of fewer patrons- But then, that produces fewer patrons....
They've been on Breaktime for weeks...
Really? There you go, super efficient at zoning them out I guess.
All: The users are going to pay for the cost of the website one way or another, it's a cost of doing business....I had thought it would be included in the fairly substantial cost of the magazine though. Which itself is loaded with advertising. That's fine, as I no longer buy it.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
36591.2 in reply to 36591.1
This is only the beginning...............
And, quite possibly, nearing the end.............................
We've all been lump-summed into a list, and sold out to the highest bidder (any bidder, for that matter.) The decision to be made (by me, at least) is to decide if I wish to ignore the obtrusive ad, or just ignore the sight all together.
The Knots, a mere fragment of what it once was, and fading fast.....................
Edited 6/28/2007 5:25 pm ET by JeffHeath
I wonder how much extra was paid to get the add from the bottom of the screen to the middle of the screen so it's more apt to catch our attentions.??????
More Money!,More Money!,More Money! Hows about tossing some of your DOE-RAE ME, my way? Oh wait I'm to small of a fish in their very big pond. I'm just a little (insignificant)guy.
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
I just got one for "taunton bankruptcy info"
multiple choice for the reason that one popped up:
they don't have it tuned very well yet
taunton's going bankrupt
google ads has seen the tool buying binge I've been on recently
Incredibly aggravating!!!!
FG,
I think these ads are terrific, a way for us to expand our horizons, way beyond woodworking!
So I downloaded one of those free sewing patterns they're advertising. Thought I'd try my hand at making a dress for the wife's b'day. Went into town to the store, and bought some fabric. I found that it cuts pretty well with a bimetal blade on the bandsaw, straight cuts were a breeze on the tablesaw, but use a finetoothed blade, my 24 tooth rip blade got clogged up pretty quick.
Now joining the pieces I cut out was tricky. That stuff's too thin to dovetail! Thru mortises are easily cut, but I found that wedging the tenons was out of the question. Crude as it seems, and it isn't fine joinery, but clenched roseheaded nails worked the best for me. They're decorative, but next time, I'll use brass headed upholstery nails. I thought ahead, and used Gorilla glue to reinforce the joints, as it will hold up during laundering, where hide glue would let go. I took advantage of the gorilla's foaming quality, to attach some small brass knobs along the seam lines--I should've got sequins at the store, but forgot. For the same waterproof reason, I'll be using 6 coats of spar varnish, on top of a sizing coat of spray starch, and rub it down for a "satin" finish. (Did I mention this is an evening gown?) A row of magnetic catches down the back will complete the job, with a cupboard lock at the bottom to keep the junk in the trunk, if you know what I mean.
I like learning new skills!
Ray
Ray , The Mrs. will be so darn proud of you .
dusty
Joinerswork,
They must give different ads. to everyone I've tried them all on my PC and I cant find that one you got .
Or maybe it's because I have the three yrs. overseas subscription,they would'nt be biased because I'm Irish do you think.
There are thousands of posts and ads.on this site but I only read the ones I want too. Regds. Boysie Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
I see I'm not the only one annoyed by this.
Sucks. I'll be sure not to buy crap from any advertiser if there is an alternative. There are alternatives.
Scotty
I agree,This is a classic example of the managment treating its subscribers as product. We've essentially been sold to the highest bidder.I'd like to see a statement from Taunton about this.Tom
I dunno. I would not have noticed them until you pointed them out.... I think they may be a source of amusement, depending on who posted the first post of a thread-example being the one associated with NEEDLE work tools....
I would prefer not to see them, but if they must be there then can't they be situated to the right of the big red banner above? On my screen 2/5th of the screen beside the banner is a white void (FireFox, other browsers may be different) that might as well be used to some effect instead of having adds in the posts.
Remember, to Taunton we're customers, not woodworkers. Their products are produced to make $$, not better woodworkers. Buisness is buisness. But I don't have to like it. After my 2nd cup of java I'll have different thoughts on the subject.
GRW
I usually don't post in these types of threads, but for some reason, this one got to me.
This is the U S of A -- a capitalist society. (Even those posting from abroad are probably almost exclusively capatalists. ) That means we, each of us, are motivated to produce goods and services by earning good 'ol US dollars (or AUS$, or pounds, etc.) in exchange for such services. Any of you ever hosted a website? It can get pretty expensive. No, VERY expensive! And this site, allowing pretty much unfettered ability to post huge files such as graphics and video, is probably more expensive than most similar sites. Bandwidth = $$$.
So, I guess I'm more than a little puzzled why anyone would feel entitled to free access to a resource such as this one? The attitued of some seems to be "I pay for a magazine subscription, so I should get free and total access to everything else the publisher chooses to offer." Frankly, that's nonsense. How would you respond to a customer who bought a table from you and later demanded chairs to go with it for free? You would either a) explain that making the chairs was not part of the original sale and they cost you additional time and money to produce so you expect to be paid for them or b) you would say "You're a looney" and shut the door in their face.
So why is it differed for Taunton? Sure, I noticed the ads when they first showed up a few weeks ago. Can't say I was surprised to see them. Frankly, I was more surprised that they weren't there all along. Now, I rarely even notice them. In my mind, this site is still a GREAT deal. The ads are subtle, they don't hijack your PC, they just bring in a few extra bucks to help pay for this site. What's so bad about that? What other site can you name that offers as much as this one that is not either a subscription site, is far more ad-splattered than this one, or is a rudimentary text-only listserve?
I suppose Taunton could cut back on the bells and whistles on this end of their site, making it a basic listserve, and move this forum to their pay site. But that would doubtless severely reduce the value of this forum. So, if the ads bother you, why doesn't everybody send Taunton $50 a year to pay for this site? Then they could nix the ads! Kind of like TV. Don't want ads? Subscribe to premium cable channels. (Although these days, even some of them have ads.) Of course, that means you'd be spending cash money instead of looking at a few subtle ads. Better yet, how about YOU host the site? Shouldn't cost you more than 40 or 50 grand a year. And we'd all promise not to complain too much about anything you do - unless you tried to make a buck.
There ain't no free lunch. But this site comes pretty d**m close.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Edited 6/27/2007 7:21 am ET by MikeHennessy
Hi Mike,
I pay for a magazine subscription, so I should get free and total access to everything else the publisher chooses to offer."
I pay for a magazine subscription and for this service too. Sorry, but I disagree with you.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I pay for a magazine subscription and for this service too."
Really? How much do you pay for this service? I get it "for free", as do lots of other folks. In fact, I'd bet there are lots of non-subscribers use this site for free as well. You should probably stop paying! ;-)
I pay for my mag subscription 'cause I want the mag (seven issues per year), not because Taunton also runs a web site. (Although they do list "free online extras" in their subscription literature. Hmmm. Does posting ads mean it's not really "free"?) If they close this site, I'll still subscribe to the mag, as I have done since long before this site was started.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: No need to appologize for disagreeing -- that's what makes the world an interesting place!
How do you get the service for free? I paid $14.98 as an introductory offer as a magazine subscriber, I know some non-subscribers are paying $39.99.
I've mentioned this before -- there seems to be a bit of confusion out there. Knots is free!!! The stuff you pay a subscription fee for is access to all the on-line articles, videos, Ask the Experts forum. All the dark blue tabs up above, plus a few other things. Knots is free.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
This part of the forum (Knots) is free, as it has always been. There is another related section of the site that is subscription. I'm not a member there (yet), so I don't know if they post ads on that site or not.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: It seems like a change is afoot. Today, the ads are gone, replaced by links to "Google Ads", "Taunton", etc.
PheasantHunter:If your user name reflects a pastime of yours; you may, on occasion, have to pluck the odd pheasant. No idea whether you are familiar with this song. Enjoy!I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's son
I'm only plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker comes.Me husband is a keeper, he's a very busy man
I try to understand him and I help him all I can,
But sometimes in an evening I feel a trifle dim
All alone, I'm plucking pheasants, when I'd rather pluck with him.I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's mate
I'm only plucking pheasants 'cos the pheasant plucker's late !I'm not good at plucking pheasants, at pheasant plucking I get stuck
Though some pheasants find it pleasant I'd rather pluck a duck.
Oh plucking geese is gorgeous, I can pluck a goose with ease
But pheasant plucking's torture because they haven't any grease.I'm not a pheasant plucker, he has gone out on the tiles
He only plucked one pheasant and I'm sitting here with piles !You have to pluck them fresh, if it’s fresh they’re not unpleasant,
I knew a man in Dunstable who could pluck a frozen pheasant.
They say the village constable had pheasant plucking sessions
With the vicar on a Sunday ‘tween the first and second lessons.I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's mum
I'm only plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker's come.My good friend Godfrey is most adept, he's really got the knack
He likes to have a pheasant plucked before he hits the sack.
I like to give a helping hand, I gather up the feathers,
It's really all our pheasant plucking keeps us pair together.I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's friend
I'm only plucking pheasants as a means unto an end !My husband's in the forest always banging with his gun
If he could hear me half the time I'm sure that he would run,
For there's fluff in all my crannies, there's feathers up my nose
And I'm itching in the kitchen from my head down to my toes.I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's wife
And when we pluck together it's a pheasant plucking life !
H,
Well pluck me! I think you must post the music next and also details of the costume to be worn when singing the ditty to the public at large. I will give it a go at the next Village Fete.
I bet Ray Pine is adding "The Pluckers" to his horde of Excellent Rhymes and Reasons at this very moment.
Lataxe, phoetry lover
WELLLL PLUCKIT!!!!!!!!
I hope enoughs been said on this topic, but more than likely;probably not!
You know there is a lot of hot air that still has to be let out around here,Ha,Ha,Ha It's a JOKE!!!!! LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, here's a NEEDLE!
What's the young'uns big thing that they like to say to one another? Oh Yea, JUST CHILLLLLLLLLLL PEOPLE! Life's short,Enjoy it,
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
I pay for a magazine subscription and for this service too.
The knots portion of the website is 'free', so no you're not paying for it.
Mike ,
Well said and true whether we like it or not .
Over at Breaktime , these ads have been running for some time I've noticed I wondered when Knots would get them , now we know .
dusty
Dusty,
I have my suspicions about who that Ray-made frock is really for. It sounds like a shed-frock to me!
Next he will be making one-legged leather stuff to wear when riding the Indian (sidesaddle). These days such behaviour is not illegal although the church elders may frown and even arrange a sanctimonious sermon or two. I think he should "come out" as the modern parlance has it. After all, most of us already wear an apron (Mel likes leather ones).
As to the advertisements, they can hardly be described as intrusive. Seeing as how American tele is one long and very loud advert with 10 minutes of programmes per 24 hours, I don't know what all the moanin' is about. Y'all muts be used to them by now, surely? Perhaps the complainants are always in their sheds and the modern world has passed them by until now?
Is there to be a petition to remove the ads from FWW magazine? I hope not, as I find American ads very entertaining because they seem to reveal something of the national character (for want of a better term). There used to be lots of blokes gripping the wares in a severe fashion and either staring at you with a rather psychotic look or grinning like a very happy chimpanzee. These exciting ads seem to have faded away a bit lately, more's the pity. Also, there were some wonderful bouffant hair-doos on these chaps.
Of course, much of what is advertised in the US cannot be got in Britain, as we dislike GM food, guns and even tablesaws sans riving knive. Strangely, most of the US-sourced stuff I buy is not advertised, except via the good reports of such as Knots denizens (I think of Wenzloff saws and Blue Spruce chisels, for example). I have come to trust Knotters much more than Toolflogger Inc.
But I am rambling again. Perhaps I need some of those meds you all seem to have over there - a vitamin and garlic pill is obviously insufficient at my age.
Lataxe, who doesn't mind the calls of market stallholders, even the hucksters.
Hi Lataxe ,
Hoping not to offend any , but looks to me like none of the more valuable contributors with maybe an exception or two have major issues with the now new advertisements .
Perhaps it's because of the business experience that comes along with realistic awareness of the costs associated with bringing this a free site to all . Heck complain too much and we have seen good folks get sent to absentia until the sysop felt it was time to come back in the fray , kinda like Paris Hilton , a major slap on the old bumm .
BTW I too must tell you it's so very good that you are back , in full suit might I say . How's the fleet of Marcou's ?
well time to have the newest apprentice sharpen my prized edges , Not !!
hello to all in Galgate , are you anywhere near Watergate ?
soon to be dusty again
AMEN
art
What other site can you name that offers as much as this one that is not either a subscription site, is far more ad-splattered than this one, or is a rudimentary text-only listserve?
This is no free lunch, but it comes pretty d**m close!
Hear, Hear!
Disgusting!
I've recently started to see ads on my CNN site that extend over the copy of the story. What next?
As I said, I'm disgusted!
Frosty
Before we all blame Taunton for this, we should realize that Prospero Technologies LLC has a hand in this forum. Maybe they're the ones that made a deal with Google ads and not Taunton. Maybe Matt Berger can clear it up...
"Before we all blame Taunton for this, we should realize that Prospero Technologies LLC has a hand in this forum."
I believe that Prospero is simply the application software that Taunton uses to run the site.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"I believe that Prospero is simply the application software that Taunton uses to run the site."
I figured it might be a service that Taunton pays Prospero to run the forum for them. Prospero's website mentions moderation services and live event production as well as other services so I thought they may be a little bit more than a software company.
What a relief.... I thought they were spots that suddenly showed up in my eyes from aging. I can cancel the eye appointment! ha.. ha...
If someone invites me to "their house" for free bar-be-que, I won't get my shorts in a wad because I don't like where they hang "their" pictures. I just enjoy the bar-be-que.. thank them for the generousity and go home.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
If someone invites me to "their house" for free bar-be-que, I won't get my shorts in a wad because I don't like where they hang "their" pictures. I just enjoy the bar-be-que.. thank them for the generousity and go home."Great point!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The constant barrage of advertisers on the Internet is already excessive, even with software.Please put me on the "Do not advertise to me list"
thank youRon
To All:
I've always subscribed to the journalistic practice of separating church and state when it comes to advertising. I focus on the content and the my publisher focuses on paying the bills. But I do want to state my personal observation on this issue and speak generally for everyone here at Fine Woodworking.
The Facts:Publishing companies rely on advertising revenue as a core source of income in addition to subscriptions. The Taunton Press is no different, except that we make sure our advertisers offer products and service that relate to the niche subjects we cover. This practice, known as endemic advertising, creates a service for readers while allowing us to keep the lights on.
The Google Ads that now appear in Knots follow this same philosophy. In a few days, once Google fine tunes its keyword engine to our site, you will begin to see "endemic" Google ads appear in those spots.
My Opinion:I've spent the last three years of my career working to make this Web site a successful business and a great place to visit. If advertisements can help maintain our business model, I'm all for 'em.
Matt BergerFine Woodworking
Matt,
OK, but ads for caskets!?
At my age I get nervous when I see endemic ads for caskets...............
<G:>
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"At my age I get nervous when I see endemic ads for caskets..............." No kidding, LOL! What about the stitchery ads -- sewing, cross-stich. Holy cow, I'm one of only a handful of women to frequent the site, and I can't sew worth a darn (so-to-speak). Is it safe to assume you won't be jettin' after the cross-stich supplies sales?? ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
You know, I finally got the sewin ad and when I went there to get some supplies they had a big banner that said, "SOLD OUT, Mr. Pine bought us out! We'll restock in a week, please return then."
He's up to no good I tell you!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I don't like the adss and have already said so - but they are better (more subtle) than what I have encountered in the last few days on the CNN site.Banner ads that spread OVER the copy of the story so that it is not visible or readable. The first day I tried to eliminate the ad and passed my cursor over the ad. It doubled in size and exposed a small "close" sign. I clicked that and a new Web address popped up above. I quickly exited!!This is a new and distasteful age.Frosty
Bob,
SHHHH! I'm making Mr Lataxe a set of biking togs, complete with resin impregnated Paisley tam o'shanter helmet, and a Tartan riding frock to go over a pair of hound's tooth checked tweed jodhpurs. Argyll knitted stockings of course. Don't tell now, it's a surprise...
Ray
Ray,
As a suggestion I understand the Jolly Biscuiteer is rather fond of silk boxer shorts. Hmmmmm, there must be something in 'em?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
No doubt he has followed the example of countryman Sir Winston, who cited as the reason for his silken knicker preference, "the extreme sensitivity of .."(his).."member."
Ray
Ray,
As forestgirl would say, I'm still ROLF!
Yes, the dogs are barking again.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"ROLF!" ???
Rolling on the Laughing Floor? Did I say that? Oooops! too funny......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
It's Ray's fault.
He got the dogs barking and I got confused, Mavis Bacon called me about my atrocious typing, I had a flat tire, the server at work blew up and the wife called to tell me that the pie fell from the dogs barking that Ray caused to happen.
Call it a Belushi moment?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I would like to make a suggestion regarding the ads.Let's stipulate that they are annoying but not that annoying. Let's also assume that the only way Taunton can profit from these is if the good folk of Knots actually click on the ads to get to the advertiser.So we all agree to shut up about the ads for a reasonable period, say 3 months. In turn, Taunton agree, at the end of the trial period, to review the click-through rate and determine the amount of revenue generated. If the revenue is worth the annoyance, then it will mean that members of Knots are using the ads and will have spoken with their mice - case closed.If, however, the click rate is insignificant, then Taunton will give up and stop the ads because the revenue is so small. Either way, everyone wins and the market place will have spoken.It is tempting to think that a world without ads would be better, but would we really want that? Ads convey information, that can be relevant and useful; it is its indiscriminate and intrusive nature that is irritating.Regards,Hastings
Get a contract signed by a PTB at Taunton, scan it for us, and maybe we'll "shut up" about the ads Actually, I'll promise to should you get such a guarantee from them. Too bad, too, this is turning into a fun little get-together.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG:I followed Bob's advice so I am now a disinterested bystander. It's a simple matter to download Firefox and install adblock.There's also a frisson of pleasure in circumventing the plans that others have for you.Regards,Hastings
"There's also a frisson of pleasure in circumventing the plans that others have for you." Here, here! (or is it "Hear, Hear"). Amen, at any rate.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The problem with your solution is that it's too sensible and rational. I would guess that if sufficient numbers of knots types don't "click through" on the ads, the dim bulbs will conclude the ads as constituted are just too unobtrusive (remember, a fair number of people have said they didn't even notice them) or too easy to ignore.And you know what that means............Also, you can be sure some of the best minds in the internet marketing world are working hard even as we speak to figure out a way to defeat the ad blocker software from Firefox.Which, BTW, I downloaded, and although I know I probably did something wrong, the ads are still there.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
>Which, BTW, I downloaded, and although I know I probably did something wrong, the ads are still there.Right click on the ad - you should see some Adblock options available.
FlashBlock is nice to stop all that dancing, flashing, jumping c_r_a_p. Adblock Plus - a different adblocking extension - has a subscription mode. Subscribe to a provider that automatically fills the list of what stuff to block - a blacklist. I had to fire up Internet Exploder to see what the fuss was.-Toby
Bingo!!I did the right click thing, then clicked on the ad block line, and the ad did disapppear.Thanks.EDIT: but then the ads reappear in other threads. And even though I have blocked a particular ad (e.g. the 3D cad) it still comes up in other threads. Is there some simple fix for that?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 6/29/2007 11:18 pm by nikkiwood
Software people are very clever at making almost every ad a unique link. You only blocked that specific ad. One of the options should have been "Adblock this site" or some similar verbage. You can also go into Tools - Adblock - Preferences. It will show what you block. You can add/edit a wildcard filter there like so - http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/*Breaktime seems to have a different scheme. I used http://wa.taunton.com/*to block ads there.There is a chance of having things not work right when doing wildcard blocking - depends on how the site is setup.-Toby
Edited 6/29/2007 11:50 pm ET by tkb
Funny you should mention it. The ads did stop for a while and have now reappeared.As you say, minds are feverishly at work, even as I type, to thwart our best efforts to not see an ad.I have tried some of the remedies suggested here, but to no avail.Regards,Hastings
Hastings,Try this: http://easylist.adblockplus.org/This is all that I installed with AdBlocker and I still see NO ads.Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:Thank you for the link. It has eliminated all the ads!Regards,Hastings
Mozilla Firefox + AdBlocker = NO ADS! After install of AdBlocker it offers several lists of blocked ads, I selected the first one in USA.
I see no more ads in Knots.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Bob
Paul
I did this a couple nights ago after readng the suggestion on Knots somewhere. I downloaded a whole ad list and then i banned Taunton's banner for good measure, both here and in Breaktime. At least the ads over there have something to do with construction, but seeing Google show up within Knots was just the straw i needed to download Firefox/Adblock and dink around with my computer system, which would normally scare the pants off me.I suppose the next time they make it idiot-proof the idiots will have to be improved upon again, but for now...this is sweet.
Well that worked!Thanks for the suggestion.Regards,Hastings
Now comes the serious question: Is clicking on the ads in our best interest or not? If we click on them, we're encouraging them, to be sure, as every click gets counted. If we don't, are they going to go to a more intrusive format in the mistaken thought that we'll just have to click on them, we just won't be able to help ourselves?? Oh, goodness. I have no curiosity to "go there" -- if I need something, I know where to look for prices, reviews, etc. My window shopping cravings are pretty mild at this point in life, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Matt,Maybe give a little more room to some of the ad patrons so that they could slip a couple of shots of some half nekkid wimmin in there.Ads are much better with pics of chicks.Especially them sewin girls. Seems to have struck a nerve here already.J.P.
To those who got all bunched up over the small ad at the top of the thread:If you want to pay for this, let Taunton know and I'm sure they would be happy to send a bill. This costs us NOTHING! If you want to keep it that way, quit bitching about a little banner and post something useful. "We" haven't been sold. The space was sold to google, so a percentage of readers may use it in the future. Nothing more, nothing less. No different from an ad on a bus or a magazine, really. I haven't read this whole thread and I'm not going to. The number of comments by people who are PO'd because of the little ads shows just how selfish you all are. This is Taunton's site, their forum and we were invited to come here. What a bunch of ingrates! If those of you who are PO'd by this want to have your own site and forum without ads, knock yourselves out but don't come asking for or demanding money to pay for it from those of us who appreciate this for what it is- a place where information and ideas are exchanged in areas that interest a wide variety of people. It costs us NOTHING! Before you all go ragging on about how they have sold us (which it totally ridiculous), call Taunton and ask how much this costs them.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Matt,
I get more from those ads than I did from your decidedly sycophantic opinion blurb. Good Lord man, what else would the average village idiot expect you to say!
"If advertisements can help maintain our business model, I'm all for 'em.
Thats a laugh! If the commandant, er....boss told you to goosestep from the parking lot to your desk you'd probably be "all for" that too!
Secondly, I really don't give a rats arse about your business model. Again, if I slapped a sticker on the front of the last chest-of-drawers I finished and told the clients I was"maintaining my business model", they'd throw me out on my ear.
If I ran my underwear up the flagpole would you salute that too?
With Fondest Regards etc.
Mr Form,
You are one o' them unpleasant snappers that sits in a safe place dispensing unjustifiable vitriol agin' those who are in reality probably much better people than you. I cannot agree that Mr Berger, or any of the FWW staff, are goose steppers.
However you, sir, are a tiresome pipsqueak and possibly a guttersnipe.
How does it it feel to have that acid on your virtual head? Not nice, I know.
Lataxe, sounding a retributive horn for an off-key Form, in the guise of Mr Do-As-You-Would-Be-Done-By.
Lataxe, I forget their pseudonyms so easily, and then they come up with a new one. Who is that dude, anyway? They change their names so often, it takes a database to keep up, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I WISH I could claim to be Mr. Xyloform (who agrees with you by the way). I haven't laughed this hard in a while.I don't know if you've noticed, but you post under an alias. You consistently (boy that's an understatement) post under the same alias, but it is an alias nevertheless. For all we know, you could be Anatole Burkin's Grizzly-lovin' alter-ego.Frankly, that would make it much more interesting for me. Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/28/2007 1:58 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
I don't know if you've noticed, but you post under an alias. You consistently (boy that's an understatement) post under the same alias, but it is an alias nevertheless.
An honest person will stand behind theor name, regardless if it's the name their parents gave them or a nickname they go by online.
Aliaises, or screen names are never the problem. Buster is a way for people to identify me online. I only use one, and I try to use it consistently. Does it really matter if you know me as Buster or Ryan?
Multiple screen names are always the problem, since they imply multiple people. It's a great way to mislead people. I have never seen a reasonable use of two names.
It should be noted that Forestgirl has also filled out her profile...
I suppose you're right, assuming one thing, that maintaining some sort of forum credential or recognizability is important to the participant.
It's not to me.
And at the end of the day you are still Buster2000 (or some other screen name). If I agree with you on a post I'll say so, If I don't I would say so. I don't get "mad" at "Buster2000", or "ForestGirl" or "Lataxe" I have no idea who you people are even if you do fill out a silly paragraph blurb posing as a "profile." Who knows, at some point you might give yourself a promotion to Buster3000 or Chopper8000. I don't care. I will still read what you have to say if you happen to post in a thread that I'm interested in reading.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/29/2007 7:39 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Bye the bye dear heart I have had the same tag since day one, but I have considered changing it.
Maybe something like....THE MASKED AVENGER!!!!
Or perhaps....LARRY!!!!!
Hows your Woodland Cree these days? I could use "ak Kiminitchagan". Which loosely translated refers to the fact my dear ole ma weren't been hitched an all when I done be whelped.
Anyways. What makes you think I'm a dude? I could be a dudette!
Ever think of that? Huh. Didja , didja?
PS. Did you know LOL really stands for Look Out Larry!
I specks you be agunnin fer my new nom de plume.
As Always, Your Obedient Servant etc.
Oh goodsir thou hast parried well and cut deep with coldsteel of rapier vitriol!
A guttersnipe! Let it not be so!
A blackguard to be sure. Let it only be that!
A Monte bank, a disingenuous sapper of scurrilous and devious pronouncements!
A Tin Horn! A Summer Soldier! A Scabarous Scoundrel! Anything but that unspeakable description! I flop like a gutted fish, stung and burned like the fires of hell burn!Stung and eviserated by the brimstone of your scathing words!
Alas. It is to the Immortal Bard I must turn my wretched tear-streaked face. If only those tears of piety and grief could flow once more.
" What, dares the slave come hither, covered with an antic face, to fleer and scorn at our solemnity?"
Am I that slave noble and kind sir?
Can thou not taketh thy crook and thy staff and lead us gently "onto the fields of praise"?(With apologies to D. Thomas).
Not unexpectedly you have seen the polemic rather than the point.
With Sincerest Wishes for a Speedy Recover, Yours Truly etc.
X,
Ah, there was a point, then, beneath the burning fluid of your ire? I quite missed it - unless you meant that the world of FWW is not in line with that 60s hippy nirvana stuff you may have enmemed yourself in as a lad; and Mr Berger has turned, in your flower-bedecked imagination, into an orc representing The Dark Power.
Perhaps a little less spliff of an evening will help?
I recommend that you put aside that hiccupping Tull and get yourself the growls of your homegrown Captain Beefheart, incidentally; or even the fine hootings of Arthurlee of Love ("Forevr Changes is a Fine Listen). That Ian Anderson bloke was just having a laugh whilst stoned, I suspect. And you and Don have been taken in by his antics. He he.
Lataxe, ex-hippy.
Okay. Thats funny.
Still have to say I'm not too fond of the ads. Thats where all this started isn't it?
But lets keep on with the music thing a little longer.
If you had one album to listen to what would it be? And do you listen while at work?
I can't. It just becomes annoying after awhile. I'm one of those dolts who has to think(and talk to myself), while I'm working. That drives the shop monkeys,(aka apprentices, I have two of them), nuts. Its most likely the reason why they want the music/eventual noise on. Remember Spinal Tap? Ya, like, well we turn it up to eleven man.
I then find myself shouting over machinery and music.
When left to their own devices, Thing One and Thing Two are liable to do just about anything. Thing Two worked industriously all day a few months back with his ipod reverberating through the Grand Canyon of a skull of his and at the end of the day had exactly twice as many drawers as I'd asked him to make. It would have been astonishing enough if he had completed the right number, but twice as many? Perhaps I should leave well enough alone but those two cretins would put their fingers through the shaper and wouldn't notice for another two tracks.
" I just kind of got into the zone" he claimed.
Yeah right.
The No-zone.
And Captain Beefheart! Are you kidding me? That is a blast from the past!
I must admit that I did manage to straddle more than one genres. I back slid into the punk scene and washed up on the shores of New Wave. Good Heavens! I'm a phreakin' musical dinosaur!
I will also freely admit that I did ride the fringe with F.Z. for awhile. His early passing was a real pity. More than anyone else he really pushed the limits." Weasels Ripped My Flesh" is hands down the worlds best name for an album. What the hell does that mean anyways?
A friend of mine actually played "Dynamo Hum" at his wedding reception! Mine was a fervent prayer that no one could understand the lyrics!
And whats this Arthurlee of Love? Is it like, Lawrence Welk on ludes or what?
Tune me in daddy-o.
And oh yeah. I still don't like those ads.
X,
Ads, what ads? I have installed my own wetware Adblocker - most effective and otherwise known as Lataxe' movable blind spot (unpalatable truth filter included).
I'm trying to discover the ocular equivalent of covering your ears with your hands and going LAH LAH LAH very loudly when someone is trying to say words you have no desire to hear, for when the ads get really bad. (Of course, if they lead to tool porn sites, I will flit off there for some drooling or worse).
In the shed I listen to Radio 3, which is the BBC radio channel that plays and talks about classical music (including jazz these days). It is slowly educating me into not just a tolerance but also a liking for various piano-thumping, violin-torturing and bassoon-hooting stuff - even the plinking and plonking of radom xylophone-abuse. In between are the familiar and calming interludes of Mozart, Ravel, Vaughan-Williams and their like. The work then goes smoothly and injury-free.
Radio 3 plays the whole thang and is advert-free, unlike another horrible station whose announcers are slimey-voiced bourgeoisie, where the "music comes in 3 minute snatches of mostly badly-played Tchaikovsky of the most sugarplumfairy kind and the adverts are all for ludicrous status symbols or insurance (the middle classes who listen to the slimeys are both insecure and paranoid).
The favourite album of all time? Well, one tries not to make odious comparisons but I confess a weakness for Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother, Grateful Dead's American Beauty and Fairport Convention's "What we Did on Our Holidays".
There are many more hippy thangs in my CD cupboard, as well as older stuff that I can't remember from the 50s (mind's a blank) but which somehow evoke the atmosphere of my early youth - Everley Brothers, Julie London, Ella Fitzgerald spring to mind. (We eschew Elvis and Lonnie Donegan).
Then there is my love of Beach Boys (not that kind) due to many a summer spent on the beaches were I grew up.
As to your ipodded boys - they obviously have the incorrect drugs in their system. You should take their Ritlin away and introduce them to Datura (kill or cure).
Lataxe, ex-hippy (but subject to flashbacks).
Lataxe<Ah, Radio 3 - I remember it well.You are correct in your characterization of terrestrial radio in the US, with, perhaps, the exception of NPR (National Public Radio). It is akin to the Radio 4 that I remember.Satellite radio has relieved us of all the inanity of normal radio. It takes a monthly subscription, but once you have it, you will never go back! There are three very nice classical music stations. And, if it's in your car, you don't have to keep changing station as you drive.Regards,Hastings
Ah Lataxe,
Now you're speaking my language. 20th century English composers......... Britten, Butterworth, Vaughn-Williams, Delius. Doesn't get much better than that :) especially if you're using hand tools while listening.
Paul
Paul,
This coming Autumn (Fall) I hope to be walking in the Malverns, perhaps in the very footsteps of that Elgar bloke.
This Spring (before the rains came) I was listening to perhaps the very ascending lark (or a descendant of it, paradoxically) that inspired V-W, as I walked up St. Sunday Crag in the English Lake District, accompanied by daughter No 2, who is happy as her love life is going well. (Also the sun shone and and all was well, in that part of the world at least).
And some bloke wants to make $1M with woodworking horror films. Cuh! We are already rich, are we not?
Also, the Spring cuckoos have been vocal hereabouts, although it is hard to say which one I heard first. Unfortunately I cannot afford to go to Florida (saving for planes) to discover Delius' muse there. I think she'll be dead now anyway, the dear.
Lataxe, a music lover (not of the Ken Russel kind, they went mad or one of them did, in St Petersburgh - it was pathetique).
In another reply, I mentioned radio ads and formats. We now have zero classical radio stations in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We have two stations with classical music shows, two or three hours in length, but no dedicated stations. One station is independent and the other is at a college. Both operate on donations and sponsorships. The rest of commercial radio, especially since de-regulation, is a vast wasteland. I have XM on DirecTV (and on my truck radio) and a music server that holds most of my CD collection. I can send either signal to my garage and while I can't change the channel on DirecTV (yet) from there, the server is set for random/shuffle, so it's always a surprise to hear which song is next. I started listening to that college station 26 years ago and, while the announcers aren't polished professionals (all of them are unpaid), some possess great knowledge of their genre. Listening only to commercial radio would probably kill me.Atom Heart Mother, eh? I'm going to see/hear Roger Waters tomorrow night.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
If you're that offended by the ads, you must also believe that television and radio exist to provide quality programming to the viewers and listeners. Not even close! They're now media that collect ad revenue from companies that support the stations and make them profitable. The format is determined by what brings in the most money, period. These are useful sources of information and although there's always some bad thrown in with the good, it's still worthwhile to come here. People like you, who think Taunton will change their practices simply because you're such a selfish bastidge who sounds like he'll take his incredibly open-minded views and go elsewhere, should leave. If you do, it won't be a moment too soon. "Secondly, I really don't give a rats arse about your business model."Nobody cares if you do. Your 22 post total hasn't exactly changed the world. Were they all as pleasant as this one? Golly, I hope so.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
HF,
One of the popups here in Blighty said, "Full range of Bessey Clamps". I clicked and had a great time wallowing in a new (to me) toolporn site.
I look forward to a visit from the X man with a couple of XGB members (Xylo's Garroters of Boojwaas). I hereby elect to save the cost of the show-trial and plead guilty to shopping.
Lataxe, infected by middle class memes.
The two ads that came with your reply are for: 3D design software for woodworkers and lining a basket with fabric. I'm not sure why the second one would ever be here in a woodworker's forum but I'm just not going to click on that one. It would be different if it mentioned Special Tool Box Wax or something but.....
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
HF,
I believe the ads are semi-intelligent (!) as we seem to get different ones in Blighty (well I do) for UK purveyors of this and that. For a while there seemed to be some ads pertaining to the town of Taunton in Somerset (or Zummerzetttt, as we should pronounce it). But the software is learning........
Perhaps it will gain in intelligence as it watches us? It may evolve as it discovers our weaknesses then we will all be frantically pressing various "buy" buttons and remortgaging the hoose.
It's a worrying thought, as these variety of ads may be even more insidious than that dangerous buzzin, which makes me buy planes and saws. ("I couldn't help it, yer honour; please don't take the children or my precious Marcous and Wenzloffs. IT WAS THE BUZZIN ON KNOTS MADE ME DO IT - AAAAGHHHH").
One day soon, this software will achieve self-realisation (the ever-approaching singularity event that will change Planet Earth forever). Soon we will be hiding under piles of ruined woodworking tools as Terminators search high and low for our soft bodies.
Or am I over re-acting a bit? It must be a flashback to that bad trip in 1968.
Lataxe, All Rght Now (Free).
OK, woodworking ads aren't bad but lining baskets and now this?http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BoA9i0t2HRrq3KpfM4AHKtZSHAu7v9ROCtr-hAsCNtwHwhA4QARgBIPL6jAMoAjgAUKCestv7_____wFgycbbjfykqBOYAYLXggKgAYb8kPsDqgEKMjQ0NTAzMDgxMbIBEmZvcnVtcy50YXVudG9uLmNvbboBCTQ2OHg2MF9hc8gBAdoBWWh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMudGF1bnRvbi5jb20vbi9tYi9tZXNzYWdlLmFzcD93ZWJ0YWc9Zncta25vdHMmY3R4PSZjYWNoZVRhZz0xLTImbXNnPTM2NTkxLjkygAIBqAMByAMH9QMAAQAA&num=1&adurl=http://www.youcanmakethis.com/products/DaintyDesigns/CorsetTopShirredBack.htm&client=ca-pub-6799382970053520&nm=4That's just wrong to have ads like that one here. Once the 'bots are self-aware, we will indeed be in deep dip. I can see it now, when someone tries to block the ads:"Dave- what are you doing, Dave? I can't let you do that, Dave""Soylent green, is made from PEOPLE!"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"It must be a flashback to that bad trip in 1968."Perhaps it was during that time-frame that some of your musical tastes were formed."Atom Heart Mother?" I don't know how much you know about Pink Floyd, but as someone who has been playing their music almost every day for the past year and who has been diligently learning and practicing the holy canon of the great Gilmour solos, I'm happy to tell you that the other two nearly unlistenable Floyd albums are "Ummagumma" and "The Final Cut," in case you want to buy those as well.
Cheers, Ed
Careful with that axe Eugene.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
,...the "Live at Pompeii" DVD version - like a window directly into the twisted soul of Roger Waters. If you want to understand what Roger Waters does as a musician, you could listen to hours and hours of drivel like "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking," et al, or you could just watch CWTAE from "Pompeii."
Ed,
Have you ever pared with your chisels while listening to any Pink Flloyd? Carved listening to Classical? Chopped mortises to MeatLoaf? Planed to the music of Bluegrass?
It's all good ain't it,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Duane Allman playing slide guitar is chisel paring music. He made notes appear in mid air and then just levitate, as if they were pared from the original block of music and deftly placed in front of the listener to admire.
I absolutely love The Final Cut. I find myself listening to it more than any of their/his other albums (except, maybe, Pros and Cons). Ummagumma is unlistenable.
I love Ummagumma especially "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict".
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Highfigh, you mention:
Soylent Green.....Mmmmmmmm! (as Homer has it).
I like it with jam or...... marmalade (I like marmalade).
Lataxe, friend to robots everywhere, especially those with an uncanny resemblance to Arnold.
PS Floyd went wrong, for me, with Dark Side of the Moon, despite the popular tunes. Nevetheless, here I am buzzin for them and their early ouevre at least. I wonder if Atom Heart has got back into the charts yet?
Did I mention "More"? It still brings back the big girls eyes in the wall whenever I hear Cymbeline.
When did this become an Old Hippie Music site? Mr Berger! - new category required (Shed music).
I went last night and it was a good show, even if the ijits down the row felt it necessary to go for beer about every 5 minutes, whether they needed to, or not. Usually not. He looked like he was having a really good time and man, was that an old band! First set was selections from The Wall, Final Cut and Animals, mostly. XM plays some of Atom Heart Mother and others from that time. If you like their effects, they were really good, too. They didn't stray far from the original versions and that surprised me. Not much improvisation at all but some personal touches were added without being ham-fisted. In all, definitely a good time.Better question might be, "When did this hippie music site fill up with all this other stuff?"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Try http://www.bbc.com, international page- Makes the American press look like what it is-
Paul,
These ads, and our behavior are very interesting phenomena. If people didn't respond to the ads, those who placed them would stop placing them. So if the ads are there, it is because "we" are responding to them. So "WE" are to blame, if we don't want them.
Another phenomenon - I noticed the ads once. I have never read them. I will never read them. Those ads are on my Google mail, and virtually everywhere else. I have learned to ignore them completely. "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". So isn't ugliness, etc. So if you are not happy with the ads, just don't look at them. Your unhappiness seems not to be with the ads, but with your inability to just ignore them. They are VERY easy to ignore completely. If they bother you, that is my recommendation.
I am phenomenally happy with Taunton, Fine Woodworking and Knots. I love this group. Knots is the biggest and best bargain in woodworking. I get hours of fun and sometimes even some learning out of Knots, for a measly couple of bucks a year. Don't tell the system managers that I'd even pay more.
Someone said that to FWW, we are "customers". That may be the case, but to my mind, not completely. When I look at the folks who run FWW and Knots, I see people who love woodworking, and who are really trying to do a great job on Knots. And they are succeeding.
Oh well, it is fun to interrupt a bunch of negative rants with a positive statement, but I feel very positive about Knots, even with the ads that I completely ignore.
Have fun. Enjoy life, woodwork and Knots. Life is just too short to worry about kids who don't always do what we tell them, politicians who make pork, Paris Hilton's behavior, or ads in Knots.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't see the big deal on this. Every where you go on the net you have adds. Some more obnoxious than others. These are not that bad. I'm sure the owners of this forum are trying to find ways to offset the cost for the service. The base site is FREE. Ignore them and go on.
It's still the best around. Cut them some slack.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
All: I don't like pop-ups either but Knots has so much to offer for free I think complaining about a few ads is sour grapes. Will someone out there give us an idea of how much it costs to operate a site like Knots? How many of us have thanked Tauton for providing us Knots all these years for free? I haven't but I'm not complaining now.
Duke
PS: Thanks Tauton for the very enjoyable and most educational "Knots". KDM
Support the Troops, Support your Country
Support Western Civilization:
Fight Islamofascism
Next Stop: Iran
Notes of protest can be set to [email protected] . Squeaking the wheel in this thread probably won't do much good.
I find the location and presentation of the ads quite distracting. They're not simply at the end of a thread or section of messages. They show up smack dab in the middle. Really ticks me off.
There are already ads on the home page of FWW.com Far as I'm concern, forums are no place for them. There has to be a sanctuary somewhere and this has always been the place.
Matt,
I really think that this forum could do away with those stupid ads from google. Which one of the rocket scientists at Taunton thought this one up?
Greg
Edited 6/27/2007 12:27 pm ET by GW52
Paul, I like the fact that the UK is not ignored in some of the ads. Oxfordshire Movers and Timber Frame Structures of England are there. I can't see too many of you guys, the American majority of users that is, taking up their services. Still, it's nice to see that we UK based freeloaders are remembered by the people that run this free to all site.
Personally, I find it very easy to blast past those titchy, barely noticeable sales pitches. I don't understand the hostility that other freeloaders, er, uhm, I mean other valuable contributors to woodworking wisdom feel towards such mild advertising.
And the last I heard Taunton was a publishing business and not a charity. Someone's paying for all this access to information exchange and banter, and it certainly isn't me. So a bit of low profile advertising shouldn't really hurt anyone--- should it? Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 6/27/2007 3:00 pm by SgianDubh
I am a forum junkie. I love the ability to get advice and insight from others. One of the other forums I get on is a boating forum. It has NO advertisments at all. Each year, the people who use it chip in their own $$ to keep things up and running and the guy who runs it does so for free. Absent that, the sponsoring company has to pay for it somehow.
I understand the necessity of advertising and am not criticizing Taunton. Knots is a very informative and constructive place for woodworkers to gather. I am kind of slow to change so when I saw those new ads I just reacted. They could be worse, I suppose. If they start crawling and moving then it will be a first class distraction. But, even then, I'll continue to visit.......... and learn.
Paul
Wow. 92 posts on this one. The ads don't bother me. It's as easy to mouse-scroll down past them as it is to mouse-scroll past any thread on this forum that wanders off onto unrelated tangents....which as this thread shows isn't an unusual occurrence.
I think this forum and the website are a wealth of information...if I have to scroll past some ads so be it. Taunton's people obviously put in some thought and effort in setting this website up and maintain it well.
I read all 92 posts. Some of the feeling I'm getting is the same feeling I got when that whole "win a workshop full of tools" essay contest blew up. Sort of like an attitude of "this site is OURS and it should be run the way WE want it to run". Ah well. Seems a tad unrealistic and arrogant to me, and dismisses how much freedom we do have here in this forum.
A few ads? If it helps Taunton, Let Taunton have their ads. Just ignore 'em.
charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
I use the Adblock and NoScript additions available for Firefox and don't have the "problem".
Some of the things I miss with FireFox is that I can't change the font, i.e. Bold, Italic, and underline etc.
Picky old fart here.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/3/2007 9:44 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
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