Hi Everyone,
Thought I would add another facet of learning to my woodworking. Sooo,
Trying to veneer the front of a curved apron. Using homemade thick veneer (116) , This is my first time around the block with hot hide glue, so I’m expecting somewhat of a learning curve. Prepared the hide glue , yup 140 degrees, right ratio, ( as far as everything I can find out) (1 part glue two parts water) . Sized the front the other day, should be all set. Lay down the glue on the apron, some on the veneer, “hammer” it down, squeegee it out nice and, it pops up again, and again , and againand , well you get the picture. ( I have to laugh myself !)
anyway, resorted to clamping it down with a caul I had made in anticipation of just this happening. Now, I dont know if I was expecting too much, the veneer is pretty thick as far as veneer goes,would those who have more experience, expect to be able to lay it down in one go without resorting to clamps? Just how sticky is hide glue supposed to be?
Would appreciate any insight on this.
Thanx in advance Eric
Replies
When the glue squeezes out, does it quickly turn into jello-ish brown snot-like gunk (sorry for the technical terms)? If it does, you are doing it right.
I suspect the thicker veneer is having a problem with bend back. If the apron is curved a lot, this could be the problem, and clamping it would be the way to solve it.
Even when venerring flat surfaces, I sometimes get an edge popping up a little (probably from the veneer expeanding). I just "hammer" it back down after putting a little dab of glue behind it. Then blue tape or a clamp to hold the sucker in place.
How have you moistened the face (outside) of the veneer? In traditional hammer veneering the face is also glued but this is messy. You can probably just dampen with water. I've just experimented with this, not done it a lot, so can't give a definate solution. Rob Millard will probably be around sometime. He's the real expert for this.
Eric,
There is really no need to apply glue to the veneer, as only the substrate should get the glue. Also, as Steve noted above you need to dampen the face of the veneer to counteract its wanting to curl from the moisture in the glue.
I have done very little work with 1/16"veneer and one project with home made veneers. I suspect that shop made veneer would be more stiff, than factory veneer due to the pealing like action of the cutting knife fracturing the veneer. You can see this in factory veneer where the veneer bends more easily on one side than the other. Of course this is only a consideration if the bend in your apron goes with the grain of the veneer.
If the bend is with the length of the veneer, and is not too sharp, it should go down pretty easily.
I think your glue may be too thin. I like a little thicker glue for curved work. You may also want to try just letting the problem area sit for about a half hour and then re-heat and try again. This almost always works with these problem areas.
I've never been able to veneer anything but the smallest of panels in one shot. I always have to re-heat the glue with an iron, and go over problem areas again ( and again and again). I have also had to resort to a few clamps here and there to get things to stay down. On the attached photo of a card table, the side apron, has a reverse curve as it meets the front leg, and I had to use a small block of wood and a spring clamp to keep it from lifting. Warmed sand bags were the traditional way of doing this.
Hide glue is very sticky. When building up patterns or laying down crossbanded inlays, my hands get covered in glue, and no amount of shaking will release small scraps of veneer that stick to my fingers.
Rob Millard
Thanx to everyone,
Just layed down the last piece, I sprayed it with abit of water, and only applied glue to the substrate. this did seem to help, the glue felt like it grabbed the veneer a bit better, I still had to clamp it down with a caul. I expect that the spring in the wood is just to much to ask of the glue, The grain is running horizontally on the apron. I think I like this type of glue though, just for kicks , I tried a rubbed joint, like on a corner block ,and was surprised at how quick it grabs. Can't wait to try it on regular veneer to see how that goes.
thanx again Eric
I have a love/hate relationship with hammer veneering. I just veneered two large (16x40") mahogany panels on a restoration project. Hide glue is quite tricky when applied over a large area. The first panel went on nicely, laying-down smooth. I watched it for bubbles and creases for about 10 minutes, then went to lunch. BIG MISTAKE. I should have kept "hammering" it. It looked like a longshoreman's face when I came back. After several heating/smoothing sessions, I finally got it to lay flat. I'll just say, I had a few hours to contemplate this one. I have concluded that with large panels (oh, over 8" wide?) the moisture content in the glue and hammer lube is enough to saturate and expand the veneer about 1/4". Then, when the glue is still in the "snot" phase, the veneer will creep and scrunch up. Very disheartening. On the second panel, I wisely stayed with it until the squeeze-out hardened. Needless to say, it still wrinkled a little. Just too big I guess... -J. Conrad
I love hammer veneering, it is my favorite aspect of woodworking.
From reading your post, I think you may need to size the substrate. If you did size the substrate, then the glue may have been too thin. Also, as I read your post, you used glue on the surface to lube the hammer. While this works, it causes more problems than it is worth. Lightly spraying the surface with water will control the curling without all the mess of the glue on the surface.
Hammer veneering is adaptable to any size surface. With wider pieces, brush the glue on the substrate, let it gel for a minute or so, until the surface isn't sticky ( well at least not very sticky). Then lay the veneer on, mist it, and use the iron to re-heat just a strip down the center of the sheet; get this section to stick. Then work your way to the edges, in the same manner.
I have wondered how the veneer can get so wet, and not later shrink, tearing itself apart, but it doesn't.
Rob Millard
Rob,
What do you use to size the substrate? Is the IRON you refer to a conventional clothing iron?
TIA,
Don
I use thin hot hide glue, brushed on the day before hammer veneering, to size the substrate.
The iron, is a clothes iron.
For more information on the whole hammer veneering process, see the link below.
http://home.woh.rr.com/federalfurniture/
Rob Millard
http://www.qualityvak.com/vsi.html
Rob,
Have you ever tried this softner. I sure sounds like low hassle compared to hide glue softening.
I sure liked your website. Very informative.
I bought a commercial veneer softener, but I never used it. The one I had was some kind of emulsion ( a sort of white liquid), but I'm pretty sure it isn't the one in the link, as I can see how it would have been flammable.
Thanks for the comment on the website. I'm glad you like it.
Rob Millard
Wow! Beautiful work!
My first note on this board ...... lots of good info here. Hammer Veneering huh? Congtatulations! I'm new to it myself and I've read plenty of articles and there seems to be no exact science with it. I've read "mix by weight" for an exact blend then others say "add just enough water to cover the glue granules, heat, then add water to get a steady run of glue off your brush. Other considerations: Add a tiny bit of vinegar to the mixing (distilled) water to help with initial tack. Use thicker consistancy for veneering and thinner for assembly work. Use a hair dryer to heat everything (including tools) to help with initial glue spreading and application. Spray a glycerince & (distilled) water (1 glycerine x 10 water - I think)ratio mix on the vineer to soften it first (this softening affect will only last for 24 hours so you will need to glue it up during that time.) I too cut my own veneer and I don't believe that should be a problem. Heck, very thin veneers are a recent thing, right? Again, I'm new at it and have a lot to learn but I think it would be best to avoid getting the veneer too wet because that could lead to cracks or maybe even seperation. Initial tack has got to be the secret. At any rate, you'll want to apply enough glue at first. Don't skimp, hide glue shrinks as evaporation happens and that will tighten things up.
Good luck ...... post more if you find something that helps. I'd like to know myself.
For thick veneer you need a veneer hammer with a heat sink and keep the hammer very warm. Hot to your skin. Heat sink hammers have considerable mass just behind the burnishing blade. I use a slow cooker to heat 140 degree water for both a jar of hide glue and the hammer.
Ah, now that's making sense! Where can I find one of those? Can you describe the heat sink hammer further?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&cat=1,53193&p=49945
This one retains heat very well.
go to google,type warm veneer hammer,read results.
Very good! Thanks for the help! "Warm Veneer Hammer" brought up good results. Don't know why I didn't think of that. Not a cheap hammer at Lee Valley but the quality is there. All of this is with regard to thick veneer. The original question was for 1/16 and heavier. RMillard makes a good point when gluing thinner veneers, however, I just spent my evening "popping" off thick veneer because it didn't bond to the substrate and I could see the brush marks from the original spreading. It only held in a few small places. My shop is cold (68-70 deg. Mich./basement) and the "initial tack" has to be warm to get the bond going, so for my purpose, I think I should try the warm approach .... it will cool fast, honest! :o) Good discussion, I've learned a lot. Thanks to everybody for the help.
I can't see the advantage of having the hammer warm. It would only serve to liquify the glue as it passed over the veneer. This would seem to be like a dog chasing his tail, you'd never get anywhere. The glue must cool before it will ever hold.
If a warm tool were the answer, then I could just use the iron, to press the veneer down, but I know that won't work.
Rob Millard
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