Perhaps you to are tired of Traditional plans such as Colonial, Shaker and Simple case work.
My wife is telling me I do nice work – I just finished a cherry pipe holder (or candle holder) inspired from the 1700’s but we live in the 21th century!
I know you will beat up on me on this, but we need a bunch of threads on new ideas, not based on Stickley, or fuming, not Green and Green – if you want to go back, perhaps Mackintosh; but only to replace Adirondack! And that is the 1800’s Really it is great to see this stuff in the Smithsonian……………but I want new ideas!
Fine woodworking doesn’t go there but the Fine Woodworking Internet Crowd has a lot more gravitos.
Any comments? I am wilting in the 1700’s and would like to start building stuff for the current century! Are you in the same situation?
Jim
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Replies
Jim,
Go to Steve Schmeck's website:
http://www.manytracks.com/Art/BowlsBySteve.htm
and look at his stuff. It is far out. Not traditional. Very creative.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel;
Man that web site left me cold...........literally!
We are all buying a bunch of high end tools to do that?
Huba-Huba
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim,
Like you, I am continually searching for woodworking projects that interest me and challenge me and that are different than things that I have done in the past -- not necessarily different than other people have done in the past. I do a lot of looking around for interesting ideas. I find that Knots and FWW are good places for me to look.You asked the most challenging question that I have ever seen on Knots. I am not a modern guy when it comes to woodworking styles. I am at best, an eclectic. Maybe I have the woodworker's version of attention deficit syndrome. I am constantly looking for different things. Here are some which have piqued my interest:Patrick Edwards - The most beautiful two pieces of furniture that have ever been created by anyone in the history of the universe. I have attached a photo of them. Why not try to make something which surpasses Patrick's best? That would be a challenge that is worthy of you. Here is one that is pretty far out. Scotty Foster is a friend of mine. She is the U.S.'s leading practitioner of Bauernmalerei - an ancient German style of folk painting. I have been studying it for a few years. In my list of "things to do", one is to make a German schrank and paint it in the style of Bauernmalerei. I have attached a photo of one of her schranks. Schranks are wonderous works of German engineering. They are completely disassemblable, and they are joined with removable sliding dovetails. I would be happy to send you my drawings of how to do that if you decide to take up this challenge. Indeed, if you do decide to make a Bauernmalerei Schrank, I will challenge you to a duel. Each of us will post a photo of what we did and let the Knotheads vote on which they like best. For the greatest challenge in carvingn, try to do something in the style of Grinling Gibbons. Look up his name on Google. Look at photos of his work in books like Paul Hasluck's. When I see his stuff, I believe I have seen the work of the greatest woodcarver who has ever lived. Indeed, a dinner with Gibbons and with Patrick Edwards would be a delight. When I look at the work that I have seen on Knots, I am absolutely blown over by the Federal Period furniture of Rob Millard. Try to do something that could compete with Rob's work. I'd like to be able to do that. Not much chance.Philip Marcou's planes - Try to out-do Philip. That is a challenge!Or for the greatest challenge of all, look at the attached photo of the dollhouse that I made for my daughter. It was all made from scratch. It took seven years of part time work to make the five story structure, and much longer to make the furniture. Even the fridge has a door which has a magnetic catch. Try getting into the field of miniatures. Attached is a photo of the dollhouse.I am sorry that I cannot come up with suggestions for you which are "modern". I have listed for you things and people who have inspired me. It is obviously not a complete list. I hope that these or someone else's response to you gives you a idea which tweaks your imagination. PLEASE, after a while, go through all of the specific suggestions that were made to you, and comment on them. That will give me insight into where your head is at and where you want to go. Meanwhile, if I come up with others, I will let you know. Thanks for asking such a thought provoking question.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel;
Your passion for woodworking and the way you talk about it is like a form of bliss.....that is what I hope to find. Your doll house is fabulous, and the picture of the inlay was sublime.
You post is very inspirational, thank you for your kind reply.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
two,
You speak heresy, man. Take care, lest you be condemned as a warlock, and dunked in a vat of boiling hide glue.
The beauty of being trapped in the 1700's is that it frees me from having to think for myself. Like trying new things. Like biscuits.
Ray
Edit: ps Right off the top of my head, it is a REAL challenge to design wooden things for the 21st century. Pipe and candle holders do hark back to preindustrial times, much less pre IT times. But-- who would want a wooden cellphone holder, flash drive, or ipod holder? Could it be that wood is too passe for the 21st century? Is wood itself, too preindustrial for the 21st century? Is that why wooden furniture of the late 19th and 20th century falls flat on its face? Doesn't the concept of a wooden computer desk, or chair, seem, well, archaic? Might as well build a wooden space station. Plastic, and titanium, that's where it's at. Fine Plasticworking, the webmag of today!
Edited 12/19/2007 11:27 pm ET by joinerswork
Your Beautiful Ray,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
sorry;
I didn't read your cc when I replied to your email. I don't agree with you on woodworking being out of style for the 21st century. I do believe the wood workers demand very little for contemporary design from the information providers.
We do demand Hi teck tools but not hight teck ideas. go figure. I hate all the inspiration is on tools and not on product.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Twotowers,Recently I've been introduced to a concept designers use to do their work; Design through Interpretation". As I understand it, it's intended to bring the viewer closer to the experience. Most of our museums have adopted this approach...so you get to feel like an astronaut as you go through the museum, etc.For furniture I think the same is true. A Sheraton, Shaker or Green& Green piece of furniture is not really distinguished by its functionality...but how it interprets the world around it.(eg. the character of the maker) And then there's Maloof..it screams southern comfort...with a focus on the user. I'm sure there are others and probably other approaches.
Don't forget Nakashima
Stef
fatboy...he was in my mind ..but not the spelling of his name..lol
BG;
But what about color, texture, textiles, metals.....I am digressing into a typical BAUHOUSE (sorry on the spelling- Microsoft doesn't know how to spell it either) rant. or more simply, pigments, fasteners, or contemporary designs. Just bought a flat screen TY so am now interested in new furniture to replace the home entertainment center.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Here's a direct quote from the founder and CEO of the "Old Sarge School of Design"....
"Decide the function criteria of the piece to be built. Relate that criteria to the a piece you have seen in the past that serves the same basic function such as table.. chair.. chest.. bed.. etc.. You have now conquered the hard part. Do not waste time trying to re-name it.
Ya know what looks and features from viewing past and present designs to form a mental picture of how you conceive what it should look like. So... the design has been completed.
The only thing left to do at this point is put a pile of lumber in front of you and get to work. Take a little off of the stock here.. add a little to the stock there and when it looks like your pre-determined mental picture.. You're done with the mechanical phase.
At this point... just sling some finish on it and let it cure and have a Merry Xmas.
BTW.. you may proceed to your next design".....
Sarge.. :>)
With all due respect to the founder and CEO....... mental pictures are problematic. Being mental and not tangible, they have an uncanny ability to achieve a level of perfection that may or may not be actually doable. They are sort of like chasing smoke...... it's drifty and ever changing. Successful creation of a new design demands that one indeed take lumber to hand and cut and add. But then one must pause for reflection.... take a good look at what is really there. Chances are it won't exactly match that original mental picture. And if the maker thinks it does.... well, I'd venture to say the mental picture might have been altered a bit. And that's OK, but it doesn't acknowledge the change. Art and design students make work and put it before their peers and instructors for review. Those others are obviously viewers that have had no peek beforehand at the mental picture. So they are unbiased. What is difficult for the student, is to learn that when one makes original work, they are alternately viewer and creator. The creator is working from the original idea (mental picture) but must rely on the viewer for honest feedback. The student must juggle all this information and is then constantly altering the idea, viewing/judging, and so on.None of the above is exclusive to making contemporary works of art or furniture. It is, however, something that I, as a maker of original work, try to always keep in mind. Never has any, of what I think of as my best work, matched my original picture of it (mental or otherwise).
Morning sapwood...
My post was made with a bit of holiday humor in mind and not intended to be serious. My apologies to any that mis-interpreted the intention..
BTW.. My designs are done on a note-pad and with a pencil as the eraser gets used a lot. I have physically and through image seen the work of others that are current and have been passed down for centuries. So... my design may in-corporate functions of one of those or several together with my own ideas and modifications.
Then I get a pile of lumber and get to work.... the rest of the story has already been posted in as much detail as I have time for. :>)
I do solid wood and no ply's. I do all joints.. no screws or biscuits. A recent bed where screws were used on attach hardware would be a rare exception. I don't require a Saw-stop or Festool to do what I do as I don't personally find them necessary as some might.
I have no clue what style my design should be called. Arts & Crafts.. country.. southern.. Appalachian or just make up something if you wish. I seek from the intended of the piece for them and them alone, to call it well.... "Pretty and I love it". All else has no real value to me personally.
Regards and Merry Xmas to all...
Sarge..
Edited 12/20/2007 12:08 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi;
Wow, I wish you wrote or rather designed stuff for FWW.
You really need to give examples or show some pictures!
Best;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hay Sarge;
Merry Christmas to you and thanks for the reply.
I get frustrated by the repetition on web sites & magazines because everything looks the same, as in everything seems to inspired from 3 or 4 sources. People are paying fortunes for tools and they are building the same thing, no I am not referring to two-by-four furniture-in-a-day.
There has to be more inspiration out there and it doesn't bleed through to woodworkers. As an example I think the turners get dealt the worst hand as the techniques has to yield more stuff than pens, bottle stoppers and tops.........I know, I crossed the line!
Best wishes over the holidays.
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim,
Doing new design is hard - at least it's hard to design something that isn't ugly, silly or plain useless. However, there are folk that manage to design and make some fantastic and genuinely original furniture that is not a sculpture-joke.
I have something of your dilemma, although I am still happily immersed in Arts&Crafts. But there is a little voice suggesting that something more original should at least be considered. Unfortunately, I am not the original type.
Perhaps some inspiration in the form of pictures? There are Design Books 6 & 7 from Taunton - full of whimsey and daft things but also some inspired design. Betty Norbury has published a book or four portraying modern furniture designers, mostly from Britain.
All that stuff might stimulate ideas, although when I look at the articles I just end up thinking, "I'll copy that". Doh!
Lataxe
Hi;
I guess my problem is I don't like Stickley in particular, or oak or fuming and I have tired on Shaker. I love Art Nouveau and in contemporary I find the designs coming out of the shop of Thomas Moser exceptional - in fact stunning. I don't understand why some of the design of Moser are so off limits with the magazines.
Best;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
How about this: http://www.thomasmoser.com/product.detail.php?category_id=&family_id=23&product_id=372 ?
Saw it the other night on This Old House where they had just finished a modern house in Cambridge, MA.
I'm not a big fan of modern but Mr. Moser has some very nice pieces on his WEBsite.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/21/2007 8:30 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,You can tour the Moser shop in Auburn (ME). Fridays at 1. Reservations required. Tours are free.It's Well worth the time and effort...Green Design in Portland (ME) also offers tours.
That The Vita Chair and Ottoman represent a place for me to sit at a die in comfort!
Will,
We'll have none of that talk around here. You are a youthful Modern Master and what you need to do is build one of them Vita chairs, but you must not copy it.
Now get out there in your woodshop and get to work! And get that silly notion about dieing out of your head RIGHT NOW! If you don't I'll have to come out there and cold konk you. Then we'll have to sit around and sip, smoke and tell all sorts of woodworking lies!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/21/2007 10:07 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
but you must not copy it.I never do that.. I'll tell the Judge I got a idea lookin at it!
Bob;
Thomas Moser is my current inspiration. I think he is in a league by himself. I looked at the web site you listed and the photos are very poor and hides the real genius of his work. His Aria Chair is sublime -but again you can't tell by the pictures.I bought his recent book up in Maine and the salesperson, knowing I was a woodworker, put me on the mailing list. The catalog and brochures show what appear to me, brand new approaches in jointery.I noted on the sight that you could request a brochure. You should get one.
Best;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I am still happily immersed in Arts&Crafts. But there is a little voice suggesting that something more original should at least be considered. Unfortunately, I am not the original type. ??Sir you are! Just don't know it yet!
WillGeorge-
You and I share that same little voice!I am not that creative either otherwise I would be doing rather than asking questions. There are some really great suggestions coming in. I don't know if you saw the post where the author said - get a sketch book and sketch everything! If you think about it that is a heck of a way to open the mind to new ideas.
Best
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hi Jim,
This discussion is a real eye opener for me and thanks for putting it up here.
that is a heck of a way to open the mind to new ideas
Wanna another one? Get some carving chisels, grab a piece of wood and have at it. By a piece of wood I would suggest a component to a complete piece.
But watch out, it gets addictive once you start!
I've seen some of Mosers work both alive and in articles. FWW did an article on him and his work a while back as well. When the weather gets better, in the spring, I have a mini tour of Maine planned to include LN, Moser and several woodworkers in the state. I'm not that far from there and there are some great folks over yonder.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob;
Thomas Moser's sons have gotten involved in design in the past few years.
They have gone beyond the early designs of the father. They also now have robotic 3d programmable routers that have really stretched the envelope of what is possible in solid cherry. I think you would enjoy seeing the new product.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim,
On the TOH program they went to the Moser facility and it showed how the Vita chair was constructed. I'm a stoggy ol' fart that is very much into the QA & Chippendale style and don't, for the most part, like modern styles but that chair really caught my eye.
At some point I would very much like to make one similar. I really like the way it flows together from one part to the next.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Take a look at Woodwork magazine which always has a gallery of the new (and sometimes strange). Also Furniture & Cabinetmaking magazine (British publication). Both will give you lots of ideas for the 21st century.
Pre-industrial woodworkers worked in an economic environment where the market demanded super high quality, and where an extreme variety of quality existed. Subsequently, consumers were choosy- though what they were choosy about is debatable. These woodworkers worked in small shops, with relatively inexpensive tools, relying on skills instead of "smart" tools. Their furniture featured fairly difficult all wood joinery.
Industrial period woodworkers sought market share by mass producing items for mass consumption. Quality suffered as unskilled immigrant labor was used. What was formerly carved was now stamped. What was mortise and tenoned would be dowelled. As the industrial period progressed, plywood replaced solid wood, and screws replaced wood connections. Focus was on making items cheaper to manufacture.
We're currently in what I call the post industrial period. Post industrial furniture is designed for ease of shipping from "second world" countries to "first world" North America and Europe. Wood is used only as trim. Carcasses are made of wood fiber reinforced materials. Connections are nearly all mechanical in nature. The focus of post industrial furniture is manufacturing essentially disposable furniture at irresistibly low prices.
Given this, I think its fairly clear why modern woodworkers have focused on traditional forms. The styles (unbelievably) remain popular with the buying public, and the aims of pre-industrial furnituremakers are more closely aligned with contemnporary hobby woodworkers' or small shop pros'. So I think the popularity and challenge of traditional furniture is what keeps it in vogue with furniture makers.
But I'm compelled by your question. I think designing and building post industrial furniture would be great. I could imagine the use of new materials, plastics, aluminum alloys, and CNC machines could be fun. I also like the user configurable nature of most post industrial furniture. The skill of sawing dovetails would be supplanted with CNC machining, but both offer their own set of challenges, skills, etc. I think it might be fun making furniture out of Corian. Clearly that's what woodworking in this century is going to be about.
I think when people talk about non-traditional, they often just rearrange very traditional forms. I don't think an inlay of bloodwood, a naturalistic edge, or an asymmetric curve makes something modern or non-traditional. Structurally, these things are often very traditional. I'd like to see cables as leg supports. I think it would be fun to do truly non traditional furniture. I encourage you to try it. It might be worth studying aircraft structure as an inspiration for low mass structures.
Adam
Edited 12/20/2007 8:58 am ET by AdamCherubini
Adam;
Great response. You had me rethinking .......my position, that is until you shot back with your thoughts on the future concepts. I would love to see threads from engineers from different industries putting in their thoughts on the possibilities of furniture design.
Thanks;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
You wrote: "I would love to see threads from engineers from different industries putting in their thoughts on the possibilities of furniture design."Thing is, engineers tend to be a pretty conservative bunch. You have a group of people who are trained to see the world according to quantifiable metrics, not subjective opinions, and who by and large spend their days working on the cutting edge of technology. It's exciting, sterile, modern, precise, and cold.I come to woodworking precisely to take a break from that. I want warmth, tradition, and artistry. I don't want to integrate electronics or plastics or metals with my poor creations. I want to make things the way they were done in a simpler time. I want things in my house (whether I make them or buy them) that are comfortable, a break with the hectic pace of a life in science.If I'm not alone, it goes some ways towards explaining why so much of woodworking strives for tradition. Even when Norm builds a kitchen with MDF and a bisquit joiner, he tries to make it look like distressed-hardwood in a French country kitchen.
Edited 12/20/2007 11:34 pm ET by perizoqui
Hi Perizoqui;
you wrote : "I come to woodworking precisely to take a break from that. I want warmth, tradition, and artistry. I don't want to integrate electronics or plastics or metals...I want things in my house (whether I make them or buy them) that are comfortable, a break with the hectic pace of a life in science".I totally understand your comment, heald the same point of view for perhaps 30 years. It was the endless repetition of the projects,plans,forms and books became endlessy repetative. The fatique you suffer in your career I now suffer from in the hobby/craft.Haven said all the above, have you ever encountered an idea in your area of expertise that you thought you could integrate into woodworking and still hold true to you desire of making items that meet your desired level of "warmth, tradition, and artistry".
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
"It was the endless repetition of the projects,plans,forms and books became endlessy repetative."
Plans to me are useful only insofar as they yield technical and structural information that I can then use in my own ways. I would hate building literally from plans all the time. Too much of the fun of hobbiest woodworking for me comes from following my own nose as opposed to a "recipe."
Making good art is hard. Making good and original art is even harder.
It is much easier to make slight variations or echos of successful pieces from the past. And with the cost of wood and the time it takes to make a fine furniture project, it is small wonder most folks choose the pursuit of the tried and true.
With a medium and forms, like wood and woodwork, that have been around for so long, it is very hard to come up with anything completely new. But painting and music and theater and most art forms face the same issue, and yet even working from the same colors and notes and plotlines as their predessors, every generation can make pieces that are their own. I think this is because of the subtleties of a exponential variations that each individual artist brings to a work with their unique "hand" and their unique set of choices made during the creative process culminatingin that particular piece of work.
Risk it. Follow your muse.
Samson,
Would you also agree that the needs of folks today vary greatly with the needs of folks back in the time some of these original pieces were constructed? And these needs have/do have an impact on the design of furniture today?
As an example, both my wife and I like 18c. furniture, specifically Queen Qnne and Chippendale. My first QA piece, which is about ½ done, is what we call an adaptation of a traditional style that fits a current nedd for us. For lack of a better way of describing it the piece is what I call a low sideboard or a stretched out lowboy, to house our Audio Video components.
It has the traditional cabriole legs, cyma curved apron and ends, etc. but its shape is nothing like any original QA piece. The intent is to have an entertainment center that doesn't look like one.
The flat panel display will be housed in a QA style picture frame, whatever that is. I'm currently wrestling with the design. A laptop will be used to display images and DVDs on the flat panel display when not in TV mode.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Would you also agree that the needs of folks today vary greatly with the needs of folks back in the time some of these original pieces were constructed? And these needs have/do have an impact on the design of furniture today?
Sure, we have stuff to put in our "boxes" that they never could have even imagined and they had things to put in theirs that most folks would never guess - I'm thinking of stuff like sugar chests. A good furniture designer considers the use. A differently proportioned main cabinet with QA traits may look significantly "new," but it may not. As usual, it comes down to the individual piece.
BOB... I never figgured you for a Queen Ann type.. Sorry.. Nothing wrong with that! I just chuckled a bit on it.. I have no idea why.How about a (modified?) Queen Anne Armoire as shown in the post.. Not that you would buy a Monkey Ward product.. But maybe give you something else to consider in you desigh thoughts.http://www.wards.com/wards/prod_display1.asp?product=49499Not sure how it would fit a 60" Plasma but maybe the components.. Now how to hide all them cables in QA style...
Will,
Take that Monkey Ward thing and stretch it about 9" wider, chop about 18" off the top and you'd be close to what I'm makin. Totally different door styling, more like QA and the apron is mor of a cyma curve shape.
As for the wires, well I just started carvin so I'll just wrap the wires around the legs and they'll look like acanthus vines right?! As to the QA style, I like them curvaceous legs on Queens don't you?
The 47" flat panel display will be in a picture frame mounted on the wall so the case doesn't need to be so big. That was our biggest objection to most EC's. They're basically gompin thangs that dominate the whole room!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/27/2007 3:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
And I thought you posted something about basterdizing! LOL.. Good one!
I like them curvaceous legs on Queens don't you?If it is a woman... I LIKE IT!picture frame mounted on the wall .. DO they make that glass that turns black and transparent in QA style? Now you also need to make a QA remote if they do!
Monkey Ward! I thought "how old is he to remember that company?" Your profile says "OLD", so that answered that. Was that you in the picture carrying Sewell Avery out of his office in a chair? You are in Chicago.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Monkey Ward! I remember the old warehouse on the river.. They had stock pickers on roller skates (huge building) running around to pick orders..
Edited 12/28/2007 6:57 pm by WillGeorge
Jim,
Like Adam, I am captivated by your question. I can't get it out of my head. All my suggestions so far have been traditional, and you really want non traditional. I don't believe I can find a good answer to your issue, but that won't stop me from trying.
Who is the greatest living woodworker, aside from Lataxe?
It would have to be Kintaro Yazawa. No one that I have come across has been more of an innovator than he is, and his innovations in joinery are WONDERFUL. Go see them at:
http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/english.html
Then there is a rocking chair maker by the name of Hal Taylor. I guess you could say that he copied Sam Maloof, but he has taken it a few steps farther. He has a rocking chair for an adult and two children, so the three of them can rock while the kids are being read to. His website is:
http://www.haltaylor.com/
I love the work of Yazawa and of Taylor. This next guy is not as much to my liking, but he definitely is unconventional. Try the website of Jerry Jonesboro at
http://woodworkingartistviews.blogspot.com/
If I had written this together with my other two replies to you, I would have put Kintaro Yazawa at the top of the list. Patrick Edwards still has, to my mind, the most beautiful pieces of furniture ever built, but he is much more traditional than Yazawa.
I hope these ideas help you in your search for your muse. They have helped me.
Good luck.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
If I wanted to make "modern 21st Csntury" stuff I would. To me, most of it looks like a little kid couldn't make up his/her mind on what they wanted it to look like. Perhaps designing such furniture is a challenge as far as doing it "right." I'd much rather stick with the Arts & Crafts styles of a century ago and work off them. That's a style I like to look at so that's the style that I make.
Mel,
You ask, "Who is the greatest living woodworker, aside from Lataxe"?
You forget the qualifier: "Who is the greatest living woodworker in Lataxe' street, aside from Lataxe"?
The answer is: that bloke 5 doors-up, who whittles spoons with funny faces on them with his penknife. There is also Mr Forrester, across the road, who spent 40 years in Waring & Gillow........
Lataxe, not the greatest anything.
PS Vernor Vinge opines, in his exciting novels, that future furniture will consist only of the most basic utilitarian chipboard panels and that we will all use our wearable computers (inclusive of contact lenses) to impose whatever style we wish upon the base physical reality. One minute you could be sitting on a scuttle-leg with gold bits on the legs then the next minute you are on a Thonet.
Of course, one has to ignore the sharp edge of the chipboard digging into the quadricep.
Anyway, we-all had better throw away them silly hand tools and get a good biscuit jointer, along with the fastest Intel processor we can find.......
You ask, "Who is the greatest living woodworker, aside from Lataxe"?I have no idea but I'd be more than happy to be the last one the list!
Mel;
Loved the web site of Kintaro Yazawa his dove tails are second to none.I have bookmarked his site based on your recommendation.
I am so delighted that my post got you thinking, and I appreciate your kind response. For some reason I seem to be interested in finding new materials to incorporate with wood that can still be worked with traditional machines.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim,
I am glad that you enjoyed my responses, and that you found Yazawa's joinery to be fascinating. Yazawa seems to me to embody what you are after. He is not mired down by the past. He is free of the past. He feels the necessity to innovate, and yet he integrates his innovations into what he considers the best traditions of the past and present. His inventiveness astounds me. I wrote to him once. He wrote back to me. That was quite nice. I didn't expect it.I have read your responses to the people who responded to you. I believe that you feel that you have profited from the exchange. You seem to have modified your position from wanting to break from tradition, to wanting to add new features to traditional ones. That would be my philosophy as well. Thank you very much for a great conversation, and for your nice words. Whatever you do in the future, don't worry about it too much. People who dive in with gusto after thinking things through seem to me to be the real achievers. Grab for the gusto.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks Mel,
I really enjoyed the thread and got some great ideas!
Best;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/index.php
http://studiofurniture.com/seating/seating.html
http://www.iserv.net/~plucas/descon.htm
http://www.bolafurniture.com/html_version/bola2/about/index.html
I took the above from the David Savage site at http://www.finefurnituremaker.com.
All of these represent "modern" forms with occasionally some possibility of seeing the derivation of those forms.
Many are familiar as a Shaker or Green & Green table are both similar and different. The traditional methods of joining and fixing still apply unless you wish to try out something more outlandish.
Many of the designs could be reproduced but with ones own interpretation/design added and still have that modern ethos of simplicity, clarity of design and purity of line.
regards
Alan
I'd like to throw an idea your way. I was trained as a furniture designer and so I am always in that mode, but here are a couple thoughts that might just help you with your concern.
First, go out an buy a nice spiral bound sketch pad 9x12 or 11x14 in size, I like the ones that have a heavy black cardboard cover front and back.
Second, no matter how poorly you think you draw, start drawing. Draw your hands, your coffee cup the kitchen table doesn't matter. Draw scale drawings of things you see and like, do quick and simple sketches. Do it everyday everyday everyday and cover both sides of each page! When the first is full buy another and another and another. Over time you will find your ability to visualize AND put those vision on paper improves and you will reach a point where what you visualize and what you can put on paper are one and the same. At that point you will have no design limitations and you will find an infinite supply of things to make and they will be of your design.
Design is an evolutionary process and drawing is as well. If you study the various styles of historic period furniture you will find they all are an evolution of an earlier style or are a rejection of an earlier style. Then throw in some political or religious turmoil and poof you have a new style of furniture! Just look at Federal Style or Shaker furniture as proof of this.
So I would suggest you spend time also learning about the history of the styles of furniture you like, then draw and draw and see what comes of it. You'll be surprised.
The notion someone in this thread posed that there was no need for wood today is silly, just watch how folks pet the things you make. In my book it is an odd bird that stops to caress a metal or plasitc surface, but put a nice finish on a cherry book case, table or chair and they'll stand there for an hour talking about how much they love the feel of wood.
So go out into the unknown and draw, design and study the past. You'll be rewarded and your great grandchildren will have heirlooms!
Madison!
Dear Maddy,
I am the silly person who suggested that wood is in-appropriate for modern technology. Do you remember seeing any wood in the cartoon Jetson's home? Even a tree in their yard?
The thing I left unstated, thinking that someone like Adam would say it for me, is that the appeal of wood furniture is "rooted" in its pre-industrial heritage. That a wood surface cannot be caressed thru a virtual reality glove, seen as a computer generated image.
The very notion of an organic material like wood, appeals to the senses of our un-evolved psyches, in the same way that the smell of baking bread does. No matter how "modern" the form, a wooden table harkens back to the days when our ancestors wrestled their surroundings from the natural world around them, and falls short inso far as it departs from this notion. Plastic and steel surrounding us in our living space leaves us cold for this reason, in the same way that plastic flowers in an earthenware vase do.
Ray
All,
If you want to design a piece of original furniture, how's this:
What would a chair look like, if our knees bent the other way?
Please note this is not an original idea, I heard it from a comedian probably 20 years ago.
Ray
Hey that sounds like a good design for a chicken chair. Ha
RayWood is like a woman.. Never go out of style in any form!EDIT:
in the same way that the smell of baking bread does...Now there are some descriptive word that says it all!I for one like to work without plans and in what comes to mind at the moment. Not all turn out as I wanted but I have never had anyone else complain about the outcome except me.
Edited 12/21/2007 12:19 am by WillGeorge
WG,
I love the smell of a woman.I love the smell of wood being machined.I have thought about it now. It didn't take long.
I love the smell of a woman more.
Woodworking has its limitations. One time, I was leaving one job to go to another. Everyone at the office knew of my woodworking sickness (I meant hobby). One of the presents I got at my "going away party" was a plaque with a piece of wood attached, and signed by all of women in the office. It read "A piece of ash from the girls at the office." Of course, that was a long time ago, before the era of political correctness. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Woodworking has its limitations. SO do Women.. Except all it takes is talking to her when she is upset and you say 'I understand' when she is lookin' at you?
"A piece of ash from the girls at the office." LOL.. What a compliment!By the way.. I love working with Ash!
Mel, Mel, Mel,
Must I point out the obvious? The best of all is machining wood together with your woman.
Merry Christmas
Tom
Tom,
"The best of all is machining wood together with your woman. "
Excellent idea. I will tell Mary Beth that she will be happier if she spends time in the workshop with me. You don't live far a way. If you hear a loud laughing, you know who it is.
Merry Christmas.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If you hear a loud laughing, you know who it is.And the better half pick us a carving tool and Mell goes off in the corner to hide as her laugh subsides...
Tom,
I regret that you have had to machine your woman. I like mine as she is, with her various interesting bumps, parts and appendages; which is just as well as I feel I would muck-up any woman-machining procedures and then men in blue would come.
But as a matter of interest, how do you dispose of the blood and muffle the screaming? I do have a list of annoying persons who may benefit from a cut or two with a 42 tooth ATB; or even a shaving of their flap-organs or a chop at their accusey-pointers.
Lataxe, full of minced pie.
Ray:
The very notion of an organic material like wood, appeals to the senses of our un-evolved psyches, in the same way that the smell of baking bread does. No matter how "modern" the form, a wooden table harkens back to the days when our ancestors wrestled their surroundings from the natural world around them, and falls short inso far as it departs from this notion. Plastic and steel surrounding us in our living space leaves us cold for this reason, in the same way that plastic flowers in an earthenware vase do.
Interesting position, I question however your point of wood appealing to our "un-evolved psyches". I would argue that wood allows us to utilize our developed psyches. If we were simply harkening back to wrestling surroundings from the natural world we'd all be sitting on logs at dinner time!
Our buddy Mel tells me you are an accomplished craftsman and focus on the Federal period furniture. So I've got to say if your point is that all the fancy veneer work and inlay is a harkening to a time when we wrestled our surroundings from the natural world I guess my 6 years working on a masters degree was a waste because I just don't see the connection.
Wood, as you know is a magnificent and unique engineering material, it posesses structural, visual and tactical qualities no other material I have ever worked has. The fact that it has been used forever by humans to enhance our surroundings can only reinforce that point! I think the connection we humans have with wood is more a reinforcement of our own organic makeup. If we were all plastic or metal we'd all harken to a time when we wrestled our surroundings from the lab or machine shop.
To end on a humorous note the fellow who picks up our saw dust each month has a titanium hip joint replacement. I just read your post to him and he tells me that after the surgery he found he had an irresistable craving to caress polished titanium and to play with stainless steel screws and high density plastics. Now I'm afraid to see what he's harkening back to!
Merry Christmas!
Madison
Hi Maddy,
Not strictly Federal period, I also do Q A and Chippendale. Have even gone to the pilgrim century on one end and Art Noveau the other, for inspiration.
I think you and I don't disagree too much. Perhaps some of the appeal of the fancy inlay and such, is the degree as well as the way which it has been wrestled from nature, without getting too far away from its naturalness. Same way a creme brulee is better than a twinkee. So that is why folks complain about those "plasticy" looking finishes.
Like your friend, I'll look to see whether my new stent can warm the cockles of my heart toward rare alloys in furniture... I see a future for myself in extruded-metal chairs with chicken-wire upholstery!
Best wishes,
Ray
Ray:
I can send you a couple miles of tangled and rusty barbed wire! I mean why stop half way with chicken wire? Ha!
Madison
Ray,
What's this about creme broulee being better than a Twinkee?
Get real!
That's like sayin that the Three Tenors are better than the Red Smiley and the Tennessee Cut-ups.
Pure BS.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
If the three tenors = creme brulee, then Red Smiley & Tenn Cut-ups = cornbread and honey. I would say that Britney = Twinkee
My opinion only.
Ray
Nonsense.In 100 years the twinkie will still be delicious.
Some of the twinkies in convenience stores appear to be close to that age already.
Jim
peri,
But, in 100 yrs, Britney may be nearly the same % preservatives as the twinkie. Botox and silicone instead of BHT and Guar gum. Skankie in stead of twinkie.
Ray
Ray,
I have no idea what a Britney or a twinkie is. (Sounds like some kind of WWII landgirl with a skirt too short). "Coo-eee duckie, over 'ere"!! (twink, twink).
You must explain. Is it a choccie bar?
I did try American "chocolate" once. It all tasted of silage (sour milk) for some reason.
Of course, one must go to Europe for good traditional chocolate. (Are those Swissmen good at everything)? But these days there are various new chocolate-makers who do their thang in a fairtrade way. Choc is grown, processed and made into bars in the country of origin, instead of Mr Rich Bloke of Bourneville getting 99.9% of the profit).
Naturally, it is delicious albeit habit-forming.
I recommend Green & Blacks, if you can get it out there in the colonies. (I think their stuff is from Belize). Otherwise there is a fine maker of the stuff in Madagascar (can't remember the name).
The latter boast that, although forest was cleared a while ago for the choc bushes, they need forest shade for the choc to grow properly, so choc-making actually motivates them to keep what forest is left. Looks like they have taken up marketing as well as manufacture. :-)
Or it might be true and now there will be even less exotic timber for tarting-up that high-end televisual lounge, bar & rump room that y'all have over there. (I think that's what you call them).
****
Surely all right-thinking folk must give up that "candy" (see how I larn your lingo) made of the brown liquid that comes out the back of Dupont, filled with reject-polystyrene and the mud that collects in the wheel arches of sugar-plantation lorries? The ingestion of such fare is probably one major reason why modern teenagers talk gibberish and cannot sit still.
Lataxe, chocolate addict.
Lataxe, old chap,
A Britney is a starlet, a tart, perhaps most famous (notorious is the better word, I spose) for having her picture taken as she alighted from her auto sans knickers, and for driving around with her small child on her lap. A twinkie is a (very) commercially made sponge-cake, with a stuffing of sugary, marshmallow-cremey fluff. There are other similarities between the two.
Swiss chocolate is very good indeed. And I used to be exceedingly fond of a caramel candy made by a firm named Callard and Bowser. Are you familiar with this wonderful stuff?
Ray, of the sweet-tooth
Edited 12/26/2007 5:56 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray,
"And I used to be exceedingly fond of a caramel candy made by a firm named Callard and Bowser. Are you familiar with this wonderful stuff?" I am exceedingly fond of Callard and Bowser products-in particular their nougat with almonds and cherries, wrapped in rice paper in the blue long rectangular blue boxes. Their butterscotch, which you call caramel candy (;), is almost as good....I have been unable to find any here in Lands End, regrettably.
Let us ask Lataxe to send us each a consignment of Her Majesty's best Confectionary....Philip Marcou
Phillip;
It looks like even Sir Lataxe may have a hard time procuring any.
http://www.sugarboy.co.uk/acatalog/Callard_&_Bowser.html
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
philip,
You are correct, it was butterscotch. I used to like butterscotch "lifesaver" brand candy, til that blasted Brit stuff crossed my lips! Never went back. I used to save my pittance of an allowance to get that C & B! It's been years since I've seen any here in the states, too.
Confectionately yours,
Ray
Ray,
Have you ever tried Belgian chocolate? Many years ago when I was in Brussels I had my first taste. Get some for the misses every Valentines Day. I get to eat some of them too.
http://www.belgianchocolategifts.com/
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/28/2007 10:57 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, I suggest we move this pending chocolate discussion to that thread that Mel is inflating- I believe he is aiming for 5000.(:)
Anyway, I advocate Cadburys Flakey Bar chocolate logs-these are made all over the world, and I can vouch that standards are of the highest order with no variation in quality. Also the wrapper comes off easily when one is frantic.....
Edited 12/28/2007 3:18 pm by philip
phillip,
I agree we should move it over yonder. See ya there.
Also the wrapper comes off easily when one is frantic..... Is that the anticipation of the great taste?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I may have to give the Belgian chocolate a try. Our dog ate what was left of a tray of Hersheys mint flavor kisses last nite while we were out--- 8-10 pieces were on it when we left, and a trail of foil on the floor when we returned.. She says they weren't up to her usual standards, no diarrhea for us to clean up, as punishment for leaving her alone.
Ray
Ray,
I remember when I was in Brussels that the white is to kill for. If you ever venture over there be careful of the micro brewed beer. It'll knock you on your keester!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/29/2007 9:12 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Only Belgian beer I've had was Lambic; far as I'm concerned they can have it. I don't care for sour beer :-6
By the way, I always have to restrain myself from referring to an inhabitant of Belgium as a Belch.
By another way, do you know what a resident of Flanders is called? Not a Flan. The people are Flemish, but he isn't a Phlem, either.
A: Walloon
Ray
Ray,
By Jingo, sir - now I realise why we Ypeans name you Yank!
I feel you need to be taked Abroad, so that your mind is broaden'd by exposure to propah culture instead of being degraded by that kulcher you have over there on your television sets or in your sweetie and grog shops. (Of course, our clean air and splendid beer would probably not agree with your sensitive constitution; but it is worth the risk if you are returned with your parochia cured).
Lataxe, a damnable Angloon
My dear L,
" now I realise why we Ypeans name you Yank!"
Is it because I yanked your chain a bit too briskly?
I would welcome the oppourtunity to imbibe large quantities of your native grog, in its natural habitat, as it were. I enjouy the impourted variety here so well, (excepting that which has been adultourated with frouit flavours and odd varieties of yeastie cultoures) it is difficult to imagine how good it must be, taken fresh from the tap.
Samuel Smith's products are a favourite of mine, as well as Old Peculier (like seeks like, as they say)
Parochial I may be, out of necessity, but always open to new experiences, for instance, spelling in the British manour.
Ray, a parochial Yank by birth; Virginian, by the grace of God
Walloons are the Belgians who don't live in Flanders. They live in Wallonia.
-Steve
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the correction. I was relying on information provided by Rob't Benchley, whose sources may be, admittedly, suspect.
Ray
I traveled to Belgium many times.. Strange but always nice to me.. I brought some chocolates back and the US Customs did not let me bring them into the USA at the time..I got out of the line and went to the back and eate the whole BOX! I was much happier walking through the next time!I have traveled all over the world and US Customs folks have NO CLASS whatsoever!
"I brought some chocolates back and the US Customs did not let me bring them into the USA at the time.."
It used to be that liqueur-filled chocolates were illegal in the US.
Next time you're in Belgium, stop by L'Art de Praslin. The original shop is in Wavre, across the street from the Hôtel de Ville (City Hall). They now have shops in Brussels and Erpent as well. The words that one would need to use in order to describe their chocolates simply do not exist.
-Steve
Hi;
I think you need to go to the highly recognized "fine Chocklet, Cheese, and dried out breads form: it is at www somethinglikethat.fr
Best
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Lat;
I tried to respond to you - if you receive two messages from me it is because, well I screwed up!You wrote:
Don't go offering praise to me like that Jim. I could get all sweely heided and start to believe my own lies and fictions.Just because furniture is my job that doesn't necessarily make my opinion right or give it any particular credence.Sorry, your wrong on this one.
You do it for a living and I am, at best, an advanced hobbiest. I started this thread with hopes to talk to people with your experience, and hopefully, not to say anything to silly to get written off ... I don't understand why the magazines and actually many of the posts don't understand their is a future, aside from the past, in woodworking design. We are in the 21 century. There is unique demands on cabinetmakers for the 21st Century........isn't there?There is a 21st customer....It is not the 19th century customer - as all have retired.Best to you,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Lat;
Just read your bio. we are in the same age brackets me, and youbut unfortunately,we line in different parts of the orld! different countries.I would be delighted to communicate with you onyour qnd minew projects! I know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Madison;
I have a big grin on my face after reading your comment. You comments are both so simple and demanding. I think you solved my problem!It totally makes sense as does your example.
Best;
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Draw Draw Draw! I hear there's a writer's strike in hollywood and there's nothing on TV (Personally I never have thought there was much on TV to begin with) so fire up that sketch pad and mechanical pencil my friend!
Merry Christmas
Madison
That is an interesting question. Style is often related to philosophy in one's community. Arts and Crafts was a reaction to mass produced furniture. Shaker is simple and well made - themes important to the community that made furniture in this style. So, the question becomes, what current principles or values exemplify the current zeitgeist? Which would you like to see reflected in the wood work you do?
My take on this is that most people are far too divorced from the natural world. That is one of the reasons we destroy nature in unsustainable ways. I want my wood working to be sustainable, and reflect natural and organic themes. I want to use resources that require as small a carbon footprint as possible too - thus local woods rather than exotics, local businesses versus large, national wood suppliers. I want to recycle when ever possible. These are some of the issues that inform my design choices. What are yours? Answer that, you you may be well on your way to discovering your new style.
Scotty
Scotty;
You are a deep felt philosophy on woodworking. I couldn't agree with you more.
Best
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Like Mel, I thought of something else I wanted to say.
First, I reject the notion that traditional furniture is irrelevant. I'm finding more and more that I do a fair bit of business at home and need a desk like a secretary to hold my stuff. I think there's a lot of stuff like that. But that's not what I wanted to say.
I think there's a lot of room for improvement in upholstered furniture. I'd like to see it lighter weight, more comfortable and user modifiable. More like an automobile seat. I'd like to see a nice looking couch that reclines for example, has lumber support, or turns into comfortable bed, or a crib or something.
I'm a professional design engineer and we usually start a design with the need. If you are really serious about investigating new furniture forms, maybe you should start by interviewing folks about their furniture and asking about their needs.
Adam
Don,
Bless you. When the first movie came out I tried to track down plans for the bed Frodo wakes up in in Rivendel. Honestly, It was beyond my skill, as there was extrordinary carvings and marvelous and original Art Nouveau inspirations,but I tried like hell to get ahold of the maker for guidance.
Now Don, I accept your challenge without hesitation. However there should be ground rules. What do you suggest we agree to? This would cover cost of wood, square feet used, type of item made, and I would think a choice of contest names.......mine, would be Strider.
Best,
JIm
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
The vast majority of the "Shaker, Stickley, Mission" and other traditionaly inspired pieces you see here and everywhere and not accurate to the style. They are INSPIRED by the style. So they are updated versions.
Trust me, just when youthink you have a "new" modern style you will see that it has been done 100 or more years ago. Look at the asian inspired work that was so popular reciently. It is nearly identical to the lesser quality pessant designs of the era.
Look at Star Trek (the origional), Compaired to the current trend and flat screen wall mounting. Then look back to the centuries old altars of the near east and middle east. The poportions and layouts are the same as my "contemporary" living room.
By all means try to rewrite contemporary design...... but dont cast a negative light on those who see the genius in the designs that have undured the ages and continue to be "reinvinted" today. To be frank, most of the origional designs offered up by amature designers are crap that will never be seen anywhere other than their living room.
In order to develop good origional design (or interpetations of past styles) you have to divorce yourself from the building process. Quit thinking about how you can use that new router bit, shaper, drill press, Domino joiner. Quit trying to incorporate the joinery you think is "best". Dont worry about how the parts connect, weather they can be cut from 4/4 lumber, if you have the right tooling, how you will manage the part on a small saw, if it will be too hard to glue up, wheather steam bending or bent lamination will be better, if solid wood will move too much, just focus on the shapes, shadows, visual weight, ballance and lines. After you have a pleasing design you can figure out how to build it. Then just for the fun of it go back and look for the previous examples of work that look exactly like your "origional" 20th century design. LOL.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi Mike: I delight in Chippendale, Jacobian styles and the true master craftsmen of the classics. My intent was to go to the best source I know of, where a lot of talent hangs out and question, what is beyond the current thinking of the most skilled - or those that have different skill sets that are also woodworkers. Regardless what you make today - what is possible.Your suggestions I appreciate.There are a couple reasons I think wood working will change. The cost good wood is becoming prohibitively expensive, while at the same time quality is going down. Designs with any flair to them, creates a lots of scrap so the cost per project is high. This means the hobbiest/woodworker simply makes much fewer and smaller projects. The wood costs and the techniques limits him. That seems to be one good justification to explore new approaches.This also seems to spill into the woodworking for profit businesses. Some like Thomas Moser, who's shop embellishes creativity can command justifiably high prices that 90% of America can't afford. Others stick to kitchen cabinet based business. In listening to the threads it sounds like another branch of wood workers teach or make videos to round out the finances, and I think that consumer demand probably isn't enough for great craftsmen to make great livings. The underpinning problem in the above is material costs now require an infusion of creativity, and creativity should raise all boats.So to me while I am looking for new ideas for the joy of expanding my understanding of the craft, I think the majority of wood workers are in the same boat, are looking for new sensible techniques but just haven't verbalized it yet.
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
"The cost good wood is becoming prohibitively expensive, while at the same time quality is going down. Designs with any flair to them, creates a lots of scrap so the cost per project is high."
Not really true for a craft furniture designer and maker. Wood, hardware, finishes and the like are but a minor part of this type of furniture. It's the labour that's the biggest cost to make those one-off pieces. A typical project for me contains less than 10% of the cost in the wood.
On the other hand mass producers such as kitchen manufacturers might expend over 60% of their costs on materials.
Put it like this. Go into an engineering workshop and ask them to build you a one-off car from metal on the racks and in their store, along with any other bits needed from specialist suppliers that only do one-offs, but it has to be made exactly the same as a Honda Civic.
How much would it cost to reproduce a single Honda Civic if everything was made as a one-off and by hand? My first guess is perhaps £2 or £3 million.
Wood is cheap, and it grows on trees. And the genetic make-up of trees hasn't changed much in the last few thousand trees, and nor has its essential structure. Wood is still wood and it's as good as it's ever been in my opinion. It's what you do with it that matters. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
You nailed the source of my quote on wood prices and quality - it was a kitchen manufacturer!If prime hard woods are a tenth of your cost you must do some beautiful work; and you must know the business very, very well.Lets set aside the point on wood costs for the moment At your level you are right - but at my level wood is very expensive!Can you tell me - do you see any new trends in the post 2000 period the would attract woodworkers interests, but are not anchored in the 1700-1860 period?I can give you a bad example: it is the Memphis style of the 1980 that I thought important; connected to post pop art culture and I would expect extremely collectible.It was extremely original, a watershed event in art, woodworking, textiles, apolstery, metal working and new surfact development, etc. Again this is a bad example because it takes me off mesage, I am more interested in what you have seen and what new non traditional looks will take hold. Usually it is those really attuned to the business that can see just over the horizon.In a funny way those that are perhaps most upset with the idea that "I am tired of traditional....." are perhaps the best qualified to tell whats going to be new!!And by the way - thank you for you post.
Best,
JImI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I don't know the future, but I suspect the ability of the designer craftsman to make a living entirely off one-off pieces each requiring a very large input of labour is going to get harder and harder. It's already difficult to make a living in that field, but I see it getting even more difficult. The far east manufacturers are able to make highly complex pieces of not very original furniture cheaply due to very low labour costs and affordable transport costs-- at the moment.
That will change as transport and labour rates increase along with the other burdens of so called civilised society, eg, labour laws, middle class expectations and environmental considerations. The Chinese and Indian economies now remind me of the rapacious robber barons of the American 19th century or the Victorian British. A super rich elite and a huge underpaid working class, and nothing much in between.
I do suspect that there will be a place in 'The West' for innovative furniture designers and makers that marry interesting but not overboard design with some or substantial batch type production. This will probably include the use of man-made flat panel materials and careful use of solid wood to keep down costs, but still make an interesting product that's good quality and fair value for money. Not cheap, but not super expensive either. There is a large segment of very well off but not super rich members of our society.
I'm not saying there is no place for the maker of highly complex pieces, whether reproduction or contemporary, but I am saying I think it's going to be a tougher market. But there are always niche players that will be able to find buyers for those one-offs. It becomes a sort rarified art market when you get to that point. Everybody wants to buy your stuff: almost nobody can, but it's desirable just because, well, it is.
Those that will pay anything to make a statement about their power and wealth just put your work on 'display' somewhere after they've choked up £100,000 for one of your tables or a chair. They know full well they can buy a perfectly serviceable table for £300 or £1000, but that's not the point.
All largely speculation on my part, but I've thought much along these lines for the last five or ten years as I've watched my profession change since I began my training as a furniture maker in 1973. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/21/2007 4:07 pm by SgianDubh
Slainte;
Very thoughtful comments. your comments of one-off becoming more challenging, or rather a tougher business is very interesting. In the art business in the 1800's and 1900's you often had a group of artisans that would band together, denounce previous tastes, write a manifesto (this was mandatory for each new wave of ideas) to explain why the past art was crap, and the new style correct; it was generally tied to morality, purity, virtue of craftsmen and the like. In furniture, certinally Art Nouveau - the rebellion against cheep industrialization based furnuture with a combining of organic art themes; Art Deco, the rebellion against Art Nouveau with the replacement of new materials with themes relying on function over fashion; and the Craft Movement with the excessses of art Deco being thrown out the window - think Mackentosh, Frank Lyod Write, and the rest. Your comment that one-off (one of a kind piece) is suffering, is I think why the art market kind of went dead after 1960's POP (Andy Worhall, Litchenstein, and the rest).In the one of the kind business, there appears to be a lethargy and a repetition in woodworking circles; there need a clarion to decry a menefesto! Down with IKEA! Down with Shaker!, Down with Chippendale! All fail to understand the true needs of todays society. Down with furniture supplied by slave labor!You get the drift. Passion. There is no Collective of Artists claiming the high ground. Rather there are individuals, many with extraordinary talent, with silent voices and having prices dictated by the client rather than the other way around. While the tread has probably run its course, it could give rise to another. Are there furniture makers and hobbyists that can cobble together a clear new wave ideas that are compelling, and sublime.To all that may take offence on the comments: please understand the intent was to inspire at the expense that it would be taken as criticisms. This has been a great thread and the kind comments have all been inspiring to me.Best,
JImI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim,
Your aside concerning pop-art hit a small mental button of mine. I think there has been a change away from mass-movement styles of thinking, ironically because of the eforts of big business and their advertisers to make us all behave en masse. People have tastes that very wildly and widely across a massive range of styles, pushed at them by the marketing men. Art now is pop-art - the incredible depth of, and ever changing, design attributes in everyday consumer goods.
In some ways IKEA is a "movement" but one to do with economics as much as aestheics. It represents "cheap and easily replaceable", both attributes that are far from those traditionally connected with high-quality, high-art bespoke furniture.
It might be possible to start a furniture style-movement based on some pure aesthetic or other; but in today's world it would last, at best, for one season (annual marketing round) and would probably never leave the ground if it didn't contain that inbuilt "cheap and replaceable" factor.
I'm less and less certain myself whether it makes sense to built stuff for the longer term (or at least to expect that it will survive endless fashion/buying cycles). There will no doubt continue to be a market for antiques (the detritus of past times, as a post-modern fellow might desribe it). But more and more such antiques are "an investment" which has nothing to do with their intrinsic worth as objects of beauty, utility or whatever.
Consider the old-camera market. Once they were used by enthusiasts. They are now mostly collected and put in a vault; digital technology makes their image-creating capabilities largerly redundant or superseded. Old Leicas will become ornaments, at best.
So, although I for one have snickered and pointed a bit at modern furniture, perhaps a "constant revolution" is where furniture makers will inevitably end up? No one will want our G&G or Chippendale, as furniture will become more like clothes or cameras - the consumer must have the latest thang and there must always be a latest thang, preferably with major "improvements" over the last no-longer latest thang......?
I suppose I better rush out and get that vacuum press and a CNC machine.
Lataxe
Latate;
I think your touching on built in obsolescence on the Lycas a good example.Trends I see include some of these points.1. best designed item that will influence appliances color schemes and materials: Apple Computer in general and the I pod & I phone specifically. A visit to an Apple store illistrates a uniform method of post modern form and function. You will not see any trim in cherry, maple, walnut or beach. Perhaps this suggests use of more glass and lighting in design, and some unassuming but elegantly presented electronic conveniences such as doors or compartments that open with a wave of the hand, Why? - Because the table in front of the couch - which used to hold magazines and news papers doesn't have any of either to hold anymore. That table needs a new use or it will vanish.2. Globalisms effect on disappearance of hard woods(figure it all goes to China, Russia and India in 20 years). This is already happening. In Connecticut one of the saw mills in the North western hills tells me all the hardwoods that are harvested in his area are sold to Canada - 100%.
Even Thomas Moser in Maine - and thats a state with large forests - buys all his black cherry lumber from Pennsylyania. Because black cherry is not available in the Maine forests!3. regional materials will come into play; figure in the North East Pine wood as a starting point(starter point doesn't mean you use pine it simply means you start with pine and then tweak it); Milled, dyed, embellished concrete as a construction material.Glass,Akuminum and recycled materials for both textiles and structural members.Textiles should be incorporated into furnature but leather should defiantly fall out of favor due to politics.The purpose of Furniture will change with a changing world. I find desks no longer are made the way I want to use them, I prefer chairs that have lumbar support and high backs. I can't sit for any length of time in a Windsor chair; I think I am tiering of cherry wood with natural finish, the same way people fell out of favor of the pigment dyed brown furniture of the 1960's; I think your comment on the life cycle of the prized Lica Camera, shows that no matter how important an item or idea is, it has a shelf life after which you will only see diminishing returns.I have tried to reply to all responses as I wanted to see where this thread could go. We have an engineer that laid down the the foundation tenents of a manifesto. We have had what I suspect, extremely bright engineers from different industries, including aro-space.
We have accomplished high end furniture designers from both here and Brittan My original thought was Fine Woodworking /Knots has the cream of the cream, those with gravitas in the wood working field; were these people to come together, and the talent held together in an a loose confederation; sharing mutually acceptable ideas and principals could start a new movement. There is more repetition than challenges in wood working after a certain point. If you would like to take this further, establish a manifesto on new design for post modern America, and set up a thead or threads here to execute ideas. Send me a note back that you want to be involved. For it to work it would need talent. If it worked, you too could share what Andy Worhall said "everyone gets five minutes of fame"Best,JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
My original thought was Fine Woodworking /Knots has the cream of the cream...And then you have folks like me... :>) Sort of the coffee stain in the cup...built in obsolescence.. Why bother.. Seems that folks these days just buy what others have and try to get on a little better.. And I have one of those OLD green refrigerators that still works?A visit to an Apple store illustrates a uniform method of post modern form and function... Yes, I do not recall ANY wood. I should have not said this because I do not even own a Cell-Phone! Waste of money AND time!which used to hold magazines and news papers.. Wrong.. Many useless magazines but hardly ever a good old Newspaper.. Why folks today get surprised if something bad happens around them.saw mills in the North western hills tells me all the hardwoods that are harvested in his area are sold to Canada - 100%.http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/environment/forest/forestcanada/forestedecozones/1 I have no idea if all posted at this link is true or not but I can see why.. On two flights to China, I flew ALONG time over Canada and could see all the millions and millions of trees below.. I would not believe ANYBODY or any MACHINE could get to them in any reasonable manner!manifesto on new design for post modern America.. Yep a wool rug.. I do not think they kill the sheep.. You know ya' need more hair next year.. Use Pine and Better yet Fir! Grows fast and just loves our growing zones..color schemes.. Right ON!.. Kids today have no idea of materials.. Color for the times is all that matters!Really not knocking the Modern Child.. They are VERY BRIGHT and well Educated.. And better Educated at grade school than I was leaving high school! (As you can tell by my words in here) AND I majored in English in college! OK, so I never listened well in class but I knew all the girls well from watching them...Andy Worhall said "everyone gets five minutes of fame"
I just had one minute! My frist kiss and we were married a few years after that!LATAXE,, By the way... GREAT POST!Sure wish I had this book when I was in School.. The teacher NEVER thaught us how to.. "and even Shakespearean experts rely on guesswork or must consult a specialized dictionary when confronting unusual words."http://members.aol.com/dalecoye/shakespeare.htmSort of me when I carry on. And ALOT of us here in Knots!
WillGeorge!
First of all "green" refigerators are back in - it is the Avocado, ones that are out of date.Second In reference to you comment in which Andy promised five minuets of fame and you only got one - that sounds like you got four more coming!As to 100% of hard woods in the north east going for export, well, that is North east Connecticut, and then again you got to factor in that it is Connecticut to begin with.Your suggestion on wool rug is insightful - I definitely need to rethink this thing.
Oh, by the way, Merry Christmas.Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Richard;
This is a second reply to your post to me. When i read your post I didn't jump on the hyper link to see your work and read your bio. You are extremely talented. It is a pleasure to have one of your background and skill level on this thread! Thanks for your input.Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Don't go offering praise to me like that Jim. I could get all sweely heided and start to believe my own lies and fictions.
Just because furniture is my job that doesn't necessarily make my opinion right or give it any particular credence. Anyone else that offers an opinion after giving the subject some serious and rational thought has just as much right to be taken seriously. Sometimes the amateurs see things with a fresh outlook that my cynical, jaded, world weary and jaundiced eye fails to spot, or can't be bothered to notice.
Anyway, if you're tired of all that reproduction stuff, and I think that's neither good nor bad, the only real answer is to get your pencil and paper out and try to design your own. It might take some-- a lot-- of practice, but that's probably the only way.
I have to side with you to some extent because I've never really understood things like Queen Anne television cabinets and Shaker computer desks. I tend to prefer furniture intended to satisfy the needs of contemporary technology and lifestyles that reflects that in their design and their use of materials. That's not to say wood shouldn't be used, but I don't see, for instance, any real connection between Queen Anne style cabriole legs and televisions.
People are generally conservative in their tastes, and it's obvious from the number of sales of 'reproduction' entertainment centres that many of those buyers have no problem mixing motifs from 200 or 300 years ago with the plastic, chrome, brushed aluminium and the greys and blacks that are primarily selected from the colour palette in most electronic gear. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
but I don't see, for instance, any real connection between Queen Anne style cabriole legs and televisions.
Why does there need to be a connection? In my case I'm adapting QA style to a modern function. Not meaning to be argumentative but I'm missing your point.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, I'm not saying there's anything wrong as such, but the Queen Anne style evolved at a particular historical point in response to social mores of the period. It's appropriate to that time and makes sense.
What's the connection with that style and contemporary equipment? That's the point I'm making. Might it be appropriate to evolve contemporary furniture to reflect contemporary equipment?
I think an argument can be made for all sorts of designs to house televisions, but the Queen Anne leg, that is frequently married to further vaguely Queen Anne properties in a cabinet, isn't, to me, an obvious connection. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
It's getting harder and harder to adapt traditional designs for modern requirements. I remember when the much-maligned Norm did a quite effective Shaker style apothecary cabinet adapted to house CDs. Only old geezers buy CDs any more; the young download music into a pocket-sized gizmo. Anyone who built that cabinet is probably scratching his head figuring out how to adapt it again. (I could use it in my workshop.) What furniture do you need for a wallhung TV or a laptop? I just like the look of 18th c. furniture, even though the upper drawers of a highboy are pretty much useless for practical purposes. They have been for centuries now, and some people still buy them. They're still marginally more practical than the spindly stuff that goes straight into a museum as "art." Anyway, most household furniture is bought by women, occasionally on impulse, and I'm not sure that practical is always on their minds. They like the look, or they don't.
Jim
Jim
your right, with regards to CD holder-furniture. Another is a book shelf designed exclusively to hold books, or furniture that people had next to their easy chair to hold magazines and especially newspapers. Home entertainment centers are less relevant as most of the stand alone electronics components are shrinking, or hanging on the wall. The one thing that doesn't change however is contemporary Americas desire to display elements of status. The people with the money, define status.The 30 to 40 year olds probably, has the greatest number of candidates seeking goods that define their life style, design components have to make sense to that group much in the same way it did in the 1600's, 1700's ....1900'sDesigners follow patrons wishes more than the other way around.
best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hello Richard,
The argument is, I think, somewhat the reverse of the one you are posing. That is, what is one to do with modern electronic components in a room that is furnished with traditional furnishings, other than hide them in a traditional cabinet? Over the years, I've seen many a wardrobe, linen press and cupboard gutted of its original interior to make room for the stereo and tv. Better, I believe, to have a purpose made cabinet in a compatible style, than a bastardized antique.
A shaker tv cabinet is a juxtaposition of style and purpose, at many levels, I have to admit!
Regards,
Ray
Ray, your reply represents the other direction my mind considers. What to do if your house is full of antiques or reproduction furniture, yet you still want the modern technology?
A modern piece of furniture to suit the TV, computer and so on could look out of place. This design thing is a dilemma no doubt about it. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
The solution is simple: get rid of the TV.Nothing good on it anyway, and catching a football game is more fun with friends at the local chicken-wing establishment. Alternatively if you like watching movies, a flat panel mounted on the wall clashes less if there's no piece of furniture beneath it. I have a TV (and no cable or antenna) for watching movies. 52" plasma. Anyway, I mounted it on a wall by itself, ran all the wires through the wall into a nearby closet, and put the HD DVD player and disks in there. Otherwise I agree with you, TVs on or in furniture look terrible, without exception. Either the furniture is old fashioned and it clashes, or it's modern and it's as ugly as the TV.Stereos can also be kept in closets out of sight, and speakers can be quite nice pieces of furniture in their own right if you avoid the standard black box. B&W makes some wonderful speakers in different kinds of wood cabinet.As for a computer, get a laptop. Nowadays there's a negligible performance difference, and laptops can be easily tucked out of sight on a bookshelf or in that same closet. Get wireless in your house and you can use your laptop on your favorite couch, far from any outlet.
---Pedro, sitting on his couch with his laptop in a high-tech room with no obnoxious high-tech gadgets.
Hi;
You said:
the Queen Anne leg, that is frequently married to further vaguely Queen Anne properties in a cabinet, isn't, to me, an obvious connection.Yes, the Queen Anne Leg being done for the fact that the Queen Anne Leg
can be done, discredits the Queen Anne Leg!The fact it can be done doesn't mean it should be done!
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hi Richard,
OK, here's my point. Both the wife and I like the QA style of furniture. Also, we wanted an entertainment center of sorts that doesn't commandere the whole room. The ones you typically see today are huge, for the most part. So we want the centre to look more like a piece of furniture that DOESN'T look like an EC.
If you look around in some furniture stores I think you'll find all sorts of variations on different styles. I've seen tall jewelry stands (for lack of a better way of describing it) with cabriole legs and cases that look like they are more Shaker than QA. You figure.
Oh my, I think I just figured out what you're trying to tell me, but I'm wording it a different way? Let me try again with, you don't like the notion of bastardizing a furniture style to fit a different function? Is that another way of putting it?
I'm not trying to badger you as I have a tremendous respect for your talents but rather am running this by you in the hopes that I haven't made a mistake in my design, which now that I think about it I have taken bastardization to another level. Perhaps I'm as guilty as the person who designed that tall jewelry stand!
If I were to describe what I've designed I would call it Low QA Sideboard. How's that for totally messing with styles/forms!?
Now let me take that even farther. Can you offer a QA style mirror to house the flat panel display to be mounted on the wall!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Can you offer a QA style mirror to house the flat panel display to be mounted on the wall!?"
Ha, ha. Er, uhm. No.
Regarding your dilemma though. Ask yourself some questions:
Do you want to hide your electronic gear?
Do you think your electronics are attractive?
Is it what it is (the TV and stuff) and I why shouldn't you expose it?
Are you trying to find a way to lose all those wires?
Do you have a problem with the electronic stuff exposed?
Are you more concerned with keeping the Queen Anne theme than you are with practicality?
Is there something wrong in your mind with mixing the old and the new?
Ask a few questions like this of yourself and see where you come down emotianally. In the end what you do will be down to your assessment of the situation. By asking yourself a bunch of questions you'll narrow down your essentials to just a few. Next to that will be some desirables, and beyond that a few 'might be nice's' if you get my drift.
In the end you'll come up with a brief and you'll be able to work within the Design Cycle.
Maybe you'll end up with essentially a simple flat and fairly long and deep shelf with off-centred open spaces underneath to put all the bits, and perhaps a drawer or cupboard or two.
That minimalist solution may not be to your taste and come hell or high water you'll still want to go for what you called the "bastardised Queen Anne look".
In the end you'll just have to do what you're comfortable with, but to be comfortable you need to think about what you are trying to achieve, and why, and how you'll do it and actually execute the solution. The Design Cycle, a version which I concocted below, I think is self explanatory, but, in short, everything is centred on The Task or The Project. You've got to keep going back to the basic task to check you're answering the questions you pose and fulfilling the needs of The Project. Slainte.
View ImageRichard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I enjoyed your coloured concentric tyres ("tyres not of the traditional") as I have seen them many times on the projection screens of various consultants, process-lecturers and others of that ilk, when I was at work (spit). They do indeed seem wise - until you realise that they tell you absolutely nothing about how to achieve anything specific or concrete.
It's worse than that. Naive folk get a-holden of this diagram and others like it then believe they are then qualfied to do design or plans. Aha, but they have forgotten to put any grist in their design-mill and have left out the meat and potatoes from their planning pot.
Of course, were one to have been schooled in (or otherwise acquired) a set of design models, paradigms or similar, the pretty wheel might help in bringing forth a specific intent. But that wheel cannot supply the intent nor any of those styles and modes that will actually populate concrete designs or plans.
But I'm sure you already knew that.
So, TT's issue is as yet unresolved. I think he is asking: what should inform a mode of furniture design and configuration for current lifestyles; (and perhaps: what skills/techniques are required to manifest the designs)? Some of the discussion in the thread makes relevant points that might be ingrediant. But what is the recipe? We have not got it yet.
Lataxe, still thinking on an essay.
JB,
What I did was sort of find a need and fill it. In other words, the wife and I had a need to make a piece. It had to fulfill a function and be agreeable to our chosen style of furniture.
I read countless books and looked at thousands of pictures, but none of them were configured the right way. So, I picked a lowboy and simply stretched it to be a long lowboy. Then we had to fiddle with the dimensions so's it would maintain that golden mean thang.
That Richard wheel at first had my head spinning. Then I read the questions he suggested that I ask of the piece. That made me as nervous as a long tailed cat in a roomful of rocking chairs!
Then I copied and pasted it into an email and sent to the wife (boss). She replied, "WOW! Who is that guy, some kinda architect? I thought about it and you know what? I think we're OK"
Curlin me tail so's it don't get rocked on,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 12/27/2007 2:24 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Lataxe, yes I am aware of the pitfalls, or should that be pratfalls of the seemingly simple Design Cycle in its simplistic graphic form.
Improperly used the Design Cycle reminds of the saying someone uttered about computers: Garbage in; Garbage out.
You're asking for a recipe for contemporary designers to operate with? A sort of add a bit of this, and stir in a bit of that, and drizzle on a bit of something else, and hey presto, one answer fits all type of thing?
I don't know the answer to that, and I don't think anybody can provide a contemporary designer's credo to live by. I think some designers either get lucky or spot a niche they can design for successfully. They make some money, are in demand and do alright for themselves, and yet probably only satisfy the aesthetic taste of perhaps 5% or 10% of the population. An even smaller percentage will buy their stuff, but they still do very well out of it. That still doesn't provide a designer's template to satisfy the needs of the majority of the population. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard, This is very well put. I just responded to an earlier post, wanting to lead around to what you just posted here.I guess I need to read on and catch up on this thread.
Hey Richard, I don't disagree with what you have said, but over here, I am seeing some pretty good designed furniture in some stores which is made from nice exotic hardwood being sold for less than I can buy the raw material for. The world market may not be a competitive factor where you are, but I am feeling the effects. Even more, I feel the skittishness of those who are worried about their investments, not wanting to spend on unnecessary things now.
Bravo, bravo. I, too, have my eyes toward the sky for something new.
"Fools walk in where angels fear to tread."
I, too, have wanted to move on with my woodworking. However, as an engineer, I am not known for my artistic inclinations. I DO have a basic philosophy about my work - it must have INTEGRITY.
Functional Integrity - It must serve well the task for which it is intended, be it a table or a toy-box.
Structural Integrity - The joinery must be solid and skillfully executed.
Aesthetic Integrity - Here I am on shaky ground - "What is aesthetically pleasing to me may not be aesthetically pleasing to thee." In the end we must please ourselves and avoid schlock for the sake of shock.
I offer three of my pieces as examples of my movement away from the ordinary:
Glass-top corner table - a modification of a piece by Christian Becksvoort.
Arch Table - Inspired by a bridge I saw in Japan with details from a piece by David Marcoux.
Sherry Table - Pure self-design. The only parameters were a 'small table, no more that 12" wide.
I don;t know if this will help "scratch your itch" but perhaps it will move the discussion forward.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Woodworking is like the other arts in this respect. All art is derivative, so its very hard to invent something new because woodworking has the test of time behind it. Every joint and all the other aspects of the craft are fixed. I noticed you haven't "invented" any new method, and neither have the rest of us. I love Shaker things and their simplicity. We need this type of simplicity in all our lives right now. This is a complex world, and to do just simple things are a great joy. Study a little Zen ,and look at the art of Zen, and see the beauty of simple things.
Merry Christmas
~~mike
Mike;
yes, I certainly understand the attraction to the symmetry and simplicity of the lines, I am happy you have a form that off sets the drumbeat of a busy life.
Thanks for the post.Merry Christmas,
Best.
jimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
TT,
I feel a considerative essay coming on........
"Parameters for a contemporary furniture style....."
Lataxe, A Schoolman bored of that old angel on the pinhed issue (still unsolved).
Lat;
I am delighted!
I don't have the skills to carry the conversations further. The conversation can precede or forecast the events horizon in design. (I stole that line from Stephen Hawkins!)I confess an interest in the forcast.Lataxe- I pass the baton!Merry Christmas.Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim, I think I failed to mention that I had started a thread somewhat like this over on the furniture society forum back in early Nov. I had forgotten about it, but just went over for a look, and was surprised to see that it has taken off in a similar direction with a life of its own. It will take a while to read all of it, but some of the links to other sites may be interesting to you. Here is a link.http://www.furnituresociety.org/frames/fforums/home.shtmlWell, I guess you will have to click the Studio Furniture link at the top left, then it is the Art Nouveau time discussion.
42 angels per pin
Check out http://www.crfinefurniture.com
Hi Ted;
Is there a uniform design element behind what is displayed?
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hi two-t, I am sorry I missed out on most of this thread. I read it in the beginning, and think I may have written something that I didn't post, but just gave it another look, and like where you are coming from. I am and have been in the same place for quite some time. Having been a designer / maker for about 35 years, one can't ignore history without just stumbling onto designs that have already been done, so I am aware of the difficulty of finding a groove which is not ground that has already been plowed. Because of the ergonomic factors of having functional works fit the human anatomy, is a very limiting factor. Thus making new style a miserable task. I use the word miserable task fondly, because I love a challenge. But as you know it is hard to design anything that looks totally original.One of my favorite style periods is the Art Nouveau, which was inspired by nature. My most recent book, actually last two were on this period. The Paul Greenhalgh "Art Nouveau 1890 -1914" The cult of Nature. I was hoping to find something inspirational that I had not seen before. I am sad to say, I didn't. But I pulled out another of my favorite books on that period. It was the Phillippe Garner book on Emille Galle. As I flipped through it, I found a few lines which I had highlighted back in whenever, it was published in 1976, but reads. "Modern furniture is that made by our own generation to our own taste, for our pleasure and adapted to the needs of daily life. As for beauty, it is to be found only in the pursuit of truth. ""The association of the ideals of truth and beauty has a certain ring of inevitability. Galle succeeds, however, in adding to its significance as he elaborates: beauty is to be found only in the sympathetic application of the principles of natural growth, of the structure of linearity of nature, infinitely variable, infinitely exploitable. By faithfully following the natural lines of appropriately chosen plants one will synthesis the logic and essence of life itself and the results will, naturally and inevitably, be beautiful. ""Such contemporary furniture will reflect life,valuing the truth of nature above all artificial eclecticism. It will have character, for its lines are those of living, reacting organisms, and it will have feeling because the artist inspired by nature could not fail to express in his work the deep communion of his creative spirit with creation itself."All of my life I have felt a special closeness with nature, have as a hobby been a nature-photographer for years and finally finding that the two are merging. If I could choose a new design form, it would have to be inspired by nature. This reminds me of another saying that I used to quote, or not perfectly by Emerson. It was something like " There is so much new information to be learned from nature, that if having discovered some of its secrets, can totally change the path of ones life. Thus this information which is out there yet to be discovered is a part of yourself that you don't know yet." That simple statement changed the way I looked at nature from then on, and made me hungry for as much information about all aspects of it that I can learn. NATURE HAS SO MUCH MORE THAN WAS USED DURING THE A-N PERIOD, and other periods. If I could choose a path, and get others to follow, rather join me, I would look for ways to bring the beauty of nature, and science into my inspired work.
Keith;
You wrote two books - tell me more! You have an obvious fascination with the craft!What was your position to get published? Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I think you misunderstood what I meant to say, was the last two books which I purchased. I have not been published, and don't pretend to be a writer. I have been in the woodworking business for over 35 years with my own shop, except for about two years. One running a plastic shop, and another as a yacht captain.Sorry for not being more clear.
Keith;
Thanks for your correction from my part.I still am interested in your thoughts.
Best,
Jim
I know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I think we all like to have a challenge, and I like the challenge of doing something that nobody else has done. I had lunch with a woodworking friend yesterday, who is the local club program chairman. He was wondering if I would be willing to either host a meeting or offer a workshop. I told him that I had been thinking about a couple of projects that I am wanting to do, and in the past, what I have done is offer it as a workshop where whomever signs up, gets to come over one evening a week, and help work on one of these projects, for however long the project takes.This provides the impetus to get me going on a project that will challenge me, without having to sell it to a customer before it is made,Most of the local classes are set up where the student works on a project of their own choosing, which is theirs when they finish, which is nice. But most people don't know how to think far enough outside of the box to really challenge or stretch the boundaries. What I will try to do is offer several models of projects to choose from which I would like to do, which will surely offer a challenge to most of us at least in one area. We will do something that has no flat parts, and the joints will not be square. There will be lots of carving and maybe some steam-bending, and hinge making, and or etched glass. We'll see how this goes, wish me luck.
Keith;
You are only sharing what you want to do in a class........You are hinting that you have ideas that are in your mind and that are beyond the class....Common Keith, you have some ideas that your keeping, well hidden!
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Jim, I am not sure what you are wanting me to share. But I do have plenty of ideas. I am a very creative person with some pretty good skills, and a nice shop to do just about anything I can conceive. Yes, I have many ideas which would be totally fresh and new, I am afraid I am not a good salesman, and need to find a way to link up with patrons who are willing to finance some of those ideas. I don't recall if I provided a link to the gallery handling my work. While I do turnings, and usually carve them, that is more an easy way to play with ideas for things to use, than an end in itself, and I don't do as much of it as I should.http://www.cctaylorgallery.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=3If you want a tip for a way to inspire yourself, try this. Find the two most creative artist whom you admire, and study their work. Then choose an item that you would like to do, then fit yourself between them. Take the best of each, and try to work it into the piece. It is OK if others can see the influence of either or both. If it is not a copy of either, then it is yours. If this is what you do for the next few projects, that is fine. After a while you will probably find that you are doing a continuation of ideas that you have been working with, and it will show. I hope this helps. K
K;
Thanks so much for your comments.
Your advice is, with respect, great advise. I will follow it!
Best,
JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Hum, You have been asking some great questions, without giving out much to reveal where you are, or where you are coming from. What have you been doing, and what would you like to be doing. If you want to send me your email address, I will send you some photos with some ideas that I am working on. Not sure I want to post them on here yet though. I am not sure that I can send photos through the contact on the profile link.
Hi Keith;
my email is [email protected]
Love to see what you are doing.You are right, I have held my cards very close to the vest. Not intentionally, but because what I do is part of the same cycles as most other wood workers, and quite frankly I am looking for projects that are interesting to me, and work in my home. The other issue is cost. a professional can spend a fortune on wood because it is a cost of doing business.
Hobbiest can't afford wood at $ 20.00 a board foot and do many projects. I know you don't have to pay that amount -but at that rate 200 square feet is equil to a vacation for an entire family.The last project I finished was a Thomas Moser design Sleigh bed in cherry. To make the project interesting, I wanted to have the wood from the area that I live. So I bought a log, had it cut and dried at the lumber mill and followed through. I intentionally used just a touch of heart wood and included a knot in the headboard rail just to make it interesting to me. I also did an unusual finish I used BLO and puddled it, which of course doesn't dry, I then buffed out the tacky blo with a buffer and Butchers wax. The finish is fabulous. So that is an example, I made the project as interesting to me as I could.Best,
Jim To make that project I know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
Spectacular!That has got to be some of the loveliest work I've seen on this forum. Certainly the most original. Beautiful stuff. The pomegranate bowls are lovely, and that writing desk is magnificent. The curves! Wonderful, absolutely wonderful. Now if you wrote an article for FWW on how you built that desk, I bet that would quiet the disgruntled souls on this and the magazine feedback threads. I for one would treasure it.Amazing stuff, thank you for sharing. I feel quite humbled.
---Pedro
Pedro,
Indeed!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Pedro, and Bob. Good to have your feedback. I will try to post more often. Maybe someday, I will sneak into the pages of FWW through the back door, if one of you fellows here can wedge it open for me. K
Hi two-t, I am sorry I missed out on most of this thread. I read it in the beginning, and think I may have written something that I didn't post, but just gave it another look, and like where you are coming from. I am and have been in the same place for quite some time. Having been a designer / maker for about 35 years, one can't ignore history without just stumbling onto designs that have already been done, so I am aware of the difficulty of finding a groove which is not ground that has already been plowed. Because of the ergonomic factors of having functional works fit the human anatomy, is a very limiting factor. Thus making new style a miserable task. I use the word miserable task fondly, because I love a challenge. But as you know it is hard to design anything that looks totally original.One of my favorite style periods is the Art Nouveau, which was inspired by nature. My most recent book, actually last two were on this period. The Paul Greenhalgh "Art Nouveau 1890 -1914" The cult of Nature. I was hoping to find something inspirational that I had not seen before. I am sad to say, I didn't. But I pulled out another of my favorite books on that period. It was the Phillippe Garner book on Emille Galle. As I flipped through it, I found a few lines which I had highlighted back in whenever, it was published in 1976, but reads. "Modern furniture is that made by our own generation to our own taste, for our pleasure and adapted to the needs of daily life. As for beauty, it is to be found only in the pursuit of truth. ""The association of the ideals of truth and beauty has a certain ring of inevitability. Galle succeeds, however, in adding to its significance as he elaborates: beauty is to be found only in the sympathetic application of the principles of natural growth, of the structure of linearity of nature, infinitely variable, infinitely exploitable. By faithfully following the natural lines of appropriately chosen plants one will synthesis the logic and essence of life itself and the results will, naturally and inevitably, be beautiful. ""Such contemporary furniture will reflect life,valuing the truth of nature above all artificial eclecticism. It will have character, for its lines are those of living, reacting organisms, and it will have feeling because the artist inspired by nature could not fail to express in his work the deep communion of his creative spirit with creation itself."All of my life I have felt a special closeness with nature, have as a hobby been a nature-photographer for years and finally finding that the two are merging. If I could choose a new design form, it would have to be inspired by nature. This reminds me of another saying that I used to quote, or not perfectly by Emerson. It was something like " There is so much new information to be learned from nature, that if having discovered some of its secrets, can totally change the path of ones life. Thus this information which is out there yet to be discovered is a part of yourself that you don't know yet." That simple statement changed the way I looked at nature from then on, and made me hungry for as much information about all aspects of it that I can learn. NATURE HAS SO MUCH MORE THAN WAS USED DURING THE A-N PERIOD, and other periods. If I could choose a path, and get others to follow, rather join me, I would look for ways to bring the beauty of nature, and science into my inspired work.My website is down now, but here is a link to the local gallery which carries my work.http://www.cctaylorgallery.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=2
Edited 12/29/2007 8:26 pm by KeithNewton
Hi Keith;
Thanks for the post.I found a number of things that you said very interesting to me.You said: "Because of the ergonomic factors of having functional works fit the human anatomy, is a very limiting factor".I think one reason is that traditional woodworking designs leaves out upholstery and textiles, and I think that plays back to the ergonomic factors you mentioned. I am a huge fan of art nouveau in general, and the theme of nature. I also like the some of the art deco period as well. I very much like what architects did with furniture, because their furniture told a story of the interior which related to the exterior.For example I like some of the chairs and benches of Walter Groupius. I also like Charles Renne Mackintosh and Frank Loyd Write, and Koolman Moser. At a contemporary level I like the work of Thomas Moser, who has "invented" new joinery but combines it with textiles, leathers and rich woods.Many that have participated in this thread seem to be commenting from the point of view based on what they live with in their home and look at new furniture as replacement furniture. Or, I think many view successful money making designs as somewhat static. A bad example is the chain saw carvers, that can make incredible things - but sell mostly, well, bears. The art Nouveau Art deco periods are interesting as they were a result of a rebellion against mass manufacturing and materials. I think we are at the upside of the same cycle.Status items are not mass market items. But status items must incorporate the ergonomic factors, which 1700 and 1800 furniture did not address well, or if they did don't seem to be popular items reproduced in lots of custom shops.So I agree with you. The obsolescence of furniture piece from the home - including the changing home floor plan; the Environmental Movement with its nearly religious inspection of materials, the need for ergonomic factors, new demands of functionality, - and the perhaps necessary inclusion of textiles and synthetic materials, will mold new design. Nature is again going to be fundamental in design.Thats is what I believe. That is one of the reasons that I find woodworking magazines, or other media for the woodworker simply stuck on traditional.There is potentially more to it than is discussed.best,
JimBest,JimI know less than half of you, half as much as I should Like;
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
I kind of got into that same feeling around the time that I needed to build a footbridge in our wooded area. I searched through planbooks and design sets with very traditional type designs (from British Isles, Europe) and was dissatisfied. It all looked familiar and usual. Then I happened across a Japanese style document and from that spent months studying what influences I could take from that work. I designed and am building a foot bridge that is Japanese influenced with 'modern' mechanical devices and treaments. I had shifted my focus from the usual to the unusual and found a new way to express my woodworking. This has been an amazing joy.
Sauron,
Still waiting for your response,
Strider
I like less than have of you, half as much as you deserve.
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