Based on previous posts, regarding yellow wood glue shelf life ( 12 months), I threw my big gallon of Elmers in the trash and got some Titebond Original Wood Glue from Lowes as a replacement.
I glued up some Cherry boards and I’m not too comfortable with the results. I normally use a joint bit, for that extra glue surface and support, but no one here seems to use a joint bit so, this time I did not either.
I cut the glued up panels into arch shapes, giving me the opportunity to test the glue joint on some of the scraps. Not impressed, as I got probably 98% glue failure and 2% wood failure.
First thing I always do is look at what I did wrong, could it be the following:
1.) The glue joints were 24 hours old, was this too soon?
2.) I glued up in my garage, attached to the house, temperatures in Central California were between 38 and 57, not sure what they were inside my garage. Could this be the cause?
3.) How do I know the age of this glue? There is an ink jet print on the bottle, which is coded, so it means nothing to me. Could this have been on the shelf for more than a year?
4.) I got perfect edges on the boards from my jointer, with a set of sharp blades, giving a shiny finish. Could it be that I did not get good glue penetration?
5.) Final question….. Should I rip the joints and try again?
Edited 2/8/2005 2:54 pm ET by Jellyrug
Replies
Too cold JellyRug
S*%*^**(^(T!!!!!
What do I do now, rip the joints and try again?
Yep. If your garage is unheated you should bring your glue-ups inside the house for a day or two to cure (if the stock is cold). In hot weather, PVA is ready in a few hours but when I've used it, and it's been a long time, I never pushed it that fast. I usually had other stuff to do while panels were curing anyway.
Obvious alternative - get some heat into the garage. You need to bring it up to 60 or 65 degrees at least and leave the pieces to set more than 24 hours. I don't recommend setting the pieces in front of a portable heater in an attempt to heat a small space instead of the whole shop. This usually results in unwanted panel movement.
Edited 2/8/2005 3:07 pm ET by cstan
Direct quotes from Titebond's website:
1)
"What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?
For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours. For Titebond Polyurethane Glue, we recommend clamping for at least forty-five minutes. The glue is completely cured within 6 hours. "
2)
"Titebond Original: Chalk temperature*Approx. 50°F.
Titebond III: Chalk temperature*Approx. 47°F
*Chalk temperature indicates the lowest recommended temperature at which the glue, air and materials
can be during application, to assure a good bond."
3)
"Most of our yellow and white glues, Titebond Original and Titebond II included, generally tend to last beyond two years. The shelf life of Titebond III is one year when stored below 75°F. When these glues go bad they get thick and stringy."
4)
I vaugely recall a FWW article about the mechanics of glue, including yellow glues. Essentially, the glue does not really penetrate into the wood. Last of all, from my own experiences, Titebond is not a "filler" glue. If your joint does not fit snugly initially and you must clamp it to force a tight fit, then you are working against the properties of the glue.
Z
I would also add that these temps and clamp times are on the label. JellyRug, read the label.......
Are you one of those who reads every label and instruction, which finds it's way into your life?
Just wandering, as I'm not and the Western world is rather abstact and right brain orientated. Your best woodworkers are all artists, not very much of the left side, or concrete side of brain application. Good balance though
You always seem angry and argumentitive, now, I guess we have to figure out where you fit in?
OK, so I screwed up, now I'm looking for the best solution, can you tolerate this?
Edited 2/8/2005 3:32 pm ET by Jellyrug
Edited 2/8/2005 3:32 pm ET by Jellyrug
Good idea to look at their website.
Perhaps all is not lost, I see they specify a curing property of overnight at 150F, giving 10% wood failure, that's a little more than I got.
I'm hoping that I can take the risk here and the joints will get stronger a few days from now?
Well...hopefully...but I wouldn't count on it based upon the temperatures you described. Depending upon the joint stress that you expect, I would probably strongly consider a muligan. :OZ
Thanks for the input from everyone.
I put a temperature gauge in the garage and got a reading at 5:00 AM this morning of 58F. Sunday was a bit colder, but I don't think it dipped below 50F, meaning I have not broken the Titebond rules.
I see they specify 10% wood failure, 90% glue failure overnight at 150F, so I'm sure the cold weather and 24 hours has not given the joint time to cure all the way.
Checked my glue bottle and it's four months old.
I'm doing pierced carving on these panels, so I will be cutting out the background and have some more scraps to test this week-end.
In the mean time, I'm back to my old ways of being the odd one out and will stick to using my joint bit on the shaper.
Hey Cstan,
I'm not pissed off, just human.
What I'm realy looking for is how this glue cures at a molecular level and if they (Franklin) get 10% wood failure overnight at 150F, perhaps what I got after 24 hours is not so bad.
You see, the wife parks her car in my garage and if I heat the garage to 150F, she will probably sue me.
By the way, after spraying all that lacquer, I still have a few brain cells left and I knew that 50F was necessary, but here in California, our houses are well built with central heating units, so I did not think my garage, with a wall and a door separating it will go below 50F. I have never cured panels in the house before, (the wife gets upset with the wood dust, imagine taking my shop into the house!!), so perhaps we are OK.
When you finish your Phd, please let me know how to read that code on the Titebond bottle, so I can calculate the age. Since you thoroughly read all your labels, this bit of missing information should be of high importance to you.
Jelly, you're making it harder than it needs to be, bro.
I pick my battles friend and pushing the temp at which a glue won't cure just isn't one of them. Sorry you're having trouble. Quit wasting your mental energy on this. The label tells you what you need to know. Buy fresh Titebond, in smaller quantities, and worry about something else. God knows there are enough challenges in the workshop. Fresh glue doesn't need to be one of them. Chalk temps either.
Edited 2/8/2005 4:21 pm ET by cstan
Cstan,
Thought I'd let you know that it's a few days later and I have done some scroll sawing on those glued-up panels. Plenty test pieces and this time the glue joints are much stronger than the wood itself.
So, it means it's OK to glue up around 50F, just give it a few days and don't expect wonders after 24 hours. Perhaps this was the advice I was looking for in the first place, but we live and we learn.
Cstan,
The fellows over at Titebond are very helpful.
Here is the missing piece, so now you can completely understand everything written on your bottle.
"Dear Mr. Martins,
Thank you for your inquiry. The ink jet code on our bottles is our lot
number and will indicate when the product was manufactured. The lot number
will start with a number, followed by a letter and than some more numbers.
The first number is the last digit of the year of manufacture, product made
this year will start with a 5. The letter that follows will indicate the
month of the year. For us, "A" is January, "B" is February, "C" is March
and so on. We do not use the letter "I", so December will be the letter
"M". I hope this information is helpful to you.
Sincerely,
Marc Bergdahl
Technical Specialist"
Franklin International
Jellyrug,
Thanks for doing the research on this - I've wondered in the past how old my glue was (or how long it had been on the hardware store shelf).
Wayne
Jellyrug ---
Gluing needs to be done right.
Removing clamps too soon on bent work may place enough stress on the glue line to cause failure of the glue.
My shop lacks heat. The temp is 36 for the most part. I have a plastic tent over my bench. Under the bench is a little electric heater, my wood for gluing, and my fixture for bending. Every 90 minutes I go out place the fixture on top of my bench, remove the glued part, apply glue to warm wood, clamp the new glue up together, and place the fixture under my bench. The removed part gets clamped for another 2 hours without the fixture. Another 4 or 5 more days and I can get a good night sleep.
I took a bent lamination class last summer from David Marks up in Santa Rosa. He was adamant about NOT using Titebond or other aliphatic glues for bent laminations as this type of glue "creeps".
His glue of choice is a plastic resin glue, Urac 185, and I have since used this glue with very good results. _________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
I also use Urac, for archery bows, but it is one glue that is very temperature sensitive. In fact, the manufacturer suggest heating the wood parts prior to glue up.Tom
You are right. I went back and re-read Jellyrugs post. He lives in the very cold part of California, the place where it gets down to 37. ;>) I just live in warm and sunny San Jose where it is 60d in my unheated garage. (11:00 PM)_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
How did you like David as an instructor. I was considering his veneering class.
It was a three day class with a bunch of MiniMax owners. He is a very nice guy, very knowledgeable and VERY easy to side track.
I would/will take another class from him._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Jellyrug.....
I'd say it depends a lot on how much stress you anticipate the joints to be subject to once the piece is in service. I've glued up things in my shop at below the advertized temps (no, I didn't read the label - I got the info here (grin)) ... and although the squeezout did indeed turn chalky at times, the joints weren't intended to be stressed a great deal and they've held up pretty well. In fact, I did break some of the cut-offs from edgeglued pieces and there was about a 50/50 failure between wood and glue. Personally I think the min. temps listed on the label (and echoed here) are on the conservative side. Give the pieces more time to cure and they might be fine. But just in case if you have any more scrap from the glueup to test after a couple days, give it a shot to make sure.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
38 and 57 I think about 50 is the limit but warmer better!
Not only too cold but too short a time for full strength to develop.
The glue clamp times and developed strength times are based on 70-75 degrees, 50% relative humidity and wood dried to less than 12%. These temperatures must be maintained for he full time the adhesive is curing. At the end of an hour, the joint will have developed about 10-15% of it's ultimate strength. In 12 hours it will be about 50-70% of strength and at the end of 24 hours it will be about 75 to 90 percent. Full cure will take 2 to three days or more. At 60 degrees, these times should be doubled and no gluing should be done below 55 degrees unless you use the new Titebond III which claims a 47 degree cut off.
The joints should be ripped apart and reglued keeping the item warm.
Jelly, I use an electric heater in my garage and it maintains a temp of about 60-65. The closer it gets to 60 the longer the set time is. I have not had any failure yet, but I have noticed a longer set time. To be on the safe side I keep my glues in the house in the wash room. The wife does not care for this, but I feel better knowing that the glue is not getting to cold. Good luck.
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