Replies

1. 
   KeithNewton | May 18, 2009 06:47am | #1

   Dan, I could not get your link to work for me.

   However, this is a problem that most of us who do custom work have to face, and it mostly comes down to salesmanship. If you have been at this long enough to have established a reputation, and or a recognizable style, you can do better than someone whom they come to with a picture which they took from a magazine.

   If they have looked around, it has gotten to where I can find nice tables cheaper than I can buy the rough lumber for. Never mind conceiving / drawing /building / finishing / delivering.

   What it boils down to, is selling yourself, and pulling them into the process. It is a good idea to work with them, to find any creativity that they may possess then trying to use that along with your own creativity to guide them into feeling like they had a major ENJOYABLE part in bringing this object into being which ends up fitting in their living space.

   Along with that, it is good and helpful if you can also teach them a language which describes and aesthetic or emotional feelings that said piece should elicit, so when their friends are over, they might enlighten them as to the merits of why they chose to work with such a genius as yourself.

   I wish I could claim to be an expert at following the advice that I am giving you, although I know it to be true, I wish I was better at it myself.

   Lately, I have found myself falling back into more things which can't be done in shops in other parts of the world where the exchange rate favor the customer.

1. 
   danmosheim | May 18, 2009 02:17pm | #4

   HI Keith ... thanks for your response ... sorry about the link. my website is dorsetcustomfurniture.com and on the home page there is a link to my blog with the post. it's a little wordy but i was venting i guess. i agree with you about the salesmanship aspect and the 'story' that goes with the piece as i think that all makes a big difference. i think i'm looking for that pie in the sky resolution where at a certain stage of the design process i can point and say 'this how it works here' .... protect myself from myself so to speak ... thanks again ...
   dan

2. 
   chaim | May 18, 2009 09:10am | #2

   I have to say I can commiserate with you!

   A lot of customers don't see the need to pay a design fee but will want something custom made for them. The truth is on smaller projects I will usually do a quick drawing on paper and if I feel the client is serious I'll then proceed to the next faze of design.

   Now is the part that gets tricky, you've met the client, did you go to them? them to you? are they serious about a buy or are they "jerking you around"? 

   I gained experience and am learning not to spend a lot of time on figuring out a design unless there is a move in the right direction. This is usually after I give a rough "guestimate on the project and get an approving nod (hopefully a down payment too!).

   As far as a policy it varies. Anywhere from paying for a meet with a client which usually goes towards the project if the client hires and signs you on, to first meet is free and you don't meet again unless they sign on with a down payment.

   I guess you must decide how much time (read "money") you are willing to invest in a client before you start to see a positive return!

   I'm also new at this and have the same difficulties but this is the advise I always receive, so with confidence I can pass it along.

   Good luck,

   Chaim

    

3. 
   SgianDubh | May 18, 2009 10:32am | #3

   I couldn't access the link you provided either dan. You might find this discussion at my website useful. Slainte.

   PS. I did find your website easily enough, ie dorsetcustomfurniture.com with an online search and a bit of logic, ie, extrapolating your website name from bits visible in your attempted link. You've done some very good work, but like many of us I understand you are still wrestling with the design fee issue. I have pretty much resolved it and the up-front fee seems to eliminate the time wasters.

   richardjonesfurniture.com

   
   

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   Edited 5/18/2009 3:42 am by SgianDubh

1. 
   danmosheim | May 18, 2009 02:24pm | #5

   hi richard ... now that's what i'm looking for ... good job ... i like your approach and it's a great outline for me to work up into my own words on my own website. it's only been 8 or 10 hours since i posed the question and i've already had people weigh in so it looks like it could get interesting ... it's certainly an occasional thorn in my side, as i'm sure it is for others...i guess we need to do a better job of educating our potential clients. thanks for your response ...dan

   Edited 5/18/2009 7:26 am ET by danmosheim

4. 
   joinerswork | May 18, 2009 03:28pm | #6

   dan,

   I do not charge for an initial visit with a potential customer.  During that visit, I can generally get enough information about what they want to work up an estimate, which I tie to a written description, on a purchase agreement form.  I do not make any drawings until I have received a deposit.  On every one of the few occasions that I have been talked into making a drawing up front, to "clarify" the potential customer's ideas, I have not gotten the job.  In at least some of those cases, I found that the customer had used my drawing to shop around for prices.

   Ray

5. 
   RalphBarker | May 18, 2009 04:11pm | #7

   FWIW, while I'm not in the custom furniture business, I agree with the other comments. One of the most difficult questions facing a business person is when to decline a potential customer. Those who want you to work for free are probably best left to be someone else's headache. If properly educated, reasonable people will understand the amount of time and effort that goes into design, and will be willing to pay a reasonable fee for that work. The contract, of course, should clearly spell out when deposits are forfeited.

6. 
   oldusty | May 18, 2009 05:26pm | #8

   Dan ,

          I have only read this thread not the blog and such but ,,,

        I do my business in person and not on the Internet I can't comment on that.

       Most , not all of my potential clients have been referred from others , but in any case I meet for the first fact finding meet free , and it  can be 1 to 2 hours depending on the project .

       In over 27 years of custom work I have never charged a fee to sell a job.

        Sometimes you have to meet 27 times to get a job that will last 6 months .

       I do on occasion ad a line item in my bid under HF/ hassle factor , you could say I get paid for my time one way or another I give a complete finished price not a broken down itemized invoice so let your conscious be your guide.

      When you are in business you need to include a portion of your time directly into overhead where you are not being productive in the shop but looking talking or otherwise maybe getting more work or not .

     It's part of our job , back to the first meet , I do try and educate the client to be able to make intelligent  decisions , but never talk too technical or allow the client to become (technically involved) that's why they hire us.

    I will make a pencil sketch with some numbers while there , if it is simple I get back with a price . On more involved jobs where multiple drawings and meetings will be needed is the area I think you are talking about .

    Setting your terms up front is one way , clearly there would be no misunderstanding , but some folks may balk at paying at this stage . The other factor is your market and how many others are bidding on the same project.

     I go out of my way to accommodate and design to suit the needs of my clients ,I make their job very important , that's what locks us in with them they can't get that attitude from all.

    No drawings leave my possession until some committeeman $ has been exchanged .Yes, they do take them and shop you to death on a rare occasion but those were not the folks we wanted to work for really .

             regards          dusty

    

   
   

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   Edited 5/18/2009 10:29 am ET by oldusty

7. 
   forestgirl | May 18, 2009 05:37pm | #9

   Dan, re: the difficulty of opening your posted link...you don't need to put the html code in, as the forum software does that on its own.  Those [url] tags messed up the code.  Here's a clean link:

   http://dorsetcustomfurniture.blogspot.com/2009/05/to-deisgn-fee-or-not-to-design-fee.html     You can go back and edit your post to remove the errant text.  Be sure you don't leave a punctuation mark or anything other stray character within the liink.

   Another tip:  for long url's like that one, you can make a hyperlink, also without having to type the html code.  When you're composing your message, look at the formatting bar (with the B, I, U, etc.) toward the end you will see an icon that is a globe with a chain link.  OK, highlight the words you want to hyperlink (for example, "my blog"), a box will pop up (or Internet Explorer will ask for permission to allow a scripted window; say yes, then click the globe again).

   When the box comes up, paste the url in.  Voila!! you have a hyperlink.  For instance: your blog.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   
   

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   Edited 5/18/2009 10:38 am by forestgirl

8. 
   Cincinnati | May 18, 2009 10:55pm | #10

   Here's the correct link:

    

   http://dorsetcustomfurniture.blogspot.com/2009/05/to-deisgn-fee-or-not-to-design-fee.html

   Greg

   •••••••

   Exo 35:30-35

9. 
   danmosheim | May 31, 2009 04:57pm | #11

   I have drafted a 'new design fee' policy and, after a little more consideration and perhaps some more comments (thank you all who commented) I will post it to my website ... for more info and comments from other woodworkers on another forum, visit my dorset custom furniture blog
   Here's my draft policy ... I welcome more input ... thanks ... dan

   Design Fee Policy

   Over the years I have always considered the interpreting of my customers’ ideas, both potential and repeat customers, part of my job description, and, unless it was obviously going to be a major undertaking, (a library, a large entertainment center, a kitchen) a free service to them. In the past most of my customers came to me by word of mouth with some background from the person who referred them to me and this ‘free design’ policy was a fine one. With the rise of the internet as a referral tool, more and more people come to us, (thankfully), but with no introduction and no in person visit to our shop where they can plainly see the nature and scope of our business. As a result, sometimes the design process has the potential to get out of hand as it’s very easy to say, ‘I’d like an estimate on a coffee table sort of like this, but maybe like that … Nooooo.. that’s not what I had in mind …. ‘ in an email. I recently had a 34 email exchange with a potential client regarding a small project that sucked up an unbelievable amount of my time. It was a ‘rush’ job and I always thought I was just ‘one more email’ away from the resolution of it. I was so sure I even made sample inlays in abalone and mother-of-pearl before receiving a nickel from them. (WHAT WAS I THINKING?) Anyway, the process came to an ugly end and left me pondering how best to avoid this in the future. After a little more consideration, I will be probably be posting this policy to my website and will refer potential new clients to it if it seems appropriate.

   Here’s what I’ll do for free :

   Have a meeting or two of reasonable length, say an hour or so, at my shop or at their house close by …. No Charge …. More than ½ hour travel time from my shop, meetings MAY involve travel time reimbursement. The client will be informed in advance and the charge will be assessed at my discretion, probably depending on how the meeting seems to go.

   Provide concept sketches and one CAD scale drawing … No Charge

   If design is ‘close’ but not finalized, I’ll provided a non binding ESTIMATE of the project’s cost including shipping and installation. No Charge

   If we move on from there without at that time, a formal agreement, I will request a non-refundable, but applied to the total cost, design fee that seems appropriate to the project at hand, most likely a two to four hour fee amount. If that is used up, we probably have a problem and we’ll have to take it from there with a new design fee agreement ….

   I hope this is clear and that it will help both me and my customers to understand that design is not something that happens but is a sometimes complicated and time consuming process. And, time is really all we’ve REALLY got..

1. 
   dkellernc | Jun 01, 2009 12:24am | #12

   Dan - I am not a professional furniture maker, but do sell my work.  One thing I'll add to the discussion is that I make it very clear to a potential client that while they will own the final piece, they will not own the design, which I will retain the copyright to.  For that reason, I don't provide someone with an electronic drawing of any sort - a single paper copy is all they get, and there's a clear posting on the drawing that it is copyrighted and may not be reproduced.

   That may not stop all (unscrupulous) persons from building to the drawing after the client has "shopped around", but it has helped in a few instances when a potential client has called back wanting an electronic copy, and in one instance, the construction drawings that supplemented the 3/4 isometric view (I don't provide construction drawings).

   I avoid the question of paying for the design time by giving a customer a firm price for the piece based on a detailed sketch with dimensions, with 1/2 of the final cost due up front, non-refundable.  The remainder is due at delivery (actually, before delivery - I've been stiffed before, and suing someone to get a piece back out of their house is not my idea of a productive activity).