To Domino or Not to Domino? That is the question…
In a recent post about a chisel morticer, the question of the Domino was raised.
I have no issues with floating tenons – my introduction to woodworking was with the New Yankee Workshop, Norm and his biscuits. I love biscuits for alignment, but hardly ever use them for strength (except in MDF butt joints, then they rock)
The Domino costs NZD 2000 more or less, depending on the version. Hollow chisel morticers (HCM) cost between NZD 500 and 2000 for the cheap and nasty to fairly respectable range.
Some questions then, for those who make more joints than I:
1. If money was no object, but you could NOT have BOTH – would you have a Domino, or a Chisel morticer, and why? if the HCM, which one and why? (see q4 though- which is a variant on the theme)
2. How do HCM cope with through mortices?
3. Mechanically, I can see no advantage for mortice and tenon over domino joints. I have not had much luck finding reliable comparisons – have you? IMHO by the time a Domino joint fails, the whole piece would be scrap for all sorts of other reasons, but am I wrong?
4. You can buy either a Domino OR the HCM and a set of high end chisels for the exact same price, which would YOU go for?
5. In a non-production shop, is the additional accuracy possible with a power tool worth the money?
For context, I am soon to make a bed. My wife tells me I am going to anyway, so I suppose I am. I love accuracy above all else, but don’t really mind chopping mortices. I could of course use traditional joinery, but I can also justify a new tool as the bed will cost NZD 5000 less to make myself than to buy, given that I have to make it in expensive wood. I would only buy a new tool if it would mean I got a stronger, better joint AND it was quick. I’m thinking Domino beats morticer but have changed my mind after advice on this forum before and been happy with it.
Replies
I have the Domino 500, the smaller of the two machines. I have a floor model Powermatic HCM. I use the Powermatic far more than the Domino. It's about how I like to work, and when I start a project I just end up using more traditional joiner. I'm not a professional.
Mortise and tenons joints have tested stronger than Dominos, but I think Dominos are usually strong enough.
I owned a bench top mortise, and it was crap. The Powermatic with the x-y table is far better to work with, and built far better. Don't waste your money on a benchtop model. Unless you build mostly small items, I wouldn't recommend the Domino 500, either. The 700 is more suited to more woodworking tasks.
For me, the drawback to Dominos is their width. They have a great variety of thicknesses and lengths, but are very limited in width. There are ways to work around that limitation, but in many instances it's a real drawback. With a mortise and tenons, I can make them exactly however wide, thick, or deep that I want.
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I own a Powermatic 701 Benchtop Mortiser and it is not crap. If I had the space I would have bought the same mortiser as John_C2, but that was not an option. I do not own a Domino and I see no need for this in my shop. I'm not a professional furniture maker, so speed is not necessary. So to question 1 & 4, I would go with the HCM. With the benchtop model, I have run into only a few issues. I did build all 28 of the interior and exterior doors in my house with this machine. It allows me to create a 1/2" thick, 6" long, and 3"deep mortise where the rails and stiles meet in a 1 3/8 thick piece of white oak with perfect precision. There are some size limitations and of the 12 mortises in a door, 1 is cut by hand. I did have to tune up the HCM before I used it to get it to cut true, but I have not adjusted it since, which was over 5 years ago and having cut hundreds of mortises. While I love my benchtop HCM, if I had the space I would buy the floor model.
Question 2: The answer is flawlessly. You have to cut from both sides and if it is a high show area, I will knife and chisel the edges before using the HCM. Most of my furniture is Arts & Crafts/Craftsman, so I cut many through mortises. With some wedges and guides, I can also cut angled mortises easily. It is a very adaptable machine.
Question 3: For equal size MT and domino joints, the difference in strength is likely negligible. That said, I can easily make a MT joint much larger and better designed to give me significantly more strength. I will go back to my entry door example. Most of my doors weigh about 75- 100 lbs. The door joints are all loading in bending, which generates large stresses in the joints. For a door to sag or come out of square, two things need to happen. First, the tenon needs to pull slightly out of the mortise. Having a large edge grain to edge grain glue area allows better resistance. Also, on my doors I actually create a press fit in the load bearing joints to slightly precompress the wood fibers in the tenon. With seasonal variation in size, I reduce the risk of the joint opening between the wall of the mortise and the side of the tenon. The second thing that needs to happen for a door to sag is compression of the top edge of the tenon and associated edge of the mortise. The longer the tenon, the less stress there is. Less stress equals less compression. A domino is limited in mortise depth, but with my HCM and a through mortise, I can get a little over 6" deep. How strong is this joint? My front door is 42 x 70 x 2 1/4 inches of white oak with a massive piece of stain glass and another piece of insulated glass. This beast weighs close to 300 lbs and I used 6" through mortises. There is no sag in the door after 4 years. I doubt a domino could ever support this. My joint is larger than a domino joint so it is not a true comparison, but my HCM allows me to make the joint I need.
Question 5: YES, YES, YES. I can't say it enough. I use my HCM all the time. I use it for alignment on complex glue ups. I use it on all my doors so I don't need to keep them in clamps while the glue dries. Making cabinet doors that are perfectly flat and square is a joy and the fitting becomes effortless.
I built furniture for 15 years before I purchased my HCM and it has changed my work process and drastically improved the quality of the work I do. It has expanded the ability of my shop greatly.
I hope this helps
1. If money was no object, but you could NOT have BOTH – would you have a Domino, or a Chisel mortiser, and why? if the HCM, which one and why? (see q4 though- which is a variant on the theme)
I made the choice after struggling with mortising attachments on a drill press then dedicated machines, which seem to be impossible to get working right unless you pay for a very good model. Even then the things can be a bit temperamental.
I bought both versions of the Domino machine instead. I find them much more versatile and easier to use as the machine goes to the work not the other way around. They're also very quick and easy to set up and don't develop glitches like mortisers and their chisels seem to. They're extremely accurate if used properly.
2. How do HCM cope with through mortices?
Don't know.
3. Mechanically, I can see no advantage for mortise and tenon over domino joints. I have not had much luck finding reliable comparisons – have you? IMHO by the time a Domino joint fails, the whole piece would be scrap for all sorts of other reasons, but am I wrong?
I haven't seen direct comparisons either, let alone meaningful ones. Those magazine tests of various M&T types of joints, rather than the machines, are also suspect, as they don't really test the right thing. They tend to test sheer strength but M&Ts typically fail when the glue joint fails because of the differential expansion/contraction of the internals of the joint over time and humidity changes. They're not really subject to regular or high sheer forces in most furniture joints. Field gates are maybe ...... but furniture may, at worst, be subject to mild racking forces if dragged across a rough floor.
Dominoes are typically tighter i' the joint interface than traditional M&Ts because the dominoes swell once glue is applied and they're stuck in their slots. Traditional M&Ts don't do this really as they have to have perfect fit to go together .... although some lads do peen the tenon with a flat-face hammer to squish a slightly oversize tenon so it will go in the mortise then expand again once in place with plenty of wet glue on it.
4. You can buy either a Domino OR the HCM and a set of high end chisels for the exact same price, which would YOU go for?
Domino, mainly because it always works easily accurately, with no glitches and it's portable. Even for traditional through tenons, it's not hard to make the domino mortise square in the corners, with a chisel or even a small flush-cut saw.
5. In a non-production shop, is the additional accuracy possible with a power tool worth the money?
It depends on what you want to achieve. I've made many hand-cut M&Ts to get the hand made look, even if the M&Ts are not quite as perfect as a domino joint. Drawboring them or wedging them can make them more than strong enough even if the internal fit is not as close as that of a Domino. Chopping mortises and cutting tenons can be therapeutic and also instructive of one's real character. :-)
Lataxe
Thank you so much for the comprehensive answers, which have of course not helped in the slightest!
I have done well following @johnC2's advice in the past but the domino is so compact. It also looks like a plate jointer so is an invisible blob as far as the wife is concerned. There's no way I'll smuggle a floor morticer into the shop down my trousers!
It may come down to a coin-toss in the end.
Or a nice present for the boss...
Sounds like you might have already made your decision, but I figure I’ll chime in anyway even though you’ve gotten some pretty good answers.
I have the larger domino and a floor mortiser and use them both frequently, but in different ways.
When I’m working out in the field on houses doing trim carpentry the obvious answer is the domino. It’s fast, accurate, and is suitable for moderately strong joints. It’s tough to beat for its size and portability.
For shop work consisting of furniture and light millwork, I prefer a hollow chisel mortiser. It can be a little more time consuming to set up at first, but once set up for a task it can repeat that task again and again very quickly. I firmly believe a true mortiser and tenon to be stronger than a floating tenon, but whether you require the extra strength is dependent on what you build. I use the domino in the shop a lot for alignment of parts and creating quick offsets, but would choose a mortiser in a shop setting if I had to choose one.
I wouldn’t want to be without either though, and am actually getting ready to add a horizontal slot mortiser to the mix, so it’s a slippery slope! Good luck!
Actually Bob, you make an excellent point. In the end, which do you want?
I started off with a mortiser and years later bought the Domino simply because I wanted it. If you have large projects the Domino is not going to work. If you make small projects it will be fast and easy.
So, again, which do YOU want?
I have enjoyed reading this thread...
I don't have the space for two of anything, and am often in the position of second-purposing one tool to do something I'd prefer to do on a designated machine. Given my space constraints, the Domino 500 was my choice several years ago, and I've learned to accommodate its shortcomings as a large-mortise - it's not: I double-up the thickness with side-by-side cuts, I'll use the wide setting, and make tenons to match; I'll use a router if I need extra depth; if I need a stronger joint, I'll use a tougher wood as the tenon (making my own tenon) - during 8 years of use and abuse, I've never had a Domino joint fail. Frankly, if there is that much stress on the joint, I'll engineer a better solution, to take the joint out of harm's way.
This is what we do as woodworkers.
Having said this, I defer to those individuals who have owned and project-test HCMs, and been able to compare them directly to the Domino.
For my money and shop-space, I'd rather upgrade to the larger Domino than trying to force a square chisel through Hard Maple or Rhodesian Teak.
re #5, I do everything from small turnings and boxes to mid to large furniture.
I never usually do the same thing twice though.
Currently on the bench:
Balustrade (mostly turned) for the wife's tack shed
Christmas ornaments
Skirting board to match existing profile (Thankfully just a chamfer though in wood so wide you can't get it any more...)
Next projects are:
1. bookcase style set of display shelves (these are dovetailed and dadoed)
2. Queen size bed
3. Pair of slightly undersize garage doors.
4. Gazebo
5. Assembly table for the shop
As you can see an ecelctic mix. I probably can't afford either this month anyway due to COVID but cutting the mortices for the bed and garage doors by hand is unappealing to me and the savings vs purchase are huge. I like to knock a project out fast as I work long hours so have little energy to do much on weekdays.
I have 2 benchtop HCMs, a Delta and a Jet, and also the smaller domino. Since receiving the domino as a gift (a friend's project I refused payment on) I rarely use the HCMs. If I had to give one up I think I would keep the domino just for the ease of bringing the tool to the task vs bringing the stock to the machine.
I have both a floor model mortiser and a Domino.
Truthfully I view the Domino as a souped up biscuit jointer, I mostly use it for hidden joinery such as an end cabinet side.
Knowing what I know now, I would go with a horizontal mortiser .
I have a Domino 500 and it is a nice little, although expensive mortising tool. You are paying for speed. I can, and have for years before the Domino, done mortises with a router and a Mortise Pal for edges-and-ends or shop made jig for 'middle of panel' mortises.
An HCM would be a great addition to my shop but, I have used the router for so long that I am very comfortable doing that. The Domino comes out when I have to make a batch of similar or equally spaced mortises or when I am doing work with sheet goods which isn't often other than shop fixtures.
I would not consider one a replacement for the other any more than I would want a guided saw system instead of a tablesaw. That is, similar functions but, not substitutes for each other. Determine what you will do most and then choose based on that.
I recently was in this exact quandary. I was designing and building a hutch and had planned to use dominos. It became too complicated to think about it all, especially with the conversions to mm's with the domino I have. I just needed to see it all layed out because I was improvising a little bit. After a lot of internal debate I just went ahead and bought the powermatic. After the setup and first use I was immensely relieved and realized it's something I'll never regret having and worth the money.
You said you are going to make a bed. I'm thinking Western style with headboard and footboard.
Large pieces is where the Domino (either size) really excels. You bring the tool to the large workpiece instead of trying to figure out how to support a large workpiece and accurately place it while using a stationary tool.
Plus you can get breakdown joinery with the Domino.
I have estimated "cost per joint" and the domino is just not cost-effective for me. Especially when you consider the ongoing costs of Domino inserts. I make a lot of furniture, but not a production shop for sales.
@ user-4622261 I just make my own Domino stock out of scraps from the piece I am making. Typical imperial round-over bits and a bit of fence distance manipulation are close enough for tight fitting Dominoes in practical use. I always have Domino stock leftover and now have quite a collection of various sizes.
I'm not a rabid Festool fan, anything but, and I do not want to talk anyone into going down the Domino road. If you already have one however, I have never bought pre-made Dominoes. They are just too easy to make.
I have had both a Powermatic 719T HCM floor model with their chisel set and a Domino 500. For me when I build tables, chairs(non Windsor) work benches, or other furniture that requires larger through mortice & tenons the HCM rules. The Powermatic has been reliably accurate and repeatable after initial setup. I do not have experience with bench top models, my floor model has no issues cutting 3/4" mortises in hard wood if the chisel are kept sharp. When doing kitchens and built in cabinetry or simple book cases I use the the Domino 500. It is fast, accurate, easy to use and plenty strong enough. I would say if you want to use a Domino for everything including doors then I would go with the 700. It is a pretty big investment for a hand held power tool - it is equal or greater cost than a decent brand name mid range floor model HCM. Its Dominos can be over twice the length of the 500. You can go down to the the smallest domino of the 500 with adapters. It's a big tool so it is not as easy to maneuver as the 500 is.
If I had to do it over and only could have one - well thats tough but I probably would do the the Domino 700 because I could conceivably do everything I need to without much compromise.
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