To Festool or not to Festool???
ChestnutWwking
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hello again!
I just want some feed back on this Festool craze! I have what seems like a million reviews over these tools and no one has anything bad to say about them. Do I take the plunge? I primarily make boxes – cabinets – of all shapes and sizes and this equipment seems to be the way to go for a small shop or one man operation. Here’s the bottom line – I already have a good amount of money sunk into “conventional” tools and so in order to outfit my shop in Festool I’m looking at $3000-4000. I approach woodworking as a hobby and second income and so I know trying to get this past my ever-understanding wife will be a challenge.
Back to original statement – Make the investment or not? Need help here.
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
Want help rationalizing? Sure.
If you do this as a paying hobby, why not? They seem to be great tools and you can offload some of the tools they will be replacing to ease the pain.
Nothing wrong with using good quality tools to do something you enjoy.
Besides if you do commit and really get buyers remorse you can sell them and get most of your money back. They seem to hold their value and since they are in demand right now I don't think you'll have any problem selling them.
I'm convinced on their circular saw, I think the plunger design is worth it if you're cutting down sheet goods. Its just too bad they aren't more readily available for inspection.
My point exactly. I would love to be able to try them before they are shipped to my house. Nothing I hate worse than boxing something up and sending it back at my cost.
I was in the same position as you are. I've built a nice shop over the years and have a full complement of tools (is there anything like that?!). A woodworking friend of mine had been bugging me for two years that I should get into Festool, and that it would change my woodworking. For the same reasons as you, I was resisting.
Then one day I splurged, and got a package - smaller plunge saw and midsize dust extractor - and a sander that happened to be on a first-time-Festool-buyer try-out promo at the time. I quickly understood why people go on about Festool. It truly is a system, and the stuff works well together. The results are very satisfactory. By the way, a few minor accessories are essential.
Now I am looking out for the Festool router (the smallest of the three has a real nice feel to it), and perhaps the jig saw. And who knows what else.
So, you can’t go wrong with Festool. To spend the $’s or not is a tough one. I am a tool junky, and usually end up getting stuff I want. I have bought my share of useless things. Festool stuff while pricey, is not among those.
Could you list your recommended accessories and how long have you been using the equipment? How often do you use them?Thanks,
Alfred,
I'm genuinely interested in your opinion and not trying to attack your decision or defend mine. Are these tools:
1. Sufficiently better in that that they reduce the amount of time to perform the same tasks that other "conventional" tools would require.
2. Do they produce superior results, ie the cuts are better or more accurate given the same operator attention to detail?
3. Is the setup time reduced?
4. Do they provide DC at the source that is not otherwise available with conventional DC hookups?
I have not tried these tools and I have been impressed by the testimonials of others but they rarely say why they are better in terms of what advantages does it bring to the shop/project. I too am fortunate to have most everything I need in the shop. I carefully research my purchases and try to buy the tool that will perform the task correctly and efficiently without going over the top on brand and price on the theory that it must be better because it cost more.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Doug
Adastra: Off the top of my head: for the dust extractor I got the hook that helps to hang the hose on it. I got a 3000mm (+-10’) guide for the saw. For the guide I got the little end cap that keeps the hose and power cable from snagging. Also got a pair of clamps for the guide. The guide stays in place due to the strips on the underside intended for the purpose, but the clamps are useful. I skipped the accessory kit which has all kinds of neat things, because I am trying to be more judicious about buying tools. Can’t remember anything else. May have covered it. I have had the stuff about a year, and use it about as often as I woodwork. Sometimes that is frequent, sometimes not so.
Doug: Your questions taken in the spirit intended. Answers:1. Hard to say for me, because with these tools I am doing stuff that was not possible for me previously.2. The cuts are astoundingly superior – clean and accurate. My application has been largely in ply wood, some boards. Sanding with the RO is clean, and it is efficient.3. I can locate precisely where I want the cut by marking two points, lining up the guide, running the saw. Done. So arguably, I can cut as accurately as I can draw.4. The DC alone makes these tools useful for me. My shop is in the basement. I used to hate sanding with the RO because of all the mess, and breathing all the dust. The Festool RO+DC combination is amazing. With the saw, a couple of times for a single quick cut I skipped hooking up the DC hose. It helped me realize how efficiently the DC was grabbing the dust. When you see some of the promo links to reviews, somebody talks of only getting a little puff of dust with the saw. I found that to be true.Hope this helps.
Thanks Alfred. I will be curious to what others have to say.
Doug
Edited 3/31/2005 5:31 pm ET by Doug
Hi guys . . . a favored subject.There seem to be two camps on Festool, those who have used them and those who have not. I must have spent about five years thinking about it, and have spent a few years using most of their lineup, but it only took me about 15 minutes post-purchase to realize I had made a great decision and discovered a new way to think and feel about the tools I use every day.I don't know what happened, but Festool is now all over the web. I guess a critical mass of people who have used the tools has accumulated, and I expect their sales to double quarterly. You buy one, you buy another, your friends buy them . . . .The whole tool user experience is different and you find you can do things with hand tools that you never dreamed possible . . . and get shop-quality results in the field. The difficulty in deciding to take the plunge is that the specs are not much different than on other tools; the blades are not bigger, the motors not stronger, the tools not lighter, and so there is no way to understand it on paper. At the same time, the tools are A LOT more expensive than the brands we are used to. Who wants to feel like a sucker buying a tool that costs twice the price of reasonable options? However, if you buy the plunge saw or the planer, you will immediately realize that everything else you ever used was a compromise. These tools don't do anything you can't do with porter cable circular saw, bosh jig saw, or makita planer . . . . but the results are just way different using these tools. You pay more, but you get more, and the rate of return makes them a bargain without question.If you are not bored by my over-long post I would be happy to answer any questions.
OK, I'll bite.Whats so great about the planer? Keep in mind I don't own one of these at all so I have never been convinced of the usefullness of even a $30 cheapie. I build furniture and while I've thought of getting one at times it I've never been in the middle of a project and thought how much time I would save if I had one.Uses?Thanks.I'm eyeing the circular saw system, I'm sold on that really being a better design. And I'm close on the sander, but my Porter Cable orb hooked to an automatic vacuum works pretty well.
Mike,
I don't own any Festool products, nor do I plan to purchase any. No doubt they have some good features, but I've got a shop full of tools that work just great. Another Forum has a lot of people who have been buying Festool and they don't hesitate showing them off, but I get the impression from some of them that they have more dollars than sense and just like to prove to the next guy that theirs is bigger.
The talent of the craftsperson is the only thing that matters. Having the most expensive tools doesn't make your products any better than those from anyone else.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
While some need to buy the most expensive toy to show off, I buy Festool because it makes me more effective. I started out with the sanders because I hate dust. Although sanding still isn't my favorite, the Festool sanders are cleaner, faster and use less sandpaper than others. The sanders are extremely well built and have sealed bearings so they should last well past the three year warranty. In fact my Rotex 150 came with an extra dust seal, because countertop installers where wearing out the seals.
So after using the dustless sander, I thought if this works so well I wonder how well the plunge saw works. As expected it is cleaner, more accurate and safer than my PC saw. With the guides I can rip sheet goods accurately and only have to expose as little of the blade as possible.
Now comes the bad part (the addiction to Festool)- after spending an afternoon routing and then cleaning up, I thought I wonder how their routers are. So I ordered one as well. It hasn't come yet, but I expect that it should be great.
But the greatest tool they make, and rarely talked about, is the vacuum. It has about twice the suction of a shop vac, doesn't fall over, stores the tool boxes, autostarts when you turn on the tool and isn't that loud. In my opinion it makes all the tools better. In fact, in makes my Dewalt and PC tools better too.
Sure you have to spend more money up front, but in the long run I expect to save money. I'll let you know in ten years.Kevin
I did not not get one but tried the 'carpenters?' saw with the guide and dust collector at a local Woodcraft store.. REALLY REALLY nice...
But then again my really old Craftsman still runs OK!
I assure you that I didn’t purchase a Festool saw to impress anybody; I work alone in my shop so there isn’t anyone to impress in the first place. My main reason for buying the saw was safety. More and more of my projects seems to revolve around using MDF and plywoods that are packed full of all kinds of glues and who knows what types of chemicals. Anyway, I purchased the Festool saw because of how well it works with a vacuum and also the plunge feature. The only other saw that I considered was a Porter cable 424MAG and although it has a vacuum attachment, the hose will either go over your hand or off the side of the saw—neither one is a very good option. Also, I don’t know of any other saws with the plunge feature—also a major safety feature.
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I see plenty of guys out there who obviously don’t care too much about safety (for example, they don’t wear safety glasses or hearing protection). The choice is yours, but I’m planning to continue with this hobby until they put me in the box and until that day comes I want keep my vision, my hearing, and all ten fingers—thank you very much.
<<I don't own any Festool products, nor do I plan to purchase any>>
Well, Bill, I guess that makes you an expert on Festool tools...
I have Delta, PC, DeWalt, etc- and Festool tools.
I bought the Festool AT55 circular saw and the 1400 router because they were a good value. I work alone, and it is difficult for me to handle large sheet goods. The AT55 with its guide system makes it relatively easy to size sheet goods. The cut is very smooth, accurate and has almost no tear out. If I save a few panels of hardwood veneer plywood in a year, that will MORE than make up for the price difference.
As for the router, in addition to be well made, it is very accurate both in depth and using the guide system. I often make bookcases with the shelves held in place with sliding dovetails. The very accurate depth and guide system allows me to do this easily- I plow a dado with a straight bit to setup, then the dovetail. The last thing I want to do after hand cutting through dovetails into a cherry or maple carcass, is to have a pile of expensive fire wood because the sliding dovetails are not true. You can get the same results using other tools and methods- but it is easier and more reproducible using the Festool.
Given the quality of the tools and their superior dust handing capabilities, I think the price is justifed. I have plenty of tools made by other manufacturers that are very good (the PC 7538 in my router table is an example), or that I use for noncritical tasks (my old B&D cordless drill). I buy Festool when I think they will save me time and consumables, and because I think the quality is high.
<<they have more dollars than sense and just like to prove to the next guy that theirs is bigger>>
I keep my tools in my workshop, not on my coffee table. The only way anyone knows what I use is when they look at my work and ask me what I used and why.
Glaucon
"... Well, Bill, I guess that makes you an expert on Festool tools... "
I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything -- but I'm darned good at common sense. If you or someone else has the expendable funds to put into whatever cost of tool you want, then go for it. Just quit trying to convince everyone else that your purchase makes better furniture. It doesn't! Some of the finest pieces in existence have come from nothing but hand tools or crude, elementary power tools. You will not and cannot make better furniture with higher priced tools. I can probably make the same cuts on sheet goods with my Craftsman circular saw (with a good blade) and a straightedge (plywood usually). The only difference is my power tool is black and yours is green.
I worked in a commercial, high-end cabinet shop for a year and a half. One of the guys who came on board a few months after I did had everything you could think of in the way of power and hand tools. If his investment in personal tools wasn't well into the 10's of $1,000's, I'd be surprised. It took two trips in a pickup truck for him to get all of his stuff transferred to the shop. Another guy (who helped train me on shop procedures) could gather up most of his assortment of basic tools and take them home in a standard tool box. Guess which one was the most productive? And, since you might not be able to guess, it's the guy with more talent than tools.
I've got a garage full of tools that a few professionals have seen and are envious. I've got them because I've used my funds based on price/value rather than the 'mine is more expensive than yours' formula. Expensive tools don't make better furniture -- talent does! And, Lord willing, I'll live long enough to develop my talent to the level to which I aspire.
Warmest Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
To your point that good furniture can be made with plain vanilla tools- I agree. The work is a reflection of the skill of the woodworker- Duncan Phyfe, Sheraton and Hepplewhite didn't have access to Festool- or Delta for that matter.
As to your point (I think) that there is no reason to buy Festool over a less expensive tool, I disagree.
I would not replace every tool that I have with its Festool equivalent, but I would consider buying Festool if I needed to replace or obtain a tool. The R1400 router is an example. I paid $335 for it, perhaps ~$75-100 more than a PC equivalent. But, I think it is better made, has several features that I value that are not available in other models and has a very convenient and accurate depth adjustment. For my purposes, those extra features and not any "status" considerations are worth the additional cost.
I use a Starett square, because although it is more expensive, it is easy to read and is consistently reviewed as more accurate than cheaper alternatives. Considering the amount of cuts that I have made with it, it probably paid for itself in the first couple of months.
I think that you can over spend on tools- but it depends on what you're using them for. I have a 1960 Craftsman jack plane that I recently fettled- and it works very well. But I like my LN 4 1/2 for finsh work. I don't own any Bridge City tools because I don't think the significant additional cost adds much to their bottom line usefulness (although I haven't had a chance to use them, I haven't heard any convincing arguments to merit the $$$). So I have a price point- for some things a moderate priced tool will do, for others a more expensive tool may be justified, for still others the extra cost is hard to justify.
One of the reasons that Festool or Fein are gaining converts is their quality (and warranty: 3 years) are better than many other brands. There are many threads about issues with DeWalt and other once highly respected brands. As B&D buys up more and more of these brands, there is a real concern that quality will suffer. A number of contractors that I know will pay more for a tool that they find to be well made and reliable. So, I will hang on to my older, well made tools, but when I have to replace them I will consider Festool.
Regards,
Glaucon
hey everybody,
i'm new to this forum, but ive been making high-end furniture for high-end folks for high-end years.......hehe. anyway, here's what i'll say, as someone who bought a few festools a year ago and just bought many more....i do this stuff for a living. not to criticize surgeons that take up woodworking or anything....thats a cool phenomenon isnt it?...buying festools isnt "just a look at my tool!!" phenomenon, if you ask me. for me, a professional woodworker, these tools just make me happy everyday. its that simple. they're a litttle bit more expensive, and a little bit to a big bit better. this is not magic. its not gonna make up for anybody's lack of brain power. but these tools have been a pleasure to use, for me. i love not fighting my tools. there's no need to replace everything you own, get a festool. check it out. tell me it doesnt make you grin......i've used everything. these are just nice. like when i made a cut in some plywood in my kitchen that rivaled anything i ever achieved in the shop......, oh, yeah, with no dust...i bet that one cool impact of these tools will be to force other companies to step up their game a bit. good for us.
ev,
A man after my own heart.
Isn't that what it's all about, the smile that comes accross your face when you pick up a beautiful piece of machinery and the fact that you are doing something that you truly love to do.
I only recently started using Festool; but this system has completely changed my attitude about the tools I use for work. I was really fed up with dewalt, makita, bosch etc.
I've read the posts about the high cost of Festool, and I was in that camp at one time; but, being on the job with a guy who had the entire system, made a convert out of me. " I saw the Light". When I questioned him about the high cost of the tools, he told me that maybe I should just buy Black & Decker.
So, to the guys who think I buy Festool to show off, maybe you should just buy DeWalt, Delta, Porter Cable or Black & Decker and think about how happy you are when you pick it up.
Anyway, the bottom line is, I've raised my prices 50% since I started using Festool and people still ask me if I've charged them enough. Go figure.
Stef
Two basic reasons to buy a (fancy) tool:
<To fill the (proverbial) void that should be occupied by your mind>
How about: because it's the best tool for the job?
I don't have an ark full of tools- just the ones I need and will use. If I see a tool that I need that is well made and designed, I'll buy it. Than I'll use it and not worry about whether it will last, or need to be replaced or if its up to the job. One less thing to fret about. If spending more for something well made makes me an elitist, well, it's not keeping me up nights.
Glaucon
Well I have a question or two about Festool as well. Does anyone think the saw and guide could replace a table saw. It seems to me with the Festool system you get out the tape, make a mark on both ends of the board or panel, align the guide and cut. To make repeat cuts requires this measure, mark, align, cut sequence every time with accuracy depending on your marks and guide placement. So for making a cabinet one would essentially be spending quite a bit of time measuring and marking. I think I'd rather set the table saw fence and go, knowing each piece which must be absolutely identicle, are. The benefits seem quite apparent for working in the field, but in a shop I just don't know. It definitely has it's place where it's obviously a fantastic system, but is it really the table saw replacement do all cutting system of the woodworking world both owners and Festool insinuate it to be?
-Mike
<Does anyone think the saw and guide could replace a table saw.>
I think that overstates it a bit. My own take is that the Festool saw/guide is more accurate than its competitors, but it doesn't replace a table saw. I have used it to accurately rip boards in the field, but that's a job that is easier to do on a table saw.
Where I find it very useful is in cutting sheets to size- for example, hardwood veneered plywood. There is very little tear out and it is easier to cut up a 4 x 8 sheet with the Festool. There are some final cuts that are easier to make with the Festool than on a table saw. It is also a very good saw for finish carpentry, although for some tasks, e.g crown moldings, a compound miter is better.
If you have a circular saw that you are happy with, I would not junk it and buy a Festool. But if you are in the market for a new circular saw, I think the accuracy, quality and versatility of the Festool warrants a serious look. If you are just going to use the saw for framing, a Festool is overkill. But if you are dealing with sheet goods, cabinets or finish carpentry, I think the Festool is a good bet.
Glaucon
If you are mainly interested in the saw guide and not the whole Festool lineup, you should give the EZ Smart system a serious look. The guide is more rigid than the Festool. It gives splinter free cuts in veneer plywood. You can save a lot of money vs. a Festool.
I have had mine for about 6 months now and can't say enough good about it.
It is great for cutting sheet goods. Also very handy for tapers. The cut table they sell is excellent as well - not just for cutting, but, also for assembly of face frames with pocket screws.
Seriously, give them a look http://www.eurekazone.com/ many of the guys at Breaktime have also purchased this system and are equally pleased with the results.
>Yup, this goes under "to provide your mind with the space to occupy".<
I'm not sure what you mean by this (not sure you know what you mean, either).
Glaucon
Either I'm an idiot or you are. I don't understand what you mean and you won't explain it.
Stef
Well Metod, now I understand. I'm the one with the small mind, because I think that having a variety of tools will help me do a better job. And you are the one with the large mind who thinks that just having a few tools (the cheaper the better, we can't get too fancy) is good enough.
DOH, I am an idiot for not recognizing your genius.
>DOH, I am an idiot for not recognizing your genius<
Not to worry- there is quite a crowd of us unenlightened blokes. Metod is too obtuse to be truly obnoxious, but he shows promise...
I don't criticize other WWs tool purchases, and I am tired of listening to the self appointed few who do. If someone wants to have both a #4 and a #4 1/2 smoothing plane, who is it hurting? If he likes to collect handplanes, why shouldn't he- people collect all sorts of stuff- if they pay for it, it doesn't cost me a thing. I may even benefit from their experience with a tool...
Those constipated rocket surgeons who like to pass judgement on this sort of thing should get a life. If someone asks you for advice about what too they should buy, give it. If they have already bought a tool that they like and find useful, and you disagree- criticize the tool, not the WW. If you feel compelled to give your world view about someone else's choice and the size of their tiny minds, you need to go up on your medication.
Glaucon
Do you mean small minds or small "heads?" - you know - thinking with the little head not the big one... :-)
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mike,
Festool tools, and just as importantly, the systainers and sortainers fill a void for me. They do things in a way other tools don't.
If you have been reading my exchange with Metod, you can see that there are many different views on the subject.
I can say, that if you do decide to purchase Festool, it won't be your last Festool purchase.
As far as your other tools, Festool isn't the best answer to every situation, just a better one to many. A table saw is much more accurate for ripping when you need a number of pieces the same size. If you are cutting trim, especially crown molding a chop saw is the only way to go.
Don't tell Metod; but, my 1" SDS impact drill is from Harbor Frieght, $59.95 . Looks and works as well as the $300.00 Makita, only difference is the color, Pink.
If you have to do any work in a customers house, Festool is the only way to go. I've made drawer fronts, cut and sanded in the house. No dust. I've even used my Festool power planer with the vac to plane a door in the house, not one chip. The customers love it when I come in the door with a vacuum cleaner, they realize that I care about their house and that I take pride in my work. They also expect to pay more.
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