I’m debating on whether or not to invest in a spray system or to stick with old faithful, the rollers and brushes, for two pieces that I’ll be painting. I haven’t sprayed before so this would be a new adventure for me but I’m not sure if it’s worth the investment. I only have a pancake compressor for the nail guns so I’m not sure if I have enough to run a spray system. What would be the cost for a spray system suited for this application and to be used maybe a few times per year? Will the compressor I have work?
Is using oil based vs. water based paint on furniture a matter of preference? I seem to always find oil based paints on furniture due to the finish and durability but I need some opinions. Should a sanding sealer be used or will a primer coat and mulitple top coats suffice? By the way, if it matters, the pieces are built out of poplar.
Thanks, Brett
Replies
Even if you are just considering getting into spraying, I strongly recommend you purchase Spray Finishing by Andy Charron. It will give you all the info you need about equipment and then, how to use the equipment.
Contrary to what many think, spray finishing needs some knowledge and experience. This book will give you the knowledge and tell you how to practice to develop your experience.
brett,
I have a lot of spray equipment, big compressors, various guns etc.. I've been spraying for decades.. However I've found a way to do nice work without the mess, clean up, and hassle of spraying..
Spraying is a skill requiring more technique and knowledge than brushing. Considering everything while you can cover more area quicker with a spray gun the rest of what's involved takes longer.. (unless you have the space available to dedicate just to spraying)..
I'd suggest that you seriously consider shellac.. I have an overly thinned technique that woirks wonders if like me you are not good with a paint brush and don't like to spend a lot of time on clean up..
The really cool thing is how fast you can have pieces finished compared to every other technique.
If you're interested I'll explain the technique and costs and etc, about shellac..
I'm all ears so please, tell me more. When it comes to finishing, I'm fairly clueless so any insight will be great. See, I thought shellac was only used for staining wood, not for paint also. By the way, is this used with water or oil based paints? Thanks...
bbobo.
No it's shellac. I've been touting it's praises for a long time now..
Shellac is butt simple to do if you over thin it.. You can't make a mistake that can't be fixed quickly and easily..
Forget the flakes and mixing your own stuff that's for unemployed chemistry majors or guys with too much time on their hands.. ;-) (please note the smiley face guys) Buy it already mixed and then read the instructions on the can.. To those instructions add more denatured alcohol than what they suggest.. If you buy a quart of Zinsser's bulleye shellac add 2 quarts of denatured alcohol.
stir and then brush it on..
But wait, before you do, remember this, Never go back over and do it fast!I mean the Indy 500 of painting.. careful is a mistake fast is good..
repeat that! careful is a mistake, fast is good.
Flood it on! Sure it'll run, so what!
yeh, you might miss an area, so what! Flood it on and don't go back..
you see the secret is that shellac melts into the coat below it so it's kinda self leveling..
It will dry in 15 minutes! yeh just 15 minutes, then you can attack it with sand paper.. 220 grit. All you are doing is sanding off the nubs that get raised when you shellaced it.. don't try to level out runs or anything just sand off the nubs.. I figure about a second to a second and a half per bd.ft. (slightly more care on edges and corners etc).. You are sanding to remove those little fibers that got raised up. Nothing more!
If you have some concerns about sanding 3M sells sanding sponges that will keep even pressure on things and not leave the grooves that your fingers will leave using just sand paper..
So now repeat, a really fast coat covering things without going back.. this time I know you'll catch that spot you missed earlier..
in a half an hour you can check and see if you have any nubs left if you do go ahead and sand them off.. usuallly not and don't attempt to "fix" anything, just sand off nubs..
It will take an hour for that coat to dry and now apply the third and final coat same process. Fast! Don't go back over!
OK what's wrong with shellac because it sure was quick and simple to apply wasn't it?
Well shellac isn't good outdoors..
secomnd shellac is affected by three things..
first is water.. but don't worry, water has to sit on it for a long time for a problem to occur.
second is booze.. why are you pouring that good wine or single malt scotch on the wood anyway? You're supposed to drink it not water the wood with it! ;-) Anyway alcohol if quickly wiped up is no big deal
Third ammonia and ammonia based cleaning products.. (don't use them on shellac)
If something happens it's butt simple to take some denatured alcohol and wipe off the problem and reapply shellac, no sanding involved.. the new shellac will melt in perfectly with the old and leave a flawless finish.. doesn't matter if it's a day week or century.. shellac fixes insanely easy..
Get a scratch in shellac? take a rag dampen it with denatured alcohol rub briskly and if children are present say abra cadabra. the scratch disappears.. No sanding stripping or hassle!
Shellac is hard! Harder than just about any other finish. try it.. ! It will shock you.. because we always associate shellac with fine antiques we somehow think shellac is delicate.. it's not! the antique may be delicate but as a finish shellac is the big bully on the block! It will kick oils and poly's tail with one had tied behind it's back!
Poly's need to have satin added to them to keep them from looking plastic. Not shellac!
It's a wonderful shine that looks rich and deep. real class, not a tarted up lady attempting to imitate class.
Now here's the great part. Clean up.. go ahead spill some shellac on that shirt, wash it and shellac be gone!
as for your brushes, well hang them up.. yeh don't bother cleaning them but don't throw them out either!
Just hang them up and when you are ready to put some more shellac on something soak them in denatured alcohol for a few minutes.. they'll be just like new even it you waited a 100 years.. HMM...... that would make you pretty old wouldn't it?
Now should I tell you how to do french polishing? Nah, that will drive you insane.. too darn much like work for me!
Frenchy,
It sounds like a whirling durbish would do a great job with shellac! I just haven't thought of finishing a project without any regard for paint runs, missing spots, etc. A couple more questions...
-What are the main differences between finishing with shellac vs. oil-based paint?
-Is Zinsser shellac the best product or does Sherwin Williams carry a good equivalent?
-Does it matter what type of brush that's used?
-Can a foam roller be used to get better coverage?
-Three coats of shellac is it--no other finishing steps?
Do you have any photos to post of a finished piece with shellac? Jon, do you have some photos of the cabinets you sprayed with shellac?
Thanks!
bbobo,
Pictures of a floor I did with shellac are at 86920.13 there are some pictures with some timbers shellaced at 34543.3 for the past 6 years I've worked 100% on this timberframe. Stuff I did prior to that was also prior to my getting a digetal camera so I don't have any other pictures to share with you.. -
Yes shellac is a great finish for a floor.. it won't scratch like normal finishes will and extremely easy and durable..
Zinsser is the only brand of shellac that is premixed (to my knowledge) you can buy flakes* and mix it yourself but doing so is more expensive and time consuming plus its a step that can potentially cause you to screw up.
*in a variety of colors
In interest of full disclosure Zinssers also makes an amber as well as the normal blond shellac as well as thinner mixed stuff.
I use Bulls eye because it's a good value and extremely fast.. while it is possible to get a can of Zinssers that is out of date or nearly so I've never had a single problem when I use my overthinned technique.. I suspect what happens is that the light ends of the carbon chain escape and the heavy ends delay evaporation causing problems.. using the over thinned technique introduces enough fresh denatured alcohol into the mixture that the risk goes away.
Brush,
I use a nice natural bristle brush nothing fancy. No you don't want to use foam, first the foam might possibly melt when exposed to alcohol instead of a petroleum based thinner. And second you'd be dipping the roller back into the pot every revolution.. plus as fast as you'd have to be the shellac would be flying all over everything!
When I say flood it on, please, really flood it on..
I've had people who simply can't do that.. They have to be neat. What I do is have them play Tom Sawyer and get some kid to flood it on for them. As they see the kid having fun something in them releases and they can do it from then on..
No other finishing steps? It really depends on you and what you want the finish to be like.. If you are going for deep shiney gloss you might want to color sand.. Don't worry it's extremely easy and fast. I'll talk you through the steps.. and if you are prone to be compusive you can do french polishing..
Now french polishing is a really tideous prolonged way to put shellac on but it results in a finish to die for.. Nothing and I do mean nothing is better.
Finally, shellac is not like most other finishes. Thick is a mistake.. it's depth comes not from thickness or film build up but from the smoothness of the surface.. ever sit in a boat on a lake when it's perfectly still and not a breeze is blowing? Notice how deep you can see then? But as soon as a breeze comes up and causes ripples your view disappears? That's the way shellac is.. thin is in! and with my overly thinned technique most of the finish evoprates because it's mostly alcohol. It leaves a nice thin and smooth finish for you..
"I suspect what happens is that the light ends of the carbon chain escape and the heavy ends delay evaporation causing problems."
Shellac dissolved in alcohol undergoes a process called esterification as it ages. It's an actual molecular change within the stuff, rather than solvent evaporation or anything like that. Zinsser adds some kind of magic ingredient that retards the esterification reaction, which is why they can advertise a long shelf life. And since they guarantee a three-year shelf life, you can assume that under most conditions it will actually last much longer.
-Steve
sascharfer,
I suspect it's the methyl isobutyl ketone they add. However with my overthinned approach I've never had an issue. However, when I cut it as they recommend I've gone thru some real drying issues. too slow a dry seems to cause a reaction that could possibly lead to the alligatoring that happens under certain circumstances..
I'm trying to remember decades ago the chemistry I took and exactly the combination that happens. Hopefully it will come back to me yet.
I'm a little confused after checking out the product details...Is the shellac a clear coat finish to show the natural wood or is it mixed into a paint to give a more durable painted appearance? In the end, I'm looking for an off white, satin finish.
Thanks, Brett
"Is the shellac a clear coat finish to show the natural wood or is it mixed into a paint to give a more durable painted appearance?"
You can get both. The benefits of shellac-based primers as an undercoat for paint are that they (a) stick to almost anything, (b) seal in unpleasantnesses, such as bleeding knots in pine, and (c) act as a barrier coat between finishes that would otherwise be incompatible, such as alkyd paint over ordinary latex.
Zinsser makes a shellac-based primer, whose name escapes me at the moment. It's white in color.
-Steve
Bullseye!I say that as both a response to your good information, as well as in response to the name of the Zinsser white primer. It's called "Bullseye".
Edited 10/5/2007 11:34 am ET by AndyCharron1
bbobo,
Both!
it can be a seal coat or it can be a clear finish coat itself..
Help! So much for asking the local hardware stores for help with paint products. By the way, I left a message for Zinsser but no word back yet.
I'm still confused on whether the bullseye shellac can be tinted any shade for the top coats. From what the label says, it looks like any colorant can be added up to a certain amount but what type of paint should be added, i.e. oil based, water based, a primer, a top coat, what? Also, does this have to be mixed youself or will stores do it for you? I think I mentioned before that the ultimate goal is an off-white finished piece.
Here's the kicker--I need to figure this out today since Sherwin Williams paint sale of 25% off runs through today. If I go with an oil based product, I'll choose their Pro Classic product, which I think is their top of the line paint. The only concern I have is being able to brush it on without seeing the bristle marks.
Thanks again,
Brett
There's "tinting" and there's "making paint." When most people think of "tinting" a clear finish like shellac, they're thinking about ending up with a finish that is colored but still basically transparent (think Kool-Aid).
It sounds like what you want to do is make paint. I don't think that's something you can do without a lot of experimentation with mix ratios, etc. If you're looking for an opaque white finish, then why not start with an opaque white paint in the first place?
-Steve
Steve,
You're right, I probably should just use a white paint as the "tinting" makes more sense now that you mentioned it, which is not the result I'm looking for. I just found it (shellac, that is) interesting when Frenchy mentioned it so I thought I should at least explore it before making a final decsion.
Finishing is almost it's own art aside from woodworking so it's a whole other beast to mater. I appreciate all of the input thus far--it's an eye opener for sure.
Just used an el-cheapo Horror Freight HVLP gravity gun and a Porter-Cable pancake compressor to spray eight kitchen cabinets (all base cabinets, between 24" and 60" long) and three bathroom vanities.
Step one was Zinsser Seal-Coat, the Parks equivalent that you get at HD. Thinned 50%, I used 16 oz of shellac for every 8 oz of denatured alcohol. Three full coats in 2 hours, dry time and scuffing with scotch-brite pad included. I used 1 gallon of alcohol and 1.5 gallons of shellac.
Step 2 was three coats of Minwax Polycrylic Satin, spread out over three days with dry time and scuff time. Minwax does NOT reccomend spraying. I beg to differ, it worked fantastic once we got the spray pattern, air flow and pressure settings figured out. We sprayed outside on a gravel driveway, set each unit up on low horses. My brother, who has autobody paint experience, gave me a spray lesson. It's easy. I used less than half a gallon of poly on three coats.
Cleanup was a breeze - alcohol through the gun, about half a pint, and a good rinse. Soapy water for the polycrylic, and a complete disassembly and drying.
The cabinets turned out amazing. As good a finish as I have ever been able to produce, perfectly smooth satin finish.
i agree on spraying minwax; although they say they do not test their products using a spray gun. cherry kitchen cabinets. sprayed outside. looks very good. bought an inexpensive hvlp gun via the internet. satisfied.
bb:
"I'm debating on whether or not to invest in a spray system"
I decided to spray finish. So far I have used Sherwin Williams products. A clear vinyl sealer with pre-catalyzed lacquer. I have also used one of their tinted opaque lacquers for some bathroom wainscoting.
As Howie recommends, I carefully read Charon's book and there are excellent videos on the FWW site.
I bought a spray gun with three tips (1.3, 1.4 & 1.5mm) for about $140.00 at Spraygun world.
Well, the initial results were plain awful. There are a lot of variables but I got some excellent advice here on Knots, particularly Keith. It took me about 6 weeks to get some face frames right. I got discouraged along the way but I persevered and it all started to make sense.
I am now pretty confident of being able to lay down a good finish with the S-W materials I have had experience with; so I am a two-trick pony!
It's been quite a learning experience, but IMO, a worthwhile journey. I love spraying for its speed and the quality of resulting finish. Although I still have a lot to learn, as others more experienced than I can attest.
If you are under the gun (no pun intended), then I wouldn't attempt to spray a project, but if you can devote the time to read, research and practice it's well worth it.
Regards,
Hastings
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