Replies

1. 
   woodrae | Jun 14, 2007 04:54pm | #1

   Manuel—

   You can trust the adhesive—but only if you trust your joinery. Adding through-bolts will only complicate the assembly and, unless you have some sort of cross-grain construction that requires the use of bolts, you don’t need ‘em. In your case, a flat, straight and smooth surface is all you need to get a good edge joint between your benchtop boards. You should be able to get this with no sweat from the jointer. If necessary, touch up the joints with a handplane. If you want, you could add biscuits or splines to aid assembly, but I wouldn’t bother as long as your boards are relatively flat and the joinery is tight after a dry-clamp test-run.

   A few other points:

   The same applies for the skirts, or aprons, on the front and back of the bench. Get a good glue joint off the jointer, and glue them on with clamps.

   You don’t mention it, but I would think about using plywood for the tool tray and for the ramps. That way you can circumnavigate the whole wood-movement issue.

   Sounds like a lovely bench, especially with the tool tray in the middle! Good luck on the project, and don’t hesitate to write back if you get stumped.

   —Andy Rae

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/14/2007 9:54 am ET by woodrae

1. 
   South Africa | Jun 14, 2007 05:57pm | #2

   Thank you for the prompt reply Andy, the boards have machined off the jointer & thicknesser beautifully (it's a 12" wide 3 bladed Jet combination machine.)
   However they still have those slight ripples that are formed by the spinning blades. If the boards were not 4" wide & 66" long I would feel confident to clean them up with a hand plane (i have the large Veritas bevel-up jointer), however I don't believe that i have the skills yet.
   Would a single pass with a random orbital sander & 80 grit paper or perhaps a light pass over my belt sander help the bonding or should I join straight off the thicknesser & ignore the ripples (the blades are very, very sharp).
   I will be using biscuits to help with assembly & glue-up
   With regards the aprons, I intend to use aprons both front & back with half blind dovetails joining them to the end caps, all the pics & plans that i have seen don't seem to have a back apron.
   Is there a wood movement reason for not having a back apron or just coincidence... as my bench will be standing away from walls, aesthetically i would really like to have the aprons & end caps all round, joined with the half blind dovetails as described in he book.
   Thanks again for the reply & you have saved me a lot of unnecessary complication that the through bolts would have caused.
   Your Plywood suggestion is great for the tool tray & ramps, thank you.
   Cheers,
   Manuel

1. 
   woodrae | Jun 15, 2007 04:58am | #3

   Manuel—You sound like you’re right on track.I would glue up straight off the thickness planer (what y’all ‘southerners’ apparently call a ‘thicknesser’), again assuming the joint looks tight, top and bottom, when you dry clamp. Sanding will invariably degrade the joint, no matter how good you are with a sander. Small, evenly-spaced ripples should be no problem—as long as they’re small. With sharp knives, you should have zero problems and get a really good glue joint.Remember: If you have to crank really hard on the clamps to bring the boards together, then you may have to plane or re-thickness the boards. They should be as flat as you can make them, although a gentle bow won’t hurt anything as long as you don’t need gorilla pressure to bring ‘em home with the clamps. Firm pressure should do it. Over-cranking the clamps come glue-up time introduces too much stress, and the joint can pop apart later as it tries to relieve that stress.My own European-style joiner’s bench has a back apron and, while wood movement is a concern, my half-blind dovetails have held fine for 20 years or more. Just remember to position the tails on the aprons, and not on the end caps. This way, they can flex a bit and even pop out of the tail sockets a smidgeon without sacrificing joint strength. In your case, with a plywood tool-tray in the middle and two localized 12-in. slabs on either side, I don’t think you’ll have as much wood movement as my 18 1/2-in. top exhibits. No worries, mate.Cheers back,Andy

1. 
   South Africa | Jun 15, 2007 10:23am | #4

   Good Morning Andy,Thanks for the advice, makes sense, i now feel comfortable & will keep you posted.Will keep a photographic record of progress & when it,s all finished i will send you a disk.Cheers,
   Manuel

2. 
   JohnWW | Jun 15, 2007 05:24pm | #5

   Manuel,

   I'll add my two cents here if I may.

   If you have distinct ripples on your stock the blades on your combo machine probably aren't set right and one of them is at the wrong height and taking a deeper or shallower cut than the others.

   You don't have to glue up all of the pieces at once, you can start out by just gluing two strips together and then add additional strips, one at a time, after the joint between the first two pieces is cured.  Done this way, there is a lot less chance for problems and you won't need to use biscuits which can create as many problems as they solve.  I'll second the opinion that sanding the glue faces will only cause problems.

   Given your description of the climate there, the greatest stress on the top will be during the dry season when the ends of the bench will dry out faster then the central area because the end grain will lose moisture quickly.  Be sure to seal the end grain with extra coats of finish to reduce the chance of end checking.  Adding cross bolts to the ends, and snugging them up as the top dries out, can help reduce the chance of cracking but the bolts probably aren't needed if the end grain is sealed well.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine

   Edited 6/15/2007 10:25 am ET by JohnWW

1. 
   South Africa | Jun 15, 2007 06:52pm | #6

   Thanks for the input John, I agree with you regarding the dry season, as mentioned before, the end grain ends of the 2 slabs will have long tenons cut right across the length of each end (around 12" long) and the end caps will have full length dado's stopping just short of the ends to accommodate the tenon ends of the slabs (Ultra short & fat Bread board ends really)My favorite finish & the one that i will use for the project is 1 part Danish Oil (Tung), 1 part White Spirits & 1 part Spa Varnish.Your suggesting that I apply the finish to the end grain say 3 to 4 coats, assemble the End Caps and allow the End Caps to move freely... obviously held in place by the Dove Tails to the Front & Back Aprons which will be glued to the side of the 2 slabs. Makes sense, i would still like to use the Long Bolts with barrel nuts & slotted holes, this way I believe the end caps will stay flat & can be seasonally adjusted. Remember that the right side cap is the rear jaw of my twin screw.. what do you think?Thanks for the interest,
   Manuel

1. 
   JohnWW | Jun 16, 2007 12:44am | #7

   Personally, I belong to the school of thought that bread board ends are fussy decoration rather than functional.  The problems they create with cross grain construction and the misalignment of the ends with the top when the moisture content of the wood changes are too much trouble.  Your top won't need the ends, the construction should be very stable.

   If you do add the bread board ends, make the slots in the end piece shallow, 1/2" to 3/4" over most of the 12" with deeper mortises at the very ends of the slot for two longer tongues that will form the mechanical connection.  An end block with a continuous deep groove the full length will possibly warp and cause problems.

   I would suggest that you just finish the bench in oil, a film forming finish isn't desirable on a work bench, and if you are applying the varnish/oil combination and wiping it off immediately the varnish isn't adding much at all to the finish.

   John W.  

2. 
   South Africa | Jun 18, 2007 11:45am | #8

   You guys have all been amazing, thanks for the advice on the finish John, it makes sense.Cheers,
   Manuel

3. 
   South Africa | Jun 26, 2007 04:47pm | #9

   Good afternoon,Have progressed to the glue up of the top sections, the cutting of the Dog Holes went exceptionally well using Router & jigs.Have 2 questions at this stage;1)As you know, am using American Hard Maple for the top, Jaws etc.
   intend using Soft Maple for the legs including stretchers etc.... Reason for this was mainly cost around 35% cheaper than the Hard Maple plus easier to cut joinery (mortice's, tenons etc. Do any of you see this as a problem.2)Any tricks in cutting/creating the "finger nail" detail that is used on the ends of the sledge feet & the ends of Vice Jaws, how do you guys get such an even radius with such a straight & sharp step....Cheers,
   Manuel

4. 
   woodrae | Jul 03, 2007 06:45am | #10

   Manuel—First let me say that I think you’ve gotten very good advice from John over at the Taunton shop. Stick with that guy; he’ll steer you right. (Although I suspect he and I could argue for days about the validity of breadboard ends; I’m a big fan.)There’s nothing wrong with using soft maple; it’s a wonderful wood that has good strength for joinery, and it sounds like the price can’t be beat. However, the base of a traditional-style bench such as yours should do two things: The framework design and stance of the base itself prevents racking, and minimizes any side-to-side or front-to-back movement. Second, the base, coupled with the top, provides stability.The first feature is easy to provide, assuming you make some sort of traditional H-shaped framework with suitable joinery, such as mortise-and-tenon or—my personal favorite—through-bolts captured in nuts inside the rails, which in turn have stub (short) tenons housed in shallow mortises in the legs.The second issue, stability, can be addressed somewhat by a decently-designed framework. But one of the key aspects is mass. The more mass, the better the stability and dampening, so mallet and hammer blows ring true and pushing planes and chisels over boards is swift and sure. Yup; a massive bench will even dampen vibrations from those pesky routers.Your soft maple doesn’t have the same specific gravity as hard maple and, as such, it doesn’t offer as much mass. The fix? I say stick with the better-priced wood by beefing up the sizes a bit. For example, if the design calls for a 3-in.-square leg, try making the legs 3 1/2 in. in section. Make the rails a bit thicker, and perhaps a bit wider. You get the idea. Add some more mass to your lighter-weight soft maple, and you’ll be fine.As for shaping the fingernail profile, my preferred method is the old-fashioned way: Draw the curve accurately on the workpiece with a compass, then tune up the bandsaw, put on a fresh blade (if necessary) and have at it. Try to cut as close to the line as you dare, then clean up the saw marks and fair the curve with a patternmaker’s rasp, a scraper and some 120-grit sandpaper, in that order. Use a square to check your progress, which helps keep things flat as well as square. A few well-positioned cuts on the ‘step,’ or shoulder, with a mallet and a sharp chisel should leave a clean line where the curve transitions with the broad face of the foot. Or you can try a shoulder plane if you have access to one. If you lack the confidence with hand tools, start the shoulder by making a crosscut on the tablesaw, then clean up the area as mentioned. Complete the job by sanding with finer grits until you get a surface finish that’s suitable to your tastes.—Andy

5. 
   South Africa | Jul 04, 2007 04:47pm | #11

   Thank you for the reply, with regards the Soft maple, i feel comfortable now, remember that i am building roughly as per the bench in "The Workbench" pages 158 to 161.. you will see that the bench has 4 rails, I also plan to add a cross piece plus panels to the end legs so that it looks a bit like the ends of a shaker bench.... this should satisfy the stability issue.
   Got the picture regarding the "finger nail" detail, seems that their is no easy way out.. Thank you.
   I have just completed the 2 halves that comprise the top,each half ended up 69inches long, 12.4inches wide (7 strips of 1.7inches) by 3.75inches deep, there are 4 rows of 9 Dog holes, 150mm apart.. the things weigh a ton.
   I took your (or was it Johns) advice regarding the tool tray but added a twist, I laminated off cut strips, left over from milling the top boards, the same width as the top boards to 1/2 inch ply & finished it off, I now have a tool tray with the base & ramps looking exactly the same as the top.
   I am at present battling with hand cut Dovetails for the 4 apron corners, intend using half blind dovetails so that the vises close against a flat surface.
   Have read the theory, and tried a test joint...bit of a disaster, will try a few more test joints & hope fully i get it right, if not i will revert to Half Lap joints..Thank you again you guys have been amazing.
   Cheers,
   Manuel

6. 
   woodrae | Jul 05, 2007 07:33pm | #12

   Manuel—Good luck on the dovetails. While I own a series of very interesting and useful 'traditional' handsaws, such as English rip, crosscut and dovetail, and Japanese dozuki and ryoba, I used my trusty big bowsaw for the dovetails on my bench... and do so whenever I'm faced with really big pins n' tails. Jes' sayin'....—Andy

7. 
   South Africa | Jul 06, 2007 12:55pm | #13

   Hi Andy,I have made 2 attempts on scraps milled for the purpose, both were relatively successful, as 1st attempts, but not perfect, I used the band saw for the tails & a tenon saw plus chisels (that was great, I had just received a set of Lee-Nielson bevel edge chisels plus their 1 inch chisel & this was a great opportunity to test them).However not perfect is not good enough & as I am not prepared to risk the timber, I have decided to (I hold my head in shame)mill the stock down to 38mm thickness (lose 7mm) & do Jumbo Half Blind Dovetails using Leigh's M2 attachment for my D4R jig with their #100 cutter.It was either that or a straight butt or half lap joint & I really want the dovetail look.Will let you know after this weekend how that went....Cheers,
   Manuel

8. 
   South Africa | Jul 09, 2007 03:54pm | #14

   Good Morning Ray,The Leigh D4R Jig with the M2 worked a storm, it was a bit fiddly to set up mainly due to the fact that it seems the ability to create "Jumbo" Half Blind Dovetails are a by product of the M2 & therefore the addendum to the M2 instructions relating to the Dove tails are not the greatest.However, with a bit of patience & around 1 meter of scrap stock that I machined at the same time as the good stock for testing I got the set-up perfect....It was quite funny putting the jig atop 2 tables & standing on a coffee table so that I could machine the 1750mm Apron tail ends.Cheers,
   Manuel

9. 
   woodrae | Jul 12, 2007 11:54pm | #15

   I'm hoping to doG that somebody took photos. : )