White oak cabinet, 23 feet long, floor to ceiling, some ply, some solid oak; the usual varaiation in colors piece to piece. The designer now says must be “toned” before staining, to assure uniform color. To make matters worse, it must match a pre-existing cabinet in color. I know nothing about this. Given that nothing is easy, is there an easy way? Visited Mohawk site, saw something about a color-matching service… anybody used this? Scared to death I’m going to ruin about forty grand worth of carpentry. Thanks in advance…
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I am far from being an expert at finishing but I have used the water soluble dyes for toning wood. They will give you a fairly even color tone over the cabinet and will help to even out light versus dark shades in the natural wood color. Jeff Jewitt's books on finishing give a good description on how to go about it. I have usually mixed the dyes half strength and then applied in several layers to give the color concentration you need for even coloring, i.e., some parts of the cabinet get one coat, some get two, etc. Since water soluble dyes will raise the grain of the wood will want to pre-raise the grain by first wiping down the cabinet with distilled water. After drying, lightly sand with 320 sand paper. The water soluble dye will still raise the grain a little, but it will not be too bad and will only take a light buffing to smooth it off again. After the dyes has dried I usually seal the wood with 1 or 2 coats of 1# cut shellac. You can then stain over the seal coat with stain, which will still fill the pores and make the grain pop out. As for getting the color and stain right to match your other piece, that will have to be trial and error using some wood samples. Good Luck.
There are a lot of variables to consider.
How much darker are the existing cabinets? One risk of using some sort of a toner to even the color out is that to do that properly you pretty much have to find the darkest wood and try to make the rest look about the same. But, if that then results in a wood too dark to achieve the expected color you've kinda backed yourself into a corner. Remember, it's easier to make wood darker than it is to make it lighter. And the color of the wood itself is part of the final color after you've finished them.
There are several methods that are used commercially to deal with uneven wood color. One is to use a toner or what some call "sap stain" because sap wood is lighter than heartwood and so the sap wood is colored to match the heartwood.
Another would be to bleach the color out. That is guaranteed to give you a uniform LACK of color. This might be the easiest in terms of being able to match the existing cabinets. But, it's also probably the most labor intensive
For sure you are going to want to test out your approach on scrap, preferably scrap from the same lot which you're going to use to build these cabinets.
thanks, Kevin. If I were to choose the bleach method, would I just wipe it down with water and clorox? Or what is involved otherwise?
Alas, I've never bleached wood. I've only read about it. So, you'll have to hope one of these other fine ladies or gents has first-hand experience with it and can give you more informed feedback. I'm at home recovering from having a small rock removed from my right knee. Otherwise I could just look it up in one of my books at work and tell you what they say to do. If nobody chimes in before tomorrow I can do it for you then.
I've always used dye to even out the color of wood, like the first person who responded to your question. Sometimes by dying the entire surface, which does help tie the colors together. Or by sap staining, which in my experience doesn't work all that great. But, then again I've only done it a few times on this poor quality Cherry that seems to be all that's out there now days.
What I would do if I were you is I would go examine the existing cabinets. If you see some slight variation in the color which looks like it'd be due to the natural variation of the wood then I wouldn't bother going to the extreme of bleaching the wood. A tying coat of dye might well be all you'd need.
How much darker are the existing cabinets? If you're really trying to add quite a bit of color than I would suggest using a wash coat of sealer to lock the dye in before applying the wipe stain. That will prevent the solvents in the wipe stain from reliquifying the dye and removing some of it... which of course would be counterproductive. In fact using a washcoat is really a good idea in all cases. But, for lighter colors I usually skip it.
I might add that these cabinets are built, beaded panel doors, pocket doors, sliding doors, pretty heavily detailed. They are so complex, that they had to be built in place, so the finish work will happen in the customer's house.
dmatheson,
As Kevin mentioned, all the toners I've seen are wet. However, about a month ago on TV they featured the Stickley factory and the guy was toning with a dry powder before the finish and the rub out...he was working on white oak...maybe there is another way.
seal with shellac, stain, one top coat of finish, then apply toner made of stain and sanding sealer where needed, then at least 2 more top coats of finish.
Any chance you have a good picture of the color you're matching? There are a lot of ways to even out the coloring when you're applying a finish. The first consideration is how dark the match color compared to the wood you're using. To give you an idea of one approach, take a look at this link - http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Staining_and_Blending_Difficult_Woods.html
If the white oak (or parts of it) is darker than the match, then it's the wrong wood. But it can be lightened and the coloring made more uniform by using a Bleachtone stain. If the match is quite a bit darker than the wood, then you're in good shape and it's just a matter of figuring out the steps needed to get the color right. If the match color is just slightly darker than the darkest areas of the white oak, then you'll have to selectively darken the light areas first.
A good picture of the match, as well as your observations of the finish, will help a lot in trying to steer you in the right direction. In the article at the link, there's a very brief discussion of matching a finish. Identifying if the color has been applied in layers (toner and/or glaze) is an important part of getting a good match. I'm sure the designer means well, but her idea/concept of "toning" may, or may not, be the best approach.
Paul
http://www.finishwiz.com
Thanks, Paul I followed your link and learned a lot. Tomorrow I will take a picture and post it of the thing I'm supposed to match. Wife has me off to dinner at the beach. Don
Paul, BG and others trying to help,
I'm attempting to send files showing old cabinet and new illustration of lights and darks. I believe they are attached. thanks. Don
Don,
I don't think you have a problem at all. Take a couple scraps of the white oak (one lighter and one darker wood) and stain them with Minwax Golden Oak. After the stain is completely dry, stain them again. Once the second coat of stain is dry, apply a couple coats of finish (your choice). I think you'll get a very good match.
To get good color from the stain, use what I call the "wet wipe." Use a cloth wetted with stain and wipe the wood with it, quickly covering one section (stain as large an area as you're comfortable with). Squeeze (don't wring it dry) the excess stain out of the cloth and use the damp cloth to wipe the area you just stained to remove any puddles or runs. Wipe with the grain. Do the entire piece, one section at a time, using the same technique . If the stain drips or runs onto an adjacent surface, quickly wet that surface with stain also so the drips and runs don't stay darker. To make the stain dry overnight, add an ounce of japan drier (located in the paint aisle at your local home center) to each quart of stain (4 ounces per gallon). Next day, once the stain is dry (make take 2 days if the humidity is really high), wipe on another coat of stain using the same technique. Give the second coat a day or two to dry before topcoating.
Do you spray lacquer? Ever spray a lacquer with some dye or pigment in it (toner)?
Paulhttp://www.finishwiz.com
Paul, Dave et al, Thanks. In fact, that was my thought when I took the job. but the designer's harping on bringing it all to one shade spooked me. I'll try this simplest of solutions on ply, light and dark samples, tell the designer I toned it, and see if he is satisfied by result.Have a gun and compressors, but have never done a project this size with spray lacquer. I have emphasized the dangers of the fumes inside to the health of the lady customer's dogs, a real concern, I believe, not to mention burning the house down, and she has agreed we can use poly instead of the spray lacquer that the designer wants.Will let you know how it progresses.Don
Don, I suggest that you test the stain on some hardwood pieces as well as the ply panels. Sometimes the ply takes the color a little differently than the face frames. Since it is the face frames that abut the old cabinets, IMHO, this is where you want the closest match.
Will test on ply and solids.... fortunately, the old and new are on opposite sides of the room, so they will not actually abut anywhere.
I don't want to complicate this but designers are sometimes totally impractical and unrealistic so ........... If the the old and new cabs are on opposite walls, the lighting can be very different giving off a totally different appearance to the eye even if they had been finished and installed at the same time. I would have a discussion with the designer regarding the color match with the samples side-by-side with the old cabinets under a direct light. That way, when finished and installed on the other wall they can not complaint that they don't match. Bottom line, get the sign-off on the color match first.
I'll try this simplest of solutions on ply, light and dark samples, tell the designer I toned it, and see if he is satisfied by result.
That's a really good idea, Don. I had a boss once way back when who was real anal about color matches. Another guy did the color matches. Anyway, sometimes the boss would say, nope... not close enough. If the guy doing the matching thought that it in fact was a good match he would go away, smoke a cigarette outside and then take back the very same sample. Most of the time the boss would nod sagely and say that this new sample was better and that we could go ahead and use it.
The moral of the story is that sometimes control freaks just have to be accomodated. As often as not their rejection has nothing to do with the color sample and everything to do with the desire to be in control.
As long as he thinks you jumped thru his hoop he may well be happy with whatever your sample looks like.
When faced with a similar matching problem, I brought a piece of what was to be matched to my finish supplier (a Campbells agent). They mixed me a stain concentrate to mix into satin laquer which I then sprayed, followed by a clear topcoat. this worked very well. You can spray in situ by making a clear tarp tent and a squirrel cage fan for an exhaust. Hope this helps
JM
Thank you. At this point, I am trying to heed the cautions voiced by several in this thread to not ruin the great carpentry on this job by trying to learn sophisticated finishing techniques at this late hour. In fact, the simple wipe on stain came out a lot closer to the desired result than I expected it would. (Better to be lucky than smart!) While the designer kept pushing for perfection, and maybe that is his job, the owner now seems to be stepping in and saying, "Hey, the sample looks great. Let's not screw it up."
Principally a builder, I have had a lot of fun over the years in my shop trying to build exacting furniture and cabinet projects, using techniques learned in Fine Woodworking and Fine Homebuilding. However, I must admit that I have gotten into trouble before trying to use various "easy foolproof techniques" in the finishing department. And while I believe some who have contributed here could take it to a higher level, I'm just not confident that I have the experience to do so on this scale without enormous risk.
The lesson that I hope will stick with me is to not get in over my head as I clearly was in this project.
No expert here, but I'd go for matching the dark with another coat of stain on the light sections. Once it is all the same color, maybe the difference with the original will not be so apparent. Keep it simple if possible. Also, it all may darken with the finish coats, so test that as well. In short, keep trying easy solutions. I think it's going to look great. Todd
It sounds like you've got a sensible homeowner. That's always a big plus!
While I would certainly agree that there is no substitute for experience when it comes to finishing, self-confidence can be a huge asset if coupled with a bit of a perfectionist streak. I remember several years ago when I worked at a different exhibit house and I had one principle helper who I was training to be a painter. This kid was absolutely brimming over with self-confidence. In fact he quickly acquired the nickname "The Rooster" among the shop guys because he walked around like he was the top Rooster in a hen house. Good kid, very bright and a super quick learner. Anyway, there was one job in particular that was technically challenging. I let him spray it and he blew me away with how good a job he did. It was a metallic paint and those are always harder. But, the configuration of what he had to spray made it vastly more difficult because of overspray issues. Long story short... I think in his relative ignorance he didn't realize how hard it should be and he ended up doing a spectacular job in large part because of his self-confidence.
I see color variations all over the finished comparison cabinet. I don't think your wood is any worse than that.
Is the designer a finishing expert or just a prima donna? I think it'll come out as good as the cabinet as long as you match the color and density.
I must agree with your designer on use of spray lacquer vs. Poly..poly, to my mind, smells worse, the smell lasts a lot longer in enclosed areas (think the inside of a drawer, woodworkers. Varnish smell never leaves, lacquer or shellac is gone the next morning!). Plus Poly is more expensive and, when I work with it, can't be sprayed and runs like hell.
Tell the lady to take her dogs away for the weekend and come back to nicely-sprayed cabinets!lp
Paul,I agree with your solution.
Well, I'll agree with Paul about the stain. It sure looks like good old Minwax Golden Oak. (I've probably used at least 100 gallons of the stuff over the past 25 yrs - lol)
I'm still urging that you sub the finish work, though. Forty grand worth of cabinetry ain't no place to practice (or learn) staining and finishing.
Sounds like a spray job to me. Toners are indeed important for matching colors, especially when staining light colored woods. It's the same as when painting walls -- sometimes a white primer is used, but for richer tones you need richer/darker primers.
The "stain" you are matching -- is it a lacquer finish, or a stain?
I'd be inclined to look for a good stain spray setup, or find a cabinet maker who will sub the finish work for you.
Considering the size (and cost) of the project, I would get a bid from a professional finisher. Matching existing colors can be a major heartburn and this isn't the time or place to experiment - lol.
Hopefully, these requirements weren't in the original specification 'cause you're probably looking at some serious money here - and you definitely need a change order.
Dave45, how right you are. Alas, situation: I'm a builder with a shop for doing cabinets etc. My cabinetmaker SAID he knew how to do this and he priced the job, now he's working somewhere else, and I'm trying to figure it out, as it is already in the cards that I'm losing money on the job. A shame, because the cabinetry is beautifully rendered, something to be proud of, but losing money on it sours it for me, as its my living, not a hobby, my own stupid fault. If I cannot achieve level of confidence with samples made from advice I get here, then I know I will have to take your advice and hire a professional finisher. Around here, that will cost a pick-up truck.
I'd thought about subbing it out too. But, let's see what the pics look like first. It may not be all the difficult.
I think Paul nailed it talking about how different colors requiring different approaches and how light/dark the existing cabinets are being critical. As I'm sure he'd say as well, I don't have any set approach to color matching existing finishes. Everything depends on color, species of wood and how light/dark it is. So far all we know is the species of wood.
If you could get maybe one or two close-up pics in good light that would be handy too. Mostly because that should help answer whether it's a stain or a tinted lacquer.
Sux to be you right now, doesn't it? - lol
In an earlier post, Kevin seems to be suggesting that you give it a shot, but I'm going to disagree. On a smaller project, maybe, but this one is just too risky.
I see a few options that may work;
Talk to the designer (and maybe the customer) and just lay it out for them. Your guy bid the job then bailed on you so now you have to sub the finish work out. With a little luck, they might agree to a higher price. The designer may also have some contacts that owe him some favors.
Swallow real hard and sub it out anyway. Yeah, you'll lose your azz, but now is the time to cut your losses. This cabinet is going to be seen by lots of folks for a long time and it's important that the customer is a happy camper. Your name will be mentioned no matter what, so you want the customer praising you.
If you're gutsy, see if your ex-guy will finish it for whatever price he figured in the bid. If he does and it comes out well, you both win. If he blows it, you have a direction to point your finger.
Good Luck!!
How big is the cabinet you have to match? Maybe you can refinish that piece to match your piece if you mess up. Good luck!
D, I don't know about some of these designers, but if I were you I would be hoping that the existing cabinet is also white oak. Then I would be finding out how it was finished and be talking to that designer about it.Maybe The Designer would think it a good idea to get a specialist to finish your work?
philip et al,
The designer saw me coming.... We priced the job at forty grand, to him, and he's marking it up, I think to about fifty, including finishing, so he expects it to be done for forty, no matter how much it costs me. The others are white oak.I've this AM put the second coat of golden oak on a sample beaded panel door with light and dark solid wood stiles and rails and plywood panel. To the good, the ply and light solid wood seem to be coming out identical, nice surprise, because the ply is lighter prior to staining. The darker solid does still seem darker. looking at the whole project, I'm thinking that it might be easier to pre-treat the darkest boards to lighten them, if anybody can tell me how to go about trying to bleach or tone them a little bit before putting the golden oak on. I've looked at color samples of toners on the Mohawk web site.... so many colors I don't know where to start. Also wondering about whether de-waxed amber shellac between stain and poly would pull the lights and darks toward each other. Open to alternative suggestions.Much appreciation to all my advisors here. Don
Don,
A clarification please? You say after two coats of stain the light and dark raw oak does not match that well?....which of the two, if any, compares well to the customers finished wood?
Also, maybe you should e-mail Paul Snyder your latest information...great learning thread.
Have now compared the two-step result (two coats of Golden oak) with the color of existing cabinet, and there is no doubt that golden oak is the color. As to variation, the ply and solid woods came very close to each other. When held beside the old cabinet, the lightest stile on my sample door appears to be an exact match. Were this designer not breathing down my neck, I'd say, great, stain it and forget it, But his response is, make it all like that one stile. So the question becomes, how to control how much stain sticks... I'm still wondering if the answer lies in lightening the wood with bleach prior to staining..... or do I thin the stain (with natural stain?) and do more layers until I get to the right shade, try to treat each board as a separate progression, which seems damn near impossible to me on a job this large, or just leave the stain on a shorter time before wiping it off.Have put no finish coat on my sample yet. Am wondering as I did in previous post, if a couple layers of shellac as sanding sealer prior to poly finish would pull the colors together, and whether it will make it lighter or darker. Am appending a photo of the sample door, for what it is worth, as in this photo, the right stile appears darker than the rails, while in fact, the right stile is the lightest piece.... don't know if this angle of light effect lessens as finish coats are applied. Ruminations on these ruminations will be greatly appreciated.
The designer is awfully demanding Don! It would have been nice to know before hand that all the wood had to hand picked to ensure it was the same color. Personally, I think the door looks good!
If the final color was darker and not so transparent, you could use a bleachtone stain on the darker boards and then stain everything. But since that's not an option in this case, you're best approach is to bleach the darker boards. You can get a 2 part bleach (aka, A/B bleach) from paint stores or finish suppliers. Use a synthetic brush and "paint" a dark board with solution "A." While it's still wet, use a CLEAN brush and "paint" part "B" right over it. Use splash proof googles and nitrile gloves for safety. The two chemicals (sodium hydroxide & hydrogen peroxide) will react with each other and the wood and make it lighter. Let it dry overnight. Then use a mix of 1 part vinegar and 2-3 parts water on the bleached boards to neutralize the chemicals. Let dry overnight. Next day sand lightly with very fine paper to remove the raised grain. Don't oversand, the bleach doesn't go very deep and you can sand back to dark wood if you sand too much.
Once smooth, wet the wood with mineral spirits (aka paint thinner), or naphtha, or lacquer thinner, or acetone to see what the wood's color will be once you start applying a finish. If the bleached boards are too light, you can use a REALLY dilute (1 part dye, 75-100 parts thinner) "mission" brown dye on them before using the Golden Oak stain. Do a color sample first, the dye may not be necessary!
Good luck,
Paulhttp://www.finishwiz.com
thanks, Paul. I will try this on some scraps. Being worried that I might get drips and spots trying to treat individual boards in a thing this big, I assume you would approach this by masking around boards getting the special treatment? And this makes me wonder what the result would be if I used the diluted dye on the whole project prior to staining.... maybe then diluted the stain to avoid going too dark? Just a thought.And would you use shellac over the stain before poly? Haven't tried it on this sample yet. Does this have any unifying effect on color, shade?
Hi Don,
You've seen what happens when you add color to the light and dark boards; they both shift color by an equal amount. The difference between them remains the same. Dying all the wood will make all the boards a little darker than they are now (even if you use a light/bright colored dye like Golden Oak). To get the light and dark boards to match, you either have to make the light boards darker or the dark boards lighter. The designer made the choice; the dark boards have to be lighter. I think it's unreasonable... but it's what you're stuck with.
The easy solution is to mask off and spray the dark boards with a bleachtone stain. It's a white pigmented stain with very little pigment that lightens the color and gives the wood a bleached look. You control how light the color is by diluting the bleachtone. With the dark wood lightened, you apply stain, glaze, and/or toner to all the wood to get the final, uniform color. But you can't use that option in this case because the final color is a transparent dye (Golden Oak) and the boards with the white pigment will not look the same as the boards without the pigment.
I have not tried to bleach individual boards in a piece that was already constructed but I think your concern about drips and runs is a real problem (not to mention the bleach bleeding from one board to another). Masking may be a solution, as long as you mask with plastic and brush very carefully. Another option I'd try first is to do a sample where you bleach both the light and dark wood and see if you end up with a uniform color. If so, you could bleach the entire piece and start with a "blank canvas."
Paulhttp://www.finishwiz.com
I think this can be easier than you think if you'll experiment...it's time well spent..although I hope you're being compensated.
I just finished building a mahogany table that I toned with amber water-based dye before staining and topcoating..and it turned out great.
The real issue is this: "Is this combo of toner and stain the right color?" Period...nothing else matters.
Get some samples of that type of wood and to a start-to-finish finishing schedule..sand, tack-rag, tone (and measure the toner-to-solvent ratios you can duplicate, count number of coats, etc), stain (ditto on brand, dilution, coats, technique), topcaot, sand and wax (or whatever the schedule it).
If you'll do several pieces with different toners, different number of coats, etc, you should have 4-6 samples, one of which should be damn close.
Keep good records and be consistent about what you do...measuring, coating, etc.
I'd ask the designer which one he/she wants you to do..and I'd charge for the time it takes to do this sampling..if things are that critical.
Good luck!
lp
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