Dear All,
I have a question that I would like to pose. For my own reasons, I try to “get done” as quickly as possible in the shop. Recently I have been working with Atlantic White Cedar which has been nice. My question relates to my jointing practice. I am milling rough 2x stock and have been taking 5/16″ on the initial pass, on edge and 1/8″ on the face. I stalled the jointer three times, on edge and I realize that I am probably asking a bit much of my machine. I have a PM 54 A 6″ that I upgraded with a Byrd “Shelix” cutterhead. It has a 1 hp 110V motor. The indexes are all sharp and everything seems to be functioning properly. My question is, would a more powerful machine make much difference, or am I just being stupid? (Wouldn’t be the first time!)
John
Replies
John,
You've answered your own questions. Of course you're removing too much material. If you can stall a jointer with new blades, your depth of cut is too great, you're feeding too fast or both.
Of course more power would allow you to hog off more wood at a time. But you are way over the limit. Slow down and listen to your machinery. In addition to eventual damage, your method is less than safe.
5/16?! That's a huge bite, as is 1/8 on the face. Gees, 1/16 is a large bite.
Rich
Must be my hubby's long-lost twin brother or something. That's why I lock up my tools and do not give him the key. Really p|s$es him off, but that's life.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
You know, and I just posted a compliment about you on another thread! :-) Not that I abuse my tools, (IMHO) but I do subscribe to the school of thought that if they fail under what is considered "normal" usage then they are no good to begin with. Being self-taught, I am not sure what "normal" is. Could I make these heavy cuts with a 2 or 3 hp machine? If a jointer wasn't designed to take off that much material in one pass, why does it have settings that would seem to indicate that I am within the machines intended "envelope"? What do you consider a "normal" cut? I think that you use a Jet jointer, yes? How has that performed?Thanks,JohnPS. Lock up your tools??!! That is why they make sledge hammers! :-)
Edited 6/26/2006 4:28 am ET by Jmartinsky
A jointer is great for giving your wood a flat and square face and edge and the idea generally is to remove as little material as possible to do so. If you need to remove that much material quickly a saw would be a better option. I have a friend with a planer that will take a full quarter off a 3 foot wide board in one pass, it weighs in the neighborhood of 4000 lbs and is 30hp. if I remember correctly. Everytime I've visited it was set to remove less than a 1/16. My jointer is a DJ-20, I have no idea how much material it would remove in one pass because I set it to remove as little as possible and make multiple passes until the piece is flat. Taking less of a bite gives you a much better surface and giving you a good flat surface is what a jointer is all about.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
The range of adjustment is there to accomodate blade changes where the width is a bit different, and for such things as rabbetting or tapering operations where the table height doesn't reflect the amount of the cut. (Its like a stereo system. The gain (volume) control almost always allows you to blow out the speakers or the amplifier if turned up all the way.) Such cuts are way beyond what the jointer was designed for, and certainly constitute abuse, not lack of fundamental quality.
I can't imagine any manufacturer would consider 5/16th to be a "normal" jointing depth. What does the owners manual say? You have a light duty jointer you are asking to make cuts that would be extraordinary on industrial production machines. But industrial machines (are there any industrial 6" jointers?) would cost many times more. P.S. Your owners manual says to "NEVER" make cuts more than 1/64th while surfacing (p. 14) and suggests jointing cuts be limited to 1/16th for hardwoods, and 1/8th for softwoods. It is NOT designed for more.
I would think cuts that heavy would also be very prone to kick back and other bad things. Its not safe.
For that matter, I can't imagine that hogging off that much wood speeds things up much if any. Once one edge is flat, its faster to rip to width on the table saw. Besides, jointers aren't designed to provide parallel edges, so ripping is necessary to achieve boards that are both straight and square. Even with the shelix blades I can't but fear the tear out on most woods would be tremendous with such heavy cuts, requiring other time consuming steps to achieve respectable surfaces.
Edited 6/26/2006 7:19 am ET by SteveSchoene
Dear Steve,
Owner's manual? What's that? :-) I know that owners manuals say to "never" do a lot of things. I have also found that they are often wrong and written my attorneys. In my experience, there is what is recommended, there is what is possible and efficiency lies somewhere in-between. I haven't experienced kickback with the jointer. Perhaps it is not strong enough to kick @ 1 HP, but when it stalls, it pretty much just stops. You mention that you "would think cuts that heavy would also be very prone to kickback and other bad things. It is not safe". Are you saying that you are not sure whether it will kick back? Do jointers kick?. What other bad things can happen? As far as cut quality goes, I have had no tearout, none. It think this has more to do with the species than anything else as I have had maple and others tear out at much lesser cuts. Thanks,John
John,I really wondered whether your first message was trolling. I have never known anyone to stall a jointer.Why ask at all if you just want to argue? Yeah, shop manuals are written by attorneys, as were all the posts above recommending 10 to 20 times less cut than your 5/16" nonsense. We all are coming from the legal side of things here. Right!Stall out your little machine all you want. Heck, hog off 1/2" cuts from rock maple. Knock yourself out.Rich
I read posts thru #14. What a pile of chips you must create! You must be in an extreme hurry to be so resistant to the reasons to operate the jointer more conservatively. That makes me fear that you are due for a bad accident, but I hope not. SteveSchoene pretty well explained jointer design & operation philosophy. If you must remove so much wood in one pass, a larger machine with larger motor running on 220v, & probably double drive belts, is in order. The fact is, however, that you are demanding more from a jointer than anyone should expect. Is there some way to temper the haste?FYI: I am a tediously slow worker myself with no reason to hurry. I still have an occasional accident.Cadiddlehopper
John is just a provacative, argumentative guy. He knew from the first that describing 5/16" stock removal from his little machine would raise howls here. Then he had a chance to refute advice given. What a guy.
As for his needing to work real hard to put food on the table (*sob, sob*), he ain't doin' that with his jointer work, that's fer sure.
I don't think we need to worry about John. He's been around the block.
John, why stop at 2 hp? Wire your garage for 3 phase 220 and put a 10 hp engine and toothed belts on that puppy! Like the man used to say on the TV, "MORE POWERRRR!!!"
You haven't experienced kickback with the jointer because your machine's power is insufficient to do so; where you've stalled is where a more powerful machine might kick back. Get a more powerful jointer, and do what you've been doing, and I think you'll find out what kickback is. I just hope it's not a painful lesson.
I've not had kickback on my jointer, but I've had it on my TS a few times, and my garage door still hasn't forgiven me.
Be safe. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Wow! I don't really know where to start. I had no idea the passion that a question could ignite! I guess if I ignore the alarmist (argumentative? interesting...) It sounds like the consensus is that I am asking too much of the machine. That was my conclusion as well, I just didn't know if I am overtaxing this machine in particular, or if it is bad practice, in general. OK, so I can't justify a new jointer...yet. I do have one new question, can someone enlighten me as to jointer kickback? Rich, you can jump in on this too, if it's not too much for the old ticker! I am all too familiar with TS kickback, I have heard of planer kickback, but never seen it, jointer kickback is a new one on me. Thank you all for for responses and admonishments. I am a big kid and can handle the attacks as well. I would caution those who do just attack, unencumbered by knowledge, as we do not want to drive others off this forum.Thanks Again!John
It does happen sometimes John-- kickback I mean. A common way for it to occur is if a very hard knot hits the cutters. A loose knot can drop out of the plank at an awkward moment too, ie, just as it's passing over the cutterhead. A reverse in the grain will do it sometimes. Also it can happen at the very beginning of a cut if the cutters just happen to snatch on the wood. Dull cutters can exacerbate the problem if it occurs
I've experienced small to medium kickbacks many a time. Most experienced users have. You feel a small to fairly hefty jumping of the wood under your hands as the wood passes over the blades. Smaller pieces of wood tend to suffer it more than big pieces that, of course, have mass and inertia on their side.
I've never experienced a serious kickback on one of these machines, but I've seen pretty big kickbacks occur in workshops I've worked in so the potential is there for the unwary. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks for your input. Bear with me as I try to get my head around this. I keep envisioning a "chatter", before the kick. Perhaps this is not how it happens, or perhaps I am completely off base. What is a "big" kick? Will it actually throw the wood ala TS style? Does it explode such as I've had oak flooring do in the miter-saw? How dramatic is it? Maybe I am showing my inexperience, but I have found my jointer to be fairly free of bad habits, again, maybe this has to do with be a lower powered machine as opposed to an industrial machine. Two additional questions if you don't mind:1) The European jointers use a different blade guard than here in the States. Typically the European machines are safer, yet that jointer guard looks a bit scary.2) What is Slainte?Thanks,John
I had the loose knot experience on a jointer. The knot looked sound, but when the blades caught it, out it came. It kicked the board back suddenly without warning (no chatter). No damage occurred except to the board, but I almost had to change shorts. A cupped board can do the same thing as it enters the cutterhead. There may be no damage, but it is scary.I cut my finger this afternoon. I put myself in a situation that caused me to act in haste. Thanxx for asking about Slainte.Cadiddlehopper
Dear Cadi,
I think that I understand the loose knot, but a "cupped" board? I guess that I am imagining a board that is "cupped" along its length, where jut the outer edges would touch the jointer surface, or do I have that wrong?John
You are right except that the leading & trailing edges contact the table with concave side down. As it feeds into cutters, depth of cut increases, sometimes suddenly, as board passes over edge of infeed table to blades. This is usually worse with rough lumber than dressed. Occasionally it will then catch on the outfeed table due to the downward movement of the board. If you have had much experience with the jointer you have probably encountered these glitches. They may be more apparent with lighter cuts than deep ones. Kickback is rare, but not unknown.Cadid
OK, sure, I have had boards "hang up" on the outfeed table, but I don't think that I really realized what was happening until I read your description. So are you saying that the cutterhead could grab the front of the piece and try to yank it into the machine.........YIKES!!John
That is not likely. Kickback is more likely. It probably wouldn't send a board across the room. The severity of cupping would determine how severe the kickback. It would probably require a hard wood & dull blade to cause the board to go very far.Cadid
"It probably wouldn't send a board across the room." I'd be more concerned about it hitting my hand or arm than going across the room. Therein lies the problem with jointer kickback, no? You're hand is just about bound to be in the way. With the table saw, if you're standing correctly, at least there's a good chance the missle will miss.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaardangeeeeeeeeeeit!
The original post has been answered well by a range of woodworkers from experienced to relatively inexperienced, and so I have no wish to join the border skirmishers-but there most certainly is concensus.
I have only to say that one horse is plenty of power capable of giving a mean kick back under suitable circumstances such as over feeding a smallish stick, too heavy a cut and being in a HURRY.Philip Marcou
Most definitely. One horsepower will lift 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute (and less weight a lot farther and faster).
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Yes , sire, indeed , and what's more you or even me can't even churn out a half horse each!
A luta continua (Ithink)Philip Marcou
Dgreen, That would be break HP your talking about ! Shouldn't we be concerned with indicated HP. Can't leave out friction losses, belt slippage, motor efficiency. Might mean the differance of a few feet as to how far the board is thrown. Couldn't resist.
And, Yes I have caught a loose knot, scarry!! I Always use push blocks when doing stock flat. My jointer is set for 1/32, sometimes I take as much as 1/16Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
You are so right about the most likely danger. I usually use push blocks which offer some safety for my hands.Cadid
Hmm, John, you can get a sort of chattering effect where the wood sort of rattles up and down under your hands. It can be the precursor to KB. In my experience that effect is caused by one of two things, or combination of them: a hard and dense wood and/or dull cutters.
The causes of KB have been pretty well covered in this thread already. There are though other cause of kickback not yet mentioned I think. One is where the worker simply fails to exert enough force downwards and forwards, ie, they basically let go of the wood. Pretty dumb I know, but I've seen it happen. Another is flattening a piece that is too short-- anything under about 12" long is too short, and I'm wary of anything less than about 16" long. Small section light bits can be difficult to hold and are candidates for kickback.
The KB itself can be mild to serious. Mild is just some bouncing around under your hands, and serious is where the wood does actually get thrown up and back hard. I've never seen the wood actually thrown across the workshop in over thirty years of working wood for a living except when dealing with very small light bits, eg, 2" square and about 15" long. With heavy wood (large full planks) I have seen some pretty hefty jolts to the worker that did things like sprain wrists and bruise hands. I can't ever recall a piece of wood shattering as it's passed over the surface planer (jointer) but I've no doubt it's possible.
The European machines use a bridge guard that covers the portion of the blade not in use. It's just a different method of guarding to the style in north America. I've used both and have no particular preference for one over the other. Each has their plus and minus points.
I don't get the pishing contest that going on incidentally. Perhaps I'm missing some subtle undercurrents and showing my stupidity. Slainte. (Cheers basically in gaelic.)Richard Jones Furniture
Dear Mr. Jones,
I have had a bit of a time separating the wheat from the chaff on this one, so I appreciate a cool head. I'm not sure what set some of the "field" off, but it makes it difficult to gather information. They'll get over it. Your descriptions have been most helpful. Contrary to my apparent reputation, I have no interest in harming my equipment or myself. Some of my techniques are born of experimentation, some of necessity. In this case, a bit of both. I have a better than 50 % loss of feeling in my dominate (right) hand that is aggravated by "carpel tunnel syndrome". I have had to modify my work habits to get around it, but the jointer seems to be most difficult for me. The less passes that I make, the better. I've even considered a power feeder, but that would seem pretty awkward.Thanks again for your patience and answering my questions. Especially the one about "Slainte". Pronounced.......... SLANE-tee ? Rhymes with PLANE-tee?Best,John
Increasing the cut, which also requires increasing the force from the right hand, may not be the best way. The right hand only should be applying forward push, with just enough downward force for control, the down force should come from the left hand, pushing down over the outfeed table. For face jointing, a push board--I much prefer a substantial board (mine is 2"x3" padauk about 12" long) with a hook for a positive push on the board, rather than the foam padded pushers that depend on friction to get the force. Such a hooked pusher ought to be able to be formulated with a handle that would let the wrist stay in a less aggravating position while pushing. You would have to figure out a good angle and shape, and perhaps do some shaping with a rasp and sandpaper.
OK. So your last reponse is sort of an apology. Not quite, but maybe an attempt.
Then you go right ahead and be a butt head again. You ask questions for which you obviously know the answer. Like you didn't know that stalling your jointer was not a good thing?
Jointer kickback? Now what do you think it is, Big Guy?
You're pushing wood into a blade rotating against the direction of the feed. Push a piece of hardwood into an 8 or 12 inch jointer driven by a 3 hp motor and try taking off 5/16", especially if you've misread the grain direction.
That jointer won't stall. It'll chop a huge hunk out of the leading corner of the board, possibly break a knife or 2 and throw the stock back against the heel of your hand hard enough to break your arm, or worse.
Dear Rich,
I'm afraid that you've misread me again. So let me clarify:1) My last reply contained no apology.
2) I am not asking questions for which I have the answers.
3) My question about stalling centered around whether my technique or equipment was at fault.I'm not really sure what your deal is, unless you are an attorney and somehow, thought that I was slamming the legal profession. For the record, I was not. Beyond that, if your information is accurate, other more "normal" individuals will confirm or deny that. Check your meds, perhaps you missed a day!John
That you haven't already sustained a serious injury is hard to believe.
That you are a fool is obvious.
That you are a troll goes without saying.
I only hope that no one else gets hurt when your abysmal stupidy around power equipment results in the inevitible calamity.
Dear Rich,
OK, so you've continued to attack me personally, but you haven't backed up your arguments (again)) re: my techniques. So what's it going to be, do you actually have something to add, or are you just going to blow a lot of hot air? So, again, please enlighten us all:1) Explain how I am a fool. (Excluding responding to you)
2) Explain "troll".So Rich, again, if this is simply going to be a personal attack, give it a rest.Best,John
Dear Rich,
HEY! I think that I remember you! Did you used to use the handle "Handrubbed"? Why the change? Still smarting from our last conversation?Best,John
I have a finger tip that tells the weather after a board "disappeared" from a jointer. This was more than 20 years ago and I know a lot better now--bout lots of things thankfully.
Dear Steve,
So it actually threw it off the machine? Did it give a warning or did it just toss it?Best,John
Instantly gone. No warning, there one moment-- next: looking at blood from finger tip followed by figuring out to drive myself to emergency room. It is easily understandable why interrogators sometimes focus on finger nails.
I didn't have good technique, and the board was too small. But, we were not talking about lots of power; it was on an old 4" jointer--the first I had ever used. Motor wasn't likely to have been more than 1/2 or 3/4 hp.
Hi John. I just went back to re-read the thread (to try and see why you and Rich14 are in such a state with each other, LOL), and in so doing, re-read this post from dgreen. He covers important territory, about the amount of material removal common on a jointer.
Remember, with a planer you're running material that is flat on one side, and has those determined little rollers pushing the material across the cutterhead with even, consistent pressure, at a constant speed. Seems like you're asking your jointer to do what a planer is more designed for?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
Oh, I read that one from Dgreen, and I'm glad that you agree. It is interesting to me the range of answers, all centering around what I suspected was the case. Perhaps it is my background in construction or my blockheadeness (gee is that a word?) but I have found that through experimentation, necessity, and others experiences that what is recommended and what is possible, but still safe & sane can be two different things. There was article, posted by FWW about cutting tapered legs on the jointer. ( http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2509) In it is a recommendation that one take a large bite (over 1/4") with the jointer. I used that technique, as described, on Brazilian Cherry, with no ill effects. I do admit to being more than a bit frightened, feeding at what I recall as 3/8". (I'll check on that) I could see where that might get ugly, but it worked fine.
Thanks again for all your help!Best, JohnPS. The generic "Allevert" works great!
Yes, John, blockheadedness is definitely a word. ROFL!!! What scares me is I'm beginning to develop a slight affinity for blockheads. Been with hubby too long.
Carpal tunnel syndrome: OK, now we're in an area I know all too well. Have had surg on both hands. So, what've you done for it??? Losing feeling to the extent you have is a very, very, very bad sign!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
My problem is twofold. First of all is finances. I am the sole supporter of six, and the recoup time would be beyond what I could do right now. I am taking steps to change my profession, but that will not bear fruit for a year or more. Two, I am not completely convinced that CTS is the main gig. I was injured in a car accident a few years ago, that tweaked my neck a bit. At first it was tough, it was like my head was too heavy all of a sudden and when I went to bed, my arm would tingle something awful. The worst was if I had a few days of heavy framing or demolition, the nerve that runs from my neck to my arm, (it actually loops under the shoulderblade) would become so inflamed that it was lying down on a rope. I would take Advil, with mixed results. So until I can get out of this end of construction, I will continue to pick and choose my battles. How did surgery go for you? I was told 6 - 8 weeks recovery and for what I do, up to twelve.Thanks,John
I'm not sure how much a neck or back injury can influence CTS, but the symptoms for CTS are pretty specific: numbness or tingling is generally more serious in the morning when you wake up, and concentrated in the thumb and first two fingers. I first realized how serious my hand was when I couldn't pick up a spoon for cereal in the morning. Oooops, oh dear. That's another symptom: loss of "squeezing" strength.
If you have lost feeling in your hand in general there could very well be other stuff going on. For instance, damage to the radial nerve will produce very different symptoms that damage to the median nerve. I know there's at least one orthopedist here at Knots, maybe he'll speak up?
The problem with continuing to work when there's a nerve (and muscles) that aren't functioning properly (such as your traps or various shoulder girdle muscles) is that other parts of your body try to compensate, and everything gets fouled up.
Are you in a situation where you can't get medical treatment (insurance issues), or just can't take extended time off for surgery? First thing to do is figure out exactly what's wrong (do not assume it's CTS! Very important!), and then set about getting treatment. I have had a huge amount of experience with neck, back (upper, lower and inbetween) and arm problems, due to both repetitive work and to extremely heavy physical work, and car accidents. When there's a problem, I seek help almost exclusively from highly qualified sport medicine docs! IMHO, they are the most up-to-date on body mechanics, diagnosis and highly successful treatment options. They know how to work with physical therapists and know where to find the great ones, not just the people who do ultrasound and excercise.
T'were I in your situation, insurance permitting, I'd work on the diagnosis first. Problem with putting it off toooooo long is that once nerves get really debilitated, they might not come back and you're stuck with numbness and loss of function. Sometimes, a highly qualified physical therapist ends up doing the really nitty-gritty identification of what's exactly wrong. If you have a tendon or muscle that tends to turn into a frozen rope, someone who's exceptional at very deep tissue work and myofascial release might be your best bet, or at least get you started
Re: surgery, I had mine in the late 1980's when CT surg was quite the "open" procedure, and took an extended period of recuperation. My understanding is that they are now doing it arthroscopically and the recovery is much quicker. Should only be done by a highly experienced hand surgeon.
From your description and background so far, I'd really caution you not to assume it's CTS. Best of luck!
PS: No, I'm not a doctor, but I did sleep in a Holiday In Express last night, ROFL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I read the article you linked to and could not find anything about taking a big cut. It says set the jointer to take a light cut to clean up the saw marks.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Dear D,
My apologies, I was going on what's left of my memory! I have it printed out in the shop, I will review and see if there was a point there somewhere!John
John, most of us buy 4/4 rough lumber to get finished lumber at 3/4" +-. If you take off 5/16" in the first pass, you are already smaller than 3/4" and you haven't touched the other side of the board. I guess you must be intending to mill 3/8", or less, out of 4/4. We all know the importance of taking equal amounts off both faces of your stock to prevent warping. A 5/16" cut makes this more difficult.If you take too light a cut with a jointer, 1/32" or less, the knives may not fully contact the lumber and the blades will dull quickly. If you take a heavy enough cut to stall the motor, you can burn out the commutator in your motor as well as put excessive strain on all the machines components. It's not necessary to get the face 100% surfaced on the jointer. You just need a flat bearing surface to reference to the planer tables. The planer does a better job of surfacing than a jointer.The jointer has a rotating cutter head and you push the stock against the rotation. If you let go of the board, guess which way it will go. There can be a number of things that cause you to lose your grip on the lumber. The piece may be too small, the cut too deep, something in the piece that gets hung up, knot, nail, etc. The worst jointer kickback injury I have seen was during a non typical use. The person wanted to cut the hollow in a trestle table foot. His idea was to lower the infeed and outfeed tables, drop the work on the machine, progress to the other end and lift off. This can be done, although there are many better/safer ways. This person did not clamp a stop block to the jointer tables, the guard was removed due to the nature of the cut. When he lowered the piece on the jointer with this deep cut, the board was kicked out of his hands and he shoved the palm of his hand right into the blades. My advice would be to slow down. Your machines will last longer, you will be safer and most importantly, the lumber you are milling will come out better. I worked in a cabinet shop that had a heavy duty flattener, essentially an auto feed jointer. 10 HP, 3 phase industrial giant. 5/16" would have been too deep a cut for this machine. With a lighter cut, your cutters will be in better shape when it comes time to edge joint, which is where you want a 100% accurate cut.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Dear Hammer,
I have been working with 2x stock, figure 8/4 rough. I have been taking 5/16 on the initial edge pass and 1/8" on the face. I have made probably 40 or so passes at 5/16, stalling three times. The species is Atlantic White Cedar which is fairly soft. Overall I have had good results. Like you mentioned, I use the planer for my final surface. I only flatten & square on the jointer. Your description of "hollowing" is excruciating. I was wincing as I read it! One advantage of my wounds is that I pretty much have to clamp everything. I know that if I had never had this problem, that my tendency is to "just do it". Thanks for input!Best,John
When he lowered the piece on the jointer with this deep cut, the board was kicked out of his hands and he shoved the palm of his hand right into the blades.
Wow. The first accident I've heard of that was fully as dumb as mine. I hope he was OK.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Dear John,
I think that we have chatted before. Oh, I am all too familiar with TS kick back! In fact, when at my cabinet saw, right in my line of sight, I keep the last cabinet door that got spit off at me. I wrote in big letters "IN A HURRY?" on it. No I am not interested in jointer kickback, except avoiding it. So, you don't think that 5/16" could be safely taken on a stronger machine? That seems to be the thought of the group. Would you agree?Best,John
Well, my jointer is only marginally more powerful than yours. I've never approached a stall, even jointing 8" in cherry or maple. My understanding of the purpose of the jointer has led me to semi-permanently set the infeed table to a very small "bite", under a 1/16". If I want to take off 1/4", I'll use the bandsaw or TS, as the jointer isn't really made for dimensioning.
Above my cabinet saw, in my line of sight, is displayed a pair of bloody, torn gloves from my TS accident, together with the hospital bracelets from the ER and the day of the tendon repair surgery.
One effect of this stupid mistake I made is, I generally follow "standard" recommendations for machine use, unless I have an amazing compelling reason to diverge. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Dear John,
"Above my cabinet saw, in my line of sight, is displayed a pair of bloody, torn gloves from my TS accident, together with the hospital bracelets from the ER and the day of the tendon repair surgery." ............................... WOW! I didn't avoid that by much myself. One reason why I am saving my nickels for a "Sawstop". Glad that you can still work. I understand your advise about "standard" operation. That was the purpose of this post, to find out what is correct. Books and manuals are nice, but experience is where I place my money. I have my own reasons for attempting to minimize passes at the jointer. A partial loss of feeling in my dominate hand, aggravated by "carpel tunnel syndrome". The jointer, in particular is difficult for me, and the less passes that I have to make, the better. That coupled with this is my livlihood......time = $. So I try to balance haste with waste. Thanks for input. I appreciate it.John
Hi, John, thanks for taking my dig with good humor. From scanning through the answers Richard, Steve and the others provided, sounds like you've got the normal 'splained well.
Once I've paid for a machine and brought it home, my useage habits aren't based on what the machine "should" do; I listen to the machine (whether it's a drill or a jointer or a lawnmower) and take it to it's limit of efficient work, not it's physical limit. For sure, if the machine has a fault I would take it back. But to frequently push it to the point that it stalls or nearly stalls is completely counterproductive, IMHO. By the same token, if it appeared I simply picked the wrong model for my needs (not strong enough), then a new selection would be in order.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear FG,
Oh, you've not bruised me, my friend. Yours is one of the few really cherished opinions and I know that you mean me no harm. You've always had a kind word and a helpful suggestion, and I appreciate it. In response to your comments, it would seem that "normal" is a bit less common than I would of hoped for! No matter. What I was driving at was I simply doing something that was a wrong technique or was I using a sound technique, but on the wrong machine? One could argue that ripping 8/4 maple on a Makita TS is a bad idea, but the same operation on a cabinet saw is no big deal. One thing that I think makes me question myself is that with the reduced feeling in my dominate hand, I don't "feel" what is happening the way I would like to. With the dust collector and hearing protection, I don't even hear the jointer cut, so I can't tell what is going on, the way I would like to. I agree that pushing the machines to stall, is bad all the way around. I am trying to avoid repeats. Thanks again, for your input.Best,John
Dear Rich,
If I had a jointer with a 2 or 3 HP motor, would you still think that 5/16" is too much? If so, why? Most 3 HP planers will allow more than 1/8" be taken in one pass, at full width. So why not with a jointer? What machine do you use? What are your experiences?Thanks!John
John, you are correct in thinking you're trying to take too much in one go. A larger more powerful machine will handle a bigger cut. I will take off up 6 or 8 mm with the first cut if a board is severely in winding or otherwise needing extreme bow, warp, etc., taken out in a hurry. Sometimes it's really the only way to get very badly out of flat piece of wood flat on a machine. This is largely due to the configuration of tables and cutters-- handplaning techniques make it easier to work on localised areas in a board than machines often do.
But, and here's the rub, I'll only use these extreme deep settings on the first cut, and the machines I use are very big too and can handle it. These extreme cuts you can appreciate are only skimming off high spots and not taking anything like a full cut all across and all along a long wide plank. I couldn't handle the rearward force of the cutters in the latter situation.
With your small machine you'll need to scale back the depth of cut settings from what you've been trying to use. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
John, I have never used a jointer with one of these heads, but I suspect that the carbide inserts have a wider sharpness angle, as well as lowering the cutting angle. Both of these measures are great for reducing chip tear-out in hardwoods, but call for about 30% more power.
Aside from that, you should always listen to your equipment, and don't bog it down so much. Since you have made that change, I would suggest that you go ahead and invest in a 2 hp motor with a larger pulley to boost rpms a little. It sounds like you would like to feed faster than this little machine can take with that motor.
Maybe Rick L will check in on this. He probably has information on this.
It really shouldn't use up any more power with an insert cutterhead. I talked with Byrd on this. You have 6 rows of inserts but only two inserts are contacting the wood at any moment. Their thoughts and previous test with an amp meter and straight and insert heads was the same or less power was required. Seems I recall PM used to claim their segmented head used less power since you didn't have a full knife contacting the wood at the same time like a straight knife.
One HP should be plenty for a little 6" jointer. Sounds like too much of a cut and or feedspeed. Another contributing factor could be slightly lower voltage and wire size and distance from the main power source. We used to mount ampmeters on straight line rips to monitor blade sharpeness but that really wouldn't have any use here. Motor bogging down is a clear sign of being overworked as long as your wire and such are fine.
you're an idiot...or maybe just completely ignorant of basic woodworking methods...
there are plenty of self taught woodworkers out there who have managed to figure out that taking a 5/16 cut with a 1hp jointer is not a prudent thing to do...
take a class, read a book, watch an instructional DVD...but do something to educate yourself on the capabilities of your machines before you hurt yourself or someone else who has the misfortune to be in your shop...
sorry, but #### like this really pisses me off.....
I don't believe that was call for. Just take a deep breath or two. You don't know anything about John, and how hard he is probably having to work to feed his family. He may be under a lot of pressure to produce as much work as he can to make ends meet. Your remarks have nothing productive to offer here.I think it may be a good idea to go back and read the agreement that you signed to gain access to this forum.
Dear Keith,
I appreciate the back up!John
I am curious. Although, I am not sure that opening a conversation with calling me an idiot is all that nice, I appreciate your passion on the subject. I'm not sure why my actions have angered you so much, but I think that I have followed a fairly logical course:1) I tried something new on my tool and was puzzled by the results. Rather than assume that I knew the answer, I posed it to the group.I'm not sure that I see the "error of my ways". I am more than upfront about my actions, so why all the bluster? Wow, we should discuss TS techniques sometime. I'll bet that I would really have you freaked out!But getting back to your comments, I would suggest that your response is in direct contradiction to your advise. You suggest that I attempt to educate myself, which I have by posing the question to the group and you call me names? How does that worK?Best,John
Please back off !!! For your own safety and to improve the quality of your cuts. As to the question in another post about why jointers would allow deep cuts, most are set up so you can cut rabbet joints in one pass. this calls for a deep cut. A good rule of thumb on any machine is to never but never stall a machine!!!!!
Way too much per pass.
John, it seems that there has been a cease fire.Hopefully you are not in a shell-shocked state,as a number of rounds were bang on target- I mean there was some good advice.
I would like to add that I think you should re-visit the idea of a feeder, as you have mentioned some problems with hand mobility, and especially if you still want to do much surfacing of boards. I think there have many threads about auto feeders on this forum for you to research.
Now, not wishing to set goblins or even the odd troll or two amongst the er, fairies I want to mention that it is quite feasible to take cuts of 1/2 inch or more or up to the adjustment limit, with a jointer, but usually this is done on edge or on widths not exceeding about 2 inches-even to do stopped cuts like this. Before an air strike is called I hasten to add that the Rate of Feed has to be co-ordinated in order not to choke the cutters or overload the motor if it is the typical small non-industrial jointer, PLUS, the knives need to be properly set and sharp. One may require to do this type of cut when making profiled stair posts or similar items. As has been mentioned, for normal surfacing it is better to take relatively small cuts in the range 1mm to 3mm or so.
Hope this helps.
Dear Philip,
Thank you for weighing in on this. As far as shell shocked goes, no, I think that I will survive. Twenty years of construction, coupled with a less than Sterling background, I think that I am OK. I thought that I was going to tear up at one point, but I was able to fight it back.I don't know if it is just me, or what, but I do get a kick out of people who insist that something CAN"T be done! I learned a long time ago that someone with an experience is NEVER at the mercy of someone with a theory. Thank you for confirming that the laws of physics are not being warped solely at my shop and that there are other areas of the Earth in which a cut greater than 1/8" can be made! As mentioned my "deep" cuts were on edge and 1/8" off of the face. It seemed strange that clearly listed on virtually every jointer specification that I have seen lists a maximum cut. Most list it at 1/2".Now, Philip, I'm with you, should the townspeople show up with torches and pitchforks! (They'll get over it!)Best,John
Edited 6/28/2006 3:36 pm ET by Jmartinsky
Maximum depth of cut on my 3 HP 8" jointer (Grizzly G0490) is 1/8".
Of course, it would be interesting to know how manufacturers determine this specification. It's probably a mix of the same factors discussed here, along with liability concerns.
It's sort of like tensioning a bandsaw blade with the flutter method: Tension per your guide, then back off until it gets squirrely, add back in a little tension and call it done. Hard to apply with a jointer, though -- if you take bigger bites until it gets squirrely, you might determine your outer limits in a pretty scary way. For me, it works OK to just follow standard practice. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Dear John,
I checked Grizzly's website. WOW, that is a nice machine! Seems like a steal at under 1K! How do you like the longer infeed table? What is thinking behind that?I looked at a few of Grizzly's jointers and they list the following maximum cuts as:1) G0586 8" Jointer w/2 HP Motor .................................................................1/2"
2) G9859Z 8" Z Series Jointer w/ Spiral Cutterhead .....................................5/16"
3) G1182ZHW 6" x 47" Super Jointer w/ Handwheels - Z Series ................... 1/2"Most of their bigger machines are cleared for 5/16", but the rest are listed at 1/8".It would be interesting to know how they arrived at that specs.Best,John
The long table is exactly why I wanted it (plus I work with >6" stock so my old jointer wasn't wide enough) -- that and the tall, long fence which helps me put those 90° edges on. Both the infeed and outfeed tables are longer than most of my stock, because I rough cut to length prior to jointing, so I get quick, excellent results. Even a board with wind straightens right up, and that should hold true even if I start to use much longer boards.
I don't like the belt slap when the thing winds down, but other than that I'm very happy with the machine.
BTW the machine this replaced was the G1182ZHW, which had less vibration. I also liked the handwheels much better than this lever-adjust machine.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John, since I have been stricken with machine mania since an early age I always have examined them whenever possible-I believe one gets a LOT of machine for the price paid in the case of Grizzly and I now no longer refer to them as Frizzilys (well not as often).Even if there are one or two things not up to scratch these can usually be sorted -eg the belt slap- as the basis is there.
John is wondering about how the manufacturers arrived at those max cut depths- I speculate that in the case of Grizzly they have specified 1/8inch on the smaller machines because these are aimed at a different market, and they are paranoid about potential safety issues: they figure that there is less chance of self damage like that.Philip Marcou
You may be right, but the specifications seem to vary rather wildly. The G0490, an 8" jointer with a 3 HP motor, is specified for 1/8" maximum. The G0586, an 8" jointer with a 2 HP motor, is specified for 1/2" maximum, as is the G1182ZHW (6", 1 HP). But the G0480, 10" and 3 HP, is also limited to 1/8". At the big end, the 16" 5 HP G9953 (1700 lbs) is limited to 5/16" (just over half the cut allowed on the 6" consumer machine).
So they seem to be all over the map in terms of what they're willing to advise customers is safe.
I suspect that in the end, as with most safety-related decisions in woodworking, the woodworker's personal risk/efficiency balance will end up determining the manner of work.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
not sure why i'm bothering, but i'm fairly sure that the "maximum depth of cut" refers to the distance the table can be adjusted below the highest point of the knife in the cutterhead...NOT the recomended amount of material that should be removed in a single cut....
so if you were, for instance, making a sled foot for a trestle table you could do a stopped cut with your jointer to relieve up to the "maximum depth of cut" from the center of the sled foot....
you wil notice this figure also typically corresponds with the rabbiting capacity of a given machine, because that is as low as the table will go...
i half heartedly apologize for the tone of my remarks earlier, but i tend to suffer fools lightly...
if you are indeed persitent in taking that volume of material off in one pass then knock yourself out, i just hope others who read of your methods might be more prudent...
Dear C,
You bother because, you care!! (I am touched :-) ) Apology accepted! I noticed the difference as well, re: rabbiting vs. maximum cut, but have drawn a different conclusion. To me, I read it as it is written. "Maximum Cut" means maximum and "Rabbiting" means rabbiting. They are listed separately for each machine and sometimes that are the same, sometimes not. How they arrived at all that, I have no idea.I have had good results and have made better than 40 passes @ 5/16 and possibly hundreds @ 1/8". The machine never even blinked at the 1/8" cuts although I probably feed a bit slowly. When jointing hardwoods, I usually take 1/8" cuts on edge and 1/16" or less on face cuts. This was a different situation using a softwood. Although somewhat a newbie in the shop, (I hope to always be a newbie) power tools are not new to me. I have been working in construction for better than twenty years and handle tools eight to ten hours a day, five to six days a week. I know all about calculated risks. That being said I NEVER assume that I know it all. Never.........That is why I reach out to you and others to see what others experiences are. I appreciate your advice and your admonishments. Whether we agree or not is not all that important. I don't expect to agree with all of my peers, in fact, I hope that we do disagree at times. That sparks debate and the free exchange of ideas. That is how we all learn, or those of us who choose to learn! Thank you for participating in the educational process!Best,John
Not to offend anybody so this is to ALL, Here is a point to ponder, How much room do you have between the leading edge of the knife and the Gib, Mine measures 1/8" And how much room do you think you need for chip evacuation ?? Thats why My jointer is set for 1/32 most of the time and sometimes 1/16. Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Let me see if I got this one straight. I could no longer keep from chipping in, as there is just soooo much going on here. First of all let me say this - Lets say over the course of the day you find yourself at the jointer 20 times. Each time you have a board that is 4 feet long and in need of only minimal stock removal to get flat and square. We will call 3/16 from each plane minimal. At 1/16 depth that's 3 passes per plane per board for a total of six. Say each board takes 30 seconds (tried it, its accurate) we're looking at a total of 10 minutes. Now we do it your way - depth at 5/16 on edge and 1/8 on face. Three passes total for 10 seconds (oh wait slow down the feed rate and make it 20!) For an amateur mathematician (and speller) like myself, it just doesn't seem that your experience is getting you anywhere. Speaking of experience - "I learned a long time ago that someone with an experience is NEVER at the mercy of someone with a theory"If the below quote is the experience your referring to -"I have had good results and have made better than 40 passes @ 5/16 and possibly hundreds @ 1/8". The machine never even blinked at the 1/8" cuts although I probably feed a bit slowly. When jointing hardwoods, I usually take 1/8" cuts on edge and 1/16" or less on face cuts. This was a different situation using a softwood."I have a theory myself, which of course I wouldn't want you to be beholden two - One day your gonna loose some fingers and being the sole provider for a family of five is gonna get a hell of a lot harder. Wouldn't you rather be at the mercy of this theory? As far as what can and cant be done, forget about all the other machines you are reading about here. They are great intellectual candy but according to your own experience - "I stalled the jointer three times, on edge and I realize that I am probably asking a bit much of my machine."Stop being stubborn - set the jointer at a 1/16. Hell, while your at it - Take a shorter lunch break, stop sanding to 6000, let the answering machine pick up the phone, stop agonizing over 1/64 of an inch, save your chats with the mailman for later, sweep once a week, etc, etc. People have such wonderful ideas about efficiency!! Never ceases to amaze me, but hey, I just saved you an hour.
Dear H,
First of all do not take lunch breaks, or vacations, I never EVER sand beyond 220, nor do I prance or sashe' :-) OK, I'll walk through it again. Rough 2x6s Call it 8/4 x 7. 18 pieces at 9' each. On Edge: Approximately two passes per piece, sometimes three.
Face: One to three passes. My "hundreds" on the face cuts is not solely from this project. I cut 1/8" pretty regularly. If did it your way, I would of been making at least three passes on edge, per board, then I would of had to rip them, then joint them again. The reason for the heavy cuts was to get the stock under 6" so that I could face it and then send it through the planer. My way, eliminated moving the stock around to several locations, for different operations. If feasible, then it is less wear & tear on me.As to "losing fingers", perhaps, if I was using small pieces of material. I would not of attempted the 5/16" cut with a piece of 1x. The 2x stock gave me the mechanical advantage over the jointer as proved by the stalls. Now perhaps a beefier machine would not of stalled, but I am not convinced that it would of done anything ugly either. Not with the material that I was using. Maple, maybe, but not with the cedar, IMHO. I fully admit to a stubborn streak, but not in this case. I really didn't except the response that I got from this post, nor did I expect to be attacked, which I clearly was. In my circle of friends, if someone is doing something that needs to be addressed, we take them under our wing and in a loving, kindly way, show them a better way. Attacking someone where I come from, is old school and reeks of ignorance, not mention more than a little dangerous. Typically the attacker has nothing to offer other than the attack. I suppose that these faceless, anonymous forums can cause some to get brave, but I have heard only a couple of posts that offer any information as to why the cuts that I made was so dangerous. Even your post doesn't offer much in the way of criticism, other than to slow down. Which, granted is always good advice. OK, I'm out!Best,John
"In my circle of friends, if someone is doing something that needs to be addressed, we take them under our wing and in a loving, kindly way, show them a better way."
maybe that's the problem, you are just used to a different method of communication than most of us...In my circle of friends if someone is doing something that needs to be addressed (stupid/dangerous) we say "hey that's stupid/dangerous, do it this way, or this way, or find a better way, or don't do it around me... if they continue to perform the offensive action it becomes "hey dumbass you are going to hurt yourself or someone else if you continue to be that stupid" after that it becomes "get out of my shop until you can pull your head out of your ####"...
maybe not as "loving" and "kindly" as you are used to but still all done with the persons best interest at heart...
it's funny, but you'll notice a similar progression in the responses to your post in this thread.
At this point i've determined that you are beyond reasonong with so i'd like to lovingly and kindly wish you the best of luck.
And since you're going to go ahead with this line of thinking, you might as well go all in...I'd go ahead and find a 10hp motor and strap it to your 6in machine...maybe grind back the tables at the throat to allow for proper removal of waste (go deep enough and you could even sell the chips as door shims)...make sure to keep those blades real sharp too...
if your going to put yourself in a position to encourage feeding your hand into the jointer might as well make sure takes it all the way down to the nub...no point in half assing anything...
Dear C,
"In my circle of friends if someone is doing something that needs to be addressed (stupid/dangerous) we say "hey that's stupid/dangerous, do it this way, or this way, or find a better way, or don't do it around me... if they continue to perform the offensive action it becomes "hey dumbass you are going to hurt yourself or someone else if you continue to be that stupid" after that it becomes "get out of my shop until you can pull your head out of your ####"..."
As I recall, you launched with "your an idiot". Now see, in my circle of friends, that type of talk will cost you some teeth. Unless we happen to be good friends and have earned some respect, which is not the case here. You have offered very little beyond "you're doing it wrong". That is fine, if you can't give me a better explanation than that, then leave it at that. So, again, thank you for your participation, but I can see that your advice is limited. Perhaps we'll do better on another subject. Best,John
I have been quietly watching this thread since the beginning, sometimes with disbelief, sometimes with horror, sometimes just shaking my head and wondering if there are truly some people out there who will ask for advice and then take every opportunity to refute it when it is offered by attacking those from whom it was solicited.
The last posting by cscwen seems to most accurate express my sentiments. I would only add the following:
Concerning one of your earlier posts - you stated, "where I come from, is old school and reeks of ignorance". All I can say is that when it comes to ignorance you are, with out a doubt, the most personally experienced authority on the subject I have ever encountered.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Dear Rennie,
That is all SO helpful. That's fine, swing away. I asked a fairy mundane question and I get jumped with name calling. Very little about as to why what I did was SO wrong. Telling me that I am foolish or anything else really doesn't have anything to do with my question. I stand by my statement that beating someone up for asking a question IS old school and reeks of ignorance. Tradesmen have been using that for years and it is a shield because they are afraid to teach or are unable. The truly skilled individual will come along side someone and explain to the apprentice, the correct way to do things and why. No name calling, no attacks. I have very little tolerance for that in the field and I don't expect to be treated that way here. If everyone hear is so skilled, and from the pics that I've seen, there are some tremendously skilled people out there, then there is no need to attack a person. You want to disagree, that is fine, but personal attacks are unproductive and in my opinion, juvenile.Best,John
I'm puzzled at your last reply, which is a sarcastic rejoinder aimed at Rennie whose previous message was basically a statement suggesting that we hold off on judgement. There wasn't a hint of a personal attack that I could see.
Jmartinski
About a year ago I was acting as GC for an expansion on our church. As GC I was responsible for the writing and letting of all contracts. Being somewhat safety conscious, I made a point of including language in all my contracts regarding the need for safe behavior and the use of all available safety devices on the job site.
One of the contractors I hired (to install a fire sprinkler system) cut all his metal pipe with a large Makita miter saw equipped with an abrasive disk. He absolutely refused to wear any eye protection. I would have been happy for safety glasses even though his own company policy required the use of a full face shield. He insisted that during the cut he would always look away and therefore negated the need for eye protection.
After telling him three times (starting with 'kindly' and working up to something a bit stronger) that he had no choice in the matter and that if he did not comply I would throw him off the job site he packed up his miter saw and cut every pipe still needed with a hack saw.
His stubbornness to conform to the standards of safe work and to take reasonable precautions only resulted in his working harder and longer.
Reading over the many posts to your original question I see the same pattern. Many have offered advice, caution, and reasonable discourse - some "kindly" and some not. However, regardless of the tone of the post you have stubbornly and steadfastly held to your belief that the experience and knowledge of the combined minds of this forum are in error and you are right.
The fellow I threatened to toss off my job site eventually got the job done, late and somewhat more tired than necessary. However, he left my job site with both eyes and all 10 fingers still in good working order. I can only pray that this has not changed, though I know his attitude and stubbornness will continue to temp fate until it eventually catches up with him.
I belive I speak for all those who have posted to your question that our hope for you is the same - that you will end each day in the shop with 10 digits and two eyes, all in good working order. Most of us have been around long enough to understand that there are some practices that are inherently unsafe and we try to avoid these and, given the opportunity, warn others about them. Misleading manuals, air conditioners, and your own personal "luck" in taking large bites aside, the consensus here has been that this practice is inherently unsafe and will eventually have disastrous results. Please reconsider your stance.
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 6/30/2006 9:27 am by Rennie
Incredibly well said.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you - The same should have been said for your posts.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Dear Rennie,
Now see, THAT"S how to do it! I agree with FG that is was VERY well said. Anyone can take that to the bank. Even the gentleman that you were trying to correct, at least you started out nicely, and for the record, I think that you were totally justified. As a contractor, I'm sure that some of "safety" procedures would horrify the masses. You know like closing your eyes on an "iffy" shoot. (Like your eyelid is going to stop the nail!) In my old age, I have mellowed a bit, but, I do believe that if someone else id determined to hurt themselves, on their dime, then that is their business. That being said, I also believe that there is not always a "universal" code of what is safe. Take pushsticks. People use them all the time on the TS. Not me. I wouldn't even consider it. My method, of which I have been bashed before, is to make the 1/2 the way or better, lift the material off the blade, (Yep, no guard either), flip the piece and complete the cut. If I don't have enough length to pull that off without getting my hands over the TS top, I get a longer piece. My method is to never get my hands on the TS top, never mind near the blade. I am not recommending it, but it is a method that I have used for years, without incident. Now before anyone jumps me on that, I say to save it for when I start a new thread on free handing on the TS.OK, enough of that. Rennie, I appreciate what has been said, I greatly appreciate those who take the time to write and to share their experiences. I truly do appreciate those who are trying to point out that what I am doing could be dangerous. I simply am not convinced by the arguments that I have heard, mainly because they do not line up with what I have experienced. No one has gotten on and said, "oh yeah, I tried that, don't do that. I am typing with my nose because the jointer ate both my hands". Not even close. What I have heard is that it is wrong becauese......................why? The owners manual? If I start a post about TS techniques, guaranteed someone, including myself can chime in about horror stories. The closest to actually discussing facts has been Mr Jones who actually has experienced some bad news on the jointer making heavy cuts, and Mr. White who has asked some good questions and has noted that this is not such an outlandish idea after all.Rennie, again I appreciate it, but I am not convinced, that is all. No big deal.Thanks, in particular for making a kind, but powerful argument.John
I see now, and I understand. Well executed.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Well...Well...Well...This is a fine mess you have gotten us into Ollie.........
And I emphsize MESS. I have read all 100 plus posts to this thread. And I still can not seem to understand one small detail. Who the heck cares if this guy stalls his jointer, experiences kick back or just is plain unwilling to listen to good sense from most all the Knotters. Hey, I do not want to see or hear of anyone getting hurt. That would be a true shame. But if he wants to continue to push the envelope with more HP or a better blade or whatever---- let him. Simply who cares.
I must say the whole thread is VERY amusing. One of the better ones for amusement not learning.
Take care,Thank you,
Cheatah
if he wants to continue to push the envelope with more HP or a better blade or whatever---- let him. Simply who cares.
We don't have to let anyone do anything... everyone here makes their own choices. I can think of one good reason conflict escalates here: People continue to flog a dead horse so that other observers of the thread, trying to understand the general consensus on a topic, will get a fairly representative idea of the "standard practices."
I don't think anyone is genuinely trying to make John say "uncle" and admit he's wrong, or get him to sign a Boy Scout Pledge and solemnly promise not to cut more than 1/8" or whatever. They're trying to present logical reasons for other readers to follow the standard practices rather than emulate John's method. It always makes sense, when you're writing a post, to consider not only the addressee, but other readers as well. If you've nothing to say to other readers, why not click the button that sends the message privately? :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Well said.Best,John
JD--
I hear ya and understand. But with this thread........it has gone way beyond getting other readers to understand best practices. I t borders on silliness and with out a doubt redundancy between post and among writers.
I also advocate that the more discussion, the better. This one just seems like it has lost its value to provide other readers good information to learn from...other than less is more.
With that -- I am done particiapting in this particular thread.
Hope all had a wonderfull 4th of July Holdiay.Thank you,
Cheatah
"oh yeah, I tried that, don't do that. I am typing with my nose because the jointer ate both my hands"The tab key on my keyboard ate the end of my nose in a horrific accident. Now I type with a chisel that I hold between my teeth.
Dear Mike,
ROFL!!!John
Rennie, I don't want to split hairs here, but are you stating that taking a cut of about5/16ths on edge (say 3/4 to 1 inch) is inherently unsafe?Philip Marcou
Phillip,
"are you stating that taking a cut of about5/16ths on edge (say 3/4 to 1 inch) is inherently unsafe?"
I wold not presume to say so as my experience pales in the presence of many others on this forum. What I meant to infer was that the consensus of those who had posted felt that way. I do believe that some practices are inherently unsafe (my example of the fellow who would look away from the miter saw so to avoid having to wear eye protection), but in this case I was simply siding with the majority.
I would not take more than 1/8" per cut on my 1.5 HP 6" jointer, but I tend to be cautious and prefer to err on the side of safety.
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 7/1/2006 6:21 pm by Rennie
Skipping over all of the arguing that this has generated, explain what happened when you "stalled" your jointer. At least some of the responders have come to strong conclusions without a clear understanding of what happened since few details were offered.
1. Did the head stop spinning but the motor continued to rotate?
2. Did the motor itself stop spinning and hum loudly and start up again the moment you took the wood away from the cutter head?
3. Did the thermal over load on the motor, or in the magnetic switch cut out, killing the power to the motor, and requiring the switch to be reset or cool off before the machine would be restart?
Taking 5/16 inch off of the edge of a cedar 2x shouldn't be stalling your machine, it's a heavy cut but not one I would expect to stall a 1 HP motor, something isn't adding up.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
But John, he will be at even greater risk if he tightens the belts.
You are jumping ahead here, which is precisely my point. Nobody knows the details of how the machine "stalled", but everyone is offering opinions about technique and safety without any facts to back them up.
I never mentioned the word "belts" and haven't suggested that he tighten them up. For that matter, I don't even know if he is at "risk" as you imply, nobody was hurt, the jointer just stopped for some unexplained reason.
I don't know why the jointer stalled, that's why I asked a few detailed questions. "Its pointless to speculate until you have the facts" to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, and I'm going to wait until I have some before I make any suggestions.
In any case,leaving the belts loose is not good for the machine and is far too unreliable to be depended upon for safety.
John W.
John makes a valid point. I, too, feel we have (perhaps) rushed a bit - egged on by the tenor of some of the responses. Let's hear what the man has to say. Perhaps we have all missunderstood him. There might be a reason for the stall beyond the amount of material being removed.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Here is a quote from the manual for that machine.
35. Do not make cuts deeper than 1/2" when
rabbeting. On other cuts such as edging,
surfacing, etc., depth of cut should not be over
1/8" to avoid overloading the machine and to
minimize chance of kickback.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
If you took a 1/8 inch deep cut across the width of a 6 inch wide board, which the manual reportedly allows, you would be removing about 20% more wood per pass than than taking a 5/16" pass down the length of a 2" wide board. Given that the wood was cedar, which is a very easy to machine wood, it simply didn't seem likely that he was overloading the machine.
The recent revelation, in response to my questions, that the jointer was on a 20 amp circuit being shared with an air conditioner would seem to explain the cause of the stalling, the combined load of the two machines on the circuit breaker was causing it to trip, the jointer itself was not being mechanically overloaded.
The question about whether or not it was a safe practice is an entirely different topic, which I haven't addressed, but the stalling itself was not an indication that he was overloading the machine or necessarily doing something dangerous, it was, as it turns out, probably an electrical supply problem.
John White
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe there has been any "jumping ahead" concerning the safety of super heavy jointer cuts. There has been unfortunate name calling, but the forum has got the basic safety issue right, in my opinion.
This issue isn't at all whether stalling was due to loose belts or defective motors or electrics, but that when someone pretty much goes out of his way to continue to assert the desirability of unsafe jointer practices, it just doesn't seem like a good thing to aid that end. I just mentioned belt tightening as a short hand way of pointing that out, not meant to be taken so literally as a diagnosis.
No one has been hurt--YET. As a guy with a slightly lopsided finger tip from a brush with a jointer many years ago I sure would have been glad to have had someone point out the error of my ways in advance.
Besides, stalling of the jointer and why it stalled wasn't an issue. The issue is that taking such large bites, stalling occasionally or not, is a pretty unsafe practice. There is no jumping ahead in saying that taking 5/16th inch deep cuts, even edge jointing (albeit with 2" stock) and even in cedar, isn't a safe practice. We didn't just infer the bite was too large from the stalling, the 5/16th depth of cut was stated--as was the fact that this was a hand fed jointer. What more information is needed? What does the Taunton shop safety manual say concerning depth of cut on a hand fed jointer?
On a lighter note- I am quite happy to see the thread carry right on , loose belts and all-as long as Jmartinksky does not turn out to be Bananatree or another drill press saga. It should be thrashed out-not the poster-unless he turns out to be an imposter, in which case he must thoroughly flushed away.Philip Marcou
Could you enlighten me on "Bananatree" & " drill press saga"? What is this talk about an impostor? Is someone passing them-self off as me? Boy, you would think that they could set their sights higher than that!John
Oh, please, let's not. ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
John, I am loathe to go there-just would not want to tempt fate. If you are very curious you can find it in the archives-the thread exteended for over 200 posts if I remember correctly, to cover extended skerfuffles and peripheral cat fights. All instigated by this Bananatree fellow, who did not know when to stop (I have corrupted his pen-name-which he kept changing anyway).
I would nominate the learned Lataxe, orator to the English queen,to write a suitable satire to explain the saga, in answer to your questions, but he was not around at the time-about 9 months ago.Philip Marcou
Dear Philip,
OK, that's enough info! Fair enough!John
Before Lataxe's time I'm pretty sure, philip. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Then it is confirmed that there is nobody up to that mission-we are all tired out.I retire, having made 100.Philip Marcou
Edited 6/30/2006 3:48 am by philip
I could summarise that 200 post long cat fight, philip, but I've no intention of doing so, ha, ha.
---- 101. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
There was another more recent 200+ mayhem in which the Banana Tree was a key element but I am loathe to even mention the title of the thread.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Dear John,
Hey ! A cool head, I'll take that! Actually what would happen is that the cutterhead would slow down and trip the breaker on the panel. I can't hear the motor turning, but I have to believe that the motor slowed as well. Another "knot" had suggested that I check voltage and it occurred to me that I have an AC running on that same circuit. It is a 20 amp circuit, but even in my book that is too much load. The infrequency of the "stalling" leads me to believe that it would trip the breaker when the compressor on the AC cut in. That is a guess, because between the jointer, DC & hearing protection, there is no way that I would hear the AC. Does that make sense?Best,John
"and it occurred to me that I have an AC running on that same circuit. "
"Holy smokes" she says, banging her forehead on the keyboard. ROFL!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/29/2006 8:22 pm by forestgirl
Dear FG,
Oh, come on now, the panel wasn't even smoking! Well not THAT bad anyway..........:-)John
Dear FG,
So then I guess that everyone agrees that as long as I turn the AC off, then I can make my 5/16" cuts all day! Great! John
Now we're all banging our heads on the keyboard. I'll look forward to seeing you on the Darwin awards.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I think John is kidding us.
I think so too.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Punked, indeed, by the Ali G of hobbyist Web site visitors.
The secret to solving technical problems is almost always in asking the right questions. My gut sense was that you simply couldn't stall a one horse motor taking even a heavy pass down the 2" side of a cedar board.
The load from the AC kicking in would very neatly explain the problems you were experiencing, which really wasn't stalling the way I would define it, which is why I asked for details.
Be aware that some cedars will quickly wear out carbide tooling, chemicals in the wood attack the binders in the carbide causing the edges to weaken and disintegrate.
John White
Edited 6/30/2006 10:47 am ET by JohnWW
Dear John,
You are a wise soul. I have worked that little jointer hard, before, but in the winter. Good call. Funny how I didn't put that together. I am a bit surprised that you think that a 1 HP motor is all that powerful Perhaps it is my background which is all with universal motors, which stall, in a heartbeat, or maybe I have gotten all bug-eyed at 3 HP everything! That is pleasing news. I do like my jointer, in particular with the Byrd head. I should of waited for the 8", but that is everyones story! Good call on the 1/8" @ 6" taking more meat than 5/16" @ 2". I don't know if the angle of attack would be too great it I had straight knives, but it really didn't even blink. I didn't know that Cedar could be so bad for carbide. The Byrd cutters seem remarkably robust. Perhaps that is true for all indexed head as well, I don't know. I have jointed IPE, Maple, cherry, the typical hardwoods, even azek & trex (experimental) with no apparent loss of performance. Perhaps i should run some oak or something to clean them, or would the damage already be done?Thanks,John
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