Replies

1. 
   RalphBarker | Oct 14, 2010 09:46am | #1

   At "the home" . . .

   . . . they won't allow you to have sharp objects. Trust me, I know.  ;-)

   I've never had the problem you describe. But, I suppose if your ceiling is well-covered in lights, the reflection of the lights might be over-powering less intense reflections. As Albert said, it's all relative.

1. 
   swenson | Oct 14, 2010 11:15am | #2

   they won't allow sharp objects..

   They already took away my belt and shoelaces... oh wait, I think I'm wearing loafers.  Damn short term... uh...thingy.

2. 
   roc | Oct 14, 2010 10:11pm | #3

   I think what you are experiencing is a magic zone in your shop

   I get the frosted look when I "build up a slurry" on the stone. If I keep the stone wet and clear of significant slurry then the finish is brighter; mirror rather than just smoother. That is looking at it under a single light bulb at close proximity (can very clearly see the watt markings etc. on the bulb in the reflection when a mirror or not when frosted).

   When you see different things in different parts of your shop welllll . . .

   That's magic that is. I'd talk to Voldemort or one of those folk for the particulars.

1. 
   swenson | Oct 14, 2010 10:43pm | #4

   Slurry...

   I was using a Nagura slurry and looking at my face reflected in the back.  Overhead were many many eight foot tubes, enough light to make movies.  Face looked like one in a fogged shaving mirror.  In the "shade" of a corner of the shop the mirror was clear and my 71 year old face, unlined by smoke or strong drink, reflected back at me with the purity of a Fios fiber optic TV and the innocence of a new born baby.

1. 
   roc | Oct 15, 2010 12:06am | #5

   That's Beautiful . . .
   . . . yep . . . magic for sure.

   I think people get kind of confused about the nagura stone and what it's for. Can't blame 'em, there is a bunch of nonsense about it floating around in the wood world.

   Try just doing as I discribed, no nagura, no slurry,lots of water, and see if the mirror doesn't appear even under your nova like work environment.

   Really though, the nagurra is best used to clean the stone between blades and then wash the nagurra off the stone. Trust me on that one I conducted a systematic, scientific, oh just so perfectly marvelous investigation on the most effective use of those little chunks of petrified muck, nagurra stone, and they don't improve the blade they are best used just to clean the stones.

1. 
   swenson | Oct 15, 2010 01:41am | #6

   It's DC's fault.

   I think I got the Nagura slurry bit from David Charlesworth.  I might have missed something as he was talking kinda slow and I think I nodded off for a bit,  So when do I clean with Nagura?  After I flatten the stone it looks clean again anyway.  Also with my new Norton combo 1000 / 8000 I had been storing it under water.  Then someone told me not to do that or I would ruin it.  Then Norton said soak the 1000 but not the 8000... hard to do when they are back to back.  So now I am storing it dry, soaking for ten minutes before using tne 1000 side and just spritzing the 8000 with a spritzing pump bottle I got from a homeless guy with a grocery cart full of them.  Thanks for the input.

1. 
   roc | Oct 15, 2010 03:41am | #7

   If you flatten very often then you don't need nagura . . . sorta

   Hey do you know which way that guy went with the cart?  I need a new spritzer bottle.  No kidding.

   Obviously you don't need to clean the stone if you just flattened it.

   If you flatten after each blade sharpened excuse me while I take a break here to buy stock in Norton . . .

   and we're back.

   I clean the stone with the nagura after every blade.  Some times, if I am having trouble honing the filmiest wire edge off the edge, I will clean the stone more than once for that problem blade.  Is quick to do just takes a few seconds.  When the stone gets blackened it pretty much stops cutting. See photo "Clean Now ".

   The time to use the nagura is if you get too much black build up of metal in the pores of the stone.  If this happens (when this happens ) rinse the stone under running water to get all the metal out  that you can then wet the nagura and lightly rub the nagura over the whole stone, to keep  the stone as flat as possible, then take your fingers and rub around and around using the slurry from the nagura then rinse under running water again.  The nagura acts like an eraser to get the fine metal particals out of the pores of the stone.

   viola

   
2. 
   RalphBarker | Oct 15, 2010 09:42am | #8

   Upcoming movie?

   " . . . my 71 year old face, unlined by smoke or strong drink, reflected back at me with the purity of a Fios fiber optic TV and the innocence of a new born baby."

   Poetic. Sounds like the voice over for the trailer for an upcoming movie, "The Old Man and the Waterstone" - adapted from the novel by Ernest Swensonway. ;-)

1. 
   swenson | Oct 15, 2010 10:09am | #9

   Sometimes I wax poetic late at night. What kind of wax should I use?   Do you buff it out right away or do you let it harden for a while? Also I lie a lot. Like the part about not using strong drink. And the "unlined" part.  Did you see that Hemmingway sized fish in the waterstone pond of roc's? A little chlorine bleach would have stopped that if used early on.

1. 
   RalphBarker | Oct 15, 2010 11:00am | #10

   poetic wax

   I'd let it harden for a few minutes, and then use an electric buffer. That way, you end up with a "Flinch Polish".

   Yes, I noticed the "growth" in Roc's photo. Few things scarier than a shark-infested waterstone pond. I get growths in the final rinse tray for my film (water and wetting solution) if I leave it overnight. I've never saved it to see if it would evolve into something useful, though.

2. 
   swenson | Oct 17, 2010 01:19am | #11

   Rinse tray.

   I'm not sure what to put in my rinse tray since I am shooting digital but I'm gonna get a big jug of "Ones 'n' Zeros" final rinse and give it a try. I solved my original problem of the frosted mirror. Where I stand in front of my sharpening bench the lights above me back light my head. When looking at my face in the back of the chisel, when my head is back lit, the effect is to wipe out the reflection.  Taking a few steps back eliminates this effect. But starting this thread lead to some good tips from roc for which I thank him. You can sell off your Norton stock now, I'm not over-flattening any more.

3. 
   roc | Oct 17, 2010 01:30pm | #12

   Got grits ?

   I was wondering, since I read the other day that you use a combination 1000 8000, do you use a grit or two in-between those? Say 2000 and or 4000? If not you may be seeing light reflected back from the bottom of the scratches left by the 1000 that the 8000 cannot cut down to the bottom of. So with direct light from many angles you see many micro reflections but in indirect,shade light, you get the upper most metal's mirror and the bottom of the scratches are subdued. Dude. I hope that made sense. I just woke up and am typing this from bed on the iPad orange juice in hand . At this stage I can't tell. No coffee yet.

   PS: OK got coffee. Can not exactly say it is helping yet but there IS hope.

   >Taking a few steps back<

   That is mostly always good advice. Thanks for the reminder

1. 
   swenson | Oct 18, 2010 01:33am | #13

   light reflected back from the bottom of the scratches

   I think you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what is happening.  I do go from 1000 directly to 8000 and since I was reconditioning an old beat up chisel I was paying more attention to the flattening of the back than I do when I am sharpening plane irons because of the 8000 only being used on the secondary bevel and the small back bevel using the ruler trick the folks at LN seem so fond of.  Thanks for all the brain power on such a trivial matter.  Also thanks for setting me straight on the Nagura slurry.

1. 
   roc | Oct 18, 2010 02:18am | #14

   No, thank you

   I was having fun.  Sharpening is one of my favorite topics, not just with woodworking but tools in general.  Be vary careful now though.   If you were to keep going down this path and if you were to leak your fiendish experiments to the general public . . .

   well . . .

   you might start using "too many stones" then you would be labeled crazy or worse a heretic !  Then be cast out as I have been.  (Well in my case I can't blame them but any way . . .)

   It is true it is possible to get too involved with sharpening.  Then you just do woodworking to dull the tools so you can get back to your fiendish experiments at the stones.  Peering for long hours through various, and increasingly expensive, magnifying apparati at more and more miniscule sections of massively thick blades.  Looking for imperfections.  Soon finding imperfections that are not really there and obsessing over them to the exclusion of every thing and every one.  Family members trying to reconnect with you any way they can.  Trying to break through that awful iron like trance that grips you until . . .

   One day . . .

   while reading a post here on Knots, the sacred and holy mecca of all knowledge that is pure and good, a master plane maker, some one you know you can trust, says to you . . .

   "What are ya' nuts ?  Why are you using all them stones"

   Then . . 

   THEN . . .

   It becomes clear . . .

   you are using "Too many stones".

   Until then have fun and knock yourself out.

   :   )

    

   
1. 
   swenson | Oct 18, 2010 07:31am | #15

   "Too many stones"

   I may have started down this road. I was going to make light of your post by quoting Tony "You aint got no stones" Sopprano, or Adolf "I only got one stone" Hitler, but instead I decided to get serious.

   A few months ago I opted to scrap all my sharpening methods and go with just one, the waterstone system promoted by Lie Neilson, David Charlesworth and Deneb Puchalski. I had seen demonstrations by employees of LN at their factory and at a LN tool event. I had read about this same system in literature that came with a LN plane and with a waterstone bought from them. I had read Deneb's FWW article and seen him demonstrate it at another LN tool event and I had watched the Charlesworth DVD. I was going to become a "True Believer" because combining systems had left me confused and ready to let my tools get dull rather than struggle with sharpening. Then, after getting all the gear to do this right, I started to discover differences between LN, David and Deneb. I started making notes and keeping logs on each tool with primary and secondary angles and distances to the stop blocks on the reference board I made. I discovered irons that could not be held in their preferred honing guide, like the iron in the LN-#48. It's sides slope exactly the opposite from the notches in the chisel part of the guide, yet the blade is too narrow to fit in the plane iron part of the guide. But after making mistakes and solving problems I think I am now getting good and sharp irons and chisels and maintaining them will be a breeze.

   I have not traveled as far down the road as you have, but I can see how that can happen.

   Thanks again for the input.

1. 
   RalphBarker | Oct 18, 2010 10:21am | #16

   obsessions

   Conflicts arise. Just this morning, for example, I was thinking that I might take a couple of weeks off to clean my guns. Then, I thought of all those air molecules roaming around, dulling my chisels. So, I guess it's back to the water stones.

2. 
   swenson | Oct 21, 2010 01:34am | #19

   Conflicts indeed.

   I was going to clean my guns too and then thought about first going down to the shop and making a nice leather padded AR15 cleaning rack and got carried away.

   
3. 
   RalphBarker | Oct 19, 2010 10:31am | #17

   Nice job

   Living alone, I can get away with using the kitchen table.  ;-)

4. 
   roc | Oct 19, 2010 03:42pm | #18

   AR15 ? ?

   Ah.  Power tools.

   I thought of cleaning my guns when the money boys ruined the world with their Wall Street nonsense.  Good use for one of those.

   Oops now the FBI are going to start hanging around.  Again.  Shoot !

   I mean . . . no I didn't mean that like is sounded !  Heck.

   Just kidding.

5. 
   swenson | Oct 21, 2010 01:36am | #20

   Dear Mr. roc

   One of our agents, code named swenson, has been following you on the internet for quite some time now and I wonder if it would be possible for you to join us at our field office on October 23, 2010 at ten AM.  We are on the eighth floor, but then you know that, having visited us before in the matter of the waterstone attack threats on Federal agents . . . . . . . .

   We must again warn you not to wear any tinfoil on or about your head.