Prof,
Pshaw! Everyone knows that a person’s tools are a measure of their worth, character and intelligence – just as with cars and clothes.
However, as you are determined to be one of the hoi polloi I will introduce you to my friend who makes furniture with nobbut an axe. Or to my other friend who makes swills with nobbut an old knife. Then there is the chairmaker who uses an Anant spokeshave and scrapers made from dead saws.
Still, these people and their admittedly excellent products are a statistical fluke (or they are alchemists) and I will continue to buy Very Expensive Tools knowing full well that this will make me an excellent woodworker without me even having to try.
Cuh! What were you thinking when you posted? (Now, where’s that Knapp catalogue got to).
Lataxe, wiping snot furiously from his beak and apron-front.
PS Of course, you may just be one of them inverted snobs I have heard of. Do you do Yorkshire boasting?
Edited 1/29/2007 6:41 am ET by Lataxe
Replies
Prof,
I can see that you need an edjucashun concerning the boasting style of the Tyke (Yorkshireman).
<YB On>
Eeee! Whin Ah were but an apprentiss at owld Mucker's bottlewash an' stoolmekers yard, uz lads 'ad nowt but a big lump o' flint like themus wis uused by yon stone age chaps t' skin mamoths an' strangers wi'. But we med many a stool wi' thim flints; an' we carved t' seeats wi' fruit an' flowers, like, bitter than that Grindlin Gibbons bloke iver med. All dun wi' our flints, like. Nun o' thim fancy-dancy chisel things for uz - we were as 'ard as them flints we uused. An' we got three farthings a weeek.
Whin it kem time t' sharpen flints, like, we 'oned thim uup by stroppin' thim on our bare bums an' dowsin' thim int snow!
<YB Off>
You're not from Skipton, are you Prof?
Lataxe, a Geordie anthropologist
stop. you're kill'n me. But I always heard flints and bums don't mix, at least for us windy sorts.
Lataxe,
<<...like, bitter than that Grindlin Gibbons bloke iver med. ...>>
Yer speaks o' 'im likes 'e were sum kinda talent o' such....I've gots it on gud owthoratie that 'e was jus' th' contract'r man, like.....
;-)
Boy oh boy, do I wish that I could design and carve even 1/10th as well as he did......Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Dear Chap, that is one of the main reasons for me to visit Knots these days. Give me more.Philip Marcou
Sorry for deleting that... I was trying to edit the post to include a reasonable tool selection that would work but I somehow lost the post when I finished the edit...
Will try again a bit later...
I think I read somewhere that Duncan Phyfe's workshop was only a few hundred square feet... basically a two-car garage and he had a helper or two.
But did he have electricity?
For what it's worth--I don't have very many tools, relatively speaking, and most of them are inexpensive and otherwise hand-me-downs. That being said, I have burned through an inexpensive tablesaw and an inexpensive router. Both had to be replaced, and when they were replaced I bumped up a little in the price category. I'm glad I did. Sometimes, there are valid reasons to spend money on tools.
And for my budget, winning a $70 Stanley plane on eBay is as out of reach as a $700 Lie-Nielsen.
Duncan phyfe had two cars ?? ;-) Maybe a 2 landau carriage house ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
The equivalent of a two-car garage... like I said, a few hundred square feet.
Hi Riverprof ,
A while back there was a good sized thread that asked something like which 5 tools or which tools in general are the most important to have to be able to do woodwork . See if you can find the thread if you can .
Nowhere did I remember reading any implications close to what you are inferring . We all will make our own interpretations and have our own opinions on most any subjects , now you don't have a problem with that do you ?
I personally started on a shoe string and compared to the majority of professionals still operate with a minimum of luxuries .
The knowledge one has imo is much more important than the tools they own .I have said it many times that imo "great things do not have to come from great places ".
You could use a hammer or you could use a nail gun , or no fasteners at all while some posters may hold opinions close to the heart that they feel strongly about and for them may be truth , I have not seen any condemnation based solely on differing opinions have you ?
Having bigger and better tooling can be great but until one has the ability and knowledge to use the tools the brand and type will have little effect on the outcome . Tools don't make beautiful things , people do .
Exactly what are you referring to ?
dusty
I subscribe to your next to the last paragraph. A very good cabinet and furniture maker who is now deceased once told me that a "skilled woodworker" will make good pieces with the tools he possesses. And, that he will not go and buy a new tool every time he wishes to make something different or to do a different type operation.
A good friend of mine, who is the most skilled woodworker I know (and, I know a lot of them) has quite a lot of tools in his shop. Most are good quality, but far from the most expensive or the fanciest on the market.
Another friend has a very large shop, filled with the very best. He is also skilled, but actually turns out very little in the way of woodworking.
I, myself, am not highly skilled. And, I would be considered a "tool junkie" and can afford it. The shop is my place to go and enjoy. Sometimes, time in the shop serves as therapy. Other times, it's just pure pleasure.
It seems to me that most woodworkers have individual desires, goals and wants. Some find what they are looking for in woodworking. Some don't, so they spend a lot of their time on forums knocking someone else's skills, tools and dreams. I say "to each his own."
Billy B.
It has been my experience that one of the main advantages to having a lot of power tools is that you are able to make your mistakes much faster.
Hi hesshaus ,
Yes , agreed but often it takes less time to fix those mistakes with power tools as well .
" how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes "
regards dusty
I think you're right, FWW is the snobbiest mag and this is the snobbiest group of tool collectors on the web. It's always been that way and will continue to be for a while.
The real questions are- Do these people deserve to be snobby? Does the mag still earn it's reputation as flagship of the woodworking mags? (Which in turn leads to elitist attitudes by readers and forumees.)
And, most importantly, why are you here?
Lee
p.s For what it's worth, this forum is in a snobby phase, like most things it will pass.
"The real questions are- Do these people deserve to be snobby"Does anyone deserve to be a snob? No, IMO. Most people act that way to inflate their own self image. Authoratative is another thing. Someone who has gained a lot of knowledge and/or experience and is recognized for this may be able to get away with stating their accomplishments to someone who doesn't know about them but they way they come off makes a difference.People who go around telling people that they're "a bit of a xxxxx snob" annoy the he!! out of me.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Does anyone deserve to be a snob? No, IMO."What???? Not even me?Lee
Well, it depends on how it's done.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Alright, I give in. This thread has convinced me I must become a snob. What shoud I do first?
"This thread has convinced me I must become a snob. What shoud I do first?"I don't know, I think it has to do with what is said, how it's said and how it's interpreted.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"I don't know, I think it has to do with what is said, how it's said and how it's interpreted."
Sounds like I need to start out with a good vocabulary list for snob newbies. Can you suggest a few words or phrases I could start practicing?
You could refer to yourself in the 'Royal We' or be like an athlete who refers to himself in the third person. Oh, sorry, that wouldn't be snobby, it would be azz-like. I hate when people use the third person. You can also impart some disgust when you refer to THEM.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
keeping in the spirit of the "royal WE"
shouldn't that tag line read
"WE cut this piece four times and it's still too short"
don't be selfish highfigh---- SHARE the blame>
LOL, Stephen
highfigh would use the Royal We but he doesn't want to be pompous.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
" highfigh would use the Royal We but he doesn't want to be pompous"
LOL,
but you are on "knots" right now------it's expected that you be a LITTLE pompous--------just don't try to pull that !@#$ over on" breaktime" buddy, --- :>)
Best wishes all, Stephen
<<< Alright, I give in. This thread has convinced me I must become a snob. What shoud I do first?>>>Well, the easiest (and probably the cheapest) way to gain entry to that kingdom is to go out and buy any Festool product, especialy the CS. Then you can join up with the Festool cult, and have at all of the unwashed who have not yet seen the light. However, I think your best bet might be to fork out $6000 for one of those divine Holtey planes. Far as I know, nobody around here has one, which automatically puts you in an exclusive club, and you could wax poetic in all those hand tool threads about what a magnificent tool it is, how it elevated your work, etc. etc. BTW --- I loved your question.............. <G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
see, i didn't even know that festool was the ULTIMATE!guess i passed the snob test....phewwwwww.now about that block plane. lol
<<< see, i didn't even know that festool was the ULTIMATE!>>>I (i.e. me) didn't say it was, but we have seen people wander in here who believe it is, and they argue their case with all the passion you might see in a fundamentalist mullah beating the drum for jihad.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
i dare say that "fundamentalist mullahs beating the drum for jihad", probably don't have time for woodworking!tee hee
Maybe not, but I would say the level of passion displayed by the groups is roughly the same. <G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood. $6000!!! Man that is way out of my league. Of course I want to change my league to the Snobby League. Maybe I can take out a snobloan at my local bank.
"This thread has convinced me I must become a snob. What shoud I do first?"
The easiest way is to slavishly believe everything I say, for I am perfect in every way.
Now, let's get you started with planes. First of all what you need is an old tin can to make the blade. Not any old tin can will do. It must be a special tin can that holds Beluga caviar. Open the can with a solid silver hallmarked opener with the crest of Victoria and Albert on it. Pour the caviar down the waste disposal as this is not required.
Now run along sonny, and when you've finished following the instructions in the previous paragraph let me know and, if I deign to respond, I'll perhaps instruct you further. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
You hit that one square on........The ultimate snob: one who tosses out the caviar so the can can be put to something useful.As one of the hoi polloi, I am impressed that one of our group here even knows about caviar, and how it is best dispensed with.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I like caviar and anchovies, they are light, come in small tins, survive in a pack, and taste just the same on ration pack biscuits as they do on lightly toasted bread.
Completely fit for purpose.
Richard,
Not being a snob, I prefer tinned cheese. It's already sharp! Ha,
Ray
OK. I'll get right on it.
Lee,
this question has nothing to do with this thread, but what the heck. I was thinking about you the other day. I want to try my hand at the type of low relief carving found on furniture. I looked at the set of 12-16 chisels and gouges that are recommended by a number of people. I looked at your "dirty dozen". I looked at the set recommended by Nora Hall, and by Chris Pye. Then I looked at a book that I have on low relief carving and half the gouges it recommended were of the "long bend" type. I know that there is no "one and only answer" on a set of gouges, even for a specific type of carving. I also know that after a few years of experience, I will be able to ask better questions. But for now, do you find that for low relief carving, that the long bend gouges are not as necessary as for deeper relief or carving in the round? From my experience, which is not immense, I can see that the long bend lets you do concave stuff better. Obviously it is best to have lots of gouges. But as I expand my old set of 12 Two Cherries, and try to learn low relief carving of the Chippendale variety, for example, should I stick to the straight gouges, or the long bends, or some of each.Sorry for the naive question. I would asked it in a more inteligent way, if I had more knowledge and experience. I can fully understand that I may have asked a question that is only answered by the statement: "You have seen my dirty dozen. What else can I say?"Thanks for even considering giving me the benefit of your experience.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Buy straight tools first. Straight tools can be used with a mallet, bents suffer. The only time you need a bent is for clearance and in relief work there are very few instances where clearance is an issue. I list a long bent in my Dirty Dozen because a person needs to experience the difference in the feel. So, even though those tools like bents, backbents, fishtails and such are really sexy the real workhorses are the straight tools.Lee
I should just add that most ornaments can be carved witn a vast number of different tools. I have just under a hundred tools and I could easily find fifty combinations of three tools in that mess to carve a given ormamnent. My point is that I'm right, Nora's right, Calvo's right, the book's right, we are all right. Carving tools are very versatile when properly sharpened and I could carve anything on my website with only ten of the "Dirty Dozen" if I needed to. The other 90 or so in my drawer are simply to make life easier. Every carver would have different tools they reach for and one is not better than another if the results are good.Lee
Lee,
Thanks for your quick answer. I had the feeling that is what you were going to say for two reasons. One is your Dirty Dozen is mostly straight, and I have done a number of low relief and deeper relief carvings, and found that I could do most of the work with my straight gouges. I have "played" with my three "long bends" just to get a feel for them, and they work fine when I push them by hand. I always have more "plans" than time to accomplish them. I got into chip carving last year because I have always enjoyed the European folk arts such as folk painting, and this is sort of a "Folk carving" style. It certainly doesn't involve the skills needed for the work that you do. But I found that the modern approach to chip carving is to limit yourself to the use of two knives, and to the use of Bass-wood, This is very limiting! I really want to know how the Germans did the chip carving on the beams on houses and churches, and how the work was done on heavy furniture of maple and oak. So I found two older books in English on it, and found that they used less limiting styles, and used a wider variety of tools. Then I bought "Das Kerbeschnitzen" which is in German. I last studied German in 1962, so it is difficult, but I have translated the first 50 of the 150 pages, and find that it is very enlightening. By the way, your response to me is really in the context of this thread, in that it shows how "skills and tools" are intertwined -- with a good set of skills, lots of different tools can be used to accomplish the same thing. Thank you very much,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If they feel they "need" buy it because they consider themselves serious ... ipso facto, it is necessary if you are serious. I mean they wouldn' thave spent the money otherwise. Their purchasing act shows them to be serious after all.
Also, if they aren't able to make vintage or other less expensive alternatives perform, it must be because dark arts are required.
More seriously, while strains of this do exist here on Knots and are indeed tiresome, they are more the exception than the rule. Indeed, most fellows here are quite pragmatic and those with experience know that it's the woodworker and not the tools that make fine pieces. Not that there's anything objectionable about working with fine tools, of course. Quite the contrary.
C'mon
Every knows that he who dies with the most tools wins.
Bill
To paraphrase Jack Benny, after all it has taken me to accumulate these tools, if I can't take them with me, I aint going.
I'm blessed with a wife who says, "It takes good tools to do good work!" (She's also more than happy to take a trip with me to our local Woodcraft store to peruse the tools available--in fact, the account is in her name!) Whether or not that's true, in the most absolute sense, it does seem to be more fun to use better tools--and the more I use 'em, the better I can develop my skills. All the while, recognizing that it's skill that builds beautiful furniture, not just tools.
On the other hand, I spend time at both the Knots and Breaktime forums--at Breaktime a poster complained when he didn't get an immediate and serious reply to his question, but rather the thread took a turn toward the humorous and ridiculous. In response someone suggested he post the question at Knots; "They take themselves more seriously over there." So with all the great information available here, I hope we don't forget how to just have fun.
Bob
I don't know about you but the only real justifications for me to buy a tool are A) if I can't do what I need without it and I'll use it in the future, B) I need it to do this job and can sell it after but not lose my butt in the process and C) I'll use it occasionally but it's a smokin' deal.
If someone can use what they have with good results, I say, "Let's make it hap'n, Cap'n!".
I saw a guy fly fishing at the river close to my house and he had everything he needed except a clue. There was an Asian guy who walked right up to the falls and would cast right into the foam at the bottom. Looked weird but he was hauling them in like crazy.
I've said it before and I don't think this will be the last time- having/using good technique matters a lot more than having the most expensive tools and not knowing what to do with them.
Riverprof,
You must have some friends in the Psych Dept. Ask them about the term "Egocentrism". It refers to the widely held belief that if you think in a certain way, then everyone should think that way."
I believe that is the trap you have fallen into. You believe that skills are more important than tools. That is something which I also feel to be true. You said that the focus one often sees in Knots on expensive tools is "silly and snotty". That is the very definition of egocentrism.
One could read you message and find that your position is "silly and snotty". One could accuse you of "reverse snobbery". I have seen this happen on Knots as well. Indeed, it has happened to me, and on the same topic.
You and I seem to have a number of things in common. One is the belief in skills over tools. Another is that when we first got into Knots, both of us started threads and got into lots of discussions about things like this, which are not about woodworking techniques, but about woodworking philosophy. Since philosophy is your field, and since I had a minor it in, I guess that is reasonable. But I quickly tired of many of the responses which I didn't find to be reasonable. Then I remembered an old mantra: "Never ague with a fool, bystanders can't tell which is which."
So I stopped initiating threads about such issues. I still respond to specific people with specific answers, but I choose which people I discuss these things with. If someone comes back with a answer I don't believe to be useful, such as calling me a "reverse snob", I just don't answer it.
You are a philosopher, and to survive in that field, you must be a pretty incisive thinker. So let me propose something for you to think about. Human behavior is often easy to predict (not always). But if you ask the Pope which is the right religion, he'll probably say "Catholic". If you wear spandex in a Biker Bar, you will probably get the .... beat out of you. The point here is that the response can often be predicted from a knowledge of the audience.
So how would you characterize the Knots denizens, given their propensity toward discussing fine and expensive tools? I can't be sure, but I tend to believe that the typical Knots denizen is on the older rather than the younger side, on the richer rather than on the poorer side, ..... Probably the typical (if there is such a thing) Knots denizen is in a position to enjoy the finer things of life. They have paid their dues, and are ready to reward themselves. That explains to me the focus on fine tools more than on skills.
Also, the name of the sponsor is "FINE WOODWORKING", and that in itself draws a group of folks who really focus on going the extra yard in achieving great results. Obviously this is a group who would tend toward the finer tools. I think if you go to other woodworking sites, you will find less conversation about planes that cost $2000 to $8000 apiece.
Given that description of the Knots denizens, one can expect what one gets in Knots. One can also expect that to propose things opposite to the focus on "fine tools" will often lead to negative results here. It would be like asking the Pope to reconsider his religion.
BOTTOM LINE: I started off being in love with Knots. After a while, I began to feel some of the things you described. Then I fell back in love with Knots "as it is". I treat it differently now. There are many SUPERB woodworkers on Knots who have wonderful attitudes. After a while, I began to see who they are. After a short time, you will be able to characterize many of the Knots denizens. Then you can address you questions to those who you feel most qualified to provide responses. It is fine if others also provide answers.
Knots has changed me quite a bit. Initially I came at things a bit like you. But I have moved, slowly over time, to being able to see differences in tools that I previously could not. I am moving more to the use of hand tools. Just as I enjoy making and seeing and using fine furniture, I realize that I enjoy using fine tools also. Maybe I am becoming a "snob", though I doubt it. I still will not buy a tool until I believe that I understand what I am buying and why I am not buying an alternative. It is VERY true that using a nice Lie Nielsen plane feels a lot better than using a nice old Stanley.
So my response to you, which is overly long, but then again, you asked a complex question, is:
1- understand your audience and you will be more able to predict and understand their behavior.
2- if you say something that the audience does not believe in, you can understand why their response comes back negatively.
3- rather than complain about how Knots is, it is better to understand what it has to offer. What Knots has to offer is immense, and not offered elsewhere.
4- as a philosopher, you have read much "stuff", and you have learned to discriminate between looser and tighter thinking. Both types exist here on Knots as well as in Phil. It is better just to focus on the tighter thinking, and ignore the looser thinking.
If you ever want to focus on any particular skills, there is a lot you can do. For example, instead of starting a more philosophical thread such as this one is, start one on dovetailing, M&T, veneering, inlay work, creating curved furniture, etc etc etc. There have been many such threads on every skill you can imagine in Knots. There will be more, especially if you start some. If you want to focus on skills, read the posts of folks like: Derek Cohen, joinerswork, Philip, Rob Millard, Sgian Dubh, etc etc etc. The list of such people is impressive, in my humble opinion.
I hope you come to an understanding which leaves you at peace with Knots. You seem troubled with it now. I don't believe you will change it. It may change you, or you may decide to leave. I hope you stay. This place is too good to miss. Happy woodworking!
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Cripes! An intellectual snob! The worst kind!Hah, hah, ha...,Lee
I got started in woodworking under the tutelege of my Greatgrandfather who was a cabinetmaker for 60 odd years and never owned a power tool and did'nt even have electricity in his shop. What I learned from him was that knowledge and skills are key. In the hands of a fine craftsman, better tools MAY enable him to produce better work but, until the craftsman acquires the requisite skills, a better (more expensive) tool does not translate into better work.
Dick
Here, here here, now!
What kind of anti-capitalistic drival is this that you're spewin'?!
Next thing you know you'll be sayin' that just because these's nothing wrong with my $1500 slider table saw that that's no reason why I shouldn't go out and buy that $1700 Saw Stop table saw.
How the heck am I suppose to be expected to build better stuff than you when my tools are obviously inferior to yours?
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
I believe you can split woodworkers in to two categories, those that agree with me and those that are wrong. (I have an egocentric gene somewhere in me, I have to fight it all the time)
But seriously, I do believe there are two groups of woodworkers; those who require a chisel for dovetails and those who are happy with a jig. I think most of the outspoken posters in this forum fall into the chisel group. If you like the jig group, hang out in Breaktime more often. I am definitely in the jig group.
I think the chisel group is a unique group with very high standards and the ability to back them up. I know from experience that I don't have the hand control to do dovetails by hand. I've been trying for too long with very little improvement. I believe I've hit the wall of diminishing returns and I'm no longer going to try. So I am very happy with the jig to make my dovetails. "Fine woodworking" requires a dovetail when making a drawer, for example, but it doesn't require it be done by hand.
My specialty is design, engineering and customer service. I come to Knots for help in finishing, joinery and wood selection. There's a lot of good advice here. For everything else, I go to Breaktime.
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
RP,
Thanks for your response. I am very happy that you took my message in the spirit in which I meant it.
To me Knots is, far and away, the best bargain in the world in learning fine woodworking. What happened today is another example of that. Lee Grindinger answered my response to you, and I responded to him with a question that has been on my mind for that past month. His answer was quick and insightful, (and from one of the great carvers of our time).
His answer is an interesting twist to the "Tools vs. Skills" issue that you brought up. His answer to me was that with the right skills, one can accomplish what I want to do with a wide variety of tools. He did recommend one type of gouge over another, but there was no talk of "brands". This type of feedback is, IMHO, the zenith of Knots. He not only gave me a answer based on massive experience but also provided an analysis as to why. So just like in the "Nature vs. Nurture" debate, we see that "Tools vs. Skills" is too much of an oversimplication. The answer is that, in the language of statistical analysis, there is a significant interaction between the two independent variables. (which in English means, both skills and tool quality have a lot to do with good woodworking output).
Thank you again. I look forward to more exchanges with you.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Prof,
You reply to ajoe's cynical snipe that:
"I think what you said has the ring of truth". Would that be The Ring of THE Truth, then? Or just a chime with your own jaundiced views?
As you are a Prof, allow me to give you a lecture as this is a mode you may recognise:
You are not the centre of the universe, even the small, virtual universe that is Knots.
Being an authority to your students within your expert domain does not automatically make you an authority elsewhere on other topics, although I know this misapprehension is a hard one for teachers to avoid, as they are so used to pronouncing their pearls without the swine 'gainsaying them.
It is possible to behave in modes other than the fashion in which you conduct yourself without being a snob or any other unpleasant kind of character. The definition of "snot" is not "upstarts who don't think like Riverprof on all subjects he deems important".
And finally, if you want to be controverial, interesting and of some use within Knots then "Must try harder" seems the best comment to write at the bottom of this particular essay.
So, cut along Riverprof minor; and let's be having some improvement in the quality of your next offering or there will be a B- for you!
Headmaster Lataxe
Edited 1/29/2007 1:17 pm ET by Lataxe
Hmmm..., Headmaster???Sheesh!!!!! I need a better school!!!
** Notice: slight thread highjack **
Hey Lee:
Any news or threats of an upcoming gathering in your neck o' the woods, oh, say, resembling Montanafest II?!
Jeff
Montanafest? Jeff, Ruthie and I have decided it's time for an adventure so we've listed the house here in Montana and plan on moving to the Caribbean country of Dominica (pronounced Domin eeka). Dominica, not to be confused with the Dominican Republic, is a small island between Martinique and Guadaloupe in the Lesser Antilles. Furniture making for me will be on hiatus until we get a house and a few guest cottages built. Perhaps then we will host a DominicaFest! Somehow I suspect attracting a bunch of woodworkers to the tropical rain forest in the Caribbean for a three day festival won't be hard.Lee
Well, Livingston will never be the same. That's too bad you're leaving. Good luck with the move.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff,Lee
Lee, don't you know there's no snow where you're heading? Only year-round summertime weather, better than here in FL.
I'm envious. Keep us informed, if it's as good as I think it is, you might need me to help you get everything settled. And that may take a long while.
Yeah, I've lived in the frozen north all my life. We have decided a change in climate and culture would be most welcome.Getting away from these elitist MAWGs might be a good thing as well, Hah, hah, ha...,Lee
You will by now have realised that the site assumes all new posters are quite without focus, and so post random shots in the knowledge that any reading their missives will either not understand a word of it, or will simply take the opportunity of launching their own Titanic.
For my part I glean from these leavings and endevour to let lie those which have no value in my store of life's experience.
You'll find that enthusiasts often surround themselves with the trappings of expertise when no such expertise actually exists. I guess if you can afford it, it probably does not matter. A relative neophyte pianist could buy a Steinway and argue that 'I might as well have the best in case a lesser instrument could actually hold me back.' Of course, this is unlikely.
You hear this very same argument in woodworking until you see the kind of work produced by Asian woodworkers with crude tools or you study 18th century woodworking and gain an appreciation that exquisite works of decorative art were built with a tool kit that could be packed in one chest and carried out of the shop by its owner.
I think that if we are not at least occasionally intimidated by our tool kit then we are not being realists or we've gone down some road we perhaps shouldn't have. By intimidation I mean the notion of 'well, boy, I ought to be able to accomplish a lot more than I actually am with all these tools.' I think this kind of introspection keeps one honest in the sense that it keeps one working on skills and the particular project at hand and not the next tool purchase. Tool accumulation is an easy and enjoyable hobby to some. Woodworking is a rewarding but often frustrating hobby. It isn't for everybody. A lot of people are smitten with the implements of the craft, but not the craft itself I'm afraid.
Hold your horses there professor!
I am new to woodworking but it doesn't take long to see that it is a very complex hobby. There are just so many elements to understand and master, all of which require considerable skill and practice. I feel overwhelmed sometimes with the skills I need to acquire.
Modern technology makes woodworking accessible to someone like me; I cannot hope to master all of the requisite skills from initial design through to applying one of the many finishes available. For example, a well-made jointer and planner will allow someone, with only moderate skill, to get flat and square stock, the sine qua non of fine woodwork.
But, what if that jointer does not produce the flatness required? Not all of this modern technology necessarily works because someone is trying to make it affordable, and just possibly, skimps in a few places. Nothing is more frustrating than a purpose-built machine that doesn't perform as expected. So I believe the rule of thumb is that more expensive tools perform more accurately and with less hassle than their less expensive counterparts. You see this advice all the time, but it's just a guide and there are great deals to be had if you know enough. See Sarge's analysis of bandsaws; he knows how to buy a saw - I don't; so I have to take a short cut and overpay.
Again, I don't have time to master the handcut dovetail (I would like to but I cannot) so a jig will have to suffice; sure, it's not as aesthetically pleasing but only relatively few will notice.
I think you have it the wrong way round. I have expensive machinery because I'm not serious! I really want to build decent quality stuff without having to spend an inordinate amount of time acquiring the necessary, and serious, skills of woodworking. My power equipment is a testament to my lack of skill. On the other hand, it is a practical and relaxing pastime that results in useful "stuff".
I enjoyed your contribution to the "Luke" thread - don't read too much into the tool discussions. This forum is a wonderful resource for newbies and the experienced alike. Don't be so prickly!
Cordially,
Hastings
And is a guy with a $2000 saw any worse or better then the guy with a $6000 hand plane?
Doug Meyer
Hastings,
I see you are from Alabama. That is a long way from Virginia. But if you ever get up to the DC area, let me know. I'll bet that at the end of a single afternoon, you'll be cutting great dovetails with an inexpensive saw, and having fun at it. It ain't hard. If there is a woodworking club in Mobile, I am sure you can find a dozen folks easily who'll show you how to do it.Too much has been written to make it sound hard. Get the videotape by Frank Klaus and you'll see how easy it is.Have fun. Believe in yourself. You can learn and do anything in woodwork.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:Thank you for the encouragement; it's easy to get intimidated by it all. If I'm in your neck of the woods, I would love to accept your kind offer.Hastings
Rp,
Wow. That was the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. Thank you very much. I am glad to have been able to help.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Prof:
"The issue I'm trying to deal with here is the idea that someone with limited means should stretch to buy the best. Or that someone with very limited means should find something else to do with his or her time. I think that attitude is snotty."
And bad manners to boot!
It's just that I'm not sure that it is happening in Knots to the extent that you imply (or at least, I do not get that sense). I am amazed at the care and detail that people put into their responses to questions. Sometimes questioners get chided for not being specific, or the style was not quite up to snuff, but I haven't really noticed the sort of snobbery you describe.
In a public forum of this type, one has to be careful not to diminish anyone solely because they may not share the same level of economic wherewithal, or education or writing skills etc, etc. To do so shows very poor form indeed.
Hastings
Rp,
Don't let yourself get bent out of shape on account of a few folks who are afraid not to buy the very most expensive tool out there. That fear probably comes from a little bit of insecurity about their own skill or knowledge which we all lack to some extent. We all probably have some bit of insecurity, too. Currently there is also a large population of wealthy yuppies who just have to get rid of lots of money that has accumulated in their bank accounts. That must be a most happy state, but I wouldn't know. The tools they buy probably work better than mine. If they enjoy gloating a bit, that is fine with me. Gloating may feel good. Again, I wouldn't know. The vast majority of us posters don't fall into either category. We obtain the tools that we need to do our projects and using them is the fun we have. Several previous posters made good points on this subject also.
Cadiddlehopper
I'm not sure what you're actually hoping to find in Knots, but as for myself, I find a wealth of info for my chosen field, coupled with a vast array of entertainment. Where else can you find such a mixture of people of differing careers, from the comfort of your own home? Sort of like going back forty years to the old drugstore, or the hardware store, or the corner barber shop. Just high-tech now.
When put in perspective, I enjoy it.
Ok, I may have stretched it a tad. Or two.
Sir, I think you protesteth too much...said tongue in cheek, of course.
I think there are several issues involved with your perception. Not all the blame is to be placed on "these" people who suggest a LN plane or another widget you deem as overpriced for the purpose.
Fault lies with the posters often times. If people would say up front what their expected budget is, it would go a long way towards mitigating the issue you perceive.
Often one of the first posters will ask concerning budget. And just as often the OP doesn't respond until several messages later as the opinions pile on. And still the OP may not give a budget.
Too, many OPs will simply state right up front they want "the best" widget. When even moderately priced widgets from Company A for X price are suggested, the OP sometimes comes back with "That's too expensive." I wish all posters looking for a tool would give an indication of budget.
Aside from that, the issue of tool cost and recommendation sometimes polarizes respondents into two main groups--those who say buy the best you can to those who take pride from carving ball and claw feet with a chisel from the five and dime. Both ends of that spectrum can have sincere people and those with a false humility.
But it is just that diversity I come to the forums for. Hopefully we each can have a voice in such threads that at the end of the day we can both believe was sound, even if different.
Take care, Mike
Ah, no worries RP.
I do like the forums, perhaps even more when there is honest disagreement. It is one of the best ways I learn.
Most times I refrain from even reading "What should I buy" threads if there are more than a couple responses.
Take care, Mike
I read through this thread, and I was about to write a very mild rebuke of your comments.
Then I went back and read the thread you cited (about block planes).
Then I thought about the many years I have been participating at Knots, and the peculiar culture I see here.
So now I'm here to say I agree with your point of view -- although the word I would have chosen is "snobbish" instead of "snotty".
I saw the same thing you did in that block plane thread; the OP was clearly looking for a serviceable, cheap plane -- and for his trouble in asking the question, he was bombarded with exhortations to buy a LN. I'm not bothered when someone makes a case for a favored tool, but the flavor of that thread, I thought, was basically to say you will make a mistake in buying a block plane for less money.
And that's rubbish............
But the attitude is an outgrowth of the culture evident at Knots, and to a lesser extent in other wwing forums.
That is, each of us goes through a decision making process about which machines/tools to bring to our shop -- reviews, demonstrations, forums, recommendations of wwing friends, etc.
At the end of that process, we buy xyz TS, for instance. Then, when someone comes to Knots and asks what TS to buy, many of these people argue with great passion that the only TS worth spit is the xyz model.
I've actually seen posts where the person would beat everyone about the head that the machine he bought was unquestionably the best, but he was not bothered at all by this and this and this problem.
The best I can come up with to explain this behavior is that these folks flog their machine of choice in order to get other people to buy it, as a way of validating their own buying decision.
Maybe you, or Mel, or someone else can clue me in on what other deep seated psychological things are going on within this phenomena.
Overall, I would say Knots represents a rich mix of people -- ranging from the newbies to those with astonishing skills. And it is a great place to gather feedback for your tool acquisitions -- but you do have to set up a filter for those few who insist on being overbearing.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Riverprof wrote:
"So let me be very specific. Let's say that someone posts this question: "I'm sort of new at woodworking and I need a plane for miscellaneous work -- softening hard edges, etc. What should I get?""
I guess we should have suggested that he use his teeth and fingernails to scratch at the edges of the board?
Seriously, there are a lot of presumptions flying around about people who recommend Lie-Nielsen: snobby, more interested in buying tools than woodworking, also similar to people who buy $5000 bikes and drive SUVs. The list goes on and on.
I feel like I need to say that this is really unfair, and it seems vindictive against those who disagree(d) with you. If you want to recommend frugality and fettling old tools, do so. But there is no reason to make sweeping generalizations about people who buy more expensive tools than you do. Everyone has their limits in money and time, and they can strike their own balance. If someone asks which plane to buy and gets a number of suggestions, they can weigh their decision based on whose situation seems closest to theirs.
As far as an assumption in the opening post of this thread, that Fine Woodworking magazine does not promote the kind of consumerism that you presume to interpret out of peoples' posts here --- I think that is going too far. Look at Chris Gochnour's (sorry, forgot the spelling of his name) articles over the last year. I don't recall a single recommendation other than buying new spokesshaves (relatively pricey ones), new shoulder planes, new scraper planes, etc. It's all very similar to the advice that is posted here in the "Hand Tools" section.
Also, in the Fine Woodworking book about "Using Hand Tools," there is an article about Lie-Nielsen and Bridge City Tools. The author recalls prejudging someone for saying "I'm going to use my Lie-Nielsen block plane here" rather than just "I'm going to use my block plane." So he ordered a LN block plane and a LN 62 low-angle jack. He reports astonishing differences in performance, enough to dispell any doubt that he had that these were just hyped. However, he does criticize Bridge City tools (can't remember specifics -- some measuring or marking accessories) as being too much to pay for performance that isn't so much better than the old standards.
I began woodworking feeling intimidated about sharpening and also about finding appropriate and useable old tools and feeling that LV and LN prices were way beyond what I'd ever pay. Reading some of the online forums convinced me that reasonable people felt that some of these tools were worth it. My first planes were a mix of old Stanleys from a retiring woodworker and a few new LN planes. A friend taught me to sharpen. Using the LNs as a standard and reading David Charlesworth on fettling, I got the Stanleys into good shape. I use ALL of the planes that I have -- including a most excellent old Record plough that has no equivalent in new planes -- and I enjoy every minute of it. I fettled a fleet of recent Stanleys in our school's workshop (all we can afford) and assisted the woodworking teacher in a lesson involving shooting boards and dovetailing. The kids in that class are still talking about how much they enjoyed that project, so I feel that we succeeded in sparking enthusiasm for joinery. If one of them asked me which plane to buy, I'd probably go through a number of options with them and explain the pros and cons. I'd also offer to help build a wooden plane. But I can back up this kind of advice in person; on-line I don't feel comfortable sending someone off to a flea market when I really don't know what they will find.
Another thing. Last summer a friend visited who knew me from woodworking forums online. He is a full-time woodworker who works 100% with non-power tools, and has done so for about 30 years. We spent two afternoons together and he gave me some very useful pointers. He told me what I was doing right and where I needed more work, as well. He also told me about several other forum regulars who are really doing what they talk about on these forums, and also about meeting some others who really do mostly collect planes and rarely use them. He said that I'd be surprised if I knew how few people were doing what I was doing. I felt a little surprised become woodworking forums like this have given me the impression that there are a LOT of people doing what I do.
What they have in common is that for the most part they like to talk about tools. What I notice in the workshops of the (professional) woodworkers I admire is that they have a mixture of old and new tools. Look at Garrett Hack -- he writes that one of his all-time favorite planes is his bronze LN block plane. He also has Stanley Bedrocks. Look at Garrett Hack's books, and the amount of "tool talk" there. I think anyone would be sorely mistaken if they believed that this gentleman does not work wood just because he likes to write about tools and seems to especially admire Lie-Nielsen.
If you are really irked by the tool-consumer-choice threads then I recommend to stay away from them. If you like technique threads (I do) then start some. I for one could use some tips on sawing tenons more accurately and correcting (and preventing) some of the mistakes that commonly occur.
-Andy
Riverprof wrote:
"I have no intention of arguing with you about any of this a second time. You can take my comments about $5000 bicycles out of context if you wish, but beyond posting this acknowledgment, I do not intend to take the bait."
It's ironic that you would say this, isn't it, considering that this entire thread was a means for you to continue spouting your prejudgments from the previous thread? You brought up the previous thread before I even joined in here. It is I who took the bait! And that, I suppose, that it what your taunting was intended to accomplish. Note that "taunting" is against the new forum rules.
-Andy
Edited 1/29/2007 8:20 pm ET by VTAndy
Who cares what tools you have. Are you happy with your pieces? Making anything out of raw wood doesn't have anything to do with how you made the piece you wanted.
I take "hand me down" tools and restore them to what I want them to do. You wanna see some cast outs that others have relegated to the junkyard! Rusted old tools that nobody wants. Send 'em to me and I'll gladly make them work for me. They all have a sole!
I'm on a low budget and looking forward to retirement in a couple of years. To make stuff out of wood that people will buy, furnish our home with pieces that we want, and supplement my Social Security.
I have a GREAT WIFE who likes my work! That's what matters most to me. I happen to like Queene Anne furniture, she doesn't to some extent. So, I design a piece with Queene Anne elements and end up with a hybrid. We both like it and we're happy with that. WIN, WIN, WIN! That's what matters most to me.
I get to indulge in my fantasies about what tools I need/want, and we both get the furniture we want. BLISS?
You're going to get many different opinions in Knots because there are many different disciplines in here. People who woodwork for a living, the weekend hobbyist, those who strive to reproduce period furniture, on ad infinitum (spell?).
Hell, I have a problem with people calling their shops Workshops, every shop can be called a workshop, but I like to give my shop a proper name to me, so I call my shop my Woodshop. That's what I work on.
Talk about a persnickerty old fart! And, yes, I will make a period reproduction some day, maybe several, I hope!
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"I've been wanting something out of Knots that it isn't really set up to deliver."
Care to say what you're looking for, but can't find? Just curious since I don't remember seeing exactly what it is that you want.
<QUOTE>
"
Hi Dusty,
The thread was titled "which hand plane do I get" -- 33854.1.
I don't have a problem with other people's opinions, but I do have a problem when I'm the only person in a thread speaking out against the demand that only expensive tools will do the job."
</QUOTE>
I don't think you weren't the only person on the thread who demanded that the OP buy only expensive tools. As the first respondant, I suggested a block plane would likely be the most appropriate choice given the criteria mentioned. Subsequently, I mentioned that I "liked" my LV plane, but I was just offering an opinion. And quite a few posters suggest a comparable LN model in subsequent posts.
Nowhere in that thread did "I" say that only expensive tools would do the job, and I find your quote above somewhat condescending.
Thankfully the original poster in the thread took the opinions with a good sense of humour, but reading how that thread sunk into the muck, I could see how a new member might be turned off by the opinions of some members of the board, and I can understand how you might feel put off by some of the opinions of people on the board as well.
I joined and read this board, and occasionally post, because I respect other people's opinions and advice, some of which I take to heart and some of which I take with a grain of salt. If nothing else, it is entertaining reading.
Regards,
that was actually my post....
i appreciated all the info that everyone was able to provide, and i accept the responsibilty of choosing what is correct for me.i fear some are afraid that i will be somehow "tainted" or mislead by $......well that's kind of my call isn't it? opinions are great, even more so humour.more of this last would be nice!i'd like to learn, this is a long latent hobby i am now able to pick up again, and i agree that those with thinner skin would indeed be turned off by much of the replies to posts that fall under the headline "the evangelism of the wood" lolthank you for the sober comments!
34127.82 in reply to 34127.71
<Quote>
that was actually my post....
i appreciated all the info that everyone was able to provide, and i accept the responsibilty of choosing what is correct for me.thank you for the sober comments!</Quote>Your first comment hits the nail on the head for me. I take the advice given on the board in a similar vein. I'm glad you found my comments sober, I'm glad, as that's likely the only sober part of me :)Have fun and stay safe. I think I'll go make some sawdust now to cheer myself up.cbolton
have fun! just don't breath or eat it! (the sawdust)
River,
Sorry but that was not the thread I was referring to, it was more like which are the most important tools to get when starting out in wwing . Many suggestions were given and the thread went for quite a while .
Different ideas of what is mandatory and needed to do wood work were freely given . At no time do I recall snotty or snobby replies offered up .
Several of us have asked you point blank , give examples of what is so terribly wrong with any of us giving our opinions to those seeking advice . You said something to the effect that when you are the only one with a given opinion on a particular subject you have a problem with that. Well professor that translates to YOU being a minority in your opinion .
Sounds to many of us that you get offended when others don't agree with you .
A rather childish reaction don't you think ? If we all always agreed what a dull world and forum this would make , and how opportunities to learn could be missed .
Try and learn something new each day , if you feel you already know all that you need to know , that's swell save the web space for the rest of us that enjoy learning and sharing .
keep your dry side up
dusty , a passenger on the river of life
I think the prof understandably dislikes the whiff of money/consumerism that courses around the halls of Knots. And, I think you would probably agree that some folks walk the halls (threads) saying "I bought xyz, and so should you."See my comments a few posts back (63, I think).********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Riv,
Maybe you've never read any of my posts. I'm the guy who has an assembled set of bench (and carver's) chisels, as many makers as chisels nearly. I have home made planes, old wooden planes, and a few stanley/record/ millers falls planes. Of yeah, my brother gave me a lee valley shoulder plane for my last b'day.
I've never felt like a voice crying in the wilderness, though; maybe cause I just put my opinion out there, and go on, usually. (Except when it comes to biscuits, even then it's only cause Lat gets his knickers in such a bunch when I rattle his chain.) If others want to and have the wherewithal to go after the very finest, more power to 'em. I've generally gotten the best quality tools I could. That doesn't mean I've spent the most money I could, or that all of my tools are the same color paint or in pristine condition. Just the contrary, most of my hand tools were bought used or are antiques. I grew up on a farm, and my dad wasn't the most successful farmer in the county. But his philosophy was, "I can't afford to buy a cheap tool." You've heard the old adage, "Use it up; wear it out. Make it do, or do without."
Most of my stationary tools were bought new, in 1975, with money from a tax refund. I didn't want "the best", but I did want a shop equipped with power tools that would last. I've been self employed since 1976, and still use all those tools I bought way back when.
I hear your frustration with the seeming lack of interest in hand operations. But it seems to me that the hand tool advocates' posts wax and wane here on knots. And even among the "neanderthals", there are diverse opinions, from those (cro-magnons) who like to only use period- appropriate tools, to others ( Piltdowns, like me) who will use hand or power tools indiscriminately, whichever will do the job most efficiently.
And I'll add that, because you don't get the response you want, from a post, that doesn't mean that it wasn't seen, or appreciated. It just wasn't responded to.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
Why do you find it reasonable to continue to be so reasonable? In any case, this thread has been valuable to me, because I used it as an opportunity to ask Lee Grindinger a question, and got back a great response. Now I have a question for you. I figure that since this thread started by pushing skills over tools, I need to ask some people with skills about which tools to use (sweeps and sizes, NOT BRANDS)I fully understand that one can carve any figure with lots of different combinations of gouges, so I am not looking for "THE ANSWER", just a quick, off-the-cuff-of-the-brain type of response. If you are going to carve a nice shell on a piece of mahogany for a piece of furniture, what is the set of gouges that you would put on the bench? Please dont spend any time working on an answer. Whatever comes to your mind first is better info than I have right now. I have a set of 12 gouges that I bought from Two Cherries in 1968. I have used six of them a lot and the other six have not seen much use. Now it is time to expand my set of gouges. I know that asking a carver which gouges to buy is like asking a skier how boots should feel, but what the heck.Is there a good book that you would recommend which is like "My first golden book in Chippendale-type carving". By the way, you don't have to worry. Given that my current attempt to translate a book from German to English will take a couple of decades, there is not much chance of my becoming so skilled in carving that I will give you, Lee, Chris Pye and Nora Hall a run for your money, is kinda low. Attached is a photo of my best (IMHO) carving to date. If you do not recognize the shape, it was meant to be an eagle. This photo will give you an idea of my level of skill. Have fun.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
If you are carving intaglio (below the surface of the wood,), I'd start with a fairly deep sweep gouge, (I don't have much of a handle on sweep #'s) and with a mallet, hog off the bulk of the waste, to a depth nearly where you want to end up. Then refing the depression with a fairly broad, shallow sweep gouge, til I have a smooth enough surface to draw out the rays of the fan or shell. Outline them with a vee-chisel or parting tool, then shape up the convex rays with skew-point chisel and/or a fishtail very shallow sweep gouge. Use appropriate sweep and size gouges for concave rays. Sand as needed-all done!
Relief carved shells, cut-in (outline) with appropriate gouges and chisels, by chopping down and making angled cuts toward the shell, til desired relief is achieved. The background is then wasted away. Or, the shell is sawn out and glued to a scrap board with paper in between shell and board, to be popped off after carving, and applied to the apron, etc. Modeling is done with either shallow gouges used "upside down" or flat chisels whichever seems easier. Then rays are laid out, delineated with vee-chisel as needed, and shaped up with either skew, fishtail, or gouges as described above. Pay attention to grain direction. I find the skew and fishtail can be angled to make shearing cuts against the grain, sort of like tacking against the wind, in difficult to carve areas. Other times, in carving concave rays, using a smaller gouge and working alternate sides of the ray, blending into the bottom of the depression is the way to go.
Hope this helps,
Ray
Ray,
I read and understood (in an intellectual manner). I will see if my hands can appropriately interpret the messages from my brain.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
All,
FWW had a very short but interesting article about 8 years ago(way in the back hidden from the advertisers). It was about an American woodworker who visited an Indonesian shop. He was amazed by the excellent quality of the work- almost all of which was done with mostly junk hand tools. The chisels were home made from scrap metal. The planes were old (ancient) beaters- they improvised something (I forget what in particular) from old bicycle spokes and broken hacksaw blades.
Most of us can afford better. That is great. Alot of us are hobbyist who enjoy really good tools. Some of us buy the best of the best and do good work with them. Some of us enjoy the challenge/ put up with the necessity of using less than perfect tools to do similarly good work. Some are professionals and need the best to be profitable.When I was in highschool I drove a decrepit 1968 Buick Lesabre with rust, faded paint, torn seats, three snow tires and a tomato paste can holding together (intermittently) the exhaust system. Now I drive a shiny red Solara with leather seats. Both get me from point A to B.
So everyone does the best with what they have. There is no shame at all in that. Many probably do better work with inferior stuff. So although it is fun to debate LN vs pre WWII Stanley, there is no reason for acrimony or hurt feelings. It just isn't that important.
Frank
Disclaimer: I am saving up for a LN #4. Most of my tools are sharp and work , but are old beaters.
Edited 2/3/2007 8:18 am ET by Biscardi
Frank,I think it was wise, when you wrote: "So everyone does the best with what they have. There is no shame at all in that. Many probably do better work with inferior stuff. So although it is fun to debate LN vs pre WWII Stanley, there is no reason for acrimony or hurt feelings. It just isn't that important."There are all kinds of people doing this, on both sides of the divide you mentioned. No reason to draw other conclusions about the people who use different tools -- especially when some of us use a bit of each -- some antiques, some new stuff. In some cases, the old Stanleys can actually be more expensive, or close to, their new counterparts. Despite differences, most of us agree that to use a tool that works properly is a pleasurable experience.
-Andy
Cool
Are you a VPI fan?
Re: "Are you a VPI fan?"??? I'm assuming you mean "Virginia Polytechnical Institute." I guess VT refers to VPI if you are south of the Mason/Dixon? Up where I am, for most folks here it refers to the great state of Vermont!
-Andy
nope!, i (the block plane op) was simply lamenting my inability to kick my "tool habit". it is indeed a hobby i enjoy.
again,...sorry about bringing the wife into it. i gave her a hug and a smooch.
friends?
that's ok.....
do me a favor, if you see "merlvern" in a post, know that there's probably a large portion of "silly" to leaven the voracious wish to learn.
"Cbolton,
You need to work on your reading skills. You completely misunderstand my position in the block plane thread. I don't care; I'm just stating this for the record."
THAT remark is condescending. I don't think I misunderstood your position at all. I think you were saying that a lesser cost plane that a person spent the time fiddling and fettling would work just as well as an expensive block plane and that the experience gained by such a process is a valuable exercise.
Please clarify if that wasn't your intention. I'm curious to know exactly what I misunderstood and you didn't offer any insight into how my reading skills need work.
cbolton
Rp wrote:
"Maybe he was just kidding, and maybe he wasn't. But who (except for cranky old riverprofs) wants to admit publicly that they can't afford expensive tools?"
Lots of people do, on this and other forums. It's interesting that both you and nikkiwood read into that other thread that the guy wanted a _cheap_ plane. He actually never said that!
My suggestion to the guy was to consider a LN block plane from Fine Tool Journal, which sells them at a discount for $75. No one is encouraging a beginner to buy a Holthey! And the suggestion came from personal experience, which is the best thing this forum offers.
I'm not sure whether your suggestion to buy the inexpensive block plane at Garrett Wade comes from your own experience of that plane, but here is a review of that plane by a reviewer whom I respect and trust:
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5490
As far as the charge of "consumerism," I think it is a question of perspective. In my opinion, buying loads of cheap, semi-disposible products made by underpaid labor abroad is what consumerism is all about; it's a problem on many levels. Making a purchase from a small firm like Lie-Nielsen is a financial sacrifice (to me) but a choice that I feel is in accordance with my ethics. I recommend supporting this small company, and am not alone in my belief that the quality is worth it. Consumerist? Whenever someone starts a what should I buy thread, all the answers are consumerist to some extent except for the rare poster who offers to send a fettled old tool for free.
Yes, I do enjoy my time in a quiet, harmonized workspace, as you suggest you do as well. I believe that my work with wood, using handtools, as going against the grain of popular culture. This isn't the main reason I do it, though. I enjoy the processes and the results. I've also enjoyed the personal connections with some individuals. I'm working on building small button accordions, about which I don't post here because I suspect it is of little interest to Knots readers. I love the variety of perspectives here, I just don't appreciate the blanket characterizations that are made sometimes. My wish is that there could be disagreement without psychologism -- such as suggestions that people just make recommendations to make themselves feel better about what they bought, etc. I think that a lot of people (including me) recommend what they do because they are happy with their own experience --- I give them that benefit of the doubt, as one accepts that a community includes a multitude of perspectives.
-Andy
Edited 1/30/2007 9:28 am ET by VTAndy
"I don't think you weren't the only person on the thread who demanded that the OP buy only expensive tools"
I apologise. I meant to say "I don't think you WERE the only person ..."
So it is my writing (damned over-zealous fingers) that needs work and not my reading skills perhaps? :)
It's pronounced "Tay" Frid.
Lee
In one of his books, and in person, he said it rhymes with "Hey, Kid!"
Without a doubt there are people that are just plain "tool freaks" - people who enjoy the tool rather than what the you with it. If you look at the post topics on any forum a majority of them have to do with the tool itself, and not with building anything with it. Since woodworking is largely a male pursuit and men are tool freaks, it's not surprising.
Egos involved? hehe...none bigger than the Graf Zeppelin I'd say. One of my favorite or unfavorite post topics is "Finally made the move to Festool..." which is announced like the ascension to a higher plane of existence, shedding of all human frailties, and acceptance in an exclusive club that accepts only the "finest" human beings.
A week after you'll see the same people posting about a how to make pine look like cherry because they sure as hell don't want to pay the exorbitant bf price of cherry.
Not to mention endless discussion with their fellow "exclusive club" mates about the tool itself, what accesories they have, and when the higher price model will hit the market, because they still suffer somewhat from "tool-envy."
Once in a very long while they'll post a pic of a birdhouse they just made.
I have read this thread from the beginning but I didn't think I was going to need to take the time to pick and choose your wants and needs out of several posts in order to get you to make a simple list, which is what I was asking for. You're right, it is an overlong thread and that's exactly why I didn't want to look in every post- I thought that if I asked nicely, you would respond in the same way but I was wrong- you didn't.
To get to the questions you listed:
According to the article in Home Furniture, Tage Frid's name rhymes with "hey kid". They did an article on him but I don't remember which issue. If you want, I'll look it up.
I don't have FWW 15 but if you or someone else can post some photos and a description of the kinds of cuts you want to make, it would be helpful. I have seen several treadle lathes but no bow saws. For continuous cutting, I would think that a flywheel is necessary to provide momentum, so a mechanism that may be connected to a large sharpening stone could pull double duty. If you want more info or design help on this, start a thread about it. I don't remember seeing one on 'Treadle powered bow saw'.
I haven't seen thread #33850 but I will look- is that the one Sphere worked on?. My brother has worked on some pipe organs and is into early music, so now that I know the thread #, I can refer it to him. Thanks for that.
If you don't notice posts about others wanting or enjoying quiet shops or asking and complaining about hearing protection methods, you haven't done more than look at the posts, either. Apparently you want others to extract the meaning of your posts by asking if anyone knows if Knots can give you what you want and calling it snotty but we have to spell it out for you. Personally, I would like to have a shop next to a stream or river so I could take advantage of the water and use it to power my machines. Solar heat and electricity, too. I would rather be able to hear less machine noise and more music or nature.
If you want advice about finishing, a lot of it is already in the finishing section. If someone wants to shout you down for posting about less expensive alternatives, tell them to pound sand and keep posting. You may not get a lot of responses other than those but remember- not everyone here posts, they just read, learn and appreciate. Any correct info that you or anyone else posts, is helpful. The ones who dump on you for it are just like barking dogs- annoying most of the time but can sometimes be a warning.
"i want to discover that there is someone else on the list who dreams of a very quiet shop, with tools that have been chosen for their ability to make little sound, or aesthetically pleasing sound"
With the number of people posting about non-powered hand tools, I'm surprised that you haven't picked up on the ones who are using their power tools less. Also, these tools aren't designed to make little or aesthetically pleasing sounds, they're made to work wood and selection for their sound doesn't give the best result. OTOH, a quiet whooshing sound is a lot nicer to listen to than loud grinding, whining, whistling saw blades.
"Third, I see very little interest here in the kinds of things that attract me to woodworking (and have done so for thirty years)."
I think that if you look around, there's more common ground than you think.
"I want to have discussions with people for whom woodworking runs counter to consumerism, not in parallel with it."
If you can't find this here, you haven't been looking. It's all over the hand tool threads but I agree that there are a lot of them that are about shiny, new tools. Why not start a group of threads about recycling tools and other useful items, based on their type, age or style? Consumerism sucks and others have said this repeatedly. You must not have seen those posts.
"the fact that you -- and plenty of others -- don't know what I want (at this point) is all the proof I need that I can't find it at Knots, because I've been very specific about it. To many people, it's as though I've been speaking an alien language."
Knots is here so people can exchange ideas and information, hopefully in a pleasant manner. If someone came here and this thread was the first one they read, I can imagine that they would probably want to leave. Repeating your wants so others will know isn't too much to ask- it's similar to someone arriving in the middle of a conversation and asking to be brought up to speed.
"Knots doesn't have to give me what I want. I just wanted to see if it could."
Starting a thread titled 'Too snotty for my taste' is a pretty odd way to find out.
Riverprof,
I have to say that I frequent a variety of woodworking forums, and this one has _less_ hand tool content than the others. Less about working with hand tools and also, fortunately, less gloating (even if it is often done in jest of other sites).
Again, I merely disagree with the advice you offered on the other thread, and that is fine; what I took offense to was the unfair characterization of LN customers/users.
-Andy
Clearly, you touched a nerve in bringing up this issue.
Let me rattle off a few random observations on your observations:
First, there are a few real pros around here who earn their living doing wwing. But for the most part, the audience is dominated by pretty well-heeled old guys who have the resources to indulge in tool buying at a fairly high level. Moreover, often times, these are folks who have mastered their profession in the outside world, and they are not accustomed to having their comments challenged.
Second, tool acquisition is a major preoccupation for nearly everyone. If this were a group of hunters, I imagine we would be equally obsessed with which gun to buy.
The old adage "buy the best tool you can afford" is absolutely true. However, it is also true that buying the best (and therefore, most expensive) tool in a given category will make your wwing life easier and less frustrating.
Third, I think one of the functions of Knots is to help people (through shared experiences) understand the costs and benefits of buying tools at a particular price level -- high, medium, low.
To use the block plane example, when Tom Lie-Nielsen first came out with his early line of planes, I thought there was something faintly obscene about the whole enterprise -- planes designed for people with more money than sense.
But user raves eventually wore me down, and I bought one. Right out of the box, it was about as perfect as a tool could be. So it brought a tiny bit of pleasure to my life, and it saved all that fiddling around to make my other block planes work right.
Fourth, I have one foot in cabinetmaking and the other in renovation, and I am constantly struck by the cultural differences between these two groups. The latter are constantly poking fun at one another, have a thick skin, and never take themselves too seriously. And personally, I think the former group is just the opposite (for the most part), probably because wwing is a solitary activity, and doesn't seem to lend itself to much humor.
Finally, I would like to say that Knots benefits enormously by having guys like you around here -- to prick our sometimes inflated egos, raise difficult questions, and then stay with the debate until it plays itself out.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Tage is pronounced like Tay and Frid does indeed rhyme with grid.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I don't know how long you have wanted the correct pronunciation of Tage Frid's name but you could have just googled it. I was typing my response and didn't notice that the others had posted the same thing.
That said, here's a link for ya- http://www.risd.edu/about_profiles.cfm?type=faculty&profile=faculty_profile_63.cfm
google is similar to Knots- the info it there, you just need to be specific when you look for it. I think that if you had worded post #1 the way you worded post #100, you would have had a much better result and people wouldn't have been told that they weren't paying attention to you or what you were looking for.
BTW- the pipe organ links are outstanding!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/30/2007 11:19 am by highfigh
Edited 1/30/2007 11:19 am by highfigh
Edited 1/30/2007 11:20 am by highfigh
Funny thing about words that are read and not heard- unless there's some indication of the tone, there's not always a way for the reader to know.
So, Onward and upward, eh?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/30/2007 11:26 am by highfigh
"I think that this should be a question, always a question, always worth arguing through one more time."
Again, I am all for a difference of opinion. What I don't like is the persistent use of sweeping generalizations and categories for one's opponents. Most of us are autodidacts and not in apprentice/master relationships, at least, not in the traditional sense.
As an aside: In my past life as a researcher, I did quite a bit of work on the historical reality of the guild system, and the changes, in the course of history, in the way this system was represented in literature. To summarize, as the guilds declined in influence (and were banned, in some places), the romantic attachment to them increased and readers seemed to want to hear about the beauty of the master/apprentice relationship rather than its brutal side. The right of passage when an apprenticeship is complete and the young man hits the road is an especially appealing one to modern readers.
"Apprenticeship" has lost its bite to such an extent that when I was a graduate student, a provost argued against unionizing teaching assistants by stating that they were apprentices, and that in an apprenticeship one expects lower pay and few benefits in exchange for learning. I guess that makes the adjuncts and junior faculty into "journeymen." The tenured faculty are members of a guild? And I guess they should all be lucky not to be serfs?
-Andy
Riv,
As I recall from the early days of FWW, its Tahk-yeh Freed. A buddy and I used to just say tikky frikky. Course we never met the man.
Ray
RP,
[BEGIN RANT]
Reading through this thread had provided me with a substantial amount of amusement and entertainment, what with some of the vitriol and blatant twisting of various posters' comments.....
Personally, given your comments in this and the rest of the threads in which you have "contributed," it's my opinion that you're the one with the snotty, condescending attitude, so it's ironically and entirely appropriate that you started a thread with the title "Too snotty for my taste"...... Perhaps us mere peasants are a just tad too middle-class pedestrian for your high-falootin' late-60s-trendy-Ivory-Tower-influenced proletarian tastes?
Given your head-game-playing answer to highfigh (amongst others) about just what it is you're supposedly seeking in Knots, I suspect that you're just another one of those attention-seeking individuals, such as the "fine gentleman" who so adamantly defends a certain brand of tailed apprentices manufactured in das Vaterland...... I must admit, however, that I am truly impressed with the number of people that you have managed to offend and alienate in the mere month that you have been posting on this forum....
I'd be one of "those people" that recommended a Lie-Nielsen block plane to the OP in the most recent "Which Hand Plane Should I Buy?" thread. I also recommended, as alternatives, buying a vintage Stanley, Millers Falls, etc., and fettling it. In other threads on the same subject, I've also recommended vintage wooden planes and new-manufactured wooden planes. What I emphatically have not recommended are new-manufactured Stanley and any of the hardware store planes; my reasons are in the relevant threads, so I won't repeat them here -- go back and read them if you're interested.
_____
You're aware of those Neanderthal-types that do woodworking totally with hand tools? That would describe me.
I like hand tool woodworking for a number of reasons: it's quiet; there's very little dust to get into/onto everything; one can hold a conversation without having to shout over noisy machinery; one can listen to a little Vivaldi or CPE Bach or Scarlatti or Praetorius.... while cutting dovetails on a nice piece of walnut; it's a little difficult to saw your finger(s) off with a dozuki; etc., etc., etc....
Furthermore, I really don't care how one does one's woodworking -- with hand tools only, with power tools only, or with a mixture of the two -- it's up to the individual woodworker to figure out which way works best for him/her. And I also don't really care whether you use a Holtey infill or an LN bronze #4½ or an 1878-vintage Stanley #4 (or an ROS or a piece of 220 grit sandpaper on a shop-made wooden block, for that matter...) to smooth your wood. If you're happy with the way the tool performs and the results you get, then that's all that really counts, huh? Really don't matter how ya got there, do it?
There's even a warped sense of humour lurking within this Neanderthalic hide: yes, I do encourage people to use hand tools to see what hand tools can do for their woodworking and woodworking skills, and yes, I've been known to humourously tug on a few people's chains about using tailed apprentices, but it's done all in fun. In reality, how you go about doing your woodworking is your affair.
Now...in my plane arsenal are <<gasp>> some Lie-Nielsen hand planes, some vintage Stanley hand planes, some vintage hand planes of other makes, a couple of ECEs, some Chinese-style wooden planes, and a couple of other misc planes, including a new-manufactured Stanley #6 and #9½ -- both of which are extremely poor-quality planes.
I've tuned a fair number of vintage planes; they work quite well, and I enjoy using them. But, when I have a problem piece of wood that one of my vintage planes won't handle, I turn to one of my LNs. Why? Quite simply because they work as designed -- as they should -- with no problems, right out of the box.
Sorry, prof, but there's zero snobbery and zero rampant consumerism involved in buying and using a quality tool -- such as, but not limited to, a Lie-Nielsen hand plane -- that works as it is supposed to work, rather than buying a cheap POS tool that requires the buyer/user to correct the manufacturer's (often deliberate) defects. There's zero snobbery and zero rampant consumerism in buying and using a quality tool that can be passed on to my grandchildren's grandchildren, rather than one that will end up in the landfill after a couple of months of frustrating non-use...
And, yeah, I like woodworking tools -- new tools, old tools, metal tools, wooden tools, shiny tools, tools with a nice patina, lots of different kinds of tools....but -- much as I like them -- woodworking tools are merely a means to an end: a way to create something from wood; and that's why I have them. BTW, even though I probably have more (and better quality) tools than you would approve of, I use all of them.
I find it endlessly amusing that some -- such as yourself -- will pillory those who recommend, buy, and use better (and often more expensive) tools than you give the appearance of being willing/able to afford. That attitude is nothing more than reverse snobbery -- a little politically-correct class warfare; you're doing little more than trying to elevate your cheapness to a "higher moral plane...."
So...how 'bout you do us all a favour: get off your high horse. If you want to buy cheap POS tools, it's your money and your decision, but don't knock those of us who recommend, can afford, and prefer to buy and use quality tools.....
[END RANT]
Oh, yeah, and have a nice day!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/30/2007 2:56 pm by pzgren
Edited 1/30/2007 4:14 pm by pzgren
James,
Hee hee hee! The Prof is the first denizen of Knots that I've seen get your goat - a wonderful rant. :-)
I confess that the prof has begun to grate on me too. He does have a bit of a superiority complex, one feels. Still, perhaps we should allow him his therapy here. One merely hopes that his negativity does not make us all depressed; nor encourage some of the other patients to howl and gibber overmuch.
Lataxe, a boastful, snotty snob, or so the label says that someone has stuck on me.
Lataxe,
<<Hee hee hee! The Prof is the first denizen of Knots that I've seen get your goat - a wonderful rant. :-)>>
Ich bedanke mich!!
At the very beginning of my excursions on Knots, there was one other who initially tweaked me the wrong way, but as you've pointed out, the Boss has a lot of wisdom lurking under his rather gruff exterior.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the reply..... ;-)Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James,
you mentioned the Boss.
When I first got on Knots, he was active. I haven't seen anything by him for a while. Is he ok?
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't know about you folks, but Riverprof has mysteriously disappeared, and deleted all his posts both in this thread and "Expensive tools" also started by him...................
It's sad, but this will be the first time since I started in Knots to depress my ignore button!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I've been away for the past week, essentially out of Internet contact. Returning 2 days ago and reading his posts and these 2 threads was, um, interesting.
We all have our demons, I suppose. But he certainly was one angry guy. Hope he doesn't take it out on his students!
It's been my experience when this kind of thing happens, the skulker usually pays close attention to the forum he's "departed" and later comes back under a different "identity."
I'm sure he's reading these messages.
Rich
Rich,
re: "I'm sure he's reading these messages."
So, still not a good time to recommend the Lie-Nielsen #8?
-Andy
Rich,
With that kind of ethic, I'm glad none of my children are/were students of his!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I was thinking the same thing ...Pompous, officious dinks sine qua non like him were the reason I bailed on the ivory-white towered academy with no regrets. Sad that those in power rely on such expert advice as RP's. His argument had some validity but his presentation blew donkeys.
cbolton,
not to ruffle anyones feathers--------and certainley no reflection on you,
but i actually enjoyed both threads.
to me----it sort of looks like the O.P. has had the last laugh.
He stated his case--for better or for worse----and then the frenzy of folks piling on---actually made his points for him even better than he made them himself---which was probably he-is intention all along.
but --wadda I know ? - i could easily be wrong, frequently am----and at any rate-- i don't have a dog in this fight---------------
Best wishes, Stephen
Well, I think you're right. There was an "agent provocateur" quality to his comments. He surely did light a fire around here.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think everyone here needs to get a hobby..........Oh wait! Nevermind........LOL
-Paul
I enjoyed both threads as well and found them immensely entertaining in the same way that one might enjoy Paris Hilton's latest bump. But all in all, who give's a rat's bottom if it isn't related to the real reason why we're all supposedly here, woodworking, and the betterment of...
Mel,
<<you mentioned the Boss. When I first got on Knots, he was active. I haven't seen anything by him for a while. Is he ok? >>
Dunno. Haven't seen a post from him in at least a couple of months; last one I remember was some time around Thanksgiving, I think.
How's the translation coming along?
And, how is your recovery progressing? Hope all is well with you and you're back in the shop soon!!Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James,
Thanks for the info about the Boss. Hope he is ok. You asked about my recovery from surgery. It is coming along fine. I went back to work about five days after the procedure. I can heal as well at work as at home. Each day it heals up a bit more. Thanks for asking.About the translation. The first page was a slog. Since then it has been going much better than I thought it would. I am up to page 70 out of 160. I have marked the passages that I can't get. When I get through the whole thing, I'll ask for your help with some passages, if you don't mind. And it has been interesting reading. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Glad to hear that you're feeling better.
Will be glad to help with translation.Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I'm good....
The original poster is absolutely correct. It doesn't take a kit of tools that would bankrupt Midas, nor does it take the best tools money can buy. I have a couple of Disston handsaws (rip and crosscut), old ones in very good shape and very 'collectible' as it were.
I gotta be honest, I end up doing most of my crosscutting and ripping with a damned Stanley toolbox saw - a little short saw with a Teflon coating and Japanese style teeth. The bleedin' thing has a rubber covered handle that is ultra-comfortable to use. I like the short length. I just leave it lying on the bench instead of ensconcing it in a 'saw till.' It cuts BEAUTIFULLY. When its impulse-hardened little life comes to an end I'll just throw it away and buy another one.
All sawcuts are dressed with a plane anyway (except some joinery cuts) so it really doesn't make much of a difference what saw you use, does it?
The bench planes I reach for the most are some late 90s Record (with plastic handles) I bought from Garrett Wade. They are flat and the sides are square to the sole. The irons are fine as far as I'm concerned. I hone them when they need it. I have no idea how these irons stack up with D-2, X-YZ-19, and ABC-123 steels and all that garbage. Metallurgy is a distraction to me. Honing is relaxing and a natural break during a busy day. The last thing I want to do is do away with my honing breaks. As I've said before, the thought of an edge that never goes off is abhorrent to me.
I love L-N as much as the next guy. I have some L-N planes but am not compelled to own every plane I need in its L-N iteration.
Edited 2/1/2007 12:09 pm ET by BossCrunk
I do find it interesting Boss that many an amateur has a huge collection of restored 19th., and early 20th., century planes along with a collection of Lie-Nielsen's, Clifton's, etc..
How I've struggled by all these years using my paltry selection of mostly very sneer-atable planes to make my living sometimes amazes me. Sure, I've got a couple of mid-priced ones, a Lie-Nielsen and a Clifton, and rather nice too. But all my 1970's purchased stanleys work fine as well. I have never really got the thing about D2 steel, cryogenic doo-dah's and so on either. I've always thought that if it's blunt, just sharpen the bloody thing.
Hell's bells, even my minimalist sharp'n'go methods with planes and chisels would horrify many people. I mostly just use one stone-- 800 grit, a minute or so sharpening, and back to work, but according to some that just wouldn't be good enough. I'm missing about five stages of further refinement to the point where I can split atoms.
I think Riverprof did have a point. There certainly can be a lot of twaddle talked about tools. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard & Boss,
First, greetings to The Boss, who's airy asides to we peasants have been greatly missed.
As to you, Richard - it is no good trying to be Boss-like as you just haven't got sufficient curmudgeon juice in your bloodstream to pull it off.
So, to the cheap planes and saws. My theories are these:
Richard could have made a lot more furniture and a lot more money if only he hadn't had to spend all that time messing about with, and constantly putting right, the ticky-tacky tools he bought when a lad. Oh the wasted hours; and what masterpieces have not seen the light of day as a result (woe, woe)!
We have not yet seen any pics of The Boss's furniture because it has too many chatter marks and rough saw cuts, of which he is secretly ashamed, although he tells his clients that these marks indicate the intrinsically superior hand made nature of the work ($5789 please).
Yes, there certainly is a lot of twaddle talked about tools.
If I was a philanthropist, I would take pity and get the two of you a Marcou each. However, you would only sell them to buy whiskey whilst insisting your Records and Anants are just as good (if sharpened every 4 swooshes and used only with nice white pine; and following 59,782 hours practice).
Lataxe, a good workman who credits his tools.
No Anant planes I'm afraid Lataxe. Just Stanley, Record, a Clifton, a Lie-Nielsen, a Speirs, a couple of crappy Norris planes from the late 1940's, and that's about it really.
I've done very little fiddling with any of mine. 10- 20 minutes to flatten a sole when needed. I don't think I've ever come across a plane sole that takes more time than that to flatten. 60 grit paper on a flat surface and it's done in no time. There's no need to get it shiny. Deep scratches are fine so long as it's pretty close to flat-- it means less friction for a start.
Irons don't take much work either to flatten, and a bit of fiddling with the cap iron and frog and you're off to the races so to speak. Most planes can be tuned up pretty much for life in an hour or less. I find it hard to understand how the job can take much more than a couple of hours, and that's for a near terminal case.
When you're ready with your philanthropy send over the Marcou. I'd gladly shove it in my tool-box ready for use. I never look a gift horse in the mouth, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I can relate to what you're saying. Whatever does the job, does the job. Years ago I played a lot of golf, at a very high level. You've got fourteen clubs in your bag, and no matter what the shot, one of them is the BEST one for that shot. Doesn't have to be the same one for the same application each time. They don't ask how, they ask how many.
Same thing, I believe, in a piece of furniture. Whatever way you get to the best finished product, the best quality you can turn out, works. I think new tools can be compared to the way golf has become. Everyone looks for the newest, high-tech club to help them cut strokes from their game. The clubs can help, no doubt, but if you don't learn how to use them, they're pretty worthless. And Tiger Woods, or Jack Nicklaus in his heyday, or any of the other greats, could take any old set of clubs and beat the fire out of just about anyone. There's some great new tools, and they can surely help a person speed up production, or do a job better, but it doesn't mean they will do the job better than an older tool.
They sure do like to market them like you can't live without them, though.
So -- ya think Tiger could have won that Buick tournament last week with the 14 clubs you used in your salad days? <G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yup, I sure do. A great player will find a way. They manufacture shots that nobody can even envision. That X factor, can't put your finger on it, but its there.
Richard,
Firstly, I'm gld to see you don't mind me being a bit rude to you now and then. :-) It's like this:
Here is this bloke with a load of WW knowledge and experience but who often feels a bit iconoclastic. (His Celt blood no doubt). How to get the bugger to come forth with his wisdom rather than indulging in sly digs at we over-enthusiastic little innocents wandering abroad in Knots?
Ah divn't knaa. Hence the odd goad or 3, hoping to get him, somehow, to put the dagger back doon ee's sock and tell us what he really thinks, at length.
Of course, trading insults is always good for the ego (good as in "makes slim and fit"). I presume that's why your nom-de-plume is "sock dagger" - that irresistable desire to prick about your here and there, to cause the hissing and deflation?
As to the fettling - happily the Marcous, LNs and LVs are free from the need, more or less. If you can make a modern Record work for more than 10 minutes, on anything other than easy stuff, before the next settle/fettle is needed, you are a magician.
Lataxe
Lataxe, the Smart,
"Ah divn't knaa."
Now what is that? It is beyond my ken. Please enlighten .Philip Marcou
I don't know, PhillipCheers,eddie
Edited 2/3/2007 3:05 am by eddiefromAustralia
Philip, << "Ah divn't knaa."
Now what is that? It is beyond my ken. Please enlighten .>> Must be some more of that faux Scottish...known in the local dialect as "Geordie," I believe.... (With apologies to the Jolly Bisquiteer.....)
.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus <!----><!---->dem<!----> <!---->Land<!----> der <!----><!---->Rio Grande<!----><!---->!!<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Semper Paratus!<!----><!---->
Pro Patria!
Chames, I have some knowledge of the local dialects there but that has got me beat-maybe it is a typo?And he is keeping mum about it too....Philip Marcou
How man, ye Philip!
Ah divn't knaa whet ye wis deein oot on that oil rig in the North Sea aall day. Ye shudder been larnin' Geordie, man. Ah mean, wuh wus oenly just ower the horizon, like.
Lataxe, whee probably hed yeh beach tar on his feet, Joni Mitchel-style, when 'e wez surfin' doon Marsden Bay.
They named a bay for Gerry Marsden?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
High,
Scousers and Scallies, such as that Gerry bloke, are only allowed into South Shields if they have a visa. We never give them one. :-)
Marsden is a common place-name around Britain as it is a Roman survival indicating a place (den) where there was an alter to the Roman god of war, Mars. Naturally, he was a favourite of the various Roman cohorts stationed around Britain. Typically these places are located where there is a cave or other natural place to house an alter of the pagan kind.
Marsden Bay has both Marsden Rock - a huge, cave-riddled sea stack; but also The Grotto, a system of sea-caves within the coastal cliff, currently a pub and restaurant.
When Ah wuz a lad, we would all go down there on the full moon to worship the aforementioned Mars before going off to deal savagely with The Hill Lads, enemies from the Horsley Hill estate nearby. We gave up on Mars fairly soon, as we always lost and had to skulk away nursing the bruises and split lips.
All in all, the Judeo-Christian tradition of cheek-turning and principles of duty seems a better option. Of course, I remain pagan at bottom, as I can't help it. (I blame The Hill Lads and their unjust ill treatment of my person).
Lataxe, quite dutiful most of the time.
Thanks for the background on the naming of the places. And to think they called that class I took in high school "World History". I am the product of public school education.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Twaddle... great word...
Boss, great to hear ya, we missed your input. It made us think twice or even three times. All the best, Paddy
ps. rest assured you are still the king of the white hot rant, all the others are pikers. pfh
Right On, Brother Paddy.
Boss,
I was asking about you because I missed your wisdom and your wit. Glad to see you are still here, and in fine fettle. Keep it up. We need you here. Thank you for your message.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hmmmm........All of this reminds me of the Rorschach ink blot. You and pzgren are seeing one thing in the prof's comments, while I am seeing something quite different. I don't always agree with his points, but I do think he has touched on some unpleasant truths, and I think he has done so in a manner that is both articulate and civil. I, for one, very much welcome his contributions around here.nikkiwood, who probably spent too much time hanging around with academics in a previous life.OR nikkiwood, who eschews biscuits for "real" joinery.<G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki,
"All of this reminds me of the Rorschach ink blot.
You and pzgren are seeing one thing in the prof's comments, while I am seeing something quite different".
I could opine something similar about a certain Mathew and his ardour concerning Festool thangs. :-)
The prof can be negative, cynical, holier-than-thou and rude if he likes. When he is all four at once I find myself heaving a small sigh of irritation. Perhaps we will just get used to him for what he is. After all, he has to do the same concerning us.
Lataxe, not biting just snarling a bit.
PS Here is a dollop of pity, from a gloating biscuit snobsnot to a poor, deprived, biscuitless person who would probably not even buy a Lamello Top 20 (the only reasonable choice, afetr all) were he to see the light. :-)
<<< The prof can be negative, cynical, holier-than-thou and rude if he likes. When he is all four at once I find myself heaving a small sigh of irritation. >>>Naw --- it's like spice in the stew. Or, a whack upside the head ..... something to make life more interesting amidst the "which TS should I buy" threads. nikkiwood, the philosopher........ and peacemaker.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Easy enough to find.
http://risd.edu/about_profiles.cfm?type=faculty&profile=faculty_profile_63.cfm
"Tage (pronounced “Tay”) Frid..."
Dan
Dan,
As Tage himself once offered (in print), "Tage Frid, rhymes with Hey Kid."
Rich
Thanks. Now that you mention it, I seem to remember seeing that somewhere.Dan
riverprof,
I was interested to see you comment on Toshio Odates' book.
from time to time---I wonder if I am the only person interested in the things he wrote---or if I am the only one who even tries to incorporate some of his lessons into actual practice.
I know that as a working tradesman( roofing contractor, occasional carpentry dabbler and recreational woodworker)---as a practical matter I can buy pretty much any tool I wish---and in fact "Uncle Sam" will help pick up the tab-----and yet some common sense restraint is in order. Since my skills are NEVER going to exceed the abilities of my old stanleys---the $6000 plane seems a bit silly----and I would never go there.
I re-read Odates books maybe 4-5 times a year( I am not very bright!)--I find they help me focus. I also note that some of the working professional tradesmen on this forum and this trade-------------subtley make some of Odates points in their own way( perhaps some truths are universal?)
BTW----i always enjoy when Odate shows his tools--the basis of his former trade. Really quite remarkable the astonishingly beautiful things made with an equally astonishingly compact assortment of simple--yet elegant ---- tools. We only need look at the "workbench" to know----it's not in the tools. LOL
but Odate makes some subtle points-----wish that he had wrote more--------and that I could track down some of his early FHB and FWW articles.
also BTW--------- cutting some joints this morning for a little project with a ryoba---- i must have paid all of $45 for it. More fun, more pleasure, and laughably MORE accurate than most things I have used the table saw and router on. also--more quiet, more CLEAN, More satisfying---and ultimately more feasible.----Have 15 minutes to spare----well I can pull out the saw, cut the joint, admire the result, enjoy the wood----and resume family responsibilities----before I would even have the damn jigs set up for the router LOL
anyway-----just glad I am not the only one who read odate-----best wishes to you,
Stephen
You are certainly not the only one who has studied some of Odate's work. I attended a workshop that he gave, oh must be 12 or 13 years ago now.....Amazing craftsman, an amazing person really. I took a lot away from those 2 days.
A story about that workshop that fits in a little bit with this thread. Odate spent a lot of time showing us his tools and explaining his reverence for them. A spiritual connection, really. During a coffee break in the session a fellow attendee strolled up to the bench where the tools were laid out and proceeded to handle the tools while casually talking with other folks. Odate saw this and lost it. He proceeded with a tongue lashing pointing out how rude and un-professional it was that he had touched the tools without permission. He had everyone's undivided attention the rest of the way.
Tools are used to earn a living, to survive. They need to serve their purpose. They are very personal in this regard. Everything else, a luxury. My opinion.
-Paul
P.S. You should have seen him plane a board on the planing beam. Amazing.
UnclePablo,
you are fortuneate to have met Toshio Odate, I imagine. If I had that opportunity, I am quite sure I would view it as a privilege as well.
The story you relate must have had as much an impact on Odate as it had on all of the attendees--------I think he later wrote about it in a book or an article--it sounds familiar------------
( Or perhaps at that time, at all his workshops he looked for someone to lambaste in order to make a point and teach a lesson you would ALL remember?,LOL :>)
your talk about the planing beam---is an important message as well. Professionally, I work at a different place every day or so--sometimes several different places in the same day------------consequently- portability and compactness of equipment is a major interest for me. Untill maybe a year ago---I worked( both at customers homes OR at my own home)---on various horses/trestles. I really enjoy the fluid atmosphere and I am not accustomed to thinking of a workbench as answer to planing, chiseling, sawing needs.
but about a year ago I stole an idea from an old carpentry manual dating back to the 40's-----and built a little planing bench. A six foot length of quite straight grained and knot free 2x12 and maybe 3 equally nice 2x6's--------and I use it to make some doors, and windows and some little tables etc.------probably cost me less than $50 and 3 hours to make---plus it's portable. I can take it outside if I want--even move it to customers homes. I can work in the garage at my place-or in the driveway, or down in my basement warm and dry----whatever "I" want
I guess the point is--if we think about what we really want to accomplish---the needs are really pretty simple.
this past fall--- i had a customer who is some sort of computer specialist. his office is the 3rd floor/attic of his home----he had some window requirements.
so at my place I laminated and built some eyebrow windows---then installed them at HIS place--------then cut a hole in the side of the house and installed a 3rd window. at one point the customer was working on his computer on one side of the room and his infant son was ASLEEP in the room directly below where I was working while I cut ,fit and trimmed out the 3rd window surround. simply would not have been possible if I fired up compound miter saw, or table saw or router-----and it was an immensley pleasant day.
i realize the way i work and think is not for everyone-----but it is quite practical--and profitable( I have 13 -14 years of my sons private school tuition receipts to back that up LOL)
so---to each his own, ehh?
Best wishes, Stephen
Yeah...it was an over the top sort of post, but satire has the element of truth in it. As far as the reactions, I'm reminded of the story of 2 englishmen who had just arrived in colonial India, and they encountered the Whirling Dervishes. "Oh dear," said one "what shall we do about these fellows?"
Replied the other...."let 'em whirl!"
<< Replied the other...."let 'em whirl!" >>Amen......to each his own <G>.....................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
oh,....for me, any pitchfork will do so long as it has a sturdy stap from which i can hang my cool satchel of imported beer. what's a mob worth if it can't be properly inebriated whilst stoning the local discount tool store?
such fun....still at work....12hrs...counting....tired!
Old, rusty and coated with horse manure.
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer (1891)
indeed.....as i give her a nother (remote) hug n smooch!
RP,
<<So I need to know: when you folks form into mobs with pitchforks, do you check to see that everybody's pitchfork has tines of cryogenically treated A-2 steel? Or will any old pitchfork do?>>
Naaah, any ol' pitch fork will do, just as long as the tines have been honed on Shapton water stones..... But, of course, some of us more snotty nose-in-the-air types are partial to Ray Iles' D-2 tines..... (BTW, that would be double-tempered cryogenically treated A-2 steel; at least git yer sarcasm right....)
Oh, and one other thing: this-here mob uses real genuine manilla rope for our lynchins, and that's real tar and chicken feathers that we're gonna apply while you're ridin' that rail after we pour boiling oil on ya..... And afterwards, we're gonna put ya on the rack, and then draw and quarter ya and... and... and.... ;-)~
Did I miss any other of them tired old cliches that might apply to a misunderstood poor persecuted perfesser?
<<removing tongue from cheek>>
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Uh, RP was correct about the D-2 steel. From the tools for working wood web site under the Ray Iles Mortise chisel page:
We did have a question about what metal to use. There were a couple of historically appropriate options: hammer-weld a cast steel cutting edge to a mild steel body, or make the entire thing out of cast steel. Real cast steel hasn't been available since the 1950's. So what do you do? Regular modern carbon steel would be okay, but we thought that the extra toughness of A2 might be better. But in England, where these chisels are made, A2 is hard to get in the sizes we needed. So we decided on D2, a slightly more expensive, more durable, overall better tool steel. Some people feel that A2 and D2 don't get as sharp as good traditional carbon steel, but this is less of an issue than it would be in, for example, a paring chisel, since mortise chisels don't need to be as surgically sharp. And the pummeling required by the mortise chisel's higher bevel angles makes the extra toughness of D2 a real boon. Ray thought that in D2, these chisels would stay sharp forever. He's off by a few years but the edge retention on these chisels is amazing.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-MORT.XX&Category_Code=TBMC
Ah Sam, Dear Boy, that is excellent stuff you are saying about D2- do carry on.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Psssst.... hey, didn't anyone tell you to keep a low profile? Some chap might end up recommending one of your planes...
-Andy
Andy,
You shouldn't have said that.
I just hit the lotto for a kazillion bucks, bought the biggest Snob Award on Knots, and am planning a hostile takeover of Marcou Planes. I am going to solicit the services of the Jolly Biscuiteer and Ray to draw up the papers and do the advertising!
The new plane, The Kidderville Swoosher will surpass the Holtey in snob appeal in short order, so you better place your orders promptly!
Snobbingly,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/30/2007 9:59 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 1/30/2007 10:01 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,"the Kidderville Swoosher"------ I think the new badge wants re-visiting.
However, the rest of the business plan (that of buying out Marcou Planes)makes sense, as you will be in a position to sponsor next years "Snob Awards" by donating the full range of USER planes (capitals for emphasis purposes , you understand).
It would be quite ironic if the Venerable Prof were nominated for an award, what with the Memorandum of Association of the new company listing names like J. Biscuiteer , R. Mahogany and H.E Engineer in the list of company directors.
Philip Marcou
Edited 1/31/2007 2:07 am by philip
"The new plane, The Kidderville Swoosher will surpass the Holtey in snob appeal in short order, so you better place your orders promptly!"You're not gonna chrome it, are ya?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Nope, thinking of all Ivory infill, ebony knobs/totes and metalflake on the sides!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Samson,
Thanks for the link. I've read that article; very interesting and informative.
There is also a stirring in my tool-acquisition gut for a set of them there pig-stickers, even though there's already a perfectly serviceable set of mortise chisels in my tool box. I suppose that I will probably break down one day and get them, just because they look like they will chop such nice mortises, and because Mr. Iles has put so much effort into making them properly. The fact that they are "traditional" in form and function also appeals to me a lot, for some reason. What can I say?Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
WE WON! WE WON! WE WON!
I think the prof. just might be turning the corner!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Jr oger H , Send me a check for $399.99 and I will send you your first snob lesson.
"Send me a check for $399.99 and I will send you your first snob lesson"
That's an awfully snobbish price. Does that include tax?
Maybe you can give me some explanation of this mentality.
I don't mind telling you that it mystifies me.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Maybe you can give me some explanation of this mentality.
Superiority complex?
david
explanation of the mentality :I chalk it up to the same reason I saw some 4th graders get into a fistfight over a Yankees vs. Red Sox discussion! Fan competition! However, I don't think that it's the same thing going on here.
-Andy
<< Fan competition >>I don't see that so much as similarities with religious cults. But whatever it is, it's an interesting phenomenon. And I agree that is not what's going on in this thread.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
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