Tools That Change Your Projects List
After passing through the Early Norm Phase (plywood carcases with dados and rabbets, solid wood face frames, some glue AND a few finishing nails or brads – just to hold things in place ’til the glue dries) I moved into solid wood furniture – and some of the classic joinery which go with it – mortise and tenon, dovetails in their various forms including sliding dovetails etc.. In my Neander Phase, I enjoyed laying out dovetails and mortise and tenon joints as well as handcutting them and tuning the fit. But after a while I realized that I was limiting my project lists to things I could actually do – by hand – in under a couple of months. Even with power tools, these joints took a fair amount of time and effort – and skill, to say nothing of the “tuning” tools that, though not absolutely required, were helpful to have – block plane, shoulder plane, rabbet plane, skew chisel, paring chisel etc..
Then I found Loose Tenon mortise and tenons – and a router and jig that made cutting them a lot easier than doing them by hand or with power tools not dedicated to the task. But there was still a fair amount of layout required and some tool set up to do BEFORE cutting the first mortise. So when it came time to design the next project, the layout time and set up time was always a consideration – and often the reason for either abandoning an idea or modifiying it to minimize the time and effort to do the joinery.
And now I’ve entered my DOMINO Phase. Freed from the tedium of layout and tool set up (ok so there is some tool set up – but it’s more numeric calculations – mostly with integers, not fractions or decimal fractions). Things I wouldn’t even consider doing because of what it would take to do all the mortises go back on the projects list. And then, rather than focusing on and spending a great deal of time planning and cutting the mortises, I can spend time working out proportions and details where they WILL show.
Simple case in point – a table, with apron and stretchers. With two mortises on each end of each apron part, and corresponding mortises in the legs, and another pair of mortises for each stretcher, along with the corresponding mortises in the legs that’s 48 mortises to cut. Even with a router and mortising jig, that’s more than just a bit of layout time and set up time, and with jigs you really have to keep track of parts orientation. If any part that requires end grain mortising on a part much longer than 36″, there’s time and effort to get the mortising jig up high enough to be able to cut those end grain mortises.
But with the DOMINO – all those mortises, even the end grain ones, are cut with the stock laying flat on the bench, and at the speed of cutting biscuits, but with the accuracy of the Leigh FMT or MultiRouter – with practically no layouts to do.
Before the DOMINO, by the time I’d cut all the mortises I was ready to be done with the project ASAP. But with the time saved on the mortises, I find that I’m paying more attention to edge treatments and including “clouds” and some carving details I just wouldn’t have done before. Triple mitered corners with loose tenons are now doable and cabinet door frames won’t be limited to cope and stick since strong mitered corners, with loose tenons, are so easy to do. Arts & Crafts stuff – with all those slats? No problem. Need mortises in the ends of a long buffet table apron? No problem Need to breadboard the ends of a table top? No problem.
Here’s a project that will use a ton of loose tenon joints – and it’s just something to hide the garbage can an recycling bins behind. I would never have even thought to do what I’m doing before the DOMINO. And the first “panel” looks really nice – showing off the quarter sawn con heart redwood (a good application of BLO didn’t hurt either).
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/GarbageSurround/GarbageSurroundTOC.html
Have you found a tool that changed your whole approach to designing a piece? If so, what is it and why did it change things?
charlie b
Replies
I'm lamenting the fact that for now, I'll hve to continue dreaming about a Domino.
And I am patiently waiting for some new furniture designs to become popular.
I'm thinking that a garden bench with a zillion vertical backslats is suddenly a wonderful idea. And a half a zillion slats holding up the arms. With a seat made from more slats.
Barstools done the same way, even dinette sets.
And who needs to use the loose tennons for such projects. Why not just make the slats the right size to fit in a Domino hole?
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
This may sound a little simplistic (and it may be like nails down a chalkboard for some the joinery experts here), but the one tool that has changed everything I do is the nail gun. Both the 16g and 18g guns have changed everything that I do.
I was going through my supplies and found several boxes of finish nails of assorted sizes and I couldn't remember the last time I pounded in a nail.
I can do projects faster, more accurate (less slippage due to hammer hits), less damage from errant hammer whacks, etc. I do mostly cabinet work, and it's amazing how much more confidence I have to make new, larger, more extensive pieces.
I would agree with JMadson (although many purists would cringe) that my nail guns have really allowed me to tackle some bigger projects, can't even think of the last time I pounded a nail.
The other thing that changed the way I do things is pocket-screws, like Kreg's. Wonderful tool once you get used to it.
Charlie,
My kids have been teaching me to "recycle". It makes the world "greener". Well, a few days ago, I responded to a post, and after reading your message, I have decided to recycle my response, and post it again here to you, since you are into Dominos. Hope you enjoy it. Here it is.
Mel
S,
Why would anyone use dovetails any more? Now that the Festool Domino is here, most other forms of joinery are things of the past. I expect that the Lie Nielsen company will completely fold up. I know that not every body has jumped on the Domino bandwagon yet, but I have heard that many people didn't like the wheel when it first came out. Actually, and you may not have known this, the first model of the wheel was not round, it was square. The second model was triangular. That produced one less bump as it "rolled". Eventually the round version came. Now everyone uses them. Same thing will happen with the Domino. It may just take a few months.
Just think of how much the Domino saves you. You no longer need a dovetail saw, or a tenon saw. You don't need a shoulder plane any more. Those Dominos almost pay for themselves. I suppose you could still keep your chisels to knock hardened glue off your glue-ups, and to lift errant nails out.
I surely will miss the hand cut dovetail and the hand-cut M&T, but like the buggy whip, they are now things of the past.
Have fun.
Mel
PS - there are no facts in the above message. :-)
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Morning charlieb,
Without question I would have to say hand tools have changed they way I do my projects, but they haven't necessarily changed the project list. Hand tools have made my woodworking fun, as it should be.
Having slid a bit down the slippery slope, I find myself grabbing a hand plane when in the past it would have been the sander or some other power tool. Another large gain is the peace and solitude in the woodshop. I can actually listen to the radio again!
I also like the piles of shavings scattered about all over the floor and I don't have to clean as often. They also provide great cushioning for finished pieces; especially if they are being shipped, instead of the synthetic crap! Much more environmentally friendly too.
In the past when planning/making case goods I would have never entertained dovetail joints. Rabbets, dados etc. You know, the more I think about dovetails, I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way to make them, by hand. Get out the bevel guage, making knife and carpenters pencil to highlight the lines. Lay out the tails and cut them out; then use them to layout the pins. It's actually FUN! My list is growing all the time.
I'm sure to catch a ration of +)(+( for that statement! Hope I don't get assinated phillip. Haven't done the blind ones yet for fear that they won't be seen! Oh, that was bad....... They are in the offing for the next project, which requires several drawers.
Another tool that has radically changed they way I work is my dial caliper. I'm constantly using it to check the thickness of just about everything; from sizing screws, dowels, depth of mortises, you name it. Also this tool have radically improved my accuracy such that I don't know how I survived this long without it.
Oh and another thought. These hand tools have also changed my thinking about dust collection too. I'm now looking for a good/quiet portable solution as my use of all these dang power tools has dimished (WOW, another new word!). With only one tool is running at a time, central DC just doesn't make sense, for me anyway. So now they've saved me money too!
Great discussion charlieb. I apologize for reversing your discussion from the Domino and kinda going back in time you might say.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'd have to say this happens nearly every time I buy new tools. Of course I'm still in the phase where I am acquiring the basics. I'm not likely to make bookmatched panels till I get that bandsaw I want. Funny how nice tapered legs are my "style" when it comes to legs, since I don't have a lathe to use to turn wood.
Scott
I guess I'm backward. I think about a design or new process, then if I need the tool to assist, I get it.Sorry, but I just can't see pneumatic nailers & staplers changing the way I work much. Yes, I have them and use them but only for speed and to keep pieces from moving when being attached.I have dial calipers, but I can't say that I use them the way Bob@KVA does. I had to make an auxiliary piece at client's a few months ago. He volunteered to take me to his shop, where he pulled out a dial caliper, set his fence with same, and proceeded to rip a piece. Only problem was there was so much slop in the original design, anything within 1/8" would have worked fine. My wife is an accountant and normally within a $million or two is "substantially correct." I told her she should bring home some of the scrap off the floor sometime.
I kind of did things backwards, and started with just a 7-1/4-in skill saw, and basic hand tools, (hammers; a back saw and miter box; two hand saws one to rip, one for crosscuts; an electric drill; two cheap (in the truest meaning of the word) hand planes; and some saw horses).
Then added a router, that changed things a lot.
Router Table, changed things even more.
A slab door "bench" that lived on the saw horses for three years. That was a quantum leap forward, because I didn't have to assemble things on the kitchen table or floor any more.
The "Pro-Ftr" straight edges, it became far easier to cut up plywood into straight and true pieces. Hence easier to build boxes.
A Kreg jig, along with an electric drill with a clutch, (Ryobi is the only manufacturer who still makes them). Pocket hole face frames, did wonders to speed things up.
A portable planer, I was still buying s4s hardwood, and designing around the width and thickness it came in, and then truing joints with the planes. The planer let me bring all of it down to 3/4-in from the 13/16 it comes, and true all of them to width by running a bundle through on edge.
Then a Porter Cable biscuit joiner, which let me make truer boxes quicker.
Then finally, I moved to a house, and could set up shop for real. I bought a Delta Contractors saw, (extreme good deal for $200 at HomeDesperate because they found it hiding on a shelf two years after they quit carrying them), and built my first "bench" and assembly tables that actually don't break down after every project. Surprisingly, the table saw has had less impact on what I build than the bench and assembly table.
Finally, a Woodrat I found at a garage sale, and bought because I was trying to figure out how to build a machine that does what the rat does, and needed a way to move in two axis, and the nested extrusions in front of me did that. I talked them down to $20, because they didn't have any idea what it was either. Imagine my surprise when I googled WoodRat, and discovered it was the machine I had been figuring out how to build for about six months. It changed what I do, and and how I do it, more than any other machine I have ever bought.
Finally, a Woodrat I found at a garage sale, and bought because I was trying to figure out how to build a machine that does what the rat does, and needed a way to move in two axis, and the nested extrusions in front of me did that. I talked them down to $20, because they didn't have any idea what it was either. Imagine my surprise when I googled WoodRat, and discovered it was the machine I had been figuring out how to build for about six months. It changed what I do, and and how I do it, more than any other machine I have ever bought.
Can you imagine the fight that ensued when some poor schlub got home from work and found his wife had sold his Woodrat in a garage sale for $20 ?? Oh - the humanity!!
I bought one a couple months ago before a price increase kicked in but have resisted the temptation to even take it out of the box until I get a couple other projects completed first. I think the WR is going to change a lot for me too. I needed a way to do slot mortising on the mitered ends of profiled shapes. The WR will be able to handle that but I first want to see if it's possible to make the router plate pivot so that I can go diagonally as well as both side/sde and fore/aft. I've got a couple of ideas but haven't dove into that project yet.
If you build it he will come.
All us 'ratters visit this page regularly:
http://www.aldel.co.uk/
Actually, what changed my work more than anything was getting away from the tooling that limited and controlled my work and designs. Learning to work by hand gave me freedoms I never had under the constraints of doing every thing by machine.
But I am amazed at what some will spend for gadgets. For about twice the price of the Domino you can get a real machine, one that has ample power and accurate control. Have you ever cut a 3/4" wide slot 1 1/4" deep in a single pass without hearing a machine labor? What if you want to move your slot a couple thousands of an inch? What if you wanted to work with a little brass or other metal?
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Unfortunately Grizzly hasn't done much to provide tooling for their Wood Mill and you have to make a lot your own to even get close to the capability of the machine.
Machinist precision is way over the top when it comes to making solid wood furniture - but nice to have - if you've got the space - and dollars. A mill, vertical or horizontal, with a precision XY table (ok so include the Z axis as well) doesn't provide anyting when you're working on end grain of anything over a foot or so long. And the "throat" limitation is also a problem. A mill might be useful to make METAL parts - for modifying existing woodworking tools and machines - but for furniture making? charlie b
"...Machinist precision is way over the top when it comes to making solid wood furniture..."
I used to think that too. Then one day I bought a good set of dial calipers and discovered I was already working to those tolerances. For instance, the face surfaces of a mortise and tenon joint offset by the thickness of a dollar bill was completely unacceptable. I considered my joinery horribly sloppy if I was that far off and certainly planed or sanded those surfaces flush to fix it. The paper a dollar bill is printed on is four thousandths of an inch thick. If a tenon is four thousandths of an inch too big, it won't go in a mortise and, if that tenon is four thousands of an inch too small, the joint is unaceptably loose.
I was working to machinist tolerances by trial and error, sneaking up on final dimensions. It didn't take long to figure out ways to limit set-ups to one or two test cuts when I actually started measuring with tools accurate enough to tell me what I really needed to know. A lot of the struggle went away and I saved a lot of time.
BTW, the head of the mill swings and is mounted on a ram that moves in or out. This makes it possible to work off the back of the table and outside the normal center of the machine. I can work the ends of pieces three or four feet long. I could easily make joints for loose "tenon" joinery and do it so the "tenons" actually properly fit producing acceptable joints. I can't imagine doing that, though. It's easier to make real tenons and they're a lot better anyway.
Sounds like a useful machine. It's nice that you have the shop space for it. I assume that regardless of where the "head" is, you still need to secure the part with clamps, still need some layout lines to align the cutter to and still have to do that alignment. All that takes time - in return for precision - which may or may not actually be required for most furniture applications.As for the fit of a mortise and tenon joint - I would shoot for "spit tight" fit. Dry fit the joint and turn it upside down so the tenoned part could fall out - but wouldn't - without a little pull. Spit on both sides of the tenon, push it into the mortise and it'd be hell to get back out.BUT - a mortise and tenon joint (of course not a through mortise) that has only 0.001" slop can be a problem when glue is added. Unless you're using a porous wood - like oak (I think it's red oak you can blow through) - you'd be compressing air inside the joint and, if you don't allow for extra glue at the bottom of the mortise - trying to compress a liquid (glue) - which is very difficult to do.So when you do "acceptable fit" mortise and tenon joints, how do you deal with the potential compression of air and glue problem?On wide or thick parts, rather than use one big tenon, do you use mutliple smaller tenons to avoid the problem of differences in expansion between "acrossed the grain movement" on the tenon and the lesser expansion "with the grain" on the mortised part?Unless you're doing an almost absolute minimalist piece, like some of the chinese chairs, where you only use just enough wood to perform its function and little more, is the difference in strenght of a "real" mortise and tenon joint and an equal sized "loose tenon" mortise and tenon joint actually significant? Would a joint that might experience 350 pounds of shear force be a problem if it can only withstand 1000 pounds rather than 1200 pounds?As for calipers, as I noted in an earlier post, your apt to find one in a european woodworker's shop apron and see it used. In the U.S. woodworkers are more apt to hold a pocket tape or ruler to the board to check its thickness - usually expecting 1/2, 3/4 or 1" instead of "the same thickness as the other parts that all need to be the same thickness".
The folks I bought the rat from went to the claimer auctions at the storage places, and then sold the stuff at their garage sale once a month. After ebay got popular they shifted over to there, she quit her day job, and they quit having the garage sales.
I was living in Vegas then, and a lot of people would move there because there were always jobs, and find out they had problems with drinking or gambling, and end up abandoning their storage units when they went "home". Vegas is not a good place for those who have a tendency to gamble or drink too much. Both can be done 24/7. Unlike most places that close the bars, Vegas has no "Last Call".
Back to the Rat: You can rotate the axis about ten or fifteen degrees, (not sure how much, I've never measured). That is an integral part of how it cuts the pins for dovetails.
But, by clamping the piece in at different angles you can cut almost any angle, or compound angle you can think of.
I've got my rat in a box right now. I moved last year and am just now getting to set up shop.
Edited 6/17/2007 11:38 am ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
Like others I found the Woodrat provided me with not just the ability but the confidence to make some quite complex joints. It's as great an innovation as was the router itself, in my opinion - especially if you take advantage of all theadditions and techniques discovered and published on various 'ratter web sites.
It has to be admitted also, though, that becoming skilled with hand tools, especially high quality handtools, lights the way to all sorts of stuff you might otherwise have avoided because a machine either cannot do it well or at all.
I have found it surprising what even I, a cack-handed jobsworth, can do with a couple of Veritas spokeshaves. From greenwood chairs that need no glue (and are extremely comfortable) to the organic variations of Greene & Greene roundovers - the spokeshaves do it all and loh - I am making furniture that is not confined to the rectilinear.
I stil fancy a Domino, though.
Lataxe
Back to the Rat: You can rotate the axis about ten or fifteen degrees, (not sure how much, I've never measured). That is an integral part of how it cuts the pins for dovetails
Yeah, I know about the slight DT angle but I need to do some stuff at 30 and 60 degrees from the extrusion while simultaneously tipping up at a 45. I've got the 45 covered as I also bought the tilt clamping jig. If need be I can rig up some angled clamping blocks to get the other angles but I'm going to put my noggin at seeing if it's possible to make a mod to the way the base plate attaches so that I can pivot it in either direction. I looked around the aldel site but haven't spotted anything along those lines. Once I get my other projects out of the way I plan to do some test joinery to see if any ideas surface.
If you build it he will come.
I'm sure you can modify the plate to get a bigger angle. But if you think things through you shouldn't have to do it. If you want to do it, that is a different animal.
Charlie, do you have a web site for DOMINO?
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DOMINO/DOMINO_TableOfContent.html
Thanks for this post, Charlie. I think you are smart to recognize the link between the tool and the project. For a long time, tool manufacturers have been claiming their tools do everything, but that wasn't really true, was it? So at risk of sounding condescending, bravo.
Working with no power saws, only hand saws, is by far the biggest influence on my projects. I'm all but completely unable to work effectively with plywood. Using hand saws drives pretty much everything I do (project wise) and also drives many many down-stream processes.
I understand those who would question my sanity at forgoing power saws. That's fine. But after a single project without power saws, I think its glaringly obvious that tools influence what you can do and what the final product looks like.
You may be surprised at the number of period craftsmen who argue this point. To some extent, I think Norm Abrahm and many woodworking authors attempt (unsuccessfully in my opinion) to show the flexibility of their tools. "Today, we are going to machine a windsor chair. Next week I'll be machining kitchen cabinets out mdf".
I think Norm's show and many magazine articles (perhaps including mine) would be more interesting if they discussed how one's choice of tools effects the projects they can tackle and maybe the final form of those projects.
I apologize for this long and overly enthusiastic reply
Adam
Edited 6/18/2007 4:57 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Adam (et.al.):There are so many ways to see the question I posed. As you note, the tools do influence the choice of projects, the design and the joinery used therein. Of course hand tools and the knowledge of when and where and how to use them, along with the skills to do so, provide the broadest range of possibilitieis when it comes to designing a project - and then executing it, either to the letter or adapting/evolving as it's built. And where it shows, the skilled use of them can produce details and surfaces difficult or impossible to attain with power tools and sandpaper (though a surface sanded to 4000 grit will get damned close to one finished with a good cabinet or card scraper).Early on, shortly after being hooked on woodworking by Norm (and Roy),a mentor pointed me towards James Krenov and George Nakashima. Krenov's book The Impractical Cabinetmaker struck a chord with me. The idea of "Do a few things but do them as close to perfect as you possible" is still something I aspire to. His work is so clean and pure and simple (at least they appear simple - 'til you try to make something similar and realize There's No Place To Hide a mistake) - I could live with his stuff for a lifetime. Though he's far more subtle, Krenov follows a version of Caravell's "It's the economy stupid!" - "It's the wood stupid! A fair to decent piece done using nice wood and executed well, will be nicer than an equally well executed piece made with poorer wood and grain selection. It must be noted that James Krenov does small pieces - no wall of shelves, no big fireplace surround, no big doors, no long sideboards or buffets.No power tool can provide the finesse a good hand tool can - if prepared properly and used well - an edge eased just so, a drawer fit to its opening for a perfect match and smooth operation, a door or drawer pull made specifically for a piece and placed and attached just so. These are things handtools make possible.Handtools operate at human speed - their beauty - and weakness. Handtools give you feedback on how things are going, tactiliy and, if you pay attention - aurally. You can actually hear and feel when something at the working end just isn't right - and do something about it BEFORE it changes from a small problem to a full blown mini-disaster. With power tools, you often don't become aware of a problem until after it has happened - the feeling and sound of the process being overwhelmed by the noise and rate of the process.But there's that Ying and Yang thing - handtools take time to learn to sharpen, set up and use properly. What you gain in finesse and finish, you pay for in time - and some sweat and maybe some soreness. But I must admit, shaping a table leg with a GNT Gordon spokeshave, or cutting a bead with the LN beading tool sure feels nice - the curlies around my ankles a nice indicator of what was done - time not being an issue. And then there are the Zen Moments - when you and the tool and the wood all do EXACTLY what they're supposed to do - effortlessly - just so. THEN time disappears, and it's just three parts of a pure thing doing - the rest of the universe vanishes. (If that all sounds like a bunch of hippy-dippy BS to you - well pity you - maybe someday you'll be part of a Zen Moment and understand). I've NEVER experienced a Zen Moment using power tools. Maybe it's the noise - and the adrenaline - and the "healthy respect" (read "almost fear of cutting off one or more appendages, or, at best, a chunk of skin and maybe some muscle and bone") one needs when using a 3 horsepower tool, spinning sharp pieces of carbide at a frightening speed when you thing about it. The sound of a 10", Forrest WWII spinning up to speed still sometimes raises the hair on the back of my neck (the "head of hair" being LONG gone - the result of a proceeding forehead).Then there's the "cognitive friction" thing - the mental gymnastics required to understand the cause and effect. Let's take a through dovetail joint for example. When you lay the joint out by hand it's clear why you're doing what your doing. And IF you MARK THE WASTE SIDE!, you know where your saw should be placed and when to stop sawing. Removing the waste in the sockets, be it by chopping with a chisel, getting close with a coping saw or some other method - it's obvious what your doing will accomplishes.Now think of using a router and a dovetail jig like the Leigh or the Aked, or a special fence on a router table with paper templates (the Incra and JoinTech come to mind, the WoodRat as well) . I know of no hand tool that comes with a 100 plus page manual on how to use it , with hundreds of photographs and diagrams (OK so the AKEDA manual is considerably shorter - but you still need a manual). If you follow the instructions, the more closely the more apt the resulting joint will fit nicely, you will end up with a dovetailed joint. But while performing the operations prescribed, what is being done and how it gets you to where you want to go is typically vague and fuzzy - almost a version of techon-magic. "I do this, then this, then this ... and I get this!" If the results are less than perfect, the analysis of the problem required to mitigate it can be a real brain teaser. The source of an ill fitting dovetail is more obvious when handcut.ON THE OTHER HAND - like shop floor and wall space, time is a factor in what we design and make, and how we do it. With handtools, there is a learning curve and time spent developing muscle memory to work with the tool - and the wood. But it'slike riding a bike - once you learn, you never forget. Though days or weeks or years have gone by since the last use - after a little initialy wobbling - it comes back to you. Wait a few months and then try using that router and jig - without rereading the instructions - a couple of times.So hand tools have their place, as do power tools. Even the Shakers weren't ones to sweat for the sake of sweating when a water wheel powered bandsaw or circular saw could make life a little easier - and make time for some nice, simple details.I'll continue to work with both hand and power tools - whichever does the job, given the situation (you can use hand tools at 2 am and not have to speak with policeman or sherriff.BUT - the DOMINO has opened up a whole range of possibilities that would have involved way too much grunt work to even consider doing otherwise.charlie b
charlie b,
Incredible! That was just perfect for me.
I copied and pasted it for future reading. Hope you don't mind.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
charlie b,snop>I copied and pasted it for future reading. Hope you don't mind.Bob @ Kidderville Acres No problem. Hope you correct the spelling errors, letters that
shouldn't be there, letters that should be there but aren't, grammatical errors etc. .charlie b
charlie b
I just thought of a tool that has radically changed my project list; it's called Knots!
Before participating here I would have never considered making a Queene Anne interpretation piece as I asm now in the process of making. I most likely would not have made the workbench that I'm proud of and enjoy using immensely.
I would most likely not have the assortment of fine power and hand tools that I now own and use almost daily. With retirement in the near future thoughts of spending more time in the woodshop occupy my mind.
Thanks for putting up this great discussion.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Charlie,
Being an old hippie, I have come to feel that my whole life is one long zen moment (whatever that is). :-) It must have been all them funny fags (British fags not the US kind).
Is the overall import of your post meant to be that it's good to be able to enjoy the here-and-now (and one's unfolding moments within it) rather than placing one's mind elsewhere in an imagined halcyon past or perfected future, filled with, respectively, perfect 18th century workbenches or CNC machines that sprout out of your shoulder and obey your design-thoughts? If so, I'm with you.
That halcyon past is but a few degraded synaptic connections or a bit of contagious-meme history (written by one axe-grinder or another); whilst the perfected future is a thing of Erehwon and advertising orcs.
However, I feel you are letting a little of that neanderthal prejudice creep into your musings, as you seem agin' the idea that power tools can meld with your person as you work, in a fashion similar to that sometimes found with the spokeshaves and chisels. In fact, power tools can be groked and internalised just as well as handtools. Flying a modern fighter plane (I imagine) must be the ultimate expression of such a man-machine meld.
In all events, like you I'll continue to try new tools and to acquire the associated skills (including via 100-page Woodrat manuals or 200-page books on planes). Also, I refuse to be frightened of them routers and tablesaws, even though I tend to handle them like I do the cat - confidently, but still aware of the teeth, claws and the kind of personal behaviour that encourages the feline monster to employ the sharp thangs in my sensitive person.
Of course, I have cut myself with a chisel (in a mere year of hand tool working) many times, whilst the TS has never touched me in 10 years.
Yes, those routers are my furry friends and the TS is nobbut a friendly old pooch at heart. Of course, that makes the planes a gang of hamsters and the handsaws are probably gerbils (they nip a lot but don't chew you up like the cat can).
I am off now to try and bring myself down from the fluffy clouds of simile and allegory that this thread has put me on.
Lataxe, shed monk
Lataxe, and all;
A few random thoughts.
The simple (!) carpenter's framing square, as sold by stanley has probably had as many 100 page books written on its usage, as any power tool. Course the books are as obsolete as those who used to know how to cut a jack or hip rafter with a square and a handsaw.
I was going to suggest that a lathe is the one tool that does something that no other tool can replicate, til I remembered the table I once refinished that had "turned" legs which had been whittled by the owners dad, a dedicated craftsman who made them with a drawknife and a rasp.
Then there is the small inlaid box I was shown by an older gent who had been a guard in WWII at a p.o.w. camp. The box was given him by a German pow whom he'd befriended. It was made from bits of wood from an orange crate, shaped and joined almost literally by hand. The inlay was done with a bit of broken hacksaw blade, so I was told.
Did you know that you can make a glue joint with a sanding block, sandpaper, and black shoe polish? That's how I did it on the first case piece I built, in '71, still together today.
Let's don't let our tools, or lack of them, limit our imaginations. The Victorians with their newfangled jigsaws and steam-powered lathes, thought they had to use them on everything they built. All of a sudden, you have a Kregaminostool biscuit pocket screwer and discover mdf and malamine have made wood, joined with tenon and mortise, so yesterday. Or you refuse on principle, to let your handsaw be tainted by a whiff of plywood. Be like Count Basie: free your mind, and your a$$ will follow!
Ray
This thread sure has headed off in a lot of different directions - all interesting and most quite useful. How else could you explain grok being introduced - and in a meaningful way - if you've read Stranger In A Strange Land (or was it Dune?). And I'm not sure if "halcyon" was supposed to be "halycon" (the former being a pharmaceutical amnesiacI think we've got one view - basically from the pros who make things for others willing to pay for it, for whom time is money and close enough and a bit more is good enough, and another the amateur for whom time is not money and the finished piece is merely a post card from a journey, the piece often given away to make room for the next foray into another corner of woodworking.The pro is pragmatic and realizes that it's often a good business decision to spend money to make more money. Amateurs, unconstrained by the requirements of making a living doing woodworking, range from someone working on a kitchen table in an apartment to someone with a 1000 sf shop and EVERY power tool available, from the best manufacturers.Pros are more like scientists - willing to abandon a way of doing things if a better one comes along - that they can afford to adopt and use it - to make more income.Amateurs are more like alchemists, trying all sorts of things to convert pieces of wood into something that will be treasured - or at least used and maybe passed on, and tend to stick with things that provide them with satisfaction rather than currency.Now to specificsI'll have to think about power tools and Zen Moments and reconsider my belief that the two are mutually exclusive. I have had a Zen Moment or two while turning. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of furniture making power tools - joiner, planer, tale saw, miter saw, maybe a shaper and a random orbital sander or router. Come to think of it, the bandsaw has provided a Zen Moment or two or three as a piece of wood is opened to reveal, as if by magic, a bookmatched pair of OH! boards, perfect for a cabinet door panel or a pair of drawer faces.Yeung Chan is a Bay Area woodworker who has a love for joinery, mainly chinese / asian joinery. While poor, he made his own tools and figured out ways of making many of the traditional chinese joints. Now that he's making more money- and becoming well known, he seems to be doing more of the grunt work using power tools - and even has a book out on how he does it. So maybe there is the possibility of finding Zen Moments while using power tools.Compressed air powered finish nailers were also given as a tool that changed the approach to projects (with expectations of being chastised for admitting that). To which I say "If it works for you, and gets you to make things you wouldn't have tried otherwise, or makes it easier - more power to you!" With the 23 gauge pin nailers that drive "pins" so small you have to look REALLY REALLY hard to see, if you can find one at all are available today and some will drive pins long enough for crown molding. Unlike finish and brad nail guns, there's no need to putty indentations left on the surface of the piece by thepin nailers bigger siblings. I for one wouldn't hesitate to use a pin nailer if I had three or four drawers that were having cock beading applied. And I'm thinking shooting a couple in the ends of a mitered corner, while holding the joint together would be fine as well. If I were to do pieces with a lot of molding this thing would be my choice of a Go To tool.Finally getting around to make a real woodworking bench had a very significant effect on my projects list. Ironically, you almost need a real woodworking bench to make a real woodworking bench. While it looks like a mere bench, it's actually one very versatile clamping system - esepcially with a Twin Screw Vise on the end.What about CAD? For me, the primitive one I use for some design work is analogous to the word processor. I don't hesitate to save what I've got to a file, then make changes I wouldn't make if I had to erase a bunch of lines, and lose that version of the design, in order to explore another possibility for an area of a piece. What tool changed how you approach designing a project / piece?charlie b
Charlie,
You mention that:
"Ironically, you almost need a real woodworking bench to make a real woodworking bench. While it looks like a mere bench, it's actually one very versatile clamping system - esepcially with a Twin Screw Vise on the end".
It's certainly true that you can't easily use handtools without a very solid, flat surface inclusive of multiple gripping options. I built one last year, mainly from odds & sods of timber around the woodstore but with a top made from some thick rock maple that I managed to get cheap (offcuts from a friend's Big Joinery business) and laminate.
There are some pics here:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33822.137
This bench is a Very Heavy Beast and I did struggle to make it without another bench to rest everything on. Nevertheless, ways and means were found. This bench and its under-cupboards were also the first thang I laid them handtools upon (excepting the practice stuff on scrap). In the early stages the bench parts were ostly machined but as it was assembled it became a (growing) basis to do hand tool stuff on.
Now it is indispensible and festooned with many devices or device-holes to mount various wood-grabbers (including two Veritas twin-screws).
So, when you ask:
"What tool changed how you approach designing a project / piece"?
I can include that bench, which certainly is the basis (literally) of all my new handtool skills and practices.
However, there is a list of tools that, on reflection, have enabled me to make a bound or a leap in the woodworking (rather than a slow shuffle, inclusive of stumbles and shin banging):
Power tools (router, RO sander, TS and planer/thicknesser) freed me from the crappy handtools that I bought ten years ago, when I started WW. It took me ages (and 10 months of tennis elbow) to handtool a coffee table together. Post-powertool acquisition, I immediately made things in a tenth of the time and with far greater accuracy.
The planer/thicknesser has allowed me to use many kinds of free (reclaimed) timber, that can be turned from grotty lumps into pristine planks, in no time. I have got access, via the P/T, to many exotics that otherwise I could never have afforded or even found at timber merchants.
Next has to be the Woodrat, which allows precision joinery of every kind, that will probably take a zillion hours of handtool practice to match (I am still going to try). Using a Woodrat meant a big leap in versatility for me.
The biscuit jointer (a proper one, not one of them ticky-tacky ones that put many people off) was another eye-opener. It can do many M&T style tasks very quickly indeed. (Let us not argue, here, about the relative merits of biscuits v proper M&T - the biscuits do a satisfactory and rapid job, if used properly). I imagine the Domino is the next evolution and will almost make the biscuit obsolete.
Moving on to handtools (proper ones, after 9 years of machines-only) I had my eyes opened by the difference in quality-made (usually expensive) tools and those cheap ones I once tried long ago. Although you can argue that it's begining to invoke the law of diminishing returns, a Marcou smoothing plane will deal with virtualy any timber, even the horrible things that Lie Nielsens or Veritas can't quite manage without a bit of tear out. I rarely have to use a scraper, even on those exotics.
Similarly, Wenzloff saws and Blue Spruce chisels also strain that LoDR a bit but allow many more zen moments of handtool work, I suspect, than do other tools that are not so close to perfection as are these items.
Of all the handtools, for me its the spokeshaves that have made the greatest difference. I am having a great deal of trouble trying to shape things with chisels but the spokeshaves are easy to use and have taken me away from the linear look to much more curvy, organic stuff than I ever managed with machine tools.
No doubt there is a carving chisel out there somewhere that will allow me to make another leap into Real Furniture of the kind that suggests you feel it as much as look at it......
Lataxe, more zig & zag than zen.
I'm in the cabinet making world and my top tools are the following:
Sketchup (design - replaced AutoCAD)
CutList (optimized sheet layout).
brad nailer (for tacking together cases/drawers before they are screwed).
Porter Cable 6" ROS (I make my own doors). Will never touch my DW 5" ROS again.
Nathan
Ya gotta love the Twin Screw. Takes a woodworking bench up a notch in terms of clamping options. A shoulder vise comes in handy too, though I need to cut down the screw on mine and redo that end of the bench apron - as is it sticks out way too far.http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DasBench/CBbench35.htmlYou also raised the point about shaping tools. So much of what is being done by amateur woodworkers (not meant in any derogatory or condescending way) is flat work (eg A&C, Greene
& Greene, Stickley, MacIntosh (sp?) ) - because it's easier to do things with rectangular parts - simplifying the joinery work significantly. Acquiring and learning to use a spoke shave,
along with riffler files and wood rasps and files can
significantly change the look of the things you make. Of course
there's more planning involved when working out the joinery - but the result can be far more interesting than an assemblage of a bunch of flat stuff. Curves beg to be touched / explored / caressed. A Maloof rocker, unlike a Stickley rocker, is something to be explored, visually and tactily - one shape blending seamlessly, literally, into another - a continuous, uninterrupted flow.charlie b
Charlie,
Nice bench, athough I dunno why you put that old-fashioned shoulder vise on it when another twin screw could live there and be a shoulder vise too. (You make the right hand end of the jaws longer, beyond the right hand screw. The left hand screw serves as the shoulder) :-)
I have a theory that some innovations (evolutions of the tradition) will eventually displace older designs that they have made redundant. Only stubborn old woodworkers keep them redundant things going, because they like the familiar (and nothing wrong with that).
I contend, for instance, that twin screw vises make most other vises (excepting the pattern makers) redundant, as a twin screw can emulate the actions of them all, if required. (Although Mr Lee needs to figure out how to get a quick release on to the twin screw). Also, no wracking and a capacity as big as you like.
There is also the matter of modern bevel up planes, which make me wonder why anyone wants a bevel down plane, seeing as how (unlike BUs) they can only have one angle of planing, unless you have an expensive LN 50 degree frog to swap out for the 45 degree one (but it's still just two angles rather than the infinite possibilities of a BU). Also, those old cap irons are just another thing to fettle.
There, I have been contentious and all may find fine examples which prove me to be completely wrong. :-)
As to the Arts & Crafts linear styles - well, let's not get carried away. I like them, personally, because they are linear, simple, utilitarian. I confess to having fallen in love with the curvy nature of Greene & Greene, though; and even have a hanker to make a sinuous French thang.
However, my taste does not run to even Maloof chairs, which I find spooky and alien. As to them scuttle-leg thangs of the C18, with their many fandangles and foldedoys - they tend to make me laugh, unless its dark and then they are rather sinister - not wanted in my hoose, anyway.
Still, some of that Art Deco stuff has always appealed......
Lataxe, feeling a bit iconoclastic.
Tovarich Lataxe,
<< I confess to having fallen in love with the curvy nature of Greene & Greene, though; and even have a hanker to make a sinuous French thang. >>
'Tis indeed a slippery, slippery slope. First A & C, then G & G. Next....sinuous Frankish contraptions.
It will only be a matter of time afore you're carving one o' dem scuttle-leg thangs..... and soon enough you'll be researching the differences between the Newport, Philly, London, and Boston, etc., styles of B & C feet, knee carvings, the various permutations of Triffid-toed legs (excuse me, "limbs"), QA pad feet, and other highly-sinister 18. Century shapes.
Then, the next thing we all know, the icon O'Clastic Lataxe will be carving Rococo Objets d'Art with all them gaudy curlicues, Acanthus leaves, wing-ed trumpet-blowing Cherubs, and other such-like appurtenances.
Heh, heh, heh!!!!
Yours in 18th Century High-Style Baroque feets and limbs......
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Edited 6/20/2007 5:28 pm by pzgren
James,
I take the Indian Rider's advice. I meant to say "I-son-elastic".
As to the C18, it is gone and past, as have those times when men wore powdered wigs and believed the earth was flat. Tastes have changed, unless you are an atavistic throwback in a green smock.
You see, I am a member of our British National Trust, so visit many old hooses containing the ancient furniture of yesteryear. Do you know, it is mostly ponderous, ugly, badly-made and would fall to bits if it weren't looked after all day long by caring lady-folk. There might be something in the drawers and cupboards but they don't open now.
Jeremy Bentham had the right idea (I don't mean the business about getting stuffed and mounted). In a word: "utility". What are them curlicues for again? And the purpose of a folderoy is to.....?
Lataxe, a modern peson (not post modern, mind).
Edited 6/20/2007 6:20 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe you old rabble-rouser, you,
Curlicues and folderol is it?
To quote your countryman, Mr Keats,
"When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st
'Truth is beauty, beauty truth,--that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.' "
Granted he was a man at least partly of the 18th century, and true it is that his writing is embellished itself, with verbal curlicues, and fol-de-rol. Even so, why is it, do you suppose, that he was inspired to write his ode to a Grecian urn, a thing decorated with curlicue'd handles, and dancing figures, and not a nice, utilitarian pi$$pot?
Could it be that for some, an object may have an attraction for the necessity of its being studied to be appreciated, and not for its utility alone? That an object may be enjoyed more each time it is admired, its carving's rhythm revealing itself to the eye the way a symphony's point and counterpoint unfold with each listening. Or do you, kind sir, eschew symphonic performance, and only listen to sea chanteys (while raising anchor) for musical enjoyment, because they have utility?
While a simple folk tune has no little beauty (to continue the musical analogy), the world would be a poorer place without the rococo music of Bach. Just so, a world only furnished with shaker ladderbacks for us to sit in, and no Chippendale ribband backs, would be a lesser place.
Tis a human urge, to embellish that with which we are surrounded, and has been so from the time we dwelt in caves. And tis folly, good sir, to propose to turn one's back on the beauty of the past, simply because the time of its creation is past and gone. The reason for preserving all those auld hooses and their contents, is not for their ability to turn the weather and store our possesions. A cave, furnished with a hollow log would be the sole property of the Trust, if utility were its raison d'etre.
But you, of course know that, and are only attempting to raise the ire of us, to whom "classic" is not a four letter word.
Ray, an atavistit premodernist, without, alas, a smock of any color
Ray,
I was hoping you would dance about a bit after that poke. :-)
Tradition (meaning the slow but changing adaptations to the Real via concrete practice and experience, rather than via novel and untested theory) sits well with me. I am no Rationalist and understand that we can like and adopt a familiar thing or practice simply because it is familiar. (See the conservative philosopher Michael Oakeshott's essays on The Politics of Rationalism).
But I draw the line at going Classical - ie taking as read the idea that the world is fixed and unchanging - or that certain values, including those values that define various styles of one kind and another, are universal truths (or beauties). There may be long-lived vaues (and associated styles) that stand the test of time. But all things must pass....
For me, the stuff of previous centuries is largely superseded. (I don't mean irrelevant as they are part of the historical base of Now - but things of Now are perched on top of the things of Then, not vice versa). Of course, many choose to retain a taste for more of past things than I do and their choice is just as good as mine - for the most part. It is just personal taste - for the most part. However.....
Some of those long-lived values now manifest in better (I mean evolved, more adapted) ways than heretofor. Should we reject them merely because they are new?
* Plywood is a better substrate for veneer than solid wood. You can have fantastically veneered furniture now that will last longer (a traditional value).
* A large bandsaw reduces the cost of (and reduces the waste) of creating planks, compared to the economics of the saw pit and its human dogs. Good economy will always be in fashion.
One may retain the older ways and styles, no matter what; but should this mean a rejection of the new, especially if the new actually supports and improves an important thread of the tradition?
For me a tradition is only meaningful if it adapts to the changing environment (mostly a cutural/information environment, for us humans). To live in Now some things from Then must be allowed to fall away, to make room for the new and the associated adaptations. Of course, we all may make different choices about what is retained and what newly adopted.....
And we may retain historical stuff because history is important (where we come from).
How would you like to live in an C18 house, as it was in C18 (as opposed to the modernised habitats such abodes have become today)? I never liked them privies, meself. Would you be OK if I took away your Indian and left you a horse? Those stables and feed are expensive, not to mention the vet. Also, the horse is a bit slow on the turnpike, these days. :-)
Lataxe, a modern conservative, but not woodworking by candle light (not that romantic).
Edited 6/21/2007 3:24 pm ET by Lataxe
The curlicues you talk about weren't superfluous. They had very specific meanings and purposes in the artistic/esthetic message of the original builders.I think your evolved styles (shaker specifically) are like someone happening upon a car for the first time and stripping off the confusing parts until they have a bicycle (which they understand).I think bicycles are fine, but I think one needs to know what an alternator is and how one works before one decides its uneccessary.Adam
Adam,
Must I not only buy and wear a periwig but also disassemble the tresses and ringlets in order to make one myself, so I will have total intimacy with periwigs and the philosophy behind their design? Well, I suppose so, were a periwig to take my fancy.
However, I have come to like the utility of a short back and sides. :-)
Seriously, I have no truck with anyone who wants to make any style of furniture they like, inclusive of motifs that reprsent strange old ways of thinking that might otherwise be forgotten in favour of philosopies that better match today's reality rather than yesteryear's odd ways.
I suppose I do want to scratch and growl if that same person doesn't want to reciprocate my generous tolerance but rather belittles not just my liking for the simplicity of linearity and utility but also the methods or tools I use to construct pieces having those attributes.
One day I may may learn to carve and find myself constructing a folderoy or two; and with a will, the carving tool/skill having somehow infected my furniture-taste memes, as Mr Pine suggests they might. (His "tastes change" message). Correspondingly, I hope that one day you will be inspired by a more adventurous albeit less "pure" approach via, say, a Woodrat or a Domino. Mayhap you will use the things to integrate, say, Shaker and Mackitosh into the most beautiful Arts & Crafts synthesis the world has ever seen?
You might even find a better way to make folderoys.
Lataxe, a cyclist.
Sorry Squire, I feel moved to chime in here, where you say "One day I may may learn to carve and find myself constructing a folderoy or two", and say that I wish I lived in A merica, so that I could visit Mr Pine and be taught some carving by Him. Also I would give that Indian a rev.
I salute your great flexibility of mind....Philip Marcou
P.S. What is a periwig? And a groke?
Edited 6/22/2007 5:17 am by philip
Philip,
I'm waiting for the offer of free lessons (along with the board & lodging, 1st class airfare, etc.) from Mr Pine and Mr Cherubini. Surely they can't just leave me in my ignorant state? :-)
"Grok" comes from Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" - a novel examining some of the implications that a Jesus-like figure would have for a contemporary society. To grok was to empathise, grasp, understand and similar, in a moment of one-ness with what was grokked. (as I remember - 20 years since I read the novel, at least).
Periwigs are those long, powdered wigs worn by "gentlemen" of yesteryear and which still appear in Britain (cut down and minimalised a bit) amongst the judiciary and other officials of the court. They are representative of a rather old-fashioned and esoteric frame of mind, meant to both bind the court to its self and also to put into a state of awe those of the hoi polloi who must submit themselves to the legal machinations, for one reason or another.
I doubt you'd wear a periwig to a restaurant or to the beach (or anywhere) as you might be thought Rather Strange. Consequently, I have included periwigs amongst that Very Large Subset of things-past that I cannot find the time to learn about in detail, given the Very Long List of more pressing things that need to be learnt quite soon.
In Kendal there is a chap who always dresses as Robin Hood (Hollywood version of the 1950s, as the "reaal" one was not in fact real at all). He is indeed strange in many other ways too.
As to the Indian, I feel it needs to be replaced by a proper modern bicycle, as a lesson to Mr Pine in simplicity of engineering design and the triumph of human strength despite the availability of gas-guzzling modern enjines and the illicit thrills they provide. :-)
Lataxe, sometime conformist.
My dear friend,
Let's split the difference; you provide the round trip tickets (plural, for I cannot leave the ladywife behind) and the room and board, and I'll provide the lessons.
2dly what's up with the periwigs? Must one embrace all the appurtenances of the C18 to enjoy some bits of its furniture? No doubt you are lighting your way to that Stickley (or was it Greene &Greene?) desk with a Tiffany shaded gas jet?
3dly, the Indian was a replacement for the bicycle, when it was developed by Mrs Hedstrom and Hendee, back in 1901 (around the time your beloved Artsand Crafts movement was in full swing), so you see I am a sort of retarded- make that retrograde-Modernist, I told you we are more similar than not.
Ray
You're kinda loosing me with your analogies. So you're saying if you are interested in wearing wigs, do you need to know about periwigs? Well of course you do. Are you one of those people who doesn't know how cars work? "I'll take this one. Its blue. I like blue." You don't strike me as that type.You're not going to get me to nod approvingly at you or any one else who wants to turn his or her back on education. The past is directly relevant and you need to know about it. The more you know, the more enjoyable your work will be and the more successful you will be with your work. Its just like anything else. Why dismiss something out of hand? I don't care for cubism, but I learned about it and understand it and that knowledge has helped me.Adam
Adam,
I am sorry that I have lost you. Perhaps a bit of personal history will clarify my attitude in respect of these older thangs...
At school they gave us what used to be known as a classical education- greek and latin were required subjects, along with the physics and maths. Many carped and moaned about having to learn the old languages, at the time. Happily, Professor Skillin was a monster and made sure we absorbed the texts and grammar, to avoid pain in our nether regions.
I say "happily" because those ancient texts - the conceptual frameworks of greek and latin - did provide a very good basis for thinking rather more clearly about other stuff than might have been the case if all we had learnt of history was the history of the British Empire (a sad mistake, even then - in the 60s - being perpetrated in British school history departments, where the terrible parochialism was in stark counterpoint to the grand perspectives of The Classics).
Nevetheless, I rarely read latin, and even less greek, after that initial education. No doubt this makes me the poorer intellectually; but then so would ignorance concerning all the other stuff I learnt in preference, in order to function in the modern world. The Information Technology stuff, for instance, can be grasped fairly well, even without having read the classics - although thinking about the construction of programs was certainly helped by the sort of greek-engendered formal logic that was first studied at school during those early classics lessons......
Like it or not, today IT knowledge is a lot more useful than greek and latin (for example).
The point is, I think, that of course the past and its doings are not irrelevant; but we generally must leave behind 99% and try to retain the stuff (within this or that tradition) that is of use to us today, in this world, well along time's arrow from Then. We cannot stay in "Then". "Then" is not better than "Now" because "Then" no longer exists. Only the reduced and refined essences of "Then" are available (and needful) now.
So, I feel unable and unwilling to learn about everything, from the dawn of culture. The latin and greek I learnt were useful but even then, not really necessary for a succesful life in a modern world, although I am grateful to have had the understanding they gave. I feel the same (for now, at least) about old fashioned furniture styles. For me, they are periwigs. You may wear a periwig if you wish. One day I might suddenly realise that you cut a handsome figure in it and I will want one too.
*****
Anyway, when are you getting that attitude-changing Domino? :-)
Lataxe, only a part time student (too busy living).
Edited 6/23/2007 11:22 am ET by Lataxe
"The point is, I think, that of course the past and its doings are not irrelevant; but we generally must leave behind 99% and try to retain the stuff (within this or that tradition) that is of use to us today, in this world, well along time's arrow from Then. We cannot stay in "Then". "Then" is not better than "Now" because "Then" no longer exists. Only the reduced and refined essences of "Then" are available (and needful) now."Lataxe:Implicit in your argument is that the arc of time's arrow follows an upward path without interruption or other let or hindrance. But what if there was a major perturbation to our society and its technological underpinnings? Human progress has taken place during an extraordinary period of geological quietude. We are beginning to understand that we live on a very violent planet given to massive upheavals both from within and without. For example the entire Yellowstone Park is now known to be a massive volcano that has erupted regularly every 600,000 years; the last one being some 640,000 years ago. Sooner or later something cataclysmic will happen (hopefully not in my lifetime) but those who survive will find the "old" pre-technical skills somewhat useful.I am all for not dwelling in the past but it is foolhardy to rely solely on modern technology. Knowing how to fashion a shelter with hand tools could come in quite handy, but perl programing - not so much. Preserving old skills is something, we as a species, should engage in. I wonder at the bushmen of the Kalahari. Their understanding and knowledge of that environment and how to live in it is magnificent.I too took latin (I won the latin prize) though not under such a martinet as your prof. History was taught by a crusty old man with a game leg. If you couldn't recite your dates, he would wrap his index finger round your hair and bash your head against the desk. My times have changed; now he would be arrested!
H,
If Yellowstone blows, no one need worry too much about which survival aids to get out of the shed. There will be no shed or anyone to go there. :-) In a million years or so, insect-man will have evolved. Their pincers are unlikely to fit around even a Marcou plane, however.
Your argument makes good sense but we might disagree about what skills are the better to have in the event of one of them global setbacks you mention.
Choice 1 - its a moot point as there is no global setback in our lifetime and we would have been better learning how to produce exciting films or sing sweetly (for that leisure society that will surely come when the mad puritans have put aside that work ethic nonsense).
Choice 2 - assume skill with a stone axe and similar will be a Good Thing, as these tools will be the limit of our reduced technology after any significant disaster (any stoneaxe makers/users out there)?
Choice 3 - learn how to adapt rapidly to very fast change (as most have to in this modern society anyway) so that whatever happens we are at least adaptable and will not fail just because our Roubaix bench has burnt and the molding planes with it.
**
Somehow I feel that being able to fashion a frou-frou (as they are henceforth known) with a keen chisel may not necessarily be a saving grace in the event of disaster. Mind, I have been doing green woodwork and can build a shelter with my axe (assuming it doesn't melt in the nuclear blast).
Lataxe, an optomist (consider the alternative).
Lataxe,
Perhaps you and I are not so far apart in our values after all, only in our preferences.
I do live in a C19 home, but with some (not all the latest) modern conveniences-plumbing, heat, for example, but not a hot tub, nor a wide screen plasma hd tv. Similarly, my ride is a 1938 model, the rice-burning crotch rockets zooming around hold no appeal for me.
I'm not sure I can embrace the idea that nothing is immutable and unchanging. Classic, as I read it, is that which has stood the test of time, and not been found wanting. Shakespeare's language may be archaic, but his ideas are not, and a performance of his work is still moving to an audience, and the problems his protagonists wrestle with I believe are relevant to us today, the lessons learned have value for those of us willing to open our minds to them.
Similarly, the carving on the best rococo furniture may seem overly fussy and superfluous to the unengaged eye. Yet the "line of beauty" is there (over and over and...), the underlying forms are well constructed, and carefully proportioned. There are lessons there for us as well, unless we choose to ignore them.
It's been argued, and rightly so, that much ornament has been applied to cover design shortcomings, ("gilding a botch" is the phrase I read somewhere). Maybe that is type of thing that has given you such a case of heartburn when it comes to the ill constructed, bandy legged pieces you decry. I'm certainly not saying that all that has been built (or done) in the past need be admired. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Just as honorable actions of our forefathers are worth emulating, so is the honest craftsmanship and design of the past.
Ray
Ray,
If there are tools that change our project lists there are surely also seminal works of art (you mention Shakespeare) that will provide a receptive mind with a means to improve (for want of a better word). Of course, I confess that roccoco and many other aesthetics of the past are presently outside my ken. I can only take your word that a more intimate understanding of their art would improve me. I hope I am not so stupid as to think that what I don't know about is worthless.
Hopefully, this a general rule applicable even to gung-ho handtool fetishists, who might reconsider their mental allergy to electik motors.
I tease concerning the curlikews simply because I can. If curlicued furniture is still wanted by a significant number of people after all this time then someone ought to make it, especially if they enjoy both the process and the style. But I like to examine motives....
Perhaps Charlie B envisions us all becoming ever-more educated and skilled as we are seduced by new tools into new ways. Certainly this is how I am seduced by my obsessions - via the objects involved - as often as not. I have yet to discover if familiarity and a base skill with carving chisels would cause me to suddenly acquire a taste for those furniture styles of yesteryear that are so dependent on the carving tradition.
If it is tool-acquisition (along with the pleasure of becoming skilled with them) that causes the liking for what they typically produce, then we are in the confusing land of mixed motives. Do I find rectilinear furniture attractive because my TS cuts straight? Does Shaker appeal much to those who enjoy carving?
In any case, the preservation of the valuable essence of a tradition, in literature, furniture or anything else, surely should not result in the ossification of those who adhere to that tradition. I suppose my inclination to giggle in public at folderoyed furniture is something of a reaction to those who equate "traditional" with "unchanging"; "past"; "not-modern".
Periwig making may be a fine art but what have periwigs to offer us in a changed culture? I am not presupposing the answer is the same for all past things - but how much is a love of periwigs caused by a love of periwig making and the associated tools/skills? Do you have to be a periwigger to find beauty in a periwig?
If I were a periwgger I would still not turn my nose up at an electric ringlet twirler, even if the C18 hand-twirler was a fine tool. So why cannot a roccoco furniture maker turn to a Domino? (Perhaps you have already bought one)?
Lataxe
Lataxe, old bean,
Upon reading of your several posts, and a little (very) reflection, I have arrived at a Theory. I have little doubt that my fondness for and appreciation of the Antique, is due in large part to my upbringing, and to my early education on furniture style in the first shop in which I worked. Could be that your aversion to same, has similar origins? Are we both, in other words, captives of our memes (I think that's what you call them) or paradigms?
I am willing to consider that, had my first shop experience been one that specialized in the Arts and Crafts style, my appreciation of the rococo might very well be less fulsome. Are you man enough to admit the same might be true (only vice-versa) for you? Or are Adam and I going to have to come over there, and cram some acanthus leaves down your Woodrat?
Ray
Ray,
Surely you will be travelling to Britain on the Indian and have no need of an aeroplane or its expensive ticket? Don't forget to pack your many chisels and moulding planes in the panniers. Board and lodging of the most excellent quality will be provided, gratis, by the ladywife. She lives to spoil the likes of you, me and other stray cats. You must perch your ladywife on the pillion, however, as otherwise you might try to make off with mine, she is so good.
I would come over there on the bicycle but it would take too long and also require inordinate quantities of viands (bike fuel). Also, how would I manage to bring all the frou frou back that you show me how to make? You can only get so much in a bumbag you know, before it starts to dig into the gluteus maximii (thrusting muscle).
I have often wondered if the Woodrat can be made to produce carvings. I suspect there will be an ingenious American 'rat user somewhere who turns out frou-frou of many kinds at at alarming rate, using only an upcut spiral bit and a Very Complex jig.
I WAS frightened by scuttle-furniture when young, as you know. Impressionable and sensitive children should not be allowed to roam alone around those fusty old houses we have over here, as it stimulates the imagination, especially if you have just been to see Disney's Sorcerer's Apprentice. Still, as I have to get over it sometime, why not now (as the excellent saying goes)?
The ladywife and I are looking for a carving course here in Blighty, just in case the Indian breaks down irrevocably when you get Atlantic in the carburettor. I suppose they will make us carve an acanthus leaf.....or even a bollock grasped by the talon of some mythical beast. (I wonder if that's where the phrase, "I dropped a bollock" comes from - but I digress). Carving is one of them things that even I, a self-teach addict, might better learn (well, quicker learn) at the hands of A Master.
Lataxe
PS I think Adam will be too busy Showing The Light of The Golden Mean to Larry, to bother with the likes of me.
Lataxe, old top,
Your mention of your ladywife's endearing qualities, "she is so good," reminded me of a little bit of verse I learnt long ago.
"There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
And, when she was good,
She was very, very, good.
But when she was bad,
She was better!"
I rather doubt the Indian will make it 'cross the Atlantic on its own motive power. You are correct in that it does not take kindly to water, salt or otherwise, in its carby. Doubtless our friend Richard of the black dagger, can put you aright in your quest for carving tutelage nearer to your home than the US of A.
Cheers,
Ray
Since curves and sweeps are disturbing, and antiquesque, is there a tool that swept your woodworking designs towards the more modern - perhaps towards the Ikea School and The 32mm System - neither of which lend themselves to the use of handtools, excluding of course, the sometimes valued screw drivers - philips or torx of course - not the neander version for the devil of the hardware world -slot head screws.Since the embelleshment of wooden furniture - the extreme of which is found in the baroque and roccoco styles - serves no practical function, and in fact acts as a collector or dust and grime (aka "patina" - much prized by antique collectors), difficult if not impossible to remove, how would you design pieces to minimize these detrimental elements of past and current furniture designs? Are there any specific tools required to execute said designs - and - if so - what are they and what would / do they do?Which cause me to think about a tool that could change my design ideas - the vacuum pump and vacuum bag(s). Fine veneers are readily available, stretching particularly nice pieces of wood out 10 times or more and allowing for book matching. And veneers allow you to orient the visible grain on a piece in a way that would be totally impractical with solid wood. Until the advent of vacuum bag veneering, most of the world of veneered pieces was beyond the reach of the Average Joe. Would having, and knowing how to use a vacuum bagging veneer system change what you design and build?A recently sat through an hour and a half long presentation on marquetry. It avoids much of the actual three dimensional problems with carvings - ala baroque and roccoco styles - while adding the illusion of 3D to parts of a piece. As laser "engravers" become more affordable (if $10,000 for a low end model with somewhat limited capacity and ability) and CAD compatible, they can free a woodworker from the eyestraining, hand cramping, nere wrecking grunt work of cutting out the parts for a marquetry design. Would having such a tool expand your design and construction/ fabircation range - in a useful way?As a side issue - on how well some of the highly valued works and designs of folks like Chippendale hold up in the real world over time - and how much effort must be expended to hold them up - and keep all the parts together and functional - should one design with central heat and air conditioning in mind? charlie bI raise the question because I grew up in the tropics - in a place that no longer exists - the Panama Canal Zone - now "just" Panama. Until the early the late 1950s or early 1960s, The Canal Zone had 15 cycle electricity. Given the temperature range between the two seasons of the tropics - rainy season and dry season, there was no need for central heating, or heating of any king. But until The Canal Zone converted to 60 cycle, air conditioning - other than with large fans- was not available. When AC did become available, much of the furniture that had remained totally functional for 20 to 50 or more years, began to tear themselves apart in a low moisture content environment. Rosewood and mahogany pieces with carved cedar panels cracked and split - joints opening, doors warping, drawers sticking.
charlie b asks, "Since curves and sweeps are disturbing, and antiquesque,...Since the embelleshment of wooden furniture ... serves no practical function...how would you design pieces to minimize these detrimental elements of past and current furniture designs?"
Well I guess if I'd been tainted and swayed by your wide brush, I'd buy a bunch of milk crates for furniture. I wasn't and I won't.
Curves, sweeps and bends can be structural. They can add needed strength. If you can't see this in furniture, go look at your car body.
Design, to me, is manipulation of a number of visual and structural factors. Scale, proportion, visual weight, light/shadow, texture, rhythm are just some of the qualities you can manipulate with you call "disturbing" and nonfunctional "embellishments." I can make a small delicate feature strong and structural, a heavy piece or feature look light, a big feature look small, or even draw the eye to a particular portion of a piece. All those embellishments might just serve a design purpose. I suspect a good book on design would help you see the possibilities.
We've gotten off the original topic - Tools That Change Your Projects List (tools that either make it possible, or easy enough that you'll use, joinery that you hadn't tried because it was to difficult to make - or took more time than it was worth.Now if a foray into design seems like a good idea, your post to this thread is a great starting off point.My comment - which you quoted - was a tongue in cheek response to another participant to this thread who saw much of the froo froo and unnecessary decorative elements of "classic pieces" as unneeded, the "classic designs" ala Chippendale etc. as actually being of less than ideal joinery, perhaps somewhat compensated for by added visual elements - the existing antiques so highly valued, now falling apart or non functional (eg drawers and doors that won't open - or won't close).Personally, I like the minimalist Chinese pieces with almost everything pared down to what's needed to accomplish the task - with a margin of safety of 2 or 3, instead of 10 or 20, maybe even 30 for much of the A&C and kins pieces - for that matter, most "western furniture - of any period. I particularly like the way they avoid butt joints - almost at all cost. Miter joints everywhere - creating an pleasing flow of the grain and figure of the wood- unlike the 90 degree rail and stile butt joint, or even the cope and stick joint.I guess if you have an emperor as a patron / customer, you can spend the time to refine a design idea to the Nth degree, then spend even more time figuring out how to join the parts, and even more time actually cutting and assembling them.Design is an interesting subject - with so many little tricks to fool the viewer into seeing what you want them to see rather than what's actually there. Or to prevent the viewer from seeing things you don't want them to see - there are other "techniques".Want to break up a big bulky structurally necessary component which appears smaller and more delicate than it actually is? Visually bust it up into what appear to be smaller, delicate parts -like applied molding, rounding edges to blur them and make them seem narrower than they in fact are, cut a bead on either side of a wide element to visually narrow it down, . . .charlie b
¡Señor!
<<What are them curlicues for again? And the purpose of a folderoy is to.....?>>
Why, they'd be for non-Benthamian decoration!! Just for providing the pure pleasure of eyeing often excessive and superfluous titivation on a delicately and artfully crafted piece.
Utility? Yeah, sure, that's important, but so is beauty (however one defines it); even better, IMO, is utility combined with beauty.....
Regardless, variety in furniture (and other) tastes is what makes the world a more interesting place....
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<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
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"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
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