Replies

1. 
   ChuckBuhler | Apr 09, 2002 07:21pm | #1

   I understand your question/comment.  I have thought the same way when attempting to decide on purchases.  I am an amateur (been woodworking for about 25 years) and don’t feel that I can justify the price of heavy iron commercial equipment.  For my use, my old  Delta/Rockwell contractors saw with the Xacta fence will probably outlive me, and is  more accurate than my skills allow.  It would be fun to use a larger, faster, heavier, more expensive saw setup, but I don’t think that I really need it, nor would it help me do that much better at my hobby.

    

   When I decide to purchase something for the shop, I like to read reviews, get recommendations from other hobbyists and from some of the pros.  Reviews are often a good place to get specifications on a lot of choices all in one place.  Recommendations from individuals are opinions, and I take them as such.  I really wish that I had been able to test-fly some of the power tools I have before I bought them.  That would have changed my decision more than once. 

    

   As far as quality is concerned, I try to buy upper middle quality, but have some tools that most would consider absolute junk.  They seem to work for me, and I am very used to using them.  I would not point a beginner towards the cheap low end, as I have bought and tossed a lot of cheap junk.  I don’t know that I would push a beginner towards the biggest, fastest, heaviest equipment either.  When I started, I was given some decent hand tools, and filled in the gaps with what I could afford.  When I knew what I was looking at, I usually bought fairly good tools, but some of the stuff I bought was absolute junk. 

    

   If I was giving a recommendation to someone right now, it would be buy better quality, and only as you really need something.  Learn the individual tools, and if you see room for improvement, replace them with higher quality (within reason). 

    

2. 
   tbarnatt | Apr 09, 2002 07:22pm | #2

   Very interesting question Steve. I've been a carpenter and cabinetmaker for over 25 yrs. When i first started branching out on my own and buying tools i bought what my boss used, thinking of course he knows what he's doing and he did. As i got older and better at my craft i started buying more expensive stuff, believing , as i still do to some degree, that you get what you pay for. More than likely the more it costs the better it is, although that's not always the case. I'm in the process now of setting up my shop in our garage. I'm going to have to buy a few big tools, jointer, table saw. I've read all the debates over this kind and that and after awhile ,if your not careful you end up not wanting to buy any brand, it can be very frustrating. You can spend the rest of your life listening to everyone else, but sooner or later you have to do what you feel is best and then live with it. I'm at the point now where i go mainly by what the tool has to offer, H.P, amps, RPM's, all that, knowing what i want it to do for me. I've given up recommending brands to others, instead i tell them what i use and why, it's good points and bad. I kind of relate all this to automobiles. Some people will only buy a Ford or Chevy and so on. I tend to agree with a mechanic friend, they are all good vehicles when they are running well and they're all a piece of junk when they don't run well. We all know that the $30.000 BMW will probably outlast the Ford Escort, but to the guy who can only afford the Escort, that's his BMW!It's all pretty much a matter of opinion, although i will say sometimes it's good to know that a certain model of a certain brand isn't up to snuff. It doesn't mean though that the brand is no good.

   Self confidence has alot to do with this subject also. If your a beginner, then you may tend to rely on others opinions more, i did. But like i said, as you become more skilled you tend to develop your own likes and dislikes.  Also, it's surprising how you can get used to something that you initially didn't like, because of necessity. Now the necessity quite often is $$$!! I have cheap tools that i have used for years, that i bought when i was broke, but they still do the job. Like you said, some oldtimers use real ancient looking stuff yet build beautiful things. Sometimes i think today we get too caught up in technology, always trying to find a faster way to do things.

   There is nothing wrong with reviews, test etc. just don't let them get the best of you. You'll drive yourself crazy if read too many of them. In a nut shell, if your looking to buy and want opinions, ask 3 or 4 other people (that work pretty much at the level you do) what they use and why, then buy what ever one fits your level of need and fits your budget. Be careful of asking people that work for professional woodworkers, most of the time their equipment is much more than the average woodworker really needs. Well that's my 2 cents worth, hope it helps someone!   Tom

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 09, 2002 07:56pm | #3

   Two great unbiased responses! This is exactly what I had hoped this thread would produce. Keep em' comming. Perhaps after a sufficent group of opinions has been collected we'll be able to compile them, review the results, come to an agreement and then get it posted in a permanent how to make tool buying decisions folder.Steve - in Northern California

3. 
   rody | Apr 09, 2002 08:17pm | #4

   There has been a lot of discussion over buying a high quality (expensive) tool. My opinion is slightly different. I am an amateur and have gotten into some furniture, shelf, stands, and chest making for family. My skills have gotten better, still terrible but improving, I have tried to get good tools but on occasions have got a cheap imported tool to see if it was my cup of tea. A few I have found I had little need for, and some I found to be very useful and I then went a got a more expensive longer lasting replacement. I guess my point is that a dirt cheap tool the first time gives an inexpensive tryout for a tool that may or may not get used more than one or two times. If I find I use it for a lot of projects, I start looking for the real deal. If I don't, I haven't thrown a grand to sit in the corner and act as an expensive board holder. I agree with the previous discussions but wanted to throw in my .02 since I hadn't heard this perspective mentioned.

   Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
4. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 09, 2002 09:21pm | #5

   Steve,

   I guess since my name was mentioned, I should at least put in my two cents worth...

   Firstly, as I have often stated, tools and in particular, hand tools, are pretty "personal" in nature, at least in terms of what criteria was used in choosing one brand or type over another.  Ultimately, I have always felt that it is the person behind the tool and not the tool itself that determines "quality".  Very rarely will I make an actual brand recommendation and I always try to qualify those recommendations as objectively as I can.  The exception would be when it comes to router bits {and maybe handplanes ;-)}.  What works for me may not work for others.

   In regard to magazine reviews, I use these primariliy as a ready source of specifications or to get a general idea of the tool's capabilities.  I've found some magaizines to be more "accurate" than others but, I don't rely on them to base a decision on. 

   The factors that I use to make a decision depends on the actual tool itself, it's intended use, and how much use I anticipate that it will see.  A corded hand drill, will see far less use for less extended periods of time than say my drill press, as just one example.  Over the years, I have also learned what manufacturers I can rely on and to a certain degree am "loyal" to them.

   Table saws would probably be the best example to illustrate what I am trying to say.  There are basically three kinds; bench, contractor, and cabinet.  Actual table saw "technology" has changed very little in the last 50 or so years.  Other than very minor differences in "features", each particular class of saw will function as designed with no difference from brand to brand, given that they are in proper alignment.  The biggest differences we see today are in the fences and quality of castings.  One's choice should first be to determine the class of saw that is best suited for his or hers needs, then make the purchase based on the highest "quality" that is affordable.

   "Quality" really boils down to the tolorances and specifications that a manufacturerer uses for their equipment.  The demands placed on any given piece of equipment by the professional are greater than those of the home hobbyist, generally speaking.  The so called "commercial" or "industrial" grade equipment are going to be built to tighter tolorances and different specs than equipment that is marketed to the general public.  A guy that does occassional weekend projects doesn't "need" industrial grade tools to get superb results. 

   I've also learned that some manufacturers are stronger in one area of their product line than in other areas.  Grizzly would be a prime example of this.  While their cabinet saws are an outstanding value, they are "weak" in some of their thicknesser, jointer, and shaper offerings.

   In the realm of hand tools, both corded and human powered, my main requisite in making a decision to buy it is how it "fits" in my hand, "quality" is secondary.  Using routers as an example; Bosch, DeWalt, Makita, and Porter Cable are all outstanding tools.  Properly cared for they will last a lifetime or two, regardless of the "status" of the person using it.  In my view, it comes down to how it fits and "feels" in one's hand.

   Any who, we all have pretty strong opinions about the tools we use and that is precisely what they are; opinions.  We can offer better advice on tooling by having more information from the questioner as to what the tool is going to be used for, what price range is in the budget, and the skill level one has, IMHO.  Recommending that the first router purchase be a 3 1/4 hp is not sound advice.

   That's my two cents....

   Dano

   "Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
1. 
   sschefer | Apr 09, 2002 09:56pm | #6

   Dano, gottcha.... LOL.. Couldn't let this important post go by without your valuable input. See it pays to engineer in an insurance policy or two. Thanks for the, once again, right on the money, response.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   fdampier | Apr 10, 2002 06:18am | #7

   But...

     What about budget?  In a perfect world where money grows on the tree out back in large denominations and abundantly I know what I'd buy.  heck I'd be dangerous, just ask SWMBO.

     But since some of us "need" too much for the budget at hand where do we make that choice?    I mean I'm not sold totally on cheap imports or expensive American products  (I've got both)  I could buy brand $X but that would take my budget for the...... as well.

        Should we do without rather than accept less than perfection?  Is cost a consideration?   How do you anticipate your real future needs?  Will you use that shaper enough to justify it's purchase? 

     I know I read what I can, ask opinions and sometimes just go for it.  Gut feelling sorta thing (sometimes I need to take a pepto  bismo and sometimes it's real sweet)

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 10, 2002 06:23am | #8

   Frenchy, I was just gonna send you a note about this thread and low and behold you show up here with another excellent response. Budget.. The almighty and evil thing that inflicts fear in all man kind. Putting a man on a tool budget is like cutting off his hands. But as you say, it is a necessity of life for most of us and a major determining factor in our purchasing decisions. It will be interesting to hear how others handle this problem. Thanks for the post.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   Merryhiker | Apr 11, 2002 03:44pm | #9

   I'm a longtime lurker but thought I would chime in. I am an occasional woodworker.  I tried to buy 'decent' tools. By that I mean, I'm convinced that cheap tools are not a bargain when you want to work with them regularly, you'll get poor results. However, I can't always buy the best tools. I am currently in a long-term upgrade cycle.  A year ago, I bought a new sliding compound miter saw (Dewalt) because I was convinced that it would make installing some crown moulding a whole lot easier. It was part Christmas present. This year, I bought a new 14" bandsaw to replace a small craftsman that just didn't perform well.   Recently, I'm looking at a jointer and/or tablesaw. The jointer will be an upgrade from a tabletop Craftsman that just doesn't stay square and will certainly not handle a long board. The tablesaw will be an upgrade to an old (and faithful Grizzly) that has a very poor fence that keeps needing adjustment and an underpowered motor for the types of things that I'm getting into

         My other problem is that I am convinced that I am not getting the full use out of the tools that I have. While the tools will make a number of things easier, it still takes skill and experience to put those tools to work.  I've found the number of hours that I have to put into woodworking makes it hard to keep skills sharp and to grow.

2. 
   forestgirl | Apr 12, 2002 07:14am | #10

   Great thread, Steve!  I have 1 or 2 cents worth to throw in -- so far there's little posted here I would disagree with, and the posts are quite well stated, so no need to reiterate.

   One factor I consider when considering a high-end tool vs. a mid- or lower-range tool is how much will I use it.  I don't mind if my bandsaw is a little fussy to set up, if I use it for only 10% or 15% of my work and the work is relatively simple stuff. 

   A factor I haven't seen mentioned here yet is customer service.  If a given manufacturer has a consistent reputation for poor customer service, and I am about to drop some serious money on a tool (e.g., a couple grand or more on a tablesaw -- don't I wish!) no matter what the specs are on the saw, I'm not going to go to that manufacturer for it.  On the other hand, if many people have commented on how superb and consistent CS has been from a different manufacturer, they will rise in the rankings pretty quickly if their machine is of equal quality.

   I lean these days toward buying from a local machinery dealer whenever possible, because I want him to stay in business and I want a person to talk to face-to-face if I have questions.  Fortunately, we have a good dealer in the general area who carries Jet, Powermatic and some Shop Fox stuff and his prices are very competitive.  I certainly don't mind paying a few more bucks over internet prices to support him and have a buddy to go to when something comes up.  But then, I'm a newbie, so support systems are a priority :-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 12, 2002 08:44am | #11

   Hi ya f_g, just got back from guys night at the pub... I was a little p.o.'d when I found out it was my turn as the DD, but what the heck, we still had fun.

   Now here is my rebutal.. 1. I'm in the middle of making fire wood (my most famous product) and I realize that it wont fit in the fireplace unless I cut a small half circle out of each end. I go over to the band saw for a quick cut and start. Then out of no where the blade begins to wander and then it falls off the tire. Arghhh.. 20 minutes later I go into the house and find the Rabbit frozen on the kitchen tile. Cheap can  not only cost you time but it can also stress you out to the point that you loose your paitence and make a mess out of something else.. Humm... lets see, was that Sara Lee that you finally had for dinner that night.

   2. You're right customer service is number one in my book too. Jet convinced me of that.

   3. Local vendors. You betcha.... If you cant trust your neighbors, run the jerks out of town. This is about the only part of buying tools that we still have some control over.

   c-yaSteve - in Northern California

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 12, 2002 09:03am | #12

   Sara helped me get over burning those two dinners.  You would remind me of that, wouldn't you :-) !

   In rebuttal to your rebuttal...fussy blade guides are in a bit different category than a falling-off-the-wheel blade, no?  Hopefully, even my 14" Grizz wouldn't do that to me.  I'm not talking bottom-of-the-pile junk, just setting priorities depending on the amount I use a tool and how complicated the tasks are, mostly in response to the budget concern.

   Cheers!  Have fun with your thread.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   sschefer | Apr 12, 2002 09:08am | #13

   Gotcha.... makes sense now...

   Have a good one.

   Steve - in Northern California

3. 
   alexlisa | Apr 12, 2002 08:17pm | #14

   I'm all for buying from local dealers. Unfortunately, in my area that means Sears or Woodworker's warehouse, where, without exception, I know more about the products I'm buying than the bored comatose salesman. Sometimes I ask questions just for fun, just to hear them wheeze and splutter out innaccurate and misleading answers like: "This Reliant tool is exactly what your looking for! Pay no attention to the horrible fit and finish and shoddy construction!" or "This Craftsman router is the best value around! Pay no attention to the line of poorly made plastic accessories which only work with Sears products!" Arrrggghhh! That said, I've bought a number of tools from WWW. Ijust did my homework, walked in and said "I'll take that one", bypassing the inane sales pitch.

   Let's face it. We are on our own, making educated guesses about what to buy. I have managed to learn enough through trial and error to realize I've bought some useless crap, and some great tools. I'm always trying to balance the cost against how much time I have to actually use any of it. The comment about customer service is right on. I'd rather have a decent tool with great service than a luxury tool with crappy support. In my experience, Jet tools, bought through Tool Crib/Amazon.com is the best combination of price and service. Good luck.

4. 
   sschefer | Apr 12, 2002 09:02pm | #15

   Ahh...we've turned yet another stone I see. What does one do when they don't have reliable local dealers. I am amazed by some of the posts on this forum about people driving 200 miles just to buy a tool. I'm definitely spoiled rotten when it comes to this. Within 10 miles from my front door I have Woodcraft, post tool, Harbor Freight (for emergencies), Home Depot, 3 local tool shops, a custom wood mill, (Mount Storm), Sears, Yard Birds (local HD competitor), and probably a few more that I don't know about yet. I can't even imagine what awaits 100 miles out in the Sacramento or San Francisco Bay areas.

   I have a lot of options when I make a buying decision that many of you don't. I would be curious to know how many others are up against this wall and how you get around not being able to touch before you buy. Do you look for 30 day return policies, etc.. How does it limit the quantity of tools you actually buy.

   I realize this is starting to sound like a marketing ply but I assure you it is not. Most of you know me, I'm a joker but I'm not stupid... Well allright, I'm a joker but I'm honest, (I'm probably too stupid to be anything but honest). Steve - in Northern California

5. 
   forestgirl | Apr 12, 2002 11:38pm | #16

   Steve, you are truly in 7th heaven!  Swimming in options, you are!

   It's something of a miracle that DSC, Inc. (the 'local' dealer of whom I spoke) is in business near here.  "Here" is a 12mi x 3mi island located in the middle of Puget Sound, and our only bridge goes to the Kitsap Peninsula, connecting at Reservation land.  DSC is located between our island and the next (small) town. 

   Somehow, the owner had the vision and the wherewithall ($$$) to open his store, I assume to service the construction trade, which revolves around providing for the bedroom communities that are a ferry ride from downtown Seattle.  It's not a huge store, but a more-than-welcome resource.

   You may have the highest density of tool stores known to mankind!  Next time I'm in N. Cal I'll have to check it out!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   Alan | Apr 13, 2002 03:31am | #17

   And I thought it was only my local Woodworkers Warehouse where the staff didn't know anything.  I once asked a clerk in WW where they kept the plane irons.  He stared back, obviously without a clue.  "Plane blades, blades for handplanes," I said.  Then he knew what I was talking about.  When I took my iron to the register I told him that these things are called "plane IRONS."  To which he said "they're called different things in different parts of the country."  There were about four or five people within earshot and we all burst out laughing.  Oh well.  What ya gonna do?

   Alan

5. 
   bobzig | Apr 13, 2002 06:35am | #18

   Steve,

   One problem with buying cheap tools is, as you become more skilled with what you are trying to accomplish, and run into problems getting the results you are looking for, you might think that your skills..........suck.

   In actuality, part of the problem may be, or more likely is the equipment's fault.

   ASSUMING that your equipment is calibrated and is accurate,  can be a big mistake. I'm learning that with any move of the equipment (blade angle for example), you can't assume that 90 degrees on the indicator, is truely 90 degrees.

   While everyone has to buy within their means and practicality, one must also realize that you will only be as good as the weakest link. And if the weakest link is the equipment you are using, you are chasing your tale until you figure that out.

   BobZig

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 13, 2002 07:47am | #19

   Zig, I just re wrote this post for the 4th time. My feelings are that cheap doesnt mean less if you never expected more. Bottom line, buy what you need and if setting it up for a single cut once a week is all you need then its not cheap, its just what you need.

   Read through this post... you'll see very quickly that this is what folks are talking about. If you use the equipment to make a living and every cut is a nickle in your savings then you can't afford to be adjusting and fiddling everytime you want to do something. But.... if you are just in it for the pleasure of working with wood the fiddling around with equipment makes it all that much more enjoyable.

   Dang, I gotta stop takin drugs. I'm starting to agree with myself...

   Luka.... where the hell are you! I'm doing standup and you're missing the show! I'm getting tired of being the only act in a 24x7 club.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   SCFrankland | Apr 13, 2002 09:58am | #20

   Steve I have been to busy tonight with work to reply to any messages. I have noticed that you always seem to be here no mater what time it is though, good show.

   As for tools I will always buy the best bang for the buck. Top of the line or a close second best that will give me years of trouble free service. Also I like older tools. Ones that have been around and have already stood the test of time.Scott C. Frankland

   Newfoundland Wood Worker

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 13, 2002 08:27pm | #21

   Yep, I seem to spend a lot more time here than I should I guess. My day job as a Computer Consultant/Systems Engineer means that I spend a lot of time on the Internet doing research. I always have the Knots forum up in the background and check it all the time. Wood working is my obsession... My job, well lets just say that I'm getting really tired of it. This is way more fun, and I can do both and still make a decent living.

   Thanks Scott, for taking the time to add your input to the thread. It is really starting to cull out the real reasons that we buy tools. I havent seen so much as one argument, (except me and Forest_Girl but I was just funnin her), just straight forward honest reasons.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 14, 2002 04:31am | #23

   Hi Steve!  Yeah, we really had a knock-down, drag-out, didn't we? LOL.  I'm still trying to figure out the thing with the frozen rabbit!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Armin110 | Apr 14, 2002 05:38am | #24

   Since I'm a full time woodworker the first question I ask "How long will it take for the tool to pay for itself?" If the answer is 2 years or less I go for it. If it's longer I usually talk myself out of it and cobble up something to get by wishing later I had bought it the first time.

3. 
   sschefer | Apr 14, 2002 08:23pm | #26

   Armin, that's interesting. I was talking to a friend of mine and he said about the same thing with a little twist. He said if the quality was good enough to last through the write off period then he had would buy it. He says he replaces his big tools religously as soon as there are zero dollars left on it. He feels that if Uncle Sam is going to help him earn a living, he might as well take advantage of it.Steve - in Northern California

4. 
   sschefer | Apr 14, 2002 08:16pm | #25

   Ahh the Rabbit... Well my friend (single mother) has an 11 year old daughter who's dog just left for better places. Their Vet suggested a rabbit to replace the dog since they are easier to care for. Easter Sunday, Ashley found a rabbit in her Easter basket... Two days later they found out that everyone in the house was alergic to rabbits. So, big ole softy me couldn't take it back to that nasty pet store and now I have a 6 week old bunny running around the house. The cat is not real happy and has let me know by ripping up the newly planted garden.

   On the bright side, I now have a use for my planner shavings and a way to get rid of the nasty doug fir 2x6's that were left on my front lawn. Steve - in Northern California

2. 
   Sancho | Apr 13, 2002 08:43pm | #22

   My method for deciding on a tool purchase is

   1) How much will I use it.

   2) How much easier will it make my life(WW life)

   3) I talk to all the people I know in the business

   4) I talk to the guys at my tool store ( A case for not shopping at the boxes)

   5) How much can I afford to spend or is it worth setting aside bucks to save for it.

   6) Is there anything more pressing that the money is needed for (Braces for the kids ect)   Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

6. 
   PMurrett | Apr 15, 2002 01:16am | #27

   This has been an excellent thread offering sage advice for the veteran & novice; professional & hobbyist; frequent contributors & lurkers (BTW, I put myself in the second groups of all of those choices).

   I am more than a little awed by the quality of the contributions up to this point, but I will nonetheless offer my own perspective.

   First, it is a great question, and one most of us have briefly considered from time to time, but never fully thought out.  A whole lot of what goes into our purchasing decisions and it is very difficult to nail down.  Our process is usually much more abstract than quantitative. And his goes way beyond tools -- the same thing could be said of the “logic” that goes into how we pick the kind of beer we prefer, what cable news channel we watch, or which golf ball we try to keep out of the woods.  One thing is consistent: we usually are loyal – often times illogically so – to our given choices and will defend them against all takers.  If you doubt my word just start a thread and state unequivocally that Dewalt is the best; Jet stinks, or Mary Ann is better than Ginger – and watch the fur fly!

   More often than not, there is a correlation between price & quality.  Oh we all probably have at least one tool in our shop that we were in the right place at the right time.  But that is usually the exception and not the rule.

   I have often quoted my own mother’s advice when she told me when I was young that we couldn’t afford cheap clothing – this meant even more in a family where clothing got passed down to several brothers before then being passed on to relatives.  I have always thought this applies to tools as well and my advice has always been to buy the best you can reasonably afford.  This saves you the frustration of working with inadequate equipment; provides the joy of a well built tool in you hands, and forces you to focus your skills and energy to learning the full range of your tools and yourself.  Another way to sum this up is that you will enjoy/curse this tool long after you have forgotten how much you spent on it.

   And reviews have their place, but they are only part of the process.  I respect what I read but just as it would be a want of time and money to blindly go to only the movies recommended by your local reviewer.  You need to take any review with a grain of salt and be ever vigilante to the reviewer’s agenda (we all have one).

   The tools I have enjoyed most have been the ones I researched doggedly before I finally made the plunge.  Even before I bought it I was convinced it was the best tool for me,  I knew what was a fair price, and I could get on to mastering it.

   PMM