Replies

1. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 10, 2002 05:47pm | #1

   Atta boy, William!

   Great article and thanks for the link.

   Dano

   "Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
1. 
   nigelUsa | Apr 11, 2002 03:36am | #2

   Seems like a waste of toothpaste and varnish!

2. 
   charlesstanford | Apr 11, 2002 03:45am | #3

   I think an executive summary might be in order.  The world is dying to know if Close-Up is better than Crest.  Please, don't make us read the whole article.

1. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 11, 2002 03:54am | #4

   Aw c'mon Charles, it's an interesting read.  Besides, I told Frank that I think you are open minded....;-)

   Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright

1. 
   charlesstanford | Apr 11, 2002 04:39am | #5

   I think Andy did a controlled experiment with toothpaste.  I scanned the article and it appeared that the toothpaste was used along with several other ingredients.  Perhaps the author attributed to the toothpaste attributes that more properly belonged to the other compounds.

   I think Andy's test applied to most of the woodworkers here.  If Dr. Bill uses toothpaste on his violins then more power to him.

   It is highly unlikely to become part of my regimen, again, based on Andy Charron's impressions.

3. 
   charlesstanford | Apr 11, 2002 05:08am | #6

   I just read the whole article and upon exit noticed that Dr. Bill wrote the article himself. 

   I think, Dr. Bill, that you are obsessed with the idea of using toothpaste on your violins.  Perhaps in time it will be recognized as an Epiphany.  When you can produce a list of bona fide, recognized European master violin makers who use it, then do get back to us. 

   I keep wondering why you hang out here - there are precious few, really hardly any at all, instrument makers who use this forum.  There are at least two forums for stringed instrument makers that I know of, and probably lots more.  Why, for God's sake, don't you enlighten your brother instrument makers instead of the ham-fisted wood butchers here? Certainly, you could have a much more meaningful give-and-take with somebody who reads the magazine that published your article and knows the gentlemen that your article refers to. 

   What point are you trying to make?  And why do you insist on making it here? 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/10/2002 10:16:01 PM ET by CHASSTAN

4. 
   WilliamHF | Apr 11, 2002 03:59pm | #7

   In the Toothpaste discussion about a year ago, I attempted to explain that I was in a bit of a tight spot about how I learned about the use of toothpaste as a polishing agent for violin varnish. I named no names of violin makers who used that agent.

   Through a series of chance occurences a few years ago I became acquainted with a bowed string instrument maker who is among the highest rank of American makers. The "maker" told me about  toothpaste as a polishing agent. I had never heard of it. Yes, like most every housewife, I had known that it was used to polish silver, clean up Jewelry and remove some stains from Marble. But since pumice and rottenstone were the traditional polishing agents for instrument makers (and which I had always previously used), I was surprised, amused and astonished to hear about the use of toothpaste as a polishing agent for violin varnish.

   Well about that time, I had finished a violin. A professional maker came to visit me. He suggested that I use toothpaste to polish out the varnish. I trusted the man and that's what we did, i.e., polished the instrument with toothpaste. To my relatively untrained (in evaluating varnishes) eye, it looked every bit as nice as a job done with pumice and rottenstone. And in some ways, it was simpler and a bit less trouble and less expensive. The surface area of a violin is not quite as great as that of an armoire so the amount of toothpaste required is very small indeed.

   A bit of personal history. I got interested in violin making in 1958 when I was in training and I read an article in a Detroit newspaper about a violin maker. At that time I had done very little woodworking of any kind. I joined the Arizona Violin Makers group (and am the longest surviving member of that group, tho' my membership was not continuous). When I got into private practice I laid the violin making aside for 30 years.

   Once I began to earn a little money I got interested in other forms of woodworking, acquired some tools and began to try to make stuff. I built a catamaran and odds and ends of simple furniture.

   I retired in 1990 and returned to both my violin making interest and to woodworking in general along with fishing, telescope making, running, amateur radio, bicycling, reading and gardening.

   I studied "making" with Ed Campbell who teaches both at his home shop in PA and in Tucson. I worked parts of 7 consecutive summers with Karl Roy, (the former head man at the Mittenwald School of Violin Making in Germany). Karl  comes over from Bavaria and teaches students at the violin makers workshop in Durham, NH, each summer.

   I have met quite a few amateur but only a very few professional makers over the years. Never had I heard the suggestion that toothpaste would make a good violin varnish polishing agent. I thought it would be a possible useful addition to the maker's armentarium of "tools" if the toothpaste idea were made more widely known. That's when I submitted the idea to "Knots" and began to do the little experiment reported here in the paragraph which opens this thread. I have not expected to be awarded a Nobel Prize for Invention.

   The professional maker who told me about this special use for toothpaste did not want it known that he was the one who told me about it. He had taught me some things about violin making which I would never have known and I am in his debt. So since he asked me not to mention his name, I will not mention his name. Other than this one man, who got the idea from still another professional maker whom I can't name either, I don't know of any professional makers who use the idea of toothpase as a varnish polishing agent. Now why don't they want their names attached to the idea? The only reply I can give is: many professional bowed string instrument makers operate with some secrecy. For example, members of the American Federation of Violin and Bow makers will not teach anyone the art of making and will not reply to questions which one might submit to them about how to do such and such an operation.

   I would appreciate being given the reference to the other study of toothpaste mentioned above within this thread as a polishing agent. I had not previously heard of that study.

   Since I have been unable to inter-relate the sizes of ordinary sandpaper grit and MicroMesh grits with toothpaste abrasive grit sizes, if anyone out there can provide references on that subject I'd much appreciate the references.

   However, it is my purely SUBJECTIVE belief that toothpaste abrasive sizes are equivalent to the finer grades of MicroMesh. If that is true, then it shouldn't be at all surprising that it works so well as a polishing agent. One way to test my conclusion is to put a tiny bit of pumice on ones tongue and roll it around and then do the same with a toothpaste.

   As to which toothpaste is better for use as a polish, I don't have an answer. The two violin varnish experts, and they really are experts in that department, did not agree on which polishing agents were best. One of the experts chose a sector of the varnished board experiment which was polished with tripoli and rottenstone as the best sector. The second expert chose a sector polished with a toothpaste.

   It is true that toothpastes vary in their abrasive grit sizes. But, IMO, for the purpose reported on here, it really makes very little difference which toothpaste is used.

   To me most of the polished sectors looked about the same. Bright and shiny. Maybe TOO shiny. Expert professional violin makers who make copies of Master instruments often attempt to produce a finish on the varnish which emulates the way an old Master instrument looks today, and that ain't necessarily shiny.

   I dont spend all my woodworking time on violins by any means. Perhaps that answers the question of why I'd report on toothpaste here in "Knots."  The last three things I've made are a King Size bed, which Richard Jones helped me with; the Frid workbench (made it once before over 20 years ago) and am working on Lance Patterson's beautiful music stand now, in Cherry (See Fine Woodworking Magazine, 1987.)

   To the extent that my curiosity and interest in the subject of using Toothpaste as a polish for violin varnish has caused irritation to the readers of "Knots," I offer my apologies. Back at the time of the original discussion here, I figured that quite possibly any number of woodworkers would report that they commonly used toothpaste for small polishing wood varnish jobs.

   Best wishes to all here who make their living or who relieve the stresses of daily life in a woodworking shop.

   William H. Ferguson      Florida.

   I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
1. 
   WilliamHF | Apr 11, 2002 05:47pm | #8

   The following quotation is taken from Andy Charron's post about the use of toothpaste as a varnish polishing agent. Look above for the original post in the General Discussions part of Knots.

   "To set the record straight, I am not an editor and do not work for Taunton. I have written 3 books for them and numerous articles for FW, mostly finishing related. As for the toothpaste, I did test it (though not as extensively as Bill) and found it worked no better or worse than rottenstone or any other very fine rubbing compound. My one complaint was that it left behind a minty smell that took several days to fade away. As for the article on sanding after scraping, that was not me. "

   The undersigned doesn't know Mr. Charron.

   What is a naive woodworker supposed to make of this sentence from Mr. Charron? "As for the toothpaste, I did test it (though not as extensively as Bill) and found IT WORKED NO BETTER OR WORSE THAN ROTTENSTONE OR ANY OTHER VERY FINE RUBBING COMPOUND."

   (WHF: I added the capitalization).

   Best regards to all

   William

    I make something, sometimes twice, each year.

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 11, 2002 07:01pm | #9

   The bottom line is that tooth paste (at least most of them) are nothin more than pre-lubricated abrasives. They also have a few added bonuses like mouth wash, etc added in to keep the dentists happy.

   You can use it to clean your jewelry, polish plastics, clean and polish glass, all sorts of things. If you use rotten stone your pretty close to toothpaste in abrasive qualities.

   Personnally, I like to use it fresh out of the tube. The used stuff grosses me out.

   Steve - in Northern California

2. 
   charlesstanford | Apr 12, 2002 04:08am | #10

   William, again, one does not understand your wish to make a strident point here.  Instrument making is a specialty that is not practiced by that many people on Knots, if any at all other than you.  Nobody doubts your sincerity, really.  However, one does start to wonder why the compulsion to post this toothpaste method here.  It is not particularly cost effective for furniture, it does not do a better job than pumice and rottenstone, and can you imagine the minty smell if one used it all over a large case piece or table?

   Maybe some of the jewelry box and other "smalls" makers here will pick up on your suggestions and recommendations.

   You've posted a link to an article you've written and published, you've also defended your dissertation well.  I'll recommend you to the Board of Regents for a Ph.D. in toothpaste rubout.