Friends,
I noticed that things were getting a bit slow, so I thought I would bring up the topic of using toothpicks for repairing loose joints on chairs.
First, do you recommend the flat or the round toothpicks? Each has advantages.
Secondly, the finish on toothpicks is VERY smooth, so I wonder if it is best to rough up the toothpicks with some 60 grit sandpaper to give them a bit more “bite” in the joint. If you do use the sandpaper, I recommend doing it by hand, because holding the toothpicks against a belt sander is a bit tricky.
I wonder if Lie Nielsen would be up for adding another doweling jig to their line, so that you could make your own toothpicks out of the wood of your choice. There is so little choice in toothpicks at the grocery store.
Now that the mid term elections are over, we can get back to enjoying difficult woodworking issues such as this. The results of the elections are great for the woodworking tool industry. There is little doubt that all business and individual taxes will be abolished so that “trickle down” economics will allow businesses to flourish which will in turn allow the companies to sell so many tools that they will be able to reduce prices to the point where we won’t have to choose between tools — we will be able to buy them all. THE FUTURE LOOKS BRIGHT AHEAD, especially if I can figure out the darn toothpick problem. Nothing is worse than chairs collapsing under your guests at a party.
Mel
Replies
Toothpicks
I have found that the LN small scraper plane, the one that fly rod makers use, is the best for dressing toothpicks if you can determine grain direction, which on the double ended, pointy types, is usually toward the points, but not always. But I get better chair repair results from the toothpicks used to test bread and cakes for doneness after they have been used in an underdone cupcake. I find that the raised grain on these 'picks gives a better bite after insertion in the joint and any part of the 'pick left sticking out can be removed by using a piece of hacksaw blade with fine teeth, the set being beaten out with a small hammer on an anvil to prevent surface scratching. I know that there are those who advocate beating toothpicks lightly to compress them so that the glue will make them re expand but I find that this technique weakens the structural integrity of the shaft and sometimes leads to a failure of the 'pick during insertion. I sure hope this helps. Show us some pictures of your toothpick repair projects. At a later date I will reveal my steel plate toothpick reamer that puts a glue relief groove up the side of a standard #3 toothpick.
Swenson,
Thanks for your suggestions on fettling toothpicks. The LN small scraper plane with the fly rod mod sounds ideal.
Of course this does not solve the problem of optimal placement of the toothpicks into the round mortise. Unless the proper preparation is made, they tend to slip around. Very annoying. So I have made a "TPJ" a "Toothpick Placement Jig" which makes small rounded grooves for the toothpicks to sit in. Anyone can make such a jig in a sloppy manner, but I decided to go FIRST CLASS, so I have made an Infill Jig, for maximum mass and sheer beauty. Since no Infill tools go for less thatn $2000, I will be selling my Infill Toothpick Placement Jig for $3500. Of course, the use of rarer woods will increase the price.
Attached is a photo of one of the chairs that I still need to repair. It is one our kitchen chairs. I put the little rope across it so that no one would sit in it until the repair is made.
Mel
9619 at work
Mel,
I'll bet your teachers (and NASA compatriots) winced when you felt things were a little slow. Always with tongue-in-cheek you keep the pot boiling. Keep up the good work.
Frosty
Frosty,
I remember the nuns in grammar school saying, "An idle mind is the devil's workshop." We certainly don't want an idle minds around here.
Of course, we had a nun in second grade who made us keep our hands on top of the desk at all times. She said that if we put our hands in our laps, we would get dirty thoughts. I remember everyone asking everyone else what a dirty thought was.
At NASA, things never really got dull, but on occasion, after a large task was just completed, some of us would revet to juggling. The idea was to pick three things from someone's desk, and attempt to juggle them. That could get pretty challenging. Try a set of keys, a stapler an an eraser.
I guess that I wasn't the only one who was a bit bored with the offering on Knots this AM. Ray, Swenson and you were nice enough to jump in. I guess it was either this or a Red Bull, and that stuff is really nasty.
Have fun.
Mel
Frosty,
Wow, in just a half day, "toothpicks" got about a dozen posts! Tomorrow it's your turn to stir the pot. Maybe you could start a post on the idea that every tool sold at Harbor Freight is made in the US by senior citizens who belong to the tool union.
Glad you like my kitchen chair. I did a search on "Thrones" and found that photo. it is from Poland. Very nice chair. My actual kitchen chairs are an interesting story. I had finished ten years of university life, and got married, and had an apartment. My brother just graduated from high school and wanted to start a furniture making business. My wife and I gave him his first commission - two dressers and a kitchen table and four chairs. He made the two dressers and the table, but he went to the Hitchcock factory and asked if they would sell him four chairs which they made but did not finish. They had not done that, and it wasn't their practice, but they agreed. So he bought four pine captain's chairs to go with the thick pine trestle table that he made and he stained and finished them to match. We still use them every day. They have held up beautifully after three children and now four grandchildren. Sorry to disappoint you. I don't really have Polish thrones in my kitchen, just Hitchcock chairs that my brother finished to match the table he made.
The toothpick adventure was a good one -- because we have a bunch of good people around here.
Mel
Mel, You did it this time -
Mel,
You did it this time! Look at the mess of frivolous responses you have initiated. You don't suppose it's because this is "silly season" on the national front do you?
It was only about 2 weeks ago that someone objected to lighthearted responses after the 'heavy lifting' of a issue was resolved. I hope we don't lose him permanently.
Frosty
Frosty,
In all seriousness, I believe that a little frivolity once in a while is the path to good mental health. Notice that none of the responses in this thread are from the pious and self righteous and self-important members of Knots. The responses are from down-to-Earth folks who take their work seriously, but not themselves. These are my kind of people.
I have long felt that the primary benefit that most long-timers look for on Knots is comraderie -- spending a few minutes with friendly folks with similar interests. Most of us woodworkers spend long hours in the shop. When we emerge, a little social interaction via the web, is a welcome break -- the topic is irrelevant.
I think we enjoy a little "Banter" -- some lighthearted give and take, in which we get to try to demonstrate some degree of wit and humor. Not many of the long-timers are looking for woodworking wisdom. We already know that acquiring wisdom lies in getting more experience, and getting feedback from the things we to to wood.
By the way, I went to the LN show in Annapolis last week, and as always, they had an infill plane maker there selling his wares. Each time it is a different person. This is a nice thing for LN to do. Well, I walked up to the guy and introduced my self. His response was interesting "You are Mel! The guy on Knots." I was taken aback, but responded "Yup, that's me." I guess that there are not many woodworkers named Mel. THis was a nice guy. He asked me to try his planes, which I eagerly did. As with all of the infill planes, made by individual makers, his were excellent. So he said, "You know, people always ask me if my planes are five times better than LN planes, since they cost five times as much." I asked him what his response is to such people.
THIS GUY WAS REMARKABLY OPEN AND STRAIGHTFORWARD. NO BS AT ALL. He said that his planes (smoothers) are just as good as LN planes. He said, if you take a #5 1/2, and close the mouth, you have a plane which is as good as his, and it is more flexible, because you can always put in a high angle frog on the LN, and you can open the mouth on the LN if you want to. He said that his planes feel different when you use them, and that they are fun to use. He said that the reason to get one of his planes, is not to do better planing, but for the good feeling you get when using his planes.
I used all of the planes he had there, and he is absolutely right. They are heavy. They feel different than the LNs. They are fun to use. I felt good using them. I agree with him, they don't work any better than the LNs. As he said, they are like an expensive sports car. One doesn't need one, but they are very nice to have. They make a statement.
This guy is not only a woodworker and a plane maker, but he is intellectually honest and a stand-up guy. It was a pleasure to meet him. I asked him about his reasons for getting into plane making as a living, given that he has three small children. Again, he was very honest and straightforward. I didn't get the feeling he was kidding himself or anyone else.
Enjoy.
Mel
Your insight and a great experience
Mel, the Guy on Knots
I hope we get to meet someday. But when that time comes I will say, "Are you really 9619? What a handsome devil you are -better, even, than your picture."
Frosty
,
Fancy Kitchen Chairs
Mel , that there chair is a beautiful example of the period , you might find one like it in the White house down the road.
save the tooth picks for keeping your eyes open when you get bored with knots
regards , dusty
planing toothpicks
Don't forget that when you're fettling the toothpicks (flat ones, presumably), you'll need to modify your bench and vise to accept nano-dogs. The plastic toothpicks from Victorinox Swiss Army knives work well for this, with only minor modification.
A small jig with work-holding nano-cams can also work if you have a router attachment for your Dremel, and have put it on skis.
Swen, and Mel,
Ah the old toothpick rumor. I say rumor, because, in my years of working on chairs, I've seen all the repair methods. As Swen points out, toothpicks simply haven't got the structural integrity for this type of job. What you need is a ready supply of 8d nails. Not finish nails or box nails, mind you, but common nails. The extra length that these provide, can be utilised by wrapping the undriven portion (when you miss a lick with the hammer and bend it) around the chair leg, or alternatively, if you get lucky, driving all the way to the head, and clinching the extending point over.
If you don't have 8penny nails handy, you can use larger ones- 12 or 16d- never smaller. Don't drill a pilot hole for them either, that will only lessen their holding power; it's better to split the leg, and drive another couple nails into the split piece to hold it in place. Sometimes, if you have a bottle of half-dried rubber cement, or a hot glue gun, you can slobber some glue in the break, and down the leg an inch or two. It will help hold the broken piece away from where it split off. It's a good idea to take a length of coat hanger wire, and wrap this two or three times around the break, just for appearance's sake. Be sure and twist the ends of the wire together. A half turn is sufficient, if you leave the ends sticking up-- don't trim them too close, or they might not hold.
Hope this helps,
Ray
Ray,
I love the idea of the 16d nails and the old rubber cement. I have experimented with old rubber cement, and have found that adding some Gorilla glue increases the foaming power, and a small amount of Holstein urine retards the drying time, giving you time to get the nail driven in well, and cinched. If you use a hacksaw, and cut the nail lengthwise for an inch or so, you can cinch in two directions, much like using a cotter pin.
You failed to note the safety factor in cinching with big nails. YOu have to use a good deal of duck tape over the joint to prevent people from getting cut. Use the real duck tape, not the cheap duct imitation.
You never mentioned whether you like my kitchen chairs or not.
Mel
8d nails
Then again, maybe the rope over the seat is the simplest approach.
Frosty
No joke.
No joke, Ray. I once had a sledge hammer with all that stuff pounded into the handle to keep the head from coming off, and duct tape underneath the head where someone had overshot a splitting wedge and torn up that part of the handle. Also screws and various unknown metal objects. The bending over of nail heads seems common, the clinching of nail points didn't happen on this hammer though.
Swen,
Sledge hammers and axes, have a hard life.
And the same handyman approach works on them as on chairs.
Mel,
I didn't mention my appreciation of your kitchen chairs, as I wasn't sure whether I saw them before you moved into the State Dept's reception rooms, or before the Salahi's moved out..
R.
Duct tape ??
I can do one better than that. My son couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my splitting maul and kept breaking handles. Answer = I welded an eight inch piece of angle Iron to the head to protect the handle, worked great....
used them for a long time
I have used them so many times its not funny. I have used them all, flat round, even the ones with color and never had an issue. I don't sand I just shoot glue in and put them in to fill the gaps and when the glue is set, done. Filled many a stripped hole that way. Used regular glue and epoxy as well. Great little repair.
Don't know about tpicks but
Mel....thanks for the optimistic prognostication about the benefits of the election results. I so hope you are right. I want a congress that promises to put a new tool in every pot..the heck with the chicken!
Dog,
Glad you saw the humor in my prognostication. I do humor, not politics. I came up with a way of ending the war in Afghanistan. Look at the cost of the war. The big problem is that most folks in that country are destitute and have no way of making a living. Rather than fighting, why not just give each Afghani man, woman and child a full set of woodworking tools, and a ten week course at the Marc Adams school of woodworking.
That way, the entire country could turn out beautiful Chippendale furniture for IKEA, which would then be able to sell high end furniture reasonably. The big winner, of course, would be Stanley, which owns all of the tool makers in the universe (well, almost all).
The second biggest winner will be the Marc Adams school which will need at least 15,000 qualified woodworking teachers. Virtually everyone on Knots will be in a position to make at least $250,000 a year as a woodworking teacher.
And all of this will happen because Congress wiped out all possible taxes so that trickle-down economics could work its magic. AND ALL OF THIS IS COURTESY OF THE TEA PARTY. Believe it or not, the real saviour of the woodworking community is none other than SARAH PALIN. Soon her name will be bigger than names like: Rob Cosman, John White, Asa Christiana, Greene and Greene, Krenov, Chris Schwartz or David Charlesworth --- possibly even Ray Pine.
And all of this became clear to me because of toothpicks!
Have fun, Big Dog.
Mel
PS If anyone thinks this is a message about politics, they should reread it. This message makes less sense than most politicians do. THIS IS A MESSAGE ABOUT THE USE OF TOOTHPICKS FOR FURNITURE REPAIR!
Toothpick substitutes
Those mixed drink umbrellas are supplied with two sizes of repair material, big gap and hairline gaps. And don't forget about the red, yellow, blue and green tooth pics ! They can be used for making decorative mosaic inlays. At the moment I just can't figure where to use those little olive swords. But for humongous repairs, what about popsicle sticks or tongue depressors ? City Chicken skewers must have a place in here somewhere as well as the old reliable golf tee.
This is almost better than the political adds.
Bruce,
"This is almost
Bruce,
"This is almost better than the political ads".
Of course it is. Many of the ads are based on facts or at least rumors, or far-fetched flights of fancy. Much of this thread is totally baseless, Except for Ray Pine's suggestion that the use of 12d nails for chair repairs are better than toothpicks. It is amazing how free one feels when one is unencumbered by the need to have arguments based on reality.
Have fun.
Mel
An application for turned t/picks
you can see another on the frt page of the following link http://www.woodturningcenter.org/
ron
<a href="http://s908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/wood/?action=view¤t=IMG00022-20100401-1625.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/wood/IMG00022-20100401-1625.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac281/padresag/wood/IMG00022-20100401-1625.jpg
Read your reply about 20 minutes ago
And I'm still chuckling. Thanks Mel....and may God continue to Bless the mighty toothpick!
Dog,
You made my day. Thank you for telling me that.
Mel
Toothpick re-construction
Mel;
I enjoyed your "toothpick" query down to your last fear of the ultimate joint re-failure. Be of good cheer in such case-what better way to get your point across? Or, IN?
Kemo
Joint repair
Mel,
A few years back I think it was Grex found that if you were to use their 18 Ga, brad nailer to shoot the tooth pick deep in to the joint it would produce enough pressure that the joint would never fail again.
You had to use the flat toothpicks only, they strongly suggested using a good digital caliper to take a measurement of reference piece of 18 Ga. This allows you to use that measurement to compare to the toothpick thickness to stay within a certain tolerence.
See what you've started again, This is why I gave up being pissed off at Taunton and paid my renewal.....
Taigert
Taigert,
Wait until you hear about what you started. You leaked the info about what Grex did with toothpicks. I hear that spies from the Soviet Union have been reading Knots, looking for U.S. State secrets. When they heard what you said about what Grex did, they started development of a modification to the AK-47, which will shoot toothpicks. While they say that they are only doing this for peaceful purposes -- eg the rapid repair of vast numbers of chairs, others are saying that they are just looking for cheap ammunition. The N.R.A has sided with the Soviet Union.
But there is a bright side to all of this. Festool has come up with a modification of the AK-47 which they have re-engineered to decrease the dust emitted from the weapon, so that it can be used to lock the joints in timber framed houses.
As a result of this new-found interest in toothpicks, Brazil has increased their harvesting of large trees in the Rain Forest, which will in turn, hasten Global Warming, which of course, will bring about the end of the Earth as we know it.
And all of this is happening because of this thread.
Have fun. Let your mind run wild. It is amazing what that will do for the creativity in the design of new furniture.
Mel
Government Warning!
Because of the unfortunate incident last year, as documented in "Woodworking Accidents in North America" Vol 19, page 233, the Government Warning Sticker required on Grex products has been amended to read, "Shooting toothpicks from this product must be limited to chair joint repair and never used to actually clean teeth. Doing so while driving can cause serious injury or death" The warning goes on to mention pregnancy and breast feeding but I forget that part. With the patent pending on the PickStop this may become moot.
Swenson,
Remember when Norm used to use a nail gun on his TV show to attach pieces of wood to the thing he was building????? Just think how much cooler it would have been if he had been using the "Toothpick Shooting Grex", than the metal nail shooting gun.
Also, if Grex can come up with a "maching gun" version of the toothpick Grex, then we can use the tool to create textures in woodwork that have never before been possible. Just think of the "Porcupine Finish" that could be applied. In the past, we had to tell kids and dogs to stay away from the furniture. With the Porcupine texture, the furniture would be able to protect itself from kids and dogs.
Mel
Truth stranger than fiction.
Mel,
As they say truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. If you go to the Turning Center link that sid works sent you in his reply to this thread you will see briefly, in the spinning pictures on their site, a shot of the very porcupine look you are talking about. A bowl studded with what look like toothpicks or maybe it's a wooden porcupine.
Gordon,
Someone stole my idea and published it before I had a chance to use it. Is it possible that there is such a thing as parapsychology and thought control?
Mel
Parapsychology.
While I was at Duke in 1957 and 1958 I was one of Dr.Rhine's subjects at his East Campus Parapsychology lab. I got involved in some PK experiments too. It was Dr. Rhine who coined the phrase ESP and he was the inventor of the deck of cards used to test it, the twenty five card deck using five symbols, circle, square, cross, star, wavy lines. At that time he wasn't a true believer but just a scientist studying the phenomenon. I wasn't too sure about the objectivity of some of his associates though. Sometime I'll have to tell you the whole story, and no I don’t have ESP or PK abilities, but I did show some promise quite a bit over the statistical norm back then for a while at least.
As for thought control, as long as you keep the tinfoil helmet on you are safe from the gummint, but then they can spot you from blocks away when they see your helmet so it is a tossup.
The Duke thing is for real, by the way. Sometimes, with me, it is hard to tell.
Gordon, I knew you were
Gordon,
I knew you were going to say that.
Mel
PS ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
PPS I think the thread has run its course. It was a fun trip. So we need another good topic. At the place I work, someone asked how we could increase the flow of traffic in the store. I suggested that we merge with the local strip club, and become an "adult woodworking" establishment. What do you think? I know there are safety implications. But think of the possibilities. How many babies have you heard of that were made on the bed of a 72" table saw? The ads in FWW would be much more interesting. Can you see it? Hugh Hefner recommending his own brand of bandsaws. As you said, truth is stranger than fiction. Porcupine furniture already exists. Can adult woodworking be far behind? As you know, the woodworking community is about 99.999% male and the average age is 86.735. Adult woodworking is a way to get more younger men into woodworking, and more women. Think of the jobs it would create. We would need more models for advertisements. I think a beautiful young girl holding a chisel would be quite convincing. I'll bet that we could convince Festool and Victoria's Secret to come out with a nice green woman's nightie (which is well engineered, of course.) How about the boom it could cause in Los Vegas, where there would be "His and Hers" woodworking weekends in the casinos, with special shows, and special woodworking cruises which also offer belly dancing lessons. I would bet that someone in Vegas would build a special "Woodworking Wedding" chapel.
BUT if things go this way, I will lose out on the potential of making millions of dollars in woodworking. I had planned a new series of woodworking tools, videos, books, etc for male woodworkers over 85 who are in rest homes. I BELIEVE THERE IS REAL POTENTIAL HERE, since current woodworkers are not getting any younger.
The thread has run its course.
Just when you say "the thread has run its course" you introduce sex into the conversation in a blatant attempt to keep it going for another thirty or so posts. We are onto your methods. It has been used to get higher TV ratings for years. That table saw with the 72" inch bed better have SawStop and a blade guard in place and the blade lowered and the power cord unplugged and the breaker thrown to off and the main power switch turned off as well is all I can say. And all that cast iron is gonna be cold, too.
Gordon,
I thought I was being very subtle, but you saw right through me. I just finished reading the book, "Being effective by being subtle" by Newt Gingrich. I may have to try another method of being subtle.
Mel
I can't talk right now, I'm too busy reading "How to be Humble in Defeat" by Nancy P.
The Nancy
Chuckle.
Ralph,
I recommend the new book that has just been jointly penned by Republican National Committee and the Democratic National Committee, named "GRIDLOCK".
Last night I had a nightmare. The Handtool specialists and the Power Tool Specialists decided to take their positions to the extreme. Both have decided to argue their platforms on a national stage. Each will try to convince the People of the Rightousness of their Beliefs and the Wrongfulness of the beliefs of their opposition., AND all woodwork will come to a halt while the debate takes place. Both sides have decided not to give an inch in this battle of polemics, dogma and ideology. It does not matter if the people need furniture and woodwork for their homes. Who cares about the People. We have our beliefs to defend. Compromise is out of the question.
A movie is being made of this. It is named "The Years the Earth Stood Still". The people had to stand since there was no furniture to sit on. Some are hoping that it is true that "At the precipice, we change." , and furniture can start to be made again. Keanu Reaves will play the lead. The debate becomes more and more heated, until...........
But then in a post-apolyptical world in which furniture is non-existant, a lone man comes to the fore . He is known as "The Road Furniture Builder", and is played by a young Mel Gibson. He leads a rag-tag group of people who still remember how to use tools, and he starts the world building furniture again.
So all will end well, but don't get too excited yet. We still have a few years of GRIDLOCK to go through.
That was one heck of a nightmare.
Mel
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