A friend has asked me to help him renew the finish on his kitchen cabinets. They are oak and oak veneer manufactured cabinets that are thirty years old. The original finish is very thin with almost no gloss. I suspect that it is thinly sprayed laquer. I have previously topcoated this type of finish with aerosol Deft with good results.
Is there any test to distinguish between laquer and varnish existing finish? What are typical finishes for kitchen cabinets from the 1970s?
I would like to use aerosol polyurethane varnish or rub-on polyurethane in my current project. Is it stable on top of a commercial laquer?
Thanks
Replies
I would take a rag at an inconspicuous spot that has some lacquer thinner on it and wipe it on the cabinet. If the finish comes up you have lacquer. As far as finish compatability I don't have the answer.
just say no.
30 years old abinets , and he wants a neophyte to rejuvenate them.
Hell, even a pro would shy away from that idea.
even without seeing them I will reiterate that "just say no" idea.
If he finds someone else willing to undertake the job, more power to him. better you ain't thee when it don't work or the finish fails next year, or the job don't turn out quite what he expected.
Been there done that. more than once.
the way I see it is that the odds of a succesful outcome is about 1 in 10, and in order to achieve that you gotta bust yer but with cleaning and a whole bunch of elbow grease.
And stress, cause once yous start, you is committed to finishing the job.
just say no.
Eric
Eric,Your attitude leaves something to be desired. I'm not undertaking this for money. As I mentioned, I have done one such project, new laquer on old, thin laquer, that turned out beautifully. I'm looking for advice about polyurethane on top of other finishes. If the advice is all negative, I will stick with Deft.
Dougsmith,
I did a bit of playing around with my oak kitchen cabs this weekend....I'm trying to figure out what I should do. I took the two small doors from above the range hood down and scrubbed them with plastic pad and mineral spirits, wiped and let dry. Then I put one coat of minwax wipe on satin on one door and rehung when dry. The doors are clean but very little else positive has come from the effort; One door is a tiny bit glossier and I may put additional coats of the wipe on varnish. Any discoloration in the cabinet door from wear and tare will not be corrected.
My cabs are 20 year old.
BG,Thanks for this information. If I go this route, I will definitely use the spray poly. I have had my doubts about the wipe-on poly and I have only rarely used it for any kind of finishing. I'm not looking for repair of wear to the wood, just a brightened and glossy finish that will let the existing patina and grain show. But I am hoping to avoid failure of the finish. Do you have any idea what the original finish was on your cabinets? Thanks,
Dougsmith
dougsmith,
"Do you have any idea what the original finish was on your cabinets?"
Sorry, I do not know the original finish. The wipe on poly appears to be holding without complications. However, I'd probably throw on a wash coat of shellac and go forward from there with whatever...if I did have a problem.
As was mentioned, you can test for lacquer with lacquer thinner.
On a clean surface, polyurethane varnish will adhere to a surface that has been evenly sanded with 320 grit paper. The secret is getting the surface really, really clean. A strong cleaner such as TSP is a good place to start, and then copious amounts of mineral spirits should be used. Use lots, and lots, of paper towels or rags to ensure you are removing any oil and grease, not just smearing it around. This is a challenging job and it must be done right or polyurethane varnish won't adhere very well.
A traditional resin varnish, either brush on or wipe on, will provide substantially similar protection as polyurethane varnish, but has the advantage of being less likely to have adhesion problems. It will also rub out more evenly. If I wanted the protective qualities of varnish this is what I would use given that spraying isn't an option.
Steve,I did the laquer thinner test on one door and to my surprise the spot I rubbed on got shinier not duller. I then cleaned the whole door with mineral spirits. This caused no change in the appearance of the wood which remained dull. Then returning to the laquer thinner wipe, I rubbed the spot three times with fresh thinner each time. There was a hint of color rubbing onto the white cloth. This may be stain coming up. But the finish has gotten shiny on that little spot and has not dulled. What does this tell me about the finish I am dealing with?
Thanks
Steve,I learned a valuable lesson here. I tried the lacquer thinner test on a lacquer finish that I had applied a few years ago. Just a little rubbing with a thinner wipe nearly stripped the finish in that spot! So it is very easy to tell if you have lacquer. The finish I am dealing with does not behave that way. It is very durable against thinner. It is nothing exotic, so I conclude that it is polyurethane varnish. I read at the Minwax site that lacquer is not stable over polyurethane. I had to do substantial hunting to find that statement. The Deft site did not mention it. So I avoided a rush into disaster by switching my top coating efforts to poly. I have completed the first cabinet door now, as a test. It is bright and glossy with a smooth texture. Poly will be a little more work than lacquer, but hopefully things will go well now and my friend will have much more attractive kitchen cabinets.
Dougsmith
I read at the Minwax site that lacquer is not stable over polyurethane. I had to do substantial hunting to find that statement.
Nothing is very stable over cured poly, including poly.Gretchen
This probably deserves a new thread, but I'll start here. I've got the same problem -- wanting to top finish some 30-year-old oak cabinets -- but in addition I want to finish several new doors and a drawer face to match the old. Obviously I should do the refinishing first, which is apparently hard enough, but am I dreaming to think I'll be able to make the new work match the old?
It's not impossible if you are patient and have a good eye. But matching them today, probably means a small mismatch tomorrow, since oak does darken a bit over time. You will need to use dyes, and possibly a toned finish to get to a really close finish.
It's dramatically easier, and looks quite good in many situations, to make the new cabinets contrast rather than match. With oak you could dye the new ones to a darker brown.
I like the contrast idea, but it won't work here. In this situation, I removed a trash compactor and built a new drawer/cabinet combo, and added another door in the back side of a corner cabinet to reach the previously damn-near-inaccesible space. All the new stuff really has to match the old. OTOH, my wife doesn't like the dark (very dark) cabinets and wants to (ugh!) paint them white, so maybe that's the answer.
doug was sayin...Just a little rubbing with a thinner wipe nearly stripped the finish in that spot! So it is very easy to tell if you have lacquer.Doug- not if the laquer is post catalyzed, -laquer thinner won't touch it once it's cured. Moreover, it is according to my supplier, the preferred finish (I ain't saying BEST, just preferred) to kitchen cabinets. If I want to clean my gun tips after this stuff has cured on it, I have to use paint remover. Soaking it in laquer thinner/ acetone/ misc solvents don't do nothin to it. And even with the paint remover, it sometimes takes 2-3 applications. Eric
Doug,
The reason the finish became shiny is that you exposed new lacquer when you rubbed it with lacquer thinner. Your finish my even have been tinted lacquer from the factory. Not unusual in commercial applications. Poly will work fine over old lacquer, but the key is the prep. One of the posts recommened a lot of cleaning, that is an understatement. Old cabinets are covered with human oil from hands and plenty of greases. The best cleaner is probably wax and grease remover from the auto industry. It is meant to clean lacquer finishes on cars before repainting. You can get it at a parts store that carries auto paint supplies. You then need to sand with 320 open coat paper and then wax and degrease again. You are not crazy, just a good friend.
This might sound easy but if all you want is a little face lift , try washing the surface with a little 409 or something that won't fume the oak. Then wax e'm up with briwax, Which also has ecellent cleaning properties and is easy to maintain. Try a test piece first.
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