Has anybody owned a Tormek grinder. And how does the jointer/planer accessory work. Any recomendations regarding an all-around grinder that also sharpens long jointer knives.
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Replies
I have been using the Tormek for a few years now and like it more every time I use it. I also have the jointer/planer jig and think that while pricey initially, it has saved me more time and money than just about anything else in the shop. just being able to sharpen knives when I need to rather than wait or pay someone else is a big deal to me.
I have reviews of both the Tormek itself and the knife jig at the links below if more info would be of help.
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/tormekrevu.html
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/svh320rvu.html
Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
Do you have access to one, or can you watch somebody actually use one (not just a demo, although that would be OK there's nothing else)? I've had mine for about six years and do use it frequently, though not for planer or jointer blades. I find it better to give these to ####machine shop that's used to working them. There's a learning curve like most tools. I especially like the Tomek for reshaping cutting tools, but I still turn to water stones for that last honing step. The Tormek -- in my opinion -- only does what it's supposed to do up to a point and the jigs (and you'll need a bunch of them) are very pricy. That's why I suggest you talk to somebody, if you can, who's using one before you buy one. A local knife dealer here who sharpens commercially had two of them for years and recently gave them up in favor of an abrasive-belt machine. Nothing's perfect!
I've had a Tormek for two years and like it a lot. It is particularly good for sharpening chisels and plane irons. You can do a bunch in a short time and it really cuts down on the time I spend sharpening- or using dull tools. I agree that some of the jigs are pricey and of limited value.One question: the waterstone that comes with the Tormek is fairly fine (even in its "coarse" mode). I'd like to get a 60 grit stone to use on the Tormek for quickly grinding down axes, mower blades, etc (it takes an age with the Tormek OEM stone). Ideally this would be a wet running stone, but I could also use a dry stone for this rough purpose. Anyone aware of any vendors that supply a coarse stone (60 or 80) that will fit the Tormek?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
thank you guys for your input. i think I will buy the tormek and some of the accessories that I need right now. It is expensive but there is nothing better out there, i think. I rather spend the money upfront that put up with the frustration with a cheap grinder which I know will make a lot of noise and not do much else. I usually end up spending a lot of time fixing things, fine tuning stuff and things that take up time that I can instead use to do some shop work or read a good book. I think this is going to be a good investment and I am hopeful that the jointer jig will work just fine afer I play with it a little and I think I can put my faith in the Tormek brand.
Don't mean to hijack, but this may be relevant for you... I just got a sale circular from Woodcraft, and the Jet slow grinder on the cover is pretty much, near as I can see, a Tormek-killer/clone.
Anyone play with it?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
It must be a new product for Jet, I don't remember seeing it in the 2006 catalog. Sure looks interesting and they say Tormek accesories are interchangeable. If Jet has it I bet Grizzly and Shopfox are not far behind. Cool, Sharpener Price Wars!!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
WOODCRAFT HAS A 10% OFF SALE TOMORROW (JULY 27th), IN THEIR STORES AND ALSO ONLINE/CATALOG ORDERS. JUST THOUGHT YOU GUYS MIGHT LIKE TO KNOW.
LEE
I bought the Jet when it first came out. Haven't used it for planer blades yet, but it works really on knives, scissors, plane blades, and chisels. I was in the store looking at the Tormek, the Jet does the same thing for $100 less. :-)
"It is expensive but there is nothing better out there, i think."
Hi Temujin,
Far more expensive, but arguably more versatile, is the LapSharp system. I've been test driving it for about a year at school, and, though very pricey, it works well and does at least one thing that Tormek cannot: flatten the backs of plane irons and chisels.
In either case, you may want to talk with others who regularly use these kinds of expensive systems to determine how much you'll really use them. If you've got abundant resources, they can be great time savers, but if you divide their cost by the number of hours you'll actually spend using them, I think you'll find that the cost per minute of actual use is pretty high relative to the time saved: it's a decision only you can make.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
While the Lapsharp can flatten plane and chisel backs, it doesn't offer the hollow grind that I prefer on the bevel. That, plus the facts of being quieter, less dusty, and less costly are the primary reasons I chose a Tormek.
Hi Deirdre and All,
The LapSharp is a fairly quiet machine. It is better made than even the venerable Tormek, which I do own. Well, it's my wife's.
I did use the Tormek to sharpen planer and jointer blades. Works a snap. One would need to try to do a poor job by pressing too hard to make them not true. The 2 of my planers and the jointer are gone now. If it wasn't for the lunchbox planer in storage, I would sell off the non-turning accessories.
My wife uses the T machine to do her turning tools and I do an occassional plane blade or chisel if she has it set up. Else I use a sationary belt sander for rough work.
It is a well made machine. But so too are the LapSharp and the Veritas MK.II Power Sharpener, another flat-disc machine. The LapSharp can be used wet, but not the MK.II as it turns much too fast.
As Dierdre mentions, the lack of dust with a wet system is nice. My wife sharpens her tools next to the kitchen sink while sipping coffee [well, except when she's in the middle of a job]. Try that with a non-wet system.
Any of the above will work fine. But then, so does a hand-crank, a belt sander, the large wheel Adam has, and even the lowley bench grinder.
Take care, Mike
I admit the Tormek probably seems quieter than it actually is because I find the gentle gurgling so pleasant. :)
I believe you can flatten the backs of irons and shisels on the Tormek by using the side of the wheel. I prefer a diamond "stone", but I know somebody who does it on the Tormek.
Hi Jim,
I reckon you could; it never occurred to me to try it. Guess I'd have to figure out a way to keep the sides bathed in water to wash away the swarf.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
temujin,
I own one and all of the attachments.. extremely pricey. If I knew now what I've learned since then I wouldn't have sprung for it..
First the cheapest and fastest way to make things scary sharp is by the scary sharp method.. (sandpaper on glass) $10.00 and a plastic bag and you can make things soooooo sharp that you can cut an idea in half..
My Tormex did an OK job of sharpening my jointer, planner, and power planer blades.. However the shorter ones (say 6-8 inches) could be sharpened quicker and faster with the scary sharp method and longer ones were never as good as I could get the local priners service to do.. By actual count I got half of the boards planned with Tormex blades than I got with local printers service.. (printers all need super sharp blades to scrape ink off the printer) The price was cheap and service was one night.
The real need for the Tormex was to sharpen the chisels and gouges for my lathe. That my friend is a real learning curve.. You need to be extremely fussy when setting up or they won't cut worth squat.. The edge I buy them with is usually better than I wind up with.. Frankly I need someone to help me here..
scissors and kitchen knives which have no real need for razor like sharpness are fine and if they really need that I wipe out the sandpaper and do a scary sharp on them..
Frenchy,
I'm in agreement with you. I've owned both of the Delta wet stone machines, now doing little more than collecting dust. I purchased 2 - 12 x 12 marble tiles at HD, had them cut in half (free) and stopped in at the local auto supply for a selection of grits from 800 to 2000. Then I purchased the Veritas guide. For well under $100 I finally had sharp chisels and a near foolproof sharpening system.
Last night I got a splinter that broke off well under the skin so it could not be reached with tweezers. Using my trusty 1/2" bench chisel I was able to slice the layer of skin over the splinter and gently lift it out with the tweezers.
Now, before everyone starts railing me about "right tool for the job", I sold my chainsaw at a yard sale several years ago. I had to make do with what I had available.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
i have the Scheppach (Tormek clone). I just bought the Lee Valley MK II motorized sharpener. It is many times better than the scheppach. Tools from the Scheppach still need honing on waterstones. Tools off of the MK II are ready to go.......
I will keep my scheppach for my jointer and planer knives but everything else is sharpened on the MK II
Rennie, regarding your sliver,
Next time glue it!
Seriously put some Elmers glue on it, let it dry and 99 times out of a hundred if you pull it off correctly the sliver comes out..
Great, now the Titebond proponents will kick in, then one Gorilla guy, then the hide glue (pearl and premixed) will tell us it's the only way to go.
Then a couple Breaktimers will chime in with construction adhesive and epoxy and the whole thing will get shuffled to the Cafe.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
A very sticky subject, indeed!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I've got the jointer blade jig, and don't use it, as I just decided to send them out. I have a 12" jointer, and a 24" planer, and my sharpening service does a good job. If you wanna get a deal on the jig, let me know, I used it twice.
Jeff
I have had a Tormek for over fiv years but I found it to be very slow when "rough" grinding. I eventually started using water stones and found them to be much faster in sharpening even when honing up to 8000 grit. I don't have the need for planer blade sharpening so the water stones are wide enough for my chisels and plane blades. I use a linishing belt sander for producing the 25 degree grind (using frequent quenching) and find that I can quickly progress through the grits from 800 to 8000 (total of four stones) for the final 30 degree edge.
I don't think the performance of the Tormek is worth the cost. Also I was disappointed in the quality of the engineering, the difficulty in setting the rests to ensure the ground edge is square to the sides of the blade, the slowness in coarse grind, and the use of the leather wheel. The finish produced by the leather wheel is very good, but the geometry of the edge is rounded, not flat. I find the consistency in geometry possible with a honing guide on a water stone is much better.
Bevin
I agree with you about the slowness of the "coarse" grind, which, IMHO, is not very coarse. I had asked in an earlier post if there were any #60 grinding wheels available for the Tormek, but so far no replies.As for the squareness thing, it does require a little care. I find that marking the edge to be ground with a try square and a Sharpie allows me to set it up to square fairly easily. For me the leather wheel is a good way to refresh a sharp edge that has been cutting for a bit.I generally use the Tormek to hollow grind new or recently bought old tools. I use wet stones or the scary sharp method to achieve a mirror-like edge, and the leather Tormek wheel to touch them up between honings on stones.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 7/29/2006 12:04 pm ET by Glaucon
When I first got the Tormek a few years ago, I was amazed how fast it cut for such a slow running machine. Over time it slowed down and finally got so it wouldn't cut at all. I have since ground it down with the diamond but it still doesn't cut like when it was new. Haven't used it much lately as way too busy building the new shop to keep the tools sharp. Must do that.
Hmmm. I know that there are some (expensive) Japanese wet stones available- not sure if they work better- or if any are available for coarse grinding. Also, have you tried redressing the stone with the diamond dressing tool?-mGlaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Yes, I have tried redressing the the stone and it made a world of difference, but I don't think even now it cuts quite as well as when it was new.
I have a Tormek sitting in the corner which will be on the market as soon as I have some spare time. I found that it was almost impossible to get it to truly grind the edge square to the sides which is a particular problem with BU plane blades without an adjustment. I have found that the the Scary-sharp system with a Veritas training wheel jig is as fast or faster than setting up the Tormek and much better (and more reproducible). When I need to re-bevel a blade I use an inverted belt sander with 220 grit (a la Tage Frid) and then hone a short +1 or 2 degree bevel for sharpness. I used to try and flatten the backs of irons and chisels on the side of the Tormek. When I checked them on the float glass with the Scary-sharp system, they were way off flat.
To each his own... but I really can't agree about using the side of the Tormek to flatten the backs of plane irons or chisels. I use the Tormek to hollow grind new tools, or those that I am reconditioning. I flatten the backs on a stone or on float glass with sandpaper of different grits- just the same as if I were truing a plane. I grind the primary bevel with the Tormek with the fine wheel setting. I then flatten the back on a 4000 stone, and make a few passes of the primary bevel with the same stone. I use the leather wheel on the Tormek to set a secondary bevel, and make a few passes on an 8000 grit stone on the back of the chisel or iron. I can set up and do a set of six chisels in about 40 minutes- they are now all hollow ground and razor sharp. When I use a chisel for a while, I can refresh the secondary bevel with a quick freehand pass on the leather wheel, and back to work.As far as setting things up square, I have used several different grinders, and the Tormek is by far the easiest to set things up square, and is highly reproducible. A small try square is all I've ever needed to check with- not sure where the difficulty that you have expereinced comes from.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I looked at Jet's Tormek clone in our area Woodcraft store yesterday.
With Jet's improvements, I don't see why anyone would now spend $100 more on the Tormek. So I'm down to either the Jet or the Veritas Mk II. The Veritas is about $50 more, which is not too important to me.
It appears to be better than the Jet/Tormek as a turn-key sharpening system,
because it's better suited for flattening/lapping operations. However, I'm leaning toward the Jet. I already have glass and sandpaper to flatten planes, which is not something I expect to be doing often anyway. I could continue using that method for all my sharpening but it's fairly slow & messy, plus I do not have the right space to leave the glass set up all the time. I like the idea of having two wheels ready to go, one for grinding and one for honing/touch-ups. The Jet/Tormek looks like it would be cleaner than the Veritas (no dust). I'd like to be able to sharpen stuff in the kitchen during cold weather, as my shop is over in an unheated garage. Am I missing something? I'm a hobby/home-improvement guy, not a production woodworker. So speed is less important than having something as close to fool-proof as possible. I've read that students seem to like the Tormek in that respect. And I think of the flat-ground v. hollow-ground issue as just a religious war as far as general-purpose woodworking is concerned (though I'd probably prefer flat ground if I had to pick sides).
Tom21769,
Please take it from a guy who owns a Tormek,
Carefull set up and the most careful use the Tormex doesn't sharpen as well as it really needs to..
I bought my Tormek primarily for the gouges I use with my lathe.. But what I'm saying applies to everything, knives, chisels, plane irons, etc..
I'll go into details as to why if you are really interested. But no wheel system can really do as fine as the sandpaper system does..
I don't leave mine set up all the time. I put it away in a drawer. I slide everything into a big zip lock bag and it's out of sight in a few moments. My Tormex on the other hand occupies valuable space on top of the bench even if I haven't used it in six months..
Now the Tormex isn't worthless, it does a fine job of rough sharpeneing. Nicks and damaged tools go onto the Tormex to be straightened quickly. The idea of removing a nick with the sandpaper has me cold.. I wonder how many hours it would take . I'd be tempted to just use a bench grinder and risk losing the temper but the Tormex saves me from that.
That is what the Tormex or it's clones does.. Nothing more!
> Carefull set up and the most careful use the Tormex doesn't sharpen as well as it really needs to..I'll buy that. How about getting a new chisel sharp enough to cut a clean hinge mortise in a White Pine door? Is a Tormek good enough to do that (without any follow-on Scary Sharp)? Ever use it to sharpen an ax ?Sounds like you're saying it would be good enough, with glass and sandpaper at the ready to prepare for more demanding tasks (chiseling dovetails in hardwood, or planing difficult grains.)
Tom: I'll chime in here if you all don't mind. Tormek/Jet for rough sharpening or less critical items. Finish up with water stones/sandpaper & glass/ or ? and keep a leather hone pre-loaded with compound at hand. This should suffice for all straight bladed tools and kitchen knifes etc. I'd like to hear from others about their experience with aftermarket stones for the Tormek, could they eliminate the need for follow up fine finishing of an edge? I have no experience with curved blades so I will listen to the advice from others on Knots when that time comes.
KDM"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
I got a Tormek when I got a lathe and the various gouges etc that go with turning. I had no desire to attempt to create or sharpen those difficult profiles without the help of something like a Tormek and its guides.
It does well in these tasks. I use the profiled leather honing wheel to create the final edge on turning tools. Although they then cut well, I suspect that a mirror polish edge might perform better. But it's too big a step from the 1000 grit wet wheel to the honing compound on the leather wheel to get a true mirror finish.
I have used the Tormek for plane irons, chisels and other straight bladed tooling. As others have said, it does a fine job gettingthe basic edge but then you need to go to another medium to improve the edge to the point where it is "pleasurably" sharp.
There is a rumour that you can get 4000 or even an 8000 grit wet wheel for the Tormek - but at a ridiculous price. (You'd also have to swap the wheels out, adjust for any different diameter etc.).
I now sharpen straight blades via diamond stone to micro grit sandpaper and reserve the Tormek for those curved tools.
Lataxe
Lataxe: It amazes me how every element of woodworking from joinery to sharpening to finishing and on and on has such depth. So many details and personal angles. I wish I had another 30 years to learn or that I had started way back when. KDM"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Tom21769,
Most tools come with decent enough edges to use the scary sharp method needing the Tormex only when damage occurs. If I'd known that before I bought mine I wouldn't have bought it..
My hand ax I use a simple stone and some patience to sharpen.. I kinda enjoy sitting in front of the fire mesmerized and slowly polish the edge reasonably sharp.. I once went at it with the scary sharp method simply to see for myself how much nicer a really fine edge would be.. to my surprise it wasn't.. a few brutal chops and the nice was off plus the ax actually bit too deep into the wood and where normally It came out quickly thus promoting a nice rhythm with the scary sharp I found myself wrestling it out after each chop..
I do use my Tormex for sharpening gouges for use on my lathe because I have not found a method to sharpen the round gouges common in lathe work with the scary sharp method.. at best though the gouges are a poor substitue for new. which is nuts considering how often you need to sharpen them.
Once you are used to the sharp edges common with the scary sharp method the semi dull edge of the Tormex is a real disappointment..
I certainly would expect bettter than "semi dull" out of a $300 (Jet) or $400 (Tormek) sharpening machine. To watch the demonstration videos, and read some of the user comments, these machines are indeed capable of sharpening chisels and plane irons well enough to shave the hair off my arm. Which is good enough for me.
So I'm baffled by the mix of some people who characterize the results with words like "semi dull" and others who suggest you can use a Tormek/clone to sharpen a scalpel. I'm thinking the problem is probably the combination of moving parts that all have to be in correct alignment for good results. With sandpaper on glass, the only alignment issue is in the jig (or your hands).
Hi Tom,
Regarding the different opinions about whether it gets tools sharp or not, (as a Tormek user for the last 1/2 year) I can say that a lot of it boils down to whether the user can get the honing wheel to give good results. Some users might not even be dressing the sharpening wheel to 1000 grit (the dressing stone allows the wheel to alternate between a grind at 220 (250?) and sharpening at 1000). The honing paste that Tormek supplies for the honing wheel is 6000 grit, and if you substitute the (superfine) green compound, I think that you get a polish that corresponds to about 8000 grit. For me, this is sharp enough. However, if someone doesn't use the honing wheel correctly (which is admittedly somewhat tricky), it is easy to dub the edge (hence "semi-dull").
Cheers,
Andy
Andy
I am coming to this discussion late, so the point I make may already have been stated.
A 1000 grit scratch goes quite deep on a bevel edge. If you then hone with the 6000 or 8000 grit rouge on top of this, what you are left with is a shiny and sharp serrated edge (this is visible to the eye). This may be fine for many tasks, such as a chisel or general planing with a jack, but it will leave a rough surface if used in a smoother.
The issue for me is not whether the blade edge is sharp enough, but whether it is smooth enough. The latter is only achieved when scratches are reduced in size to an acceptable level. Honing post Tormek grinding is necessary to achieve this goal.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi VT--only the first paragraph relates to your post...
The honing paste as supplied by Tormek is actually a friable mix of grits and break down during use. Nominal may be 6k, but it starts out coarser and has finer grit composition. This is why it cuts quickly and then polishes well.
Looked at under a microscope, the edge produced with the grindstone graded to 1k is coarse. Following the Tormek honing compound, it is very smooth. If the LV green 8k compound is then used, there is a notcible difference, but not one which makes it worth doing both compounds.
Still, I follow use of the Tormek with an 8k stone either before use [such as my paring chisels or smoother irons] or not for about every thing else.
It's a good machine when used properly. But it is only one option. I use my wife's Tormek harder than most all the machines in place in commercial shops. We can go through a stone every two months. It runs for several hours per day in use.
While I will also probably purchase the Jet, I have no expectation it will run for years under those conditions. If it does, I will be very pleasantly surprised.
Take care, Mike
Hi Derek and Mike,
I agree 100% with what both of you said; but I'd say that a polished, microscopically serrated edge is still different than the "semi-dull" edge claimed by some! At any rate, I personally don't believe that it's much of a critique to say that the Tormek doesn't stand alone -- so what, neither would a high speed or low-speed grinder.
-Andy, who hones on waterstones between grindings on the Tormek...
-Andy, who hones on waterstones between grindings on the Tormek...
My use as well. And heck, sometimes I use a belt sander if the tormek isn't set up or I'm lazy and the belt sander is right there.
Most roads lead to sharp. And you are correct. The Tormek or Jet will get one way past semi-dull. Heck, used correctly I would have no problem using the edge produced for all but more demanding work. Oops. I do...
Take care, Mike
VTAndy,
As I said I own a Tormex and it certainly has it's place.. However if you remember the issue on sharpening a few years back where they showed the cutting edge under a microscope of all the differant ways to sharpen things, you should remember that the Tormex had a semi rough appearance with a slightly rolled over edge that had been "buffed" by the honing wheel..
I really took exception with that having spent nearly a thousand dollars on a Tormex and all the attachments just prior to that.. I mean I was really happy with the edge I got from my Tormex compared to other edges.. Here was the sharpest I'd ever gotten a tool and they were saying it wasn't as good a a cheap piece of glass and sandpaper..
You can imagine just how angery I was!
When I calmed down I did back to back sharpening with both methods and found I could sharpen faster and better using the scary sharp compared to the Tormex.. Set Up time was so much longer and finicky using the Tormex (oh sure, if all I ever used was to sharpen a pair of scissors I wouldn't have to change the set up but then why did I buy all of the attachments? (I digress)
I had a bunch of blocks of wood cut at the various angles required and now it's a matter of grabbing a clearly marked block of wood as a guild and make a few quick passes.. I don't even need to reoil the paper because it's pretty well saturated. a couple of passes, pull off the sheet replace it with the next finer one and a couple more passes.. In a minute or so I can have a chisel or plane iron absolutely razor sharp where it's actaully fun to work across a burl or knot..
The fundamental weakness of the Tormex system is there is only one grit available on the main stone and buffing doesn't maintain the same precision of angles.
If they had five or six differant wheels on the Tormex It would be better than the scary sharp method.. it has one and that's what hurts it..
Now I use the Tormex to change the angles or remove nicks and etc. but that's where I stop..
Touch up is so quick using the scary sharp and the final edge so exact that if you wer to do back to back testing you too would feel the way I do about your Tormex..
Yep, the Tormek isn't the end all of sharpening.
The Tormek wheel when used with the grading block is two grits, the high is 1k but I forget what the coarse is other than it is coarse.
Used properly, there is no significant dubbing of the bevel using the leather wheel.
I too use it similar to you use, that of grinding. But the edge produced if used with care does produce an edge as refined as you will get with stones or SS.
Used as a grinder to reshape bevels and hollow grinds to reduce honing time, it is a good system. But it can produce fine edges as is.
Take care, Mike
mwenz
I suspect I've used just about 1/2 of the ways to sharpen there are.. Grinders, stones both oil and water, My Tormex system and a few others.. I used to look at my edges under a giant maganifing glass that I had. Not quite an electron microscope like the magazine used to take pictures with but enough so that I could tell when I rolled the edges over on the buffing wheel.. Then I'd resharpen and use a lighter touch on the buffing wheel..
Wow! was I proud of how sharp they were.. I'd sharpen knives and then shave with them.
I'd never been able to consistantly do that good of a job on edges..untill I got my Tormex.
Then Fine Wood Working comes out with that article on sharpening,,,.
Frankly I'd never heard of scary sharp before..
If you try it you will understand that as good an edge as you can get with a Tormex it's very much less than the edge you get with the scary sharp method.. That once you have both methods a simple touch up is so fast with the scary sharp method compared to the Tormex..
Just for perspective, I'm probably as bad as the next guy when it comes to sharpening.. I mean I know sone guys who are absolutely annal about sharpening and do it every single time they us a cutting tool.. I do it when I notice things don't seem as sharp.. I notice I don't hesitate now to sharpen with th scary sharp but I rally delay sharpening when I need to drag out my Tormex..
(actually drag out is a misnomer) It sits on it's own stand with all the attachments underneath and all I need to do is drag off the dust cover and set up the rquired attachment..
I actually use mine to sharpen jointer blades but I don't sharpen my Planer blades..
When I sharpen those they aren't as sharp as the local printers supply places does and plane about 1/2 the wood before They are replaced.. not only that but I always wind up removing more blade than the printers supply place does.. so they get my 20 inch blades.
I've never had any luck at all sharpening my blades with those window foils: http://www.tormex.com.pl/01.php?ver=ang&s=
The wet slow grinder has pretty much worked a treat however: http://www.tormek.com
;-)
Like I mentioned, I use the Tormek to reshape and hollow grind more than leaving it at the Tormek. I use Shapton stones between grinds. Less hassle than SS for me.
I have looked under microscopes at edges most sharpening systems produce. Good results can be had by nearly any of them.
The main thing is for us each to find a system which produces the results desired. Beyond that, it doesn't matter to me what system a person uses. When one finds a system which produces the intended result so they can get back to work, that's what they need to use. All else is experimenting--which is fine too.
Sharpening threads can mere discussions or become religous wars, and everything between. My own opinion is people tend to seek out perfection in the edges beyond what is necessary for good work.
Take care, Mike
MIke,
What! I can't count on you for sharp debate? ;-)
You might have me nailed here. I seek perfection because my perfection seems to be what I need to do to get the results acceptable to me..
I'm lazy, If a few minutes of sharpening makes the plane glide with a satisfying swoosh then that's all I do. If I can bash on my chisels and make a clean cut by shear force I'd probably accept that..
Now before you begin to assume that I am some zen guy of perfection please stop by and laugh at my attempts.. Perfection to me is merely something others won't laugh at, I'm decades away from something others admire..
Ah, no worries. We're all somewhere between unacceptably dull and what we believe is acceptably sharp. It's our definitions and methods which often differ.
Hang out with a professional maker who uses planes and other edge tools a lot and I think you'll see little time spent steel to stone, and occassional regrinding. It's not that there isn't care in sharpening, but at some point down the sharpening road for a maker who depends on edge tools there is an efficiency of the honing process which increases. Perfection in sharpening is set aside. But again, there is care taken which belies the time spent.
Take care, Mike
PS--I liked the pun...
What is this about using the tools on wood? I thought the whole idea was the sharpening. Using it on wood destroys the beautiful edge. I guess I missed the whole point of the activity. :-).
:-)
I know. Terrible waste of both wood and steel when one can purchase something for so little from Ikea or Dania and save all that time after getting a great edge by non-use...
On a more on-topic note...I was in the shop hacking up a bunch of brass and thinking about this thread as relates to the professional makers I know and the people for whom don't make their living working wood.
There are a few things which stand out to me. And one of them isn't the quality of the work. I know people for whom this thing is a hobby who do better work than I ever have and most of the professionals I know. Nope. That isn't it.
But there are basically three things I have observed that those more immersed in woodworking do. [1] more considerate layout. [2] more accurate cutting [whether hand or machine]. [3] less time sharpening while doing #2.
Well, enough BS for the day. Still have a bunch of steel to process tonight.
Take care, Mike
I've enjoyed this discussion and see the truth in each perspective--I tried most all the methods and ended up with the one most comfortable and efficient for me (Tormek followed by 4000/8000 waterstones, and waterstones for touch-up).
In my search I was reluctant to shell out the $$$ for a new Tormek, and I'd suggest that a good used Tormek is the way to go. From the posts, a lot of woodworkers try the Tormek but move on to other methods. That means a good supply of used Tormeks exists. I got mine (along with a 10 chisel set of Two Cherries) for a bit over $200 on ebay. Just make sure you have a proven seller with a fair return policy.
With all that's been taught on sharpening there's a good path to sharp for anyone. I recall Tage Frid used a belt sander and a buffing wheel for his chisels. . .
Robert
I don't know what the "correct" sharpening angle is for an ax, or a lawnmower blade, but I do have enough experience to know these are totally different beasts than woodworking tools. You would not want a shallow razor edge on them. Cutting properties aside, they'd chip and dull right away.
I bought the Jet Wet Grinder. Brought it home,watched the DVD, set the machine up and spent several hours using it.The drive line is not running true. At first it looked like the grinding wheel was out of round, slightly bobbing up and down relative to the tool rest. But I see the same effect in the honing wheel too (with or without the grinding wheel on). Behind the honing wheel, the drive wheel is not making even contact with the motor shaft. Turning it with my hand, some places it's tight, some places it's loose. This unevenness seems to be transferred to the sharpening wheels.I'm thinking maybe the drive wheel is out of round, or the drive shaft is not straight, or the drive shaft bearings aren't right. If there's not a simple fix, I want a refund or replacement. I can't see this working if both sharpening wheels are constantly moving toward or away from the tool. I'm wondering if problems like this tend to develop, over time, in a lot of wet grinders. That might account for the big variations in reviews. Some people report great results, others can never get a truly sharp edge.
I just saw this post. have you used the machine enough that the diameter of the wheel is drastically different than that of a new wheel? As the wheel's circumference is decreased the cutting efficiency will exponentially decrease too. This is a result of less surface area of the stone crossing the blade per revolution. Jet's new slow speed grinder has "a variable speed control to maintain optimum outer wheel speed as the diameter of the stone decreases due to wear."
While it is true a used wheel when it loses significant diameter it cuts slower, the revolutions have not much to do with it. The Jet's variable speed, while it can compensate for SFM loss due to diameter, is really only useful for changing the cutting dynamics.
The Tormek's loss of cutting has more to do with the binder density in the inner portions of the wheel. As the Jet is a new product, it is unkown whether the life of the wheel and its cutting dynamics over time will be better, the same, or worse than the Tormek's wheel.
The link shows how low I take a Tormek wheel. While the cutting loss is noticable, it is not remarkable.
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/tormek_0001.jpg
Basically, once I need to shim the water tank up in order to have the surface of the water hit the surface of the wheel, that's when it's time for a new wheel. I use the thing hard. That is another area that is an unkown with the Jet--will it hold up to hard, continuous use? I'll probably purchase one. Hope it will not be a mistake.
Take care, Mike
Mike,I haven't read all that has been posted in this thread, but I would like to say the following about the TORMEK.I bought my Tormek several years ago because of the quality of the machine and because of all the attachments which were available for it. It came with a very good manual and video as well. Granted everything has value, some more than others which distills down to what we must pay for what we want. But if we research our purchase beforehand, and understand our present and future needs, we usually can make an intelligent choice which we will not regret later on.That's one way of looking at this. The other is what is this machine going to do for me? I quickly saw that it would save me time AND money. For instance, I don't know how many times I have seen someone in these forums (and others) go on about having to sharpen/re-sharpen this or that. My main reason for purchasing the TORMEK, was to sharpen my jointer and planer blades, my wood carving gouges, and my hand plane irons. And not so importantly to me, it has also come to the rescue of the usual garden tools that need some occasional tuning. Sharpening jointer or planer blades takes very little time and effort on a TORMEK. And it goes without saying that sharp tools are superior to anything less. They'e safer as well.The TORMEK has served all my needs and done so very well. And from looking at your photograph, it appears that they are made to last as well.Regards,
Phillip
In my experience no one system meets all my needs. My tendency to favor lines of least resistence have brought me to a combination:
I love my Tormek, and find it produces excellent results in all I ask of it. However, its effective use for blades other than straightforward chisels and plane irons can take some practice. It is also not my first choice for "on the fly" rehoning in my shop, as I find stones much more convenient for this task. The Tormek could do it, but I’d have to stop and set things up (fill the water tray, mount the appropriate jig, set the angle, perhaps true the stone, etc).
I also happen to have a slow speed grinder, which is nice for wholesale grinding jobs like reshaping a chisel to skew; converting an old gouge from IC to OC; or taking down the side bevels on the last two inches of chisel to optimize it for dovetailing.
For initial flattening backs or minor edge shaping jobs, the large coarse/extra coarse DMT stone is my choice.
For day to day sharpening and re-honing, the Norton waterstones are my favorite (1000, 4000, 8000 initially, and just 4000 and 8000 or 8000 alone for touch-ups). With the eclipse style jig, slight cambers on plane irons are also easy to impart with these stones.
For gouges and carving chisels, waterstones, including slips and cones are best for day to day, and the Tormek for major resharpenings.
I acquired all these different systems over many years as I pursued the best. I’ve come to realize, there, for me at least, there is no one "best" and indeed, the combination allows me to take advantage of the strengths of each (again for me) where appropriate.
I've read most of the posts and other than "preferred methods" I have not heard anyone knock the Tormek.
I'm just wondering - Isn't the Tormek sort of like your table saw? - in that - It really lies in the users willingness to learn all of the variables and nuances before they are really getting a feel for what it can do?Like my band saw- it took me a few years to get the hang of my Tormek- Yep, It works right out of the box- but so did the band saw. I was not getting the results I desired until I invested the time to learn all the ins and outs.I can only vouch for the thing if your willing to tackle the learning curve that comes with it.Dave
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