Replies

1. 
   VomSorb | Feb 11, 2005 01:28am | #1

   Yes, carving will be involved.

   Check out http://www.sapfm.org.

    

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 12, 2005 06:02am | #10

   Cstan,

   Thanks for the pointer to SAPFM.  I joined SAPFM a year or so ago because they had some articles on carving Newport shells in their annual.  I notice that they are going to post a story on building a Newport Chest but it's not active yet.  The webmeister told me it should be up in about a month.

   Thanks for your note.

   Mike (BernieB)

2. 
   jazzdogg | Feb 13, 2005 06:21am | #18

   Thanks for posting the website link!Did you notice the e-interview of Knots regular Rob Millard?-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

2. 
   AlanTurner | Feb 11, 2005 12:45pm | #2

   Mike,

   Here is link to another way to approach the cockbeading.
   http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11542
   Note that on these pieces, the sliding DT is about 19 degrees, which puts the miter corner right at the edge of the 3/16" cockbead, which is where it should be.

   Here is a link to some progress pix.
   http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13854

   It is not too late to reconsider the drawer slides. I can't imagine that Townsend would have used them. Even if of excellent quality, they will wear out over time, but a piece such as this will last at least several hundred years. Similar slides will likely be unavailable at that future time.

   Please take these comments in the spirit they are intended (which is helpful). Esp. for someone with so few years in the craft, you're doing an excellent job!

   Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 11, 2005 09:32pm | #6

   Alan,

   Thanks for the pointer to the progress pictures.  I'm going to study them closely. 

   I'll think about your comment on the slides.  Of course, wood slides will wear out also - but I suppose that can be repaired fairly easily by any good craftsman.

   Mike

1. 
   WillGeorge | Feb 13, 2005 09:11pm | #23

   wood slides will wear out ??

   Use Hickory and the drawers wear out first!

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 14, 2005 04:34am | #25

   Will George,

   You're right.  Alan Turner made the same point to me in a private e-mail.

   Thanks for your note.

   Mike (BernieB)

3. 
   WillGeorge | Feb 11, 2005 02:18pm | #3

   I would think it's about time your "Princess in Training" learned how to CARVE!

   Dang, sure wish I could carve but I always mess it up somehow...

   I wonder if the museum would let you take a mold of those 'shells?'.... LOL

   By the way, nice work you got there....

   I have grand children but for some reason could never let them use the power tools.
   I know how much they want to try, BUT...

   When I was a kid I had to sneak into grandpa's shop to try his power tools..  But alas, I never found ANY power tools!

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 11, 2005 09:42pm | #7

   Will George,

   The Princess want through a phase where she wanted to be in the shop all the time but now is not so interested - she went on to other interests. 

   There's actually a bunch of places where you can get drawings of the Newport shells.  The Society of American Period Furniture Makers did an article in one of their annuals and the Gottshall book has information also.  Nora Hall even did a video of "Carving the Newport Shell" and makes a plaster mold available to work from.

   I'm not that experienced a carver so I'll make one or two shells before I try for the real thing.

   Have you tried to teach your grandchildren how to build things with hand tools?  And maybe done the power tool work for them?

   Mike (BernieB)

4. 
   joinerswork | Feb 11, 2005 05:09pm | #4

   Bernie,

   You will have to do a lot of carving on the front moldings.  If you can come up with a cutter, or series of cutters for your router (or shaper), you can use them to make the end molds, and also to cut the two flats on the outer "blocks" on the front mold. 

   Alternatively, you may be able to find a molding plane that comes close to the shape you are looking for, or a pair of hollow/round planes.  Run a rabbet to establish the transition between the cove and scotia portions of the ogee, and work to it from each edge with a hollow, and a round, plane.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 11, 2005 09:28pm | #5

   Thanks, Ray.  I had though of the molding plane but haven't done much on it yet.  If I can find one that's close, I could probalby modify it to match the profile I want.  Molding planes are so plentyful that I won't feel like I'm destroying some history if I change the profile.  No matter what I use, as you comment, I will have to hand carve some of the front molding - just can't see any other way.

   I thought of having a set of shaper blades custom made for the top molding but maybe I can find a set of router blades that will work.  The cove on the top molding is the profile I can't find yet.  Custom shaper blades would be a lot of money for a few feet of molding.

    I've been looking at different router company's thumbnail profile (for the top, not the top molding) but haven't found anything that's exactly what I want yet.

   I've done a lot of research and found a comment that good Newport cabinetmakers (Townsend/Goddard family) would take about a month to do a kneehole desk, which is more complex than my chest of drawers.  It's just amazing to me that they could work so fast and with only hand tools.

   Thanks for your suggestions and comments.

   Mike (BernieB)

5. 
   stephengaal | Feb 12, 2005 04:32am | #8

   Bernie B:

   Congratulations on tackling this project at this stage. No guts,no glory! I am truly impressed. I don't know where you are located but there is a very talented furniture maker here in NH named David Lamb who has just completed a commissioned piece similar to yours. He will be teaching a class on this piece with an emphasis on carving at Tom McLaughlin's school in Canterbury, NH.

   see http://www.mclaughlinwoods.com

   Stephen J. Gaal

    

    

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 12, 2005 05:58am | #9

   Stephen,

   Thanks for the pointer to David Lamb.  I wish I was able to take his course - I'm sure it would help me a lot.  I'm still very much a beginner, but I figure that I can learn.  Knowing that someone else built this chest gives me the assurance that there are solutions to the problems - all I have to do it find them.  People on the board have been very kind to offer advice to me about how to do different things.  Alan Turner, for example, told me how to cut the blockfronts so they all come out the same.  Others offered me advice about how to do the base molding.

   I'm sure that I will make a lot of mistakes, but I know that I'll learn a lot as I go.  Sure beats building wirlygigs.

   NH is a long ways from me - I live in Southern California (or, as we call it, Paradise).  I think there's more interest in period furniture on the east coast than there is out here in the west. 

   Thanks for your note.  Are you a builder of period furniture?

   Mike (BernieB) 

   Edited 2/11/2005 11:15 pm ET by BernieB

6. 
   TomS | Feb 12, 2005 07:05am | #11

   http://www.norahall.com/video6.shtml

   This is a pretty good video on carving those shells.  I saw one years ago with Mack Headley but I can't find that one any more. 

   That is a rather impressive project you have got there.  That is on my list of things to do--about into my 3rd year of retirement.  That's a way off but I'll be interesting in following your progress.

   TomS

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 12, 2005 07:24am | #12

   Tom,

   I have Nora Hall's video on carving the Newport Shell - and the plaster model.  I've been thinking about this project for a long time, collecting information as I've been able to.

   Doing this project is a real stretch for me but... Throughout my life I've found that when I tackle something that's beyond me, I find help in unexpected places.  Maybe it's because I'm looking for the help, or maybe it's something else.  But so far, it's worked for me.

   Mike (BernieB)

7. 
   hammer1 | Feb 12, 2005 11:32pm | #13

   I took a few pictures at Winterthur you may find interesting. I think the Secretary was attributed to Goddard. "American Furniture of the Eighteenth Century", History, Technique and Structure by Jeffery P. Greene is a nice reference source. There are some exploded drawings but no measurements. He includes a chapter on figuring measurements from photographs.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

   
1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 13, 2005 02:54am | #15

   Hammer,

   Thanks for the pictures.  I'll use them when as guides when I start carving.  I'll also check out the Greene book you mentioned.

   I envy your east coast location for its access to the museums with period furniture.  Seeing it in person, instead of a picture, would really help when building a piece.

   Mike (BernieB)

8. 
   cicero | Feb 13, 2005 12:37am | #14

   I am sure that if it can be done here in NZ that you will be able to get router bits cut to any shape you like at knife grinders.I just take a drawing along and bobs your uncle.

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 13, 2005 03:05am | #16

   Cicero,

   Thanks for your note.  There's no problem getting shaper cutters made - just the cost.  Thinking just of the molding around the top, about seven feet of molding is needed.  Even if I made 25 feet to be sure I had enough, the cost per foot would be very high when the cost of making the cutters was included.  If I knew that I could sell the shaper cutters to someone else after I completed the project I'd probably do it. 

   Alan Turner gave me some suggestions for how to work the molding by hand which I may only have to use for part of the molding.  For example, I may be able to find router bits that allow me to fabricate the lower portion of the molding and use his hand cut technique for the upper part.  He didn't suggest it but I may be able to fabricate the molding in two parts (cut from the same board, of course, to match color and grain) and apply it in sections.  I'll experiment to see what works.

   Mike (BernieB)

1. 
   cicero | Feb 13, 2005 03:36am | #17

   Quite so,thats the prob with one off jobs.

   Good luck,you certainly picked an easy one so early in the piece:-)

9. 
   jazzdogg | Feb 13, 2005 06:30am | #19

   Bernie,

   I just finished carving a Newport Shell in mahogany using Nora Hall's video and plaster cast to guide the way. It wasn't too difficult - just take the time to ensure all of your carving tools are suitably sharp cuz carving with dull tools is far more vexing than necessary or, in my case, tolerable.

   I'd suggest you carve a shell as a practice piece before you tackle your chest - and despite Nora Hall's advice that beginners learn to carve in basswood, I recommend your practice piece be from the same species you'll use for the final project.

   Please post picture of your progress! Good luck!

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 13, 2005 09:27am | #20

   Thanks for the pointers and the encouragement, Jazzdog.  I definitely planned to do at least one and maybe two practice shells before I carve the real thing.  I'm going to apply the convex shells so those are not so critical - if I screw up, I just throw it away (many shells on period furniture were applied, according to "Master Craftsmen of Newport").  But the concave shell is made into the actual drawer face so if I screw that up, it's toss the drawer front away.  The one good thing is that drawer is not blockfront so, if I have to throw it away, I won't have to try to cut a match blockfront on it.<!----><!---->

   Your comment abou<!----><!---->t k<!---->eeping my carving tools sharp is well taken.  I'm experienced in sharpening bench chisels and plane blades but not with carving tools.  What do you do after you sharpen them on maybe an 8,000 stone?  Do you hone them with carborundum paste on leather?  Or what?  I see some experts recommend honing with paste on wood to avoid rounding the edge.<!---->

   Your advice will be deeply appreciated.<!---->

   Mike (BernieB)<!---->

    

1. 
   jazzdogg | Feb 13, 2005 08:38pm | #22

   "What do you do after you sharpen them on maybe an 8,000 stone?"Mike,I use lots of sharpening methods - depending on the tool. Slipstones - both waterstones and oilstones - diamond paddles and a really handy retractable tapered diamond "steel" I bought at a sporting goods store, a cylindrical ceramic sharpening rod, abrasive paste applied to a piece of scrapwood that I've cut to match the profile of the chisel I'm sharpening, etc.In truth, once I've got the shape refined, it's mostly a matter of honing to maintain a razor-sharp edge; most of my day-to-day honing is done on 4,000- an 8,000-grit waterstones: after which, I go back to carving - no other voodoo or secret rituals are necessary - ha, ha.
   I know a few highly regarded furniture makers who adhere sandpaper to contoured sticks (e.g., dowels) and sand their shell profiles, rather than carve them, to achieve consistent contours that are evenly spaced.What ever you choose to do, have fun and enjoy the process!-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 14, 2005 04:33am | #24

   Okay, thanks.  I always hear that carvers do things to get their tools REALLY sharp but I couldn't figure what to do beyond the 8000 stone.

   Mike (BernieB)

10. 
    philip | Feb 13, 2005 11:52am | #21

    Hello BernieB,
    Yep, an ambitious project. Just a couple of observations:- F. Gottshall has written several books- I have one titled "Reproducing Antique Furniture". which will answer your questions on those mouldings- I think there is no getting away from some hand work to finish off those sharp corners.
    I do thousands of dovetails- I like to cut the tails first , and use them to mark out the sockets- then just use a non plunge router with straight bit to free hand remove waste-you get flat bottoms all to the same depth, and there is only a little paring and chopping. A back stop also gives you consistent thickness.
    Hope there is some one to appreciate your fine work!

11. 
    CPK | Feb 16, 2005 03:56pm | #26

    Mike, If you go to SAPFM's forum there are templates and patterns available to dues paying members ,they include a shell, moldings, bracket foot and a CD, these are for a Townsend chest/desk each pictured in the CD and  were made by Ron Patton. Go to Ron Pattons Templates in the forum and you can get in line to have them sent to you. Any other questions e-mail me, and I will see if I can help you.

    Curt

1. 
   MichaelHenderson | Feb 16, 2005 06:52pm | #27

   Curt,

   Thank you very much for the pointer - I'll check it out.  I am a member of the SAPFM. 

   Thanks again.

   Mike (BernieB)