I have built a maple table with alot of figure (tiger, curly) and have read about the advantages of using a dye stain to “pop” the grain. I want to give it a go, but haven’t used a dye stain before. My local woodcraft sells Transtint brand dyes, and I see Jeff Jewitt also recommends them on his website.
And the question is…….:
What is the best way to apply the dye? I have a hvlp system, or is brushing, wiping, etc…. best for this application? Do I apply it, and wipe off the excess, like a stain, or do I just let it soak in and dry?? Also, should I use the stuff dissolved in water, or in alcohol?
Your guidance is much appreciated.
Walnutz
Replies
You certainly can mix with alcohol and spray, but for this application I would mix with water and apply with a sponge or rag. Wipe off excess. But the key to making this work to "pop" grain is that once dry, you sand the surface. The hard dense parts of the wood will have absorbed dye less deeply compared to where the figure as swirled to the surface. Sanding removes the dye on the surface leaving the deeper dye, providing emphasis to the figure. This will be a dilute solution of dye, bye the way.
You really need to experiment with this on a substantial scrap to see if you get the look you want. In particular consider whether you can sand evenly, a particular problem if you have a bunch of visible inside corners. For the test to be meaningful, make sure you apply a coat of your top coat over it. Until dye is top coated it can look awful. Once you have worked out the strength of the dye on scrap you can use it on the table. To simulate how it will look under the top coat, after it has dried, wet it with mineral spirits or naptha. Until you apply the first coat of top coat it is easy to change or correct and very difficult afterwards.
If you have a sanding problemy you may want to just pop the grain with boiled linseed oil and forego the dye technique. You can also mix a few drops of dye into the first coat of a top coat to increase the effect on grain popping.
Steve
Thanks for your reply. I need to use the dye to achieve the desired color, Dark Vintage Maple, so BLO is out of the question here. You stated the neccessity of sanding AFTER the dye is finished. The top is hand planed with a smoother. I guess I'll pre-wet and sand to 220 {all the planing down the drain :)} before I use a water based transtint. What do you think I should sand to after the dye has dried? 220, 340, etc.......Hand sanding, or ROS???
Also, you mentioned a diluted solution. J Jewitt's site recommends 1 oz. per pint of water. What would you recommend. The table is a cocktail table, 24" X 48", with a 3 1/2" apron, so I don't need a gallon of the stuff. I was hoping to mix up about a pint. (Sounds like a good Ale).
BTW, top coat will be several coats of Crystalac super premium. It's water based, in case you're not familiar.
Thanks for your help.
Jeff
An ounce per pint is way, way too much. Using the liquid TranTint, 1 ounce makes a "normal" strength dye in about 1 quart of water. For this I would go a lot less, maybe 1/4 - 1/3 ounce in a quart. Each wood reacts a bit differently, so you definately have to experiment.
I would use no coarser than 220, with 320 being a more forgiving. You aren't running through a whole series of grits here, just working gently on the surface. I would definately sand this by hand. You need to see what you are doing as you do it, not after.
I would apply one coat of DEWAXED shellac (SealCoat or dewaxed that you mix from flakes) to seal the dye so that there are no problems with it bleeding into the waterborne finish.
Thanks for the help, again. For the sealer coat of shellac, what type of shellac would you use, and what strength would you use it at. Shellac is another finish that I just have had no luck with, as I think, in the past, I was using it right out of the can, not knowing that I needed to thin it. I always had ridges because I would brush it on, and it would dry darn near instantly, and I could never keep a wet edge.
Now, I think I'll spray it on, and hopefully have better luck with a few test boards before the dress rehearsal on my table top. How thin do you have your shellac when you spray it.
Again, thanks a million. I'm looking forward to seeing how this all works out.
Walnutz
Edited 2/9/2007 11:49 pm ET by Walnutz
Walnutz, Your planing is not down the drain. The top will always be flatter than it would have been if you had worked it with a 4 grit sanding process. Just think of all the dust you avoided by planing the top in lieu of sanding. One run over it with 220 is a piece of cake. Besides the planed surface will grain raise much less than a thoroughly sanded suface.Ron
Thanks, Ron. It was pretty much stated tongue in cheek with a smile.
Walnutz
Interesting. I've never sanded the surface after applying the dye. I might have to try that on a piece of scrap and see if I like it. I know that for me just spraying on a light coat of dye can dramatically pop figured Maple. There must be some optics in play there because I once didn't apply any dye until after I already had a sealer coat on and it still popped the figure quite a bit.
BTW, have you ever played around with mixing with both water and alcohol? Both will fully absorb the other. When I first got my current job six years ago I inherited a bunch of cans of some powdered dyes. Mostly water-soluable with one or two being labled as alcohol-soluable. Just for kicks I decided to see if I could dissolve the water dye in alcohol. It dissolved, but not 100%. So then I tried mixing it with just a small amount of water and then thinned that down a bunch with alcohol and it seemed to perform the same as the alcohol-soluable dyes.
Seems to me that it should be possible to mix and match to manipulate the way the dye behaves on the actual wood.
I personally prefer using Sherwin Williams' universal dyes. They can be reduced with a half dozen or so different solvents - water, acetone and a variety of alcohols/glycols.
Steve
I hope you don't mind me re-opening this thread with you. I have made some test boards, and the dye has gone on without issue. Exact look that I was trying to achieve.
My problem, however, is with the shellac. I have always had a problem brushing on shellac, and getting ridges. This time, I bought the Zinser stuff that comes in the aerosol can. I saw it in the new FWW mag, and my local paint store carries it. I have an hvlp system, but since this was ready to go, I tried it. When I applied it over the dye, it has dried with some "ridge-like" concentrations in various places. It's hard to describe, but there are a few areas where the shellac didn't flatten out, and has very slight built up concentrations that are unsightly. What am I doing wrong? And, how do I fix it? Can I rub a cloth with alcohol over this area to redisolve and spread it out? I am running out of time with this table, as I have a Feb. 25 deadline. If I can't get the test boards right, there's no way I can use this technique on the finished table. Any rescue you can provide is certainly appreciated.
Walnutz
I would address the thick spots by sanding. Trying to re-amalagmate the shellac to smooth it out can be tricky, and could lead to worse problems.
I haven't used the Zinnser spray shellac, but the usual admonitions apply, with the caution that areosol cans lack a bit of precision. Never start or stop the spray over the surface, make sure each pass overlaps an even amount, experiment to find the ideal combination of distance and speed.
Also you can't expect any finish to be entirely ready to go directly out of the spray can. There is always some smoothing and rubbing out to do.
Thanks for the lightning reply. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm gonna get this down well enough to use on this project. However, I am going to continue to practice, and switch to shellac flakes that I can control better with my hvlp. I love the way the grain pops with the dye.
As a secondary, can I use a "natural" tung oil varnish like General Finishes hand rubbed over the top of the dye instead of shellac. It is a product that I'm used to using with good results. It's simple, and fast, and I know what to expect. My shellacing is going to require alot of refinement before committing it to a project piece.
Thanks for all the help.
Walnutz
Sure, that will work just fine.
Walnutz,
The answer to your question depends a lot on your method of application.
Water based dyes are a little more user friendly if you plan to apply by hand (brush or wipe-on). The tend to dry a little slower. Water based dyes can be applied by spray gun as well.
The alcohol based dyes dry a bit faster than the water based, so if you are not careful, you can get lap marks and darker areas if you apply these by hand. These seem to be best applied by spray methods.
Water based dyes will raise the grain so it is best to pre-wet the wood with water first (some people recommend distilled water), let dry and then sand 1 additional time before you stain. This is not necessary with the alcohol based as they do not raise the grain significantly.
Personally, I find the water based a little easier to work with. I flood the dye onto the wood, and then wipe the excess off. Large areas can be done at a time with consistent results. Also, water is cheaper than denatured alcohol, so your dye will be less expensive to mix. This works well if you buy a few colors to experiment with.
Good luck,
Lee
Walnutz,
I've used several different shades of the Trans Tints, on maple, and my favorite is Dark Vintage Maple. I used to use other brands with great success, but for some reason the Dark Vintage Maple, gives an excellent color, and grain enhancement without having to apply one coat, sand and apply another coat.
I've applied it by rag and spray, with equally good results. I do wipe up the excess.
On my website at the link below, you can see an article on a curly maple chest on frame I made, where I describe the finishing process.
Rob Millard
http://americanfederalperiod.com/detailed_construction_articles.htm
Rob
Thanks for the reply. That is the exact color that I wish to use, Dark Vintage Maple. I had no idea that I would run into such a potential disaster with a dye that some are describing. I guess I need to see if I have a large enough scrap of this maple laying around, as the figure is high.
As another question along this line, I plan on inlaying a different species near the perimeter. I was planning on doing this AFTER the dye process is complete to avoid having seepage into the other species. I will be routing out the dado for the inlay with a router plane, and finishing the corners with a chisel, blah, blah, ...... Would you say in your experience that it would be best to do this after the tabletop is dyed.
Thanks for your help.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
I hope I did not give the impression that dyes are difficult to use, because they are not. They are far superior to any stain.
A sample board is a good idea, even if you've done the process before and essential for a first try. I take my thick scraps and resaw them into thin pieces, to give me more sample material to work with.
On the inlaying, I've heard of people saying they color first and inlay after, but I'm not sure that is a good approach; it would be very difficult ( nearly impossible really) to get the inlay flush without sanding off the dye.
I build a lot of inlaid furniture and I do all the inlays, and then apply the finish. I just apply a couple of coats of Deft brushing lacquer to seal the inlays. I happen to have very good up close eyesight, so this is easy for me. I do not have a real steady hand, but that doesn't seem to hold me back. The trick is to match the brush size to the inlay. It also helps to extend your pinky and let it ride on the surface, much like a pin striper would do.
Of course if you plan on using some kind of polyurethane finish or oil finish, this brushing lacquer sealer won't work. The other option is to use a black inlay that won't require a sealer.
With a water dye on an inlaid surface, it works best if you spray the dye on in nearly dry coats, to help control seepage. It also helps to use PVA glue to install the inlay, as this will help prevent any seepage.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob, and all who replied:
Thanks for all the help. I now have a good idea of what to do.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
I find it easier to remember: two tablespoons in an ounce, three teaspoons to a tablespoon. ...or 6 teaspoons to an ounce... this helps with the goesinsta calculations.
Since we are on the subject of transtint dyes, here are some color swatches I saved on my pc for future reference.
They may come in handy for someone contemplating use of the transtint brand. They were originally found on the joewoodworker web site (veneersupplies.com)
FYI - he has the best prices on the transtint dyes I have found on the net.
Lee
Great advice here regarding transTint.
I would like to add that wiping isn't recommenced because it can cause blotching, especially in Cherry and Maple. I'd just spray it on and let it dry.
Spraying dye is different than applying by rag. If you spray dye the goal is even coloration by applying it evenly. Wiping could affect the evenness of the dye.
But if you use a rag or sponge the goal is essentially saturation with the darkness determined by the concentration of the solution not how evenly it is applied. Wiping off excess is recommended in that situation to eliminate puddles on the surface that would be blotchy if they dried without wiping.
Edited 2/10/2007 5:03 pm ET by SteveSchoene
There is some good info here on TransTint dyes. I would suggest a whole lot of practice before committing to your work. This means practicing the entire finish schedule with the products you will use. Dyes are a bit different than oil based stains, they can raise grain, bleed into finish coats and cause blotchy-ness.
http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Yes, using dyes is different from using an oil based pigmented stain. I find dye easier to use. I find the clarity of dye to be so valuable that it's worth the time experimenting with it.
The darkness of dyed wood depends largely upon how concentrated you mix the solution. Consequently, best results with water based dye are from "flooding" the surface with dye, and wiping off excess. You do need to avoid splashing the dye around so that dye has a chance to start to dry before being covered with wet dye. That can lead to spots or runs that are a challenge to eliminate, but are not that difficult to avoid to begin with. Otherwise, dyes "blotch" much less than oil based stains on woods such as maple or cherry.
Raised grain isn't very hard to deal with. I usually sand it off after a wash coat of shellac.
To use waterborne top coats over a waterbased dye it is best to apply a coat of shellac to prevent bleeding. Using shellac over alcohol based dye runs the same risk, but it can be minimized by spraying the first coat of shellac rather dry. Alcohol based dye almost has to be sprayed, so I assume the shellac would be too.
hammer
Great site! I bookmarked it, and will use the tips.
Thanks,
Walnutz
Based on some recent and interesting experience, may I add to the comment about practice. Small scraps give no feel to dealing with something like a table top. You might like to go through the finishinging routine, stain, fill topcoats - the lot, on the underside of the largest compoinent before assembly. Then you get a grip on just how much area you can cover in each step.
dave
This is a valuable observation, Patto. I've done a fair amount of this and my experience absolutely concurs with your observation and suggestion. There's only so much that a small sample can really tell the finisher. Mostly because of dry times for the various components going into the total finish job. It's one thing to wipe on a stain and then wipe off the excess on a 6"x6" sample piece. It's another thing altogether to wipe the same stain on a 6'x6' panel and then wipe it all off and come out with the same depth of color. The odds are pretty darn high that the sample is going to come out lighter and with less depth of color than the panel.
There are ways to compensate, but they require discipline. And color matching is an exercise in creativity not in discipline. When I do a small sample I have to try to replicate the time frame involved in applying the same finish to a much larger piece. With wipe stains that means that I walk away and try to let a couple minutes go by before coming back and wiping the stain. If I stand there looking at the piece it is often nearly impossible to resist wiping it too early.
Yeah well,
In spite of samples and practice, yesterday (Sunday) I sanded off the finish on my table top. It was sitting in the shed in almost the exact orientation with respect to the door between my kitchen and dining room - I pass this 20-odd times a day. every time i walked into the shed I could see some uneven coulour and I could not imagine doing this for the life of the table. I sat down and had lunch and then went out and sanded it off before I lost heart.
Got it back to 100 grit last night and will probably have another go by Wednesday. This is the bigest, most outstandingly grained piece I have done and I want it right.
have fun
Dave
This is the bigest, most outstandingly grained piece I have done and I want it right.
LOL - I can absolutely identify with that.
This may repeat some of the info you have been given by others but I'll pass this along anyway.
I love using transtint dye, followed by BLO, followed by sprayed shellac. First, the darkness of the color depends depends entirely upon the strength of the dilution. I use water. Start with weaker dilutions until you get the color you want. It is not alot of fun to sand your entire project because the color is too dark. (yes, I have done that). I like to spray the dye. Its easy and fast and gets all the nooks and crannies. Then, like somebody else mentioned, it looks terrible. Very dull and blotchy and ugly. But persevere. It looks alot better after BLO and then terrific after the shellac. I use amber and spray that as well. I have a tiger maple grandfather clock behind me as I write this finished as I just described and the figure and finish draw raves from anybody who comes into our home. Good luck. PMM
I've got a few jobs replacing built-in buffets, or portions thereof, in approx. 100 year old houses. And I'll have to match the coloring of 100 year old oak. I recently talked with someone who has been matching similar wood and has 25 years experience.
He suggested starting by using a couple of standard stains, jacobean or golden oak, mixed to approximate the color as much as possible, then mixing trans tint with the finsihing poly to "sneak up" on the exact color.
He said "brown" trans tint and I now see there are several types of brown.
Has anyone done this, and what brown did you use? I realize the wood colors I have to match are very particular to the area/house. But I'm looking for any further advice on this process.
I haven't mixed stains with transtint or poly. The brown I have used is "medium brown." It can be light brown if using a weak solution or dark brown with strong. You can mix transtint dyes as well. Another thought is using the diffenent tones of shellac to get closer to your color: amber, garnet, whatever. That is the beauty of shellac. PMM
BoardmanWI,
There was a routine last year(FWW) that was kinda the opposite for the A&C look. Dark brown Transtint followed by shellac and then Jacobean gel stain to create that grunge in the corners look. Finally toped with varnish.
I see that nobody chimed in with a response here so I will.
The advice you were given - regular wipe stain to get most of the way there and then dye to get the rest of the way - is my favorite way of color matching for most circumstances. I use a different brand of dye though and it only has one brown. So I can't really recommend any particular Transtint brown. But the principles will be the same.
What you need to do is be as discerning of any kind of difference in color as you can. Get as close as you can with the wipe stain and then use good natural light to examine your sample side-by-side with what you are trying to match. Write up a list of every difference that you can see between the two, even if it seems like a very subtle difference. Then using that same list compare your wipe stain sample with color swatches of the dye options and you should be able to figure out which one (or perhaps a combination) of the dyes is going to work best for you.
Keep in mind that you're going to want some of the poly or something comparable on your samples at every step of the way. Dry stain on uncoated wood looks very different than it will under a clear finish. And sheen is important too. Whatever you use on the samples you want to make sure it's the same sheen as the finished product will be getting. Gloss brings out warm tones and low gloss brings out cool tones in colors, even on the exact same stain on the same piece of wood.
Just to make things interesting here... there's a potential twist on this approach. Normally you'd either put the dye down first and then the wipe stain over that or do it the other way around, using the dye as a toner. But with solvent-based wipe stains you can add the dye to the wipe stain itself and tweak the color that way. Or at least I can with SW dyes. From what I've read about Transtint you should be able to use it the same way. You'll need to add approximately 10% by volumn of whatever the primary solvent is in Transtint, adjusting as necessary if you end up adding tons of dye. This will keep the dye from settling out in the wipe stain so that it stays mixed in properly
Edited 2/17/2007 2:01 am by Kevin
Edited 2/17/2007 2:05 am by Kevin
Kevin - Thanks a lot for the info! Thus far I've done some experimenting mixing jacobean and golden oak and have come up with a good proportional mix there. I've been told dyes are pretty powerful (wear rubber gloves!) and am wondering how much to add. I've been mixing the stains im 'ml.' proportions. I like the option of dye IN the stain - seems better than relying on dye in the poly to alter the base stain color.
Thanks again.
Also - I assumed when you said a 10% solven dilution, you were talking about diluting the dye itself before adding it to the stain, or does it matter?
Also - I assumed when you said a 10% solven dilution, you were talking about diluting the dye itself before adding it to the stain, or does it matter?
No, it needs to 10% of the volumn of the stain. So if you have a gallon of stain, you need to add 10% of that volumn in the appropriate solvent to the stain. I don't recall off the top of my head what the exact solvent is with the SW dye but I believe it's a type of glycol. Which if you recall your layman's organic chemistry means that it's a type of alcohol since it ends in "ol".
Let's just call it glycol. Your formula would be: 1 gallon wipe stain + 1/10 gallon glycol solvent + your dye.
The dye counts against the volumn of the wipe stain for the purposes of this technique because the point of adding it to the wipe stain is to insure that the dye stays in suspension and the dye doesn't have enough of the appropriate solvent already in it to accomplish this task. So if you were to add a quart of dye to the gallon of wipe stain then you'd need to have 10% of 1.25 gallons in glycol ether. Which is why I'd said that you would need to adjust if you end up adding a ton of dye to the wipe stain.
That said... I need to stress that this is only good for solvent-based wipe stains. I have no idea if it would work in an oil stain, although I strongly doubt that it would without modification, if even then. It's more likely to work in a water-based wipe stain, although I suspect that there would be less of a need for this added solvent to keep the dye in suspension in water-based stain.
It's a formula that I was given by my old Sherwin Williams technical rep, Jai Braithwaite (the best damn Tech Rep in the business, bar none!) and was intended to be used to add Sherwin Williams Dye concentrates to M.L. Campbell WoodSong II wipe stain. But I see no reason why it wouldn't work the same with any similar solvent-based wipe stain. And by solvent-based stain I'm talking about Toluene/Xylene type wipe stains.
Edited 2/17/2007 10:47 am by Kevin
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