HI all,
I had budgeted for a table saw last year, it didnt happen – best laid plans and all of that; and have since been offerred a second hand euopean combination machine. It is eastern euopean and heavy!!
Rough details are it has a 10″ saw, planer and jointer (plus spindle moulder and horisontal morticer). The saw fence is a tiny little thing, but you can use the jointer fence for larger cuts. It has a small sliding table, but it really is a round plate rather than a rectangular table. There is only one slot in the table, and it looks to be 3/4 * 1/4.
Price has not been discussed, but the real benefit that I can see is the jointer and planer, which had not been part of the initial plan but would reduce my current total dependency on paying for this work to bring stock to size (I am happy to joint by hand – no big deal at my production rate).
I am a hobbyist, with no intention of production speed work. I do like tools to do the task well, and I am interested in repeatable settings. Most of my projects are cabinets, boxes, and I will need to do a set of chairs this year.
Any comments on this type of tool and traps for the unwary? I am relatively inexperienced with large machines for wood, although have spent some time in a metal shop.
Replies
Hi Patto... What brand is the machine?? If it is a Felder, do a Google search for the Felder list. There is a large active community of Felder users out there on the web. Many of these large machines are three phase electric so that brings up another whole problem or discussion. You may have to do some serious re-wiring of your shop if you need three phase. Check with your power company or start researching power inverters. SawdustSteve
thanks for the response,
The machine is a Robland of uncertain vintage, probably about 15 years old. it was originally prurchsed as a backup for a kitchen shop, so the saw has been well used but not the planer or jointer. The whole lot has been sitting in a shed for couple of years. It seems similar to the one reviewed by o'malley here:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00131.asp
Except it still has the original fence, and my recollection of the sliding table is that it is smaller and has less travel.
Power is a bit of a problem subject to further investigation. The motor has wiring instructions for 240 and 420, but I will need to see a competent EM to check this bit. I have to wire the new shed anyway (currently only two bulbs and one powerpoint off the lighting circuit) so now is the time to decide on the power supply requirement, the marginal cost will be smaller than doing it later. All my current stuff is single phase (240v 50Hz). I really cant justify the cost of heavy 3 phase tools - this is a hobby and I can always work slowly or send out big stuff. eg. wide planing.
My real want for the planer is that my new wood supplier (check out Raffan's new book) is not always available when you need him. And, I want to be able to prep thin stock at home. This is clearly a 'want' not a 'need', but when this tool became available it seemed like a good idea to examine it.
Hi Patto,I bought a second-hand MiniMax combo unit about 18 months ago, and am happy with the unit (about 1987 mfg). In my case, the jointer had been heavily used (Northern Beaches of Sydney), but not the saw or spindle moulder.I tracked down the local supplier and had them recondition the unit back to use - works beautifully - I'm doing small jobs with it about weekly.I'd say go for it, if the price is right. The plate on the machine should give you the actual voltage of the motors that are installed - if the plug isn't easily visible, that is.Cheers,eddie
Edited 1/11/2005 4:17 am ET by eddie (aust)
HI Patto,If the motor plate has a wiring schematic for 240V and 440V, then it's probably a 3Ø machine. While a rotory converter is an alternative, it's probably not worth the cost for one machine.However, if you are rewiring your shop anyway, check with your power company for the cost of having 3Ø power added to your service. I did this recently for my own shop. The additional cost of 3Ø power was about the same as a large converter, and it increased the value and versitility of the shop.Tom
Thanks for the input, I thought that I would post my decision on the off chance anyoone else is going through a similar process.
The tool was built in 1986 by Robland in Belguim and is a pretty heay piece of kit. Although it was a backup tool in a cabinet shop, they used mainly sheet goods so the saw was the only part that had seen heavy use. The current owner uses the thicknesser because the blades are much cheaper to sharpen than on his 'good' machine. He was moving it on because he has been a bit of a bower bird with used machienery and had run out of floor space. (good level of trust built up over 30 years)
It took about 2 weeks to get any real response from Robland after taking several photos of the accessories and machine. Robland holds no spare pars for a machine this age, and their newer 300mm machines are not compatible.
I dont really expect to wear any quality machine out (I am a hobby worker and look after my tools) But lack of spares worried me. I also could not replace the missing mitre fence.
The motors are set up for 3 phase power, and I am not prepared to put that into the shed. Robland do not hold suitable single phase motors, and I would have had to locate suitable motors from another source.
The fence is an old style, skimpy and only secured at the leading end. So any pressure from such as a feather board would affect the track. There was also no facility for a blade guard (although it would not have been difficult to retrofit one integral with a new riving knife, this would have interferred with use of the spindle moulder if I had ever wanted to use one).
The height adjustment of the saw comprices a steel rod offset from the axis of the blade arm by about 40mm, and secured by twisting the handle as a clamp onto an area outside the case. Blade height adjustment seems to be a weakness on Roblans current models; but on this one any slop in the pinion at the back of the saw arm results in angling the blade as it is clamped. Before I tightened this joint the movement was a visible 2-3mm sow the capability to set the blade parallel with the sliding table and mitre slot was risky, dont even think about the fence. If you ignore the angle problem and fence, the blade ran nicely with little runout and produced a nice finish.
The jointer and planer worked well on about 20 boards of reclaimed Jarrah. I didnt muck about with the other functions. And the electrics seemed fine.
My original equipment plan had been to purchase a my first table saw for ripping and repeatable accurate mitre cuts that I have not been able to achieve on a band saw. I had considered that my hobby use and production rate did not really justify the "need' for a jointer or thicknesser because I am competent with planes for jointing for glue-ups and can send out most thicknessing. The only thicknessing task I really wanted was thin bits for inlay and boxes, and they are fun, not high on the furnishing the house priority list.
In all, this decision falls to the want / need problem. I dont actually need anything - my handtools are sufficient for anything except mouldings and I can make planes. I seemed to me that the risks of parts and motors etc were too high for the relatively 'cheap' entry cost to a jointer / thicknesser. And that the saw design with its height adjustment, alignment and fence issues would not produce the quality that I need (for personal satisfaction).
In the end, I will probably buy a saw at about the $1000 mark from one of our local suppliers (Carbatac or timbecon) who have both chinese and delta. and look at the jointer / thicknesser with next years tax cheque.
Thanks for your advice and assistance
That is a nicely done analysis on the machine. Thanks for following up and sharing the information. I think you saved yourself a big headache in the long run. I wish more folks would take the time to return the courtesy of the responders as you have. It gave this whole thread some real substance.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hello Patto,
As Steve said, What brand is the machine? MiniMax also has a website via Yahoo Groups, and an active community. If it's a MiniMax, someone will surely know all about it.
I recently bought a MiniMax combination machine, and while it's taken a little while to get use to the European way of woodworking, I think it's safer than the way I use to do things, and I saved money and work space as well.
Best of luck with your decision,
Tom
Patto:
I own a Robland X-31 combo machine of 2002 vintage. I have upgraded to the new fence system, and the custom made blade height adjuster, and purchased the custom made sliding table rail adjustment jigs, etc. Get the picture? There is a Yahoo Group for X-312 users. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoblandX-31/
It all depends on price. The 12" jointer on my machine is almost worth the price of admission. Setting the machine up is a bear. A user has put together a set of calibration and adjustment procedures that is on the Yahoo site.
Personally, if I had it to do over, I would buy a Delta or Powermatic Table saw, perhaps used, a used 12 " jointer, a great bandsaw like a Laguna Tools 16HD, a woodrat, and a portable planer. And it probably would have cost less. I have NEVER used the shaper. I used the mortiser until I got the wood rat, which is much easier to use accurately.
I encourage you to go to the yahoo site. There is a wealth of experience there.
Best wishes
Stephen J. Gaal
Stephen,
I would like to know more about the wood rat. Thanks,
Rod
I was away for a few days and just got back. e-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 603 284 7183 during business hours.Stephen J. Gaal
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