Replies

1. 
   bobpowers | Jan 26, 2005 12:52am | #1

   Depending on the size of the project, I use one of two methods with Tried and True Original or Varnish Oil. On a large project, such as a fairly sizeable table, I pour a small puddle on the surface, then use a window washer's squeegee to spread it out. On smaller projects, I apply it with a rag. In either case, spread it as thin as you can. Then spread it some more. More than you think you should. The end result is a beautiful finish. It's not easy, but it's worth the effort.

1. 
   bobpowers | Jan 26, 2005 03:25am | #3

   In my earlier reply, I forgot to say that I heat the Tried and True in a container under an infra-red lamp. I can't tell you to what temperature, but it's quite warm to the touch. As for rubbing it, yes, more is better. I also forgot to tell you that your shop smells great during the process.

2. 
   Pondfish | Jan 26, 2005 01:04am | #2

   All I've ever heard is that this product takes forever to dry.  I did see a FWW video on it, and the demonstrator advised lots of firm rubbing.  They didn't say, however, if this helped the finish dry faster.

    

3. 
   Rich14 | Jan 26, 2005 04:19am | #4

   Bob,

   No other finishing material generates as much "noise" here. Do a search.

   Half the contributors to any of the "heated discussions" swear by the stuff, the other half swear at it. The only thing that's certain is the variability of the product. I can tell which camp you're heading for.

   Rich

1. 
   bobpowers | Jan 26, 2005 05:28pm | #5

   I must admit that on occasion I wonder if I have some masochistic tendencies when it comes to finishes. In actuality, I usually use shellac.

1. 
   CharlieD | Jan 26, 2005 05:41pm | #6

   I can't get shellac to work for me! Every time I try to use it, I get a finish that's spotty and gritty and kind of gummy to the touch. To compensate I've thinned it a lot; no good. This happens sprayed or applied with a rag. Forget about french polishing...what am I doing wrong?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 26, 2005 06:49pm | #7

   Charlie,If your shellac is gummy (does not dry absolutely crystal-hard) it is old or the alcohol you are using has water in it.I always mix fresh shellac from flakes. I grind the flakes in a coffee grinder so that they disolve quickly, but unground flakes will disolve in less than 24 hours, especially if you heat the jar in a water bath.I use denatured alcohol. Almost any commonly available source (Ace, Home Depot) It is ethyl alcohol denatured with methyl alcohol. It usually says "for shellac" or something like that somewhere on the label. The important thing is that there is no water in it. (I believe they extract the final traces of water with benzene, not sure). If a container of alcohol is left open, it will eventually absorb water from the air.Usually 6 months is the longest that a mixture of shellac will last before its properties start to change and it starts to dry soft. Then it's useless and can't be restored. Mixed shellac never lasts more than a few days around here. The dry flakes, if stored away from light and humidity will last forever.Any of the Zinser products should give you no problem. They are pre-mixed cuts of shellac with additives to extend the shelf life. Just use before the expiration date.I spray my shellac. But most people brush it. Use a natural-bristle brush. The best and softest you can afford. You must work quickly to avoid lap marks and brush only one way, then leave it alone. If you don't use a sanding sealer, use a very dilute first coat (1# or 2# cut) as a sealer. The alcohol will raise the wood grain. Repeat. Then sand gently one grade finer than the last you used on the wood. If you are using shellac with wax in it, it will sand like a dream. But even de-waxed sands easily enough.Keep applying coats to your liking. No need to sand inbetween, but I do to level the film and the inevitible nubs. The final coat gets leveled with 400 grit/mineral spirits for lubricant. Then steel wool. I usually finish with lacquer, but the shellac can be taken to final polish with rubbing compound, then polishing compound, and except for alcohol resistance is as beautiful a finish as can be put on wood.Now french polish, that's a story for another day.Rich

   Edited 1/26/2005 11:12 am ET by Rich14

1. 
   CharlieD | Jan 27, 2005 02:07am | #14

   Zinnser with denatured is exactly what I was using. I'm excited to try your method.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

2. 
   douglas2cats | Jan 26, 2005 06:52pm | #8

   Charlie

   Are you using canned shellac or making your own with flakes ? I've also had some trouble in the past getting shellac (flakes) to look as good as I'd like. Don't think I've had as much problem as you with the "spotty and gritty and kind of gummy to the touch." issues, but not satisfactory. I also sprayed and used rags. Finally out of frustration, several years ago I decided to just use a regular natural bristle brush to see what would happen. I got a LOT better results with the brush than the other 2 methods.  Biggest issue with brushing seems to be keeping a wet edge.

    

    I love the smell of sawdust in the morning.

1. 
   CharlieD | Jan 27, 2005 02:09am | #15

   Hmm.sounds like I need a good brush. I'll give it a shot. I've been using canned; maybe I'll buy some flakes. What do you think--garnet, orange or blond?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

2. 
   douglas2cats | Jan 27, 2005 05:30pm | #18

   The good news with the flakes is that you're always gauranteed it's fresh. Plus you get more choices and can either buy dewaxed versions of the flakes or dewax yourself after mixing. Shellac's got a relatively short shelf life and the premixed canned stuff can occasionally be too old. That being said, I've heard so many good things lately about the Zinser Seal Coat (canned dewaxed blond or superblond I think), that once my blond flakes run out, I think I'm going to start trying that instead. Just avoids the added steps of measuring/mixing and waiting for the flakes to dissolve. I can't help you much with the garnet vs orange question. So far all my shellac usage has been in combination with other things so I've stuck to the superblonde and relied on the other things to set the overall tone.I love the smell of sawdust in the morning.

3. 
   bobpowers | Jan 26, 2005 08:16pm | #9

   Charlie,I'm sure that one or more of the other responses to your comments about shellac is correct. I used flakes for years, but recently have switched to Zinsser (sp?), also called Bullseye. Just look at the bottom of the can for the date and compare it with the shelf life indicated on the label.I break the rules so far as the applicator is concerned. I use foam brushes, even though it typically says on the handle "Not for use with shellac or lacquer." As is the case with any quick drying finish, you have to move quickly to maintain a wet edge, and the foam brushes will leave a track at the edge of a stroke if you aren't careful. I've used them for many years with good results.

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 26, 2005 10:26pm | #10

   Bob,

   My foam brushes melt in the alcohol!

   Rich

2. 
   scooter1 | Jan 26, 2005 10:38pm | #11

   Are you guys serious? A "tried and true" finish that takes a week to cure? This sounds like a disaster. The finish would be marred with dust nibs, fingerprints, and the like. I'd rename it to "Tried and failed" finish.Add some Japan Dryer to it, or pick another finish. Minwax Antique Oil is my favorite oil finish, but Shellac for me is the best.Regards,
   Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

3. 
   JulienBoivin | Jan 27, 2005 12:17am | #12

   I completely agree on the MINWAX Antique Oil.  Amazingly simple and almost impossible to screw up, I apply with foam inside a rag and am happy every time.  Looks amazing on mahogany.

   Julien

4. 
   bobpowers | Jan 27, 2005 02:17am | #16

   Dear Boris,I have never had Tried and True take a week to dry. It re-coats in a day if you follow directions. My opinion is that the directions are not as complete as they should be, but be that as it may, put on very, very, very thin coats of well heated finish, and you will like it. Also, keep in mind that this is an oil finish, and there are never any dust nibs, fingerprints, etc. in it.Regards,Bob

5. 
   bobpowers | Jan 27, 2005 02:07am | #13

   I had that happen once. Little chunks of black foam didn't enhance the appearance of my project. That was the only time it happened. I usually put the shellac in a small plastic container, (probably also a no-no) use the foam brush (a known no-no), and then (nobody will believe I do this), dunk the foam brush in the shellac, and cover it with Saran Wrap to reduce evaporation. People don't necessarily admire my woodworking skills, but they like my finishes.

4. 
   wrudiger | Jan 27, 2005 08:20am | #17

   I'm reading Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing - just finished the chapter on oils.  I can't recommend it enough - easy to read and incredibly informative about the makeup of each type of finish, how best to use it, some of the things that can go wrong and how to fix them.  I've already had a number of my beliefs reset, and I haven't even gotten to shellac yet :-).

5. 
   alfie | Jan 27, 2005 07:27pm | #19

   When I first learned to finish, it was the flood-finish approach. That has been difficult to unlearn, though I do succeed sometimes. I have done numerous cherry projects and they are all finished with T&T. I am delighted with each. Here are some things that might help:

   1. Each can comes with a small white label reminding you to use very thin coats. This is important. If you do this, the likelihood of bleed back is minimal simply because there isn't enough of the stuff to bleed out. It does make application harder. A well regarded maker of Cherry furniture who builds in the Shaker tradition, and writes for FW, says that he likes to warm the T&T. The creator and maker of T&T says he disagrees. I have thrown my lot in with the maker, and rely on warmth generated by application friction to do the job.

   2. Most of the time I use Danish Oil or the Original Wood Finish. Even when I use the latter, the first coat is Danish. I usually add a little of the Danish Oil to the Original Finish when I use it. I have chatted with the maker of T&T and as I recall he suggested these techniques. Since I am pleased with the results, I continue to use them. By the way, as far as I know there isn't really anything such as Danish Oil. I suspect the term is associated with the Scandinavian furniture that became popular some time in the 70's (that I know of), and manufacturers adopted the term as a product name. The T&T Danish is pure linseed oil, and I don't know what is Danish about that.

   3. I choose to let the first coat dry for several days. This is sometimes a pain. However, relative to all the effort I have put in to the project, and the rest of my life that I intend to use and enjoy the project, this pain fades into insignificance. If this time frame is not acceptable to a person, then this finish is not a suitable match for the needs of that person.

   So you see there isn't any great secret technique, simply do what it says on the can. You cannot go too-thin, as long as you are getting cover. Let nature and time do the rest. I go for four coats or more. There have been a couple of instances when I had to install what I had built, could only get in two coats in time, and meant to go over it in place. Somehow that has yet to happen.

1. 
   VomSorb | Jan 28, 2005 12:55am | #20

   A recipe for an oil finish.

2. 
   joespehar | Jan 28, 2005 02:29am | #21

   I love the Tried and True Varnish Oil. I thin it a little with Tried and True Danish Oil and spread it on very thin. According to the directions, I wipe it off after one hour. The next day it is ready to coat again.
   Another way I use it, especially on mahogany, is to use 320-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper and rub it on rather wet in circles. That makes a slurry that tends to fill the pores. After you get everything sanded, wait 20 minutes or so and wipe it off across the grain with a clean cloth. The next day do the same thing with 400-grit. The day after that go to 600-grit, but rub just with the grain. You can go to 800, 1000, 1200, or higher if you want. On highly figured mahogany, you get a shimmering finish that seems as if you can look down into the wood.
   T and T smells nice and nutty,and since it doesn't have metallic driers, it is good for the skin. Other varnishes (partucularly urethanes) make my hands sticky. T and T just makes them soft, which is good in the dry winter heating season.