I am about to complete my first large case piece, a walnut armoire. My question is this: Rather than using a wiping varnish as I have done on other smaller pieces, I am considering using the Tried & True Oil Varnish. Is this the wrong finish for walnut? I like the idea of a renewable type finish and the non-plastic velvety look that comes via a hand rubbed finish. I have read Chris Becksvoort’s article ” a true oil finish” but I believe he uses cherry wood almost exclusively. What do you think?
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Replies
Try it on a scrap piece of the walnut you used to make the piece. Every wood even the same type is slightly different and the best way is to test it is on the wood you used. If you decide to use the Tried and True make very sure you apply very thin coats to allow it to dry between applications.
It can look great or just so so. It depends on the wood.
RonK,
Good Idea. I will certainly do just that. What I would like to know further is whether or not anyone out there has actually used this finish on Walnut, and what were the reults?
B.
I did use it on walnut... or at least I think I did?
A couple of years ago as I was building something that used curly maple I decided to try a few different products to see what worked best to bring out the curl. As long as I was fooling with the curly maple I decided to try a few different scrap pieces of different woods to see how they looked. I had a piece of walnut that can out great. When I was preparing the samples I marked on each piece the products used so that I would remember what is was. I have just finished two walnut pieces and want to use the same process. I can't find the walnut sample I made a couple of years ago so of course I am back to square one and have to test it all over again. I believe it is very possible that Tried and True was used on the walnut and I do remember using it on on the curly maple.
If you have the time I would try the Tried and True product for yourself. I have found in many cases it looks no different then some of the other oil finishes but in other cases it look great.
When I was taking a class we had a little lecture concerning finishes and the instructor had a box which contained squares of various hardwood faced plywood. Each of these squares were finished with different combinations of finishes and marked with the Combinations. I have been collecting scraps of hardwood plywood to begin the process for myself as I found being able to look at a sample on a piece of wood more informative then guesswork.
I wouldn't be afraid of trying the Tried and true product as it can be a very good match for certain project wood combination. If you have a problem applying as some others seem to have you can just forget about it. If it works for you as it did for me you have another good option available in certain cases.
BTW someone I know mentioned they could never get it to dry and gave me a new full unopened can of Tried and True. When I read the label I was surprised to find that it was pure linseed oil and NOT Polymerized. I didn't know they sold it this way but apparently they do. This doesn't dry well. If you decide to try it be sure you get a Polymerized version. They do have a couple of different products and a visit to http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/ might be helpful.
Billibob,
I assume you are speaking of shellac?
you bet, It's on every piece of black walnut inside of my house.
billibobb,
Have you tried shellac?
I love the depth, the warmth, the richness of shellac on Walnut.
I love the fact that the absolute king (myself) of bad,sloppy painting can do a flawless finish easily.
I love just how easy and almost brainless it is to do..
By the way you can rag, brush, or spray it on with about the same results..
would you like me to explain?
I would like you to explain because my experience with shellac has been disappointing. I get a lot of ridges if I brush or wipe and a lot of orange peel if I spray. I'm fairly new at this so I'm sure I don't really know what I'm doing but any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm thinking that rubbing out the finish after several coats may be the answer but when I have tried that it seems like a lot of work for a larger piece.
Frank
Sounds like you are using shellac that hasn't been sufficiently diluted with DNA. 2 lb. cut is about the practical maximum for brushing, with 1 1/2 lb. working well. The right brush also helps. I prefer a watercolor wash brush with Taklon gold synthetic camel hair bristles. Such a brush doesn't carry a lot of material, but it lays it down thinnley and evenly so that overlaps are very minor. The key is moving quickly with no going back. Cover a skipped area on the next coat.
Shellac works well padded on with a t-shirt pad. Again, moving quickly is the key. If you sense any drag or "stickiness" stop immediately and wait for the prior coats to dry a while longer.
To add to the previous good advice on shellac, after a couple of thin coats you have gone about as far as you can, if you want a thick film choose a different finish.
John W.
Steve,
Thanks for the advice. I will try and experiment using this technique as well. I do have a question about shellac though. How does it hold up and how easy is it to repair. One of the qualities of oil that I like is the fact that it can be repaired easily. Does the same thing hold true with shellac ? Will it always be evident afterward that an area was "touched up" ?
b.
Fgnoel,
I'd love to explain. I hope this doesn't sound insulting I honestly don't mean to be insulting but I want to cover the most basic stuff to make sure you understand..
Mix shellac with alcohol (denatured alcohol) I use three to one.. That is, a gallon of Zinzzers bullseye shellac to three gallons of denatured alcohol. (or a quart, pint, whatever)..
Do not use paint thinner!
Now you have a thin watery finish that hates only one thing. that is slow!
Do not be slow. do not attempt to prevent runs. They don't matter!
slop it on!.. do the Indy 500 of painting.. That way you prevent the dry edge (cause of ridges)
I use a big old house painter brush but you can use a rag, Spray, a brush, heck a brick!!!
OK maybe I exagerate.. The brick might cause additional scratches. ;-)
Let it dry. it will be dry in about 15 minutes..You can do it now or next month or next year, whenever..
Take a piece of 220 sandpaper and lightly scuff off the fuzz that is raised. When I'm doing a floor with shellac I can cover 500 sq.ft. in 15 minutes with a DA sander..
about 10 seconds per sq foot is the absolute longest you should take...
Slop on another coat..
let it dry and scuff with that same 220 piece of sand paper..
slop on the third and final coat..
let it dry and now you are going to go for depth.
sand lightly with the 220.. then sand with 400 follow with some 000 steel wool
There is a little trick to how much sanding you need to do in this stage. What you want to do for real show quality finish is lightly scuff the whole surface, and then I use a spray bottle of water.. like an old windex bottle or something.. I just mist.
The purists shudder when I recommend that because water on shellac turns the shellac cloudy but you don't leave the mist on that long.. mist, look, and wipe it off. Don't mist the whole piece just where you are working right now.. small areas that can easily and quickly be wiped dry..
If you are nervious you could use a oil or something. I don't like oil because I notice a differance in the finish when I've tried that.
What you are looking for when you mist is the tiny grooves that the sand leaves as it scratches the finish..
Each progressively finer sand paper leaves finer grooves. that is what gives it it's depth..
I'm annal so I go from 220 to 400 and then to 600 and 1000 2000 4000 and then I use a fine rubbing compound.. Followed by a polishing compound and then wax.. Normal people can skip the last few and use steel wool in progressively finer grades
Someday I'll decide to french polish it which is the finest way to finsih a piece of furniture but don't do that if you have any sort of life.. It's nuts.
It sounds much harder than it is.. I would think that a small piece could be done in a few hours, longer time for bigger pieces.. (and you will gain speed as you gain confidence)
Now my informational bit.. whenever you take a pill chances are you are eating shellac.. So it must be pretty benign stuff..
You drink alcohol whenever you have a beer or wine all denaturing is is a way to keep highschool kids from getting a cheap drunk.. don't drink denatured alcohol and you will be just fine..
Compare that to the ingrediants in other finishes..
If you get a scratch or problem with shellac just wipe it with denatured alcohol.. instant fix.. minor scratch use a slightly damp major gouge, use a really wet cloth..
What you are doing is spreading the shellac into the scratch..
Alcohol desolves shellac even decades later making it the absolute easist to repair finish in the world..
Frenchie, you're the man!
You're right about french polishing. I had a shop teacher in 9th grade (back in 65') who showed me how to french polish a mahogany bowl I turned on the lathe. In this particular case, I had the advantage of simply holding a beeswax smeared rag against the spinning bowl recently coated with shellac. I can't imagine doing it simply by hand power. But you know what, that bowl had some kind of a beautiful finish !!! Unfortunately, some jealous kid in my class took a screwdriver to it. I never bothered to repair it. Johnie, if you're out there, I'v got to tell you, that wasen't too cool..... but I forgive you anyway, what the heck, we were kids! In the 9th grade, we're all knuckleheads!
billibobb
Billibobb,
Heh! that's cheatin' ;-) now I am trying to figure how to spin all the stuff I make so I can quickly french polish!
(I've tried getting the same result with buffers and such without any success)
Thanks so much for your detailed and thoughful response. The info was extremely helpful and I am going to try again using the procedure you described. Thanks again.
fgnoel
Frenchie,
What type and cut of shellac have you used in the past. How many coats would you recommend? If the piece ever develops scratches, can they be repaired without stripping the piece? Do you sand between coats, if so what grit of paper would you recommend?
Billibobb
Billibob please read my earlier post,
Yes it fixes insanely easily,
I currantly buy Zinzzers Bullesye but have mixed the flakes.. right now it's as cheap to buy Bullseye as to mix flakes.
three really thin coats is all you want
yes 220 on the first two coats and the final coat I 220, 400, 1000, and then I decide just how annal I want to be.. Finer produces deeper finish.
billibobb,
I think discussions and arguments about "Tried & True Varnish Oil" have been among the most contentious here on Knots. Discussions have consisted of generally 2 camps: Those who have used it successfully and those who have found it (very) wanting. I am in the latter group which my unscientific survey estimates is about 60-75% of the total.
To summarize the rap against the product, it simply never cures. It just stays "wet." Those who like the product, tell those of us who insist it is "snake oil," that we are not applying it properly, that we don't put it on thin enough, that we don't heat it, that we don't wipe it dry enough, yadda, yadda, yadda.
We yell back that we are doing everything possible to make it work, and the finish never hardens on the wood, it never hardens on used rags, etc., etc.
I tried batch, after batch after batch, from a wide variety of retail sources, never could get the stuff to work - AT ALL.
Despite the glowing recommendation from Mr. Becksvoort (which I read when it first appeared in FWW and which prompted me to try the stuff), the best I can say is that the product has a terrible problem with quality control and that some people get a can of brew that will polymerize and others don't. Period.
But don't believe me. Here's what FWW itself had to say in its July/August 2005 issue, No. 178., "Wipe on Finish Test," Chris A. Minick, pp 32-37:
"Choosing the worst performer was much easier: Tried & True Varnish Oil is hard to apply, hardly penetrates the wood, has no sheen, is expensive, and -- worst of all -- doesn't dry."
That same article tested many other commonly available oil/varnish preparations. It found the Best Buy AND Best Value (the best performer and the least expensive) was Minwax Wipe-On Poly. It also found Waterlox original an excellent performer.
I am not a fan of oil/varnish preparations in general, but if you are going to use one, stay away from T&T. I have used the Minwax product and Waterlox and both are dependable. The Waterlox is somewhat more durable (the minwax rubbed off the arms of a teak rocking chair after 3 months use. Refinishining with waterlox, the finish is good after more than 2 years.)
But I really advise you to finish the walnut with an amber shellac, either as the complete finish, or as the first several undercoats. No wood or finish combination was meant more to be used together.
Rich
Rich, I do vaguely remember Chris Minick's article now that you mention it. Tonight I'm going to go back to the stack and do a little research. I've always been impressed with Mr. Minick's opinions, he is after all a chemist by profession, who would know better?
I also appreciate your frank observations about T&T. This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for. It would be my worst nightmare to go through the trouble of applying a finish that never dries to my 88 year old Mother's Christmas Present. I remember way Back in high school shop, almost forty years ago, I constructed a pine gun cabinet. I used Minwax stain and I sprayed the cabinet with several coats of Deft. In the early 70's, I decided to convert the cabinet to a bookcase. I added pine shelves which I decided to finish with "antique varnish" I found a can of unopened Pratt & Lambert Varnish from the 30's in my Dad's garage and thought it would be cool to use it. Well, you know what, that finish never dried, at all ! I eventually had to strip the shelves completely and refinish them with a modern poly. Never again!
Sounds like a combo of amber shellac and Waterlox might be the way to go. In any event, I plan on experimenting before deciding.
Thanks for the advice
Billibobb
I know to some this may sound crazy. My friend is a finisher who is well known and respected in the antique field. The first thing he does is bleach the piece. He says you cannot get the proper background color starting with new wood, it is too purple. He then uses alcohol stains that he makes himself to match a color or get the proper brown color that antiques have after sitting for 200 years. Another option is to use butternut which has a grain very similar to walnut and is cream colored,then just stain it. He also starts with a base color that is much lighter and builds up to the finished color.
Whatever you do, don't put an oil finish on a piece that will be closed up most of the time. The interior will always smell. The interior is a good place for shellac. The attached photo shows a walnut clock finished with 2 coats of garnet shellac and 2 coats of a waterborne lacquer. The interior was finished with a green latex paint.
Ron
Edited 11/1/2006 2:17 pm ET by Ronaway
R.
Good advice. Q: Was that waterborne lacquer sprayed, brushed or ?? Incidentally, good job on the clock.
Thanks,
Billibobb
Shellac and waterborne lacquer were sprayed with hvlp conversion gun.Ron
I have used the Tried and True Oil Varnish on several projects and I like the results. It is a warm, soft finish. Depending on conditions though, drying time between coats was longer than other finishes. I used it on QSWO, but am certain it will look good on walnut.
Don
Rich14 has it right. Stay clear of Tried and True ... nice sales pitch, but drying is an important part of a finish. What I have left in the shop is going on the fence posts next spring.
I read a number of finishing boards and probably see more about this as a single product than any other "name" finish. It is either love it or hate it. And mostly that it does not live up to its hype.Gretchen
By Sal Marino:
(this routine will work on all species, not just open-pored varieties)
Many woodworkers like to use oil finishes instead of lacquer, varnish, polyurethane or waterbased finishes because oil finishes are much easier to apply and much more forgiving when mistakes happen. However, one of the main drawbacks of an oil finish is that one cannot achieve a glass smooth finish on open pored woods (like oak, mahogany etc.) like one can when applying a lacquer, varnish poly or other topcoat finish. When using a topcoat finish on open pored woods, you can either build up the finish by applying multiple coats and sanding back down until the pores have been filled or you can first apply a paste filler to fill the pores, then apply a topcoat finish. Oil finishes are thinner and contain much less solids than topcoat finishes, therefore it would not be practical to apply multiple coats and sand back until the pores have been filled. This would take much too long. Also oil finishes need to penetrate the wood in order to work properly. Once the finish penetrates, the solvents evaporate and the resins solidify actually making the wood itself harder. If the pores have been filled with paste filler (which is silica) a very finely ground glass, the oil finish will not be able to penetrate the filler.
While leaving the pores open when using an oil finish is OK and many times even desirable on some pieces of woodwork like a chest of drawers, chair or clock, for other pieces like conference tables, dining tables, pianos, jewelry and music boxes may look much better if the pores were filled so a glass smooth finish can be obtained. In the end, it still comes down to solely a matter of taste.
Many years ago, I read somewhere that one could wet sand some oil finishes to achieve a higher sheen. The article mentioned nothing about whether this was to be done with open or closed pored woods. At the time I was using an oil finish that I still use quite often today, it is called Watco Danish Oil. This finish is very easy to apply and leaves a beautiful satin to semi-gloss sheen, depending on how many coats are applied. It should only be applied to raw wood so it can penetrate properly. It is available in a natural as well as many colors such as shades of walnut, cherry, golden oak and others. I decided to run some tests using the Watco natural color on various hardwoods. I first tried cherry and maple. First I prepared the wood in my normal manner by sanding with coarse, medium and then fine paper. I then applied a generous amount of Watco Danish Oil to the surface and started to wet sand with 600 grit silicon carbide wet or dry paper. After applying 3 coats of the oil (one per day) and wet sanding each coat, I compared the wet sanded pieces with samples of maple and cherry that I just applied three coats of oil (without wet sanding). The results were disappointing. I did not see any signs of the wet sanded samples having any higher sheen than the pieces that were just oiled. If anything these pieces were a little duller than the samples that were not wet sanded. Next I ran some tests using oak and walnut. I proceeded in the same manner as described above, but this time the results were much different. The wet sanded samples did have somewhat of a higher sheen, but what was more impressive to me was that the surface of the wet sanded pieces of oak and walnut were much smoother than the samples of oak and walnut that were just oiled with no wet sanding. It was then that I realized what had happened, why the surface was smoother and why the sheen had increased. By wet sanding, the Watco Danish Oil mixed with the sawdust that was being created by the sanding. This created a sort of slurry or paste. As I continued to sand, the paste was forced down into the pores of the wood. Basically I had filled the open pores of the oak and walnut by using its own sawdust in combination with the oil which worked as not only a finish but also a binder to hold the sawdust down in the pores and level the surface. The reason why a higher sheen was achieved was simple. Once the pores are filled, much more light reflects off the surface in contrast to when the pores are open the light gets trapped in all the nooks and crannies of the open pores. The author of that article I read must have been using open pored wood.
Although the sheen was somewhat higher by wet sanding on open pored wood, there was not a dramatic difference. I believe the author of that article missed the most important advantage of wet sanding. That is, of course, being able to fill the pores of wood to achieve a glass smooth surface when using an oil finish. Now the term glass smooth may be somewhat confusing. many people associate this with producing a high gloss finish. This is not true. You will not get a high gloss sheen (like you would when using lacquer, varnish or other topcoat) when using any oil finish. The term glass smooth refers to how level the surface is and how smooth it feels.
The ProcessOver the years I have developed and refined the process of wet sanding on open pored wood. The following is the method I currently use:
Prepare the wood by sanding with coarse (100 grit), medium (180 grit), and fine (240 grit) sandpaper. Make sure to wipe off all sawdust after sanding.
Apply a generous amount (almost flood the surface) of Watco Danish Oil to the surface.
Over the years I have found that it is better to use 320 grit silicon carbide wet or dry paper rather than 600 grit. The 320 grit paper will create the paste quickly and the paste will fill the pores better. Immediately after the Watco Danish Oil has been applied (while it is still wet on the surface) wrap a piece of 320 paper around a sanding block and start to wet sand with the grain. Continue to oil and wet sand until you feel enough of the paste has been worked down into the pores.
There will still be a substantial amount of paste left on the surface. Don't wipe it off right away. Let the surface dry for about 10 minutes, then wipe off the excess paste using a lint free rag. Wipe against the grain, trying to cut the paste off at the surface, this way the paste in the pores will remain and not be pulled out. Let dry overnight.
Before you continue, there may be a small amount of paste that is still on the surface. This needs to be removed, if not visible now, it will be when you apply additional coats. Because this has dried overnight, you will need to sand it off. Take another piece of 320 grit paper, wrap it around a block and DRY SAND lightly with the grain. You need only to take a few passes, just enough to remove any excess paste that has remained on the surface.
I have also determined that in most cases wet sanding need only be done on the first application. Therefore, you need only wet sand once (in step 4). Now it is just a matter of applying additional coats of Watco (without wet sanding) until you achieve enough protection and the desired sheen. Usually I apply three to four additional coats after the first wet sanding coat. I let each coat dry overnight and very lightly scuff between coats with 0000 steel wool.
After the last coat has been applied, I let the finish cure about 1 week and apply a coat of quality paste wax. That's it. Try it, I am sure you will be very happy with the results.
Sal Marino is a woodworker and a finishing expert from New York. He works for Constantine's. He teaches woodworking classes at Constantine's, offers private instruction, lectures around the United States and is a finishing consultant to many woodworking and restoration companies. He is also the author of numerous woodworking articles.
Sal,
Very well written. This is exactly th kind of advice I was looking for.
Thanks,
Billibobb
I love oil on walnut. Minwax Antique oil dries quickly and imparts a fine satin sheen if applied as described in your post. I have also used the Watco with the same result. Whether to apply oil to walnut versus other finishes is a matter of personal taste and the end use of the piece. Where water resistance is not paramount, danish oil really enhances the natural beauty of the wood.
I have used basically this same method, but after filling the pores with the slurry you describe, I have sprayed shellac over it, and rubbed it out to get the higher gloss finish. Filling the grain this way is elegant because you don't have to buy or deal with another grain filler product and you don't have to worry about the filler not matching the wood color, or turning white later, as can occur if you use too much pumice dust, plaster or silica based fillers. Be aware that oil significantly darkerns walnut and that if you do very small patches at a time, it is possible to do the same thing wet sanding shellac, without darkening the wood. The shellac just dries very quickly so you can only do 4-6 square inches at a time.
Jay
Billibob
I'm eating my breakfast on an 8' walnut table finished with tried and true varnish oil. I think the main problem with the product is the word "varnish". It may technically BE varnish, but i use it like boiled linseed oil. I suspect the difference is the amount of japan dryer or some such chemical added. It was expensive, I've since learned that no boiled linseed oil is truly "toxic", so i probably won't buy another quart when this one is gone. That said, I think oil finished walnut is beautiful.
My table is coated with probably 4 or 5 coats of oil, then my own beeswax paste wax. This is not a protective coating, which i like- its just a piece of wood. But the oil "wets" the walnut and draws out its rich colors. Regardless of what you do, start with oil. Doing so eliminates your opportunity to use poly, I think.
I recommend a coats of oil- wait a day, then shellac. You can actually shellac over wet oil. I apply a few thin coats- no sanding ever, every hour or so, based upon how large the piece is. I give the last coat a couple hours to dry, then I like to hit the surface with rottenstone and linseed oil. This gives the "hand rubbed" look because, well, its hand rubbed. Its won't be super shiny, but you can wax it up from there if you want. This is a good, easily repairable surface.
I use shellac flakes- I like garnet on walnut or orangey buttonlac. I don't strain and i use a cheap chip brush. People like my finishes.
Adam
Adam,
Thanks for the advice. You're the guy at Pennsbury Manor Right? Originally from Jersey, In the early 60's, my parents often took us there on field trips. I loved those historical tours. I've got to say that I'm jealous of your job though, it must be fun. Although I worked for the Smithsonian for many years as a cabinet maker, I remember others telling me , "hey it must be great" it was, except for all those crazy exhibit deadlines and all those "Gary Larsen" type scientists scurrying about.
The one thing my Mom often humorously brings up to me from time to time is my apparent exclamation about the brick (for lack of another word) out house located at Pennsbury Manor. It seems the apparently world famous proverbial one must have had it's origin there, do you know the one I'm referring to? It was indeed built very well, that's for sure (No disrespect intended). Seriously, it's guy's like you and Mack Headley that keep the Craft alive. You're living the dream man. Keep up the good work.
Billibobb
Thanks- I'm just a volunteer and really not in Mack Headley's league. But I appreciate the kind words. I'm certainly going to tell the site director though that what you remember of Pennsbury manor wasn't the picturesque setting, accurate gardens, or interpretters!! :) I think that's very funny and I'll bet he'll get a big kick out of that. "Hey you work at Pennsbury Manor? They have that brick outhouse there!" That's awesome!Good luck with the armoire.Adam
I just had to chime in here. I don't consider myself to be an expert on finishing but I have used Tried and True varnish oil on several occasions with good results - yes it does take a while to dry, sometimes 24 hrs and sometimes 36-48 hrs. Yet, I have learned that applying it as directed (very thin coats) and placing it in the sun for a few hours keeps the drying time in the 24 hr range. The varnish oil has pine rosin in it and I believe this is what increases the drying time over Tried and True's other two finishes (BLO, BLO with beeswax). I have researched the BLO/Pine Rosin mixture somewhat and most of what I find suggest that pine rosin takes a while to dry - the best information I have found is on sites with information about pine rosin violin varnish. One of these sites is where I found the hint that sunlight will help speed the drying time of pine rosin.
All said, I really like the Tried and True varnish oil - I am making desks for my daughters and I let them apply the TT finish. They had a great time and I enjoyed having them work with me. I don't feel comfortable allowing them to use finishes with petroluem based or other volatile thinners.
I will try to post some links with info later as I have to search for them via google again.
Just my 2 cents,
Randy
Links,
http://www.cranfordpub.com/otis/on_varnish.htm
http://www.scavm.com/Fulton.htm
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/Varn.html
http://woodworkstuff.net/tommyj01.html
There's more out there, just search for pine rosin/resin varnish oil.
Edited 11/4/2006 6:33 am ET by walkerwr
Edited 11/4/2006 7:05 am ET by walkerwr
walkerwr,
Please read the ingrediants in tried and true, how many would you eat?
Well every time you take a pill most likely you are eating shellac..
I find it, um, "interesting" every time someone posts about their "good" experience with Tried & True products and urges the reader to use it. There is always some encouragement that if applied in a particular way it will perform as desired. The advice to apply it in a VERY thin coat is almost always given - as though those who have had trouble with it were incapable of doing that and obviously didn't posses the ability to apply an oil finish - the easist type of finish that exits.The best that can be said about T&T is that it seems to have somewhat less than a 50% "success" rate (maybe very much less). (very, very unscientific analysis based on posts here and other information)If any other product were being discussed in this forum, band saws, table saws, chisels, routers, finishes, moisture meters, tenoning jigs, and on, and on, and on . . . and if anything less than very, very close to 100% reliability were reported, the product would be relegated to "junk" category and the advice uniformly would be to avoid buying, period.Imagine a table saw that only cut accurately 50% of the time. Imagine a chisel that only cuts wood half the time it's used. Imagine a dust collector that actually sucked up the dust every other time it was turned on, or randomly spewed dust back into the shop about 50% of the time! No one would ever promote these products. The expectation is that a thing works as it is supposed to, all the time.Yet the T&T users, despite all the valid reports of serious problems with the stuff continue to urge others to give it a try. Why? What in heaven's name is the fascination with such an unreliable product?Just asking.Rich
Same goes for you as for Frenchy. Nowhere did I urge anyone to use Tried and True. I use other finishes also. I just posted my experience with the finish which appears to be same as C. Becksvoort and many others.
I noticed from another thread on BLO though that your are the finish god and everyone else is to bow down to your expert knowledge of finishes!
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=fw-knots&msg=32288.1
My sentiments are with Samson, yogi, and Dcar10760!
Randy
Edited 11/4/2006 10:12 pm ET by walkerwr
Randy,Gees. Take it easy. You are over-reacting beyond belief. You are misunderstanding honest exchange of opinion and just good-natured kidding.Frenchy does get passionate about shellac (I think he has every reason to do that). He's one of the most helpful and friendliest guys here. His reference to ingesting shellac has to do with the fact that many prescription medications, confections and other foods actually are coated with, yes shellac. It is completely non-toxic and no other material has the desireable qualities and advantages it offers as a coating. Denatured alcohol has nothing to do with it. There is no denatured alcohol in a dry film of shellac.As to your reaction to me, well, relax. Life's too short to get so upset about some posting on an Internet forum. Agree with my opinions or tell me I'm full of cr*p. But take that knot out of your shorts, will ya?Rich
Read my second reply to frenchy. You are correct that shellac is "harmless" in its natural state. However, the thinner, denatured alcohol, is an issue while your applying it and as it dries.
We used denatured alcohol in the factory I work in to find leaks in refrigerant charging equipment. Because of its hazards (mainly the ingredient methyl alcohol) our environmental and safety department banned its use in our facilities period!
Randy
Edited 11/5/2006 8:25 am ET by walkerwr
Edited 11/5/2006 8:26 am ET by walkerwr
Never said anything against shellac or any other finish frenchy! Just posted my experience with Tried and True and posted some links on finishes with pine rosin. I do use shellac as a finish but I am sure my pills do not contain denatured alcohol (thinner for shellac) which I would not drink and I do not want my daughters inhaling the harmful vapors!!!! (which is why I chose TT for their project, no harmful vapors according to msds) - Check out the msds for denatured alcohol, fairly potent stuff:
http://www.syndel.com/msds/denatured_ethanol_msds.html
I almost hate posting anything on this forum because of people like you who put words into my mouth and thoughts into my head. The phrase "shellac is bad" is not in my post.
Randy
Edited 11/4/2006 10:07 pm ET by walkerwr
walkerwr,
My objection with oil based finishes (such as tried and true) is that most are applied with a rag and few take the required precaution to wear protective gloves..
If the largest organ in the body (skin) were immune to contamination then I wouldn't object at all and I would probably go back and start to use them again..
I'm sorry you took the post in the way you did, I should have been much more careful in the way I explained why I use shellac now rather than wipe on oil finishes. My excuse was that I was in a hurry and wanted to share rather than start a confrontation.
As for alcohol, since I assume that you drink at least on occasion Let's agree that 98% of what's in denatured alcohol is relatively benign.. the 2% used to denature it can (depending on who's selling it) contain some ingrediants that aren't real nice.. (some can be downright nasty) However we are speaking about just 2%.
Back when I was hypersensitive to airborne fumes I would simply don a respirator designed to safely eliminate those fumes. (and the attending risk) Nowdays I simply toss open the windows nearby and spalsh away.. The fumes quickly disapate and less than an hour after I apply the finish the only smell I can detect is the semi sweet smell of the shellac itself. Since we know how benign shellac is I simply don't worry..
Frenchy,
Sorry for being so blunt but your original reply suggest that I was attacking shellac but I was not.
As for the denatured alcohal, the msds I posted a link says that it contains 16.4% methyl alcohol which is very poisonous. Excerpts from msds sheets:
"POISON! DANGER! VAPOR HARMFUL. MAY BE FATAL OR CAUSE BLINDNESS IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CANNOT BE MADE NONPOISONOUS. FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM AND LIVER. "
"A slight irritant to the mucous membranes. Toxic effects exerted upon nervous system, particularly the optic nerve. Once absorbed into the body, it is very slowly eliminated. Symptoms of overexposure may include headache, drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, blurred vision, blindness, coma, and death. A person may get better but then worse again up to 30 hours later. "
Hope you wear gloves while applying shellac and although you don't you should wear an apporved respirator. And even if the experts (osha) allow 200ppm long term exposure (only 250 ppm short term - go figure) I do not want my daughters inhaling the fumes of methyl alcohol. Who knows how much cancer is caused by all "allowable limits" of toxic/poisonous chemicals.
As for T&T oil varnish it contains only oxidized linseed oil and pine rosin and I don't think it would harm you applied it with bare hands - probably a good idea to use gloves though. Excerpt from website:
How safe is it,really? All Tried & True Wood Finishes comply with the inner most circle of product safety established by the FDA: "safe for food contact surfaces" (FDA 21,Sec 175.300). Beeswax and natural varnish resin are FDA approved as non-toxic and non-allergic. Non-hazardous. Our products, and or any of their ingredients, are not regulated under the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act (Title 40) or the EPA Resource and Recovery Act(Title 49). Our oils are non-toxic and non-flammable (Although common sense and our label should be consulted for disposal of wiping cloths). The use of these finishes in commercial applications is not regulated by OSHA. No heavy metal driers. These metallic salts of cobalt and manganese are a health risk to those who manufacure them. In use they areconsidered a health risk only in long term exposure. Fume Free - Zero VOC.No solventsor petroleum distillates are present in Tried & True Wood Finishes. Therefore, there is nocompromise in environmental impact, worker health and safety, or indoor air quality.
Randy
Walkerwr,
I don't know what denatured alcohol you get but mine has only 2% not 16%. All that is required by law is to make unfit to drink.. Mine does not contain methyl alcohol rather benzine (which is just as nasty if you read the msds sheets).
By the way some of the effects that you mentioned are the effects of alcohol taken in excess.. Certainly sounds nasty but then alcohol does that. Either you are a tee totaler and have never felt the effects of alcohol, or are overstating dangers..
If you were to read the msds for a Budwieser I'm pretty sure that you'd find the same warnings..
Frenchy, your analogy about shellac being safe when DRY is true (as are all other finishes). AND being used as a coating for pills. (I would imagine it is a different grade than "paint/finish", however.)SURELY you are not trying to split hairs about drinking ANY diluted shellac with ANY denatured alcohol.
We really do need to stick to "apples to apples", please.
Gretchen
Edited 11/5/2006 10:16 am ET by Gretchen
I started not to respond to this post but what the heck.
Frenchy sit down have a glass of denatured alcohol (12 ozs) with a few shellac flakes as a snack and let us know how it went if you are alive to tell about :~) - this is a joke in jest. This bout sums up the absurdity of arguing that denatured alcohal is safe. nuff said!
And just for your info as a teenager I remember the effects of alcohol, but as a grown man with four children just as my father I don't drink alcoholic beverages at all. My wife and I are concerned about our childrens health and the environemt they will live in and their children's children. We have replaced all of our cleaning supplies, shampoos, etc. with safe alternatives that are environmentally friendly such as our laundry detergent with one that does not contain phosphates. So when allowing my children to apply a finish to their desks I felt that T&T would be safer for them to use than some other finishes
Sorry if you took any of my post the wrong way but I am just posting my experience and concerns. Like I said I use other finishes but I take all precautionary measures when doing so.
Randy
Edited 11/5/2006 4:57 pm ET by walkerwr
Randy,Other than making sure everyone knows that you are avery, very angry guy and that you find the advice and opinions of a few people here offensive, and that you are somehow more responsible as a father and an environmentalist than Frenchy (and others, maybe?), do you have a point? Do you have anything to contribute here?Rich
I am not a very angry man. I am a very happy man as I have had a very lovely day enjoying God's wonderful creation and my family. My point was to respond to the original poster's question about my experience with T&T which I did. You and frenchy are responsible for the rest of the post. I did not ask for your patronizing post or frenchy's post which suggested that said "shellac is bad." My response was to the original poster not to either of you. So my contribution is done!
By the way, the blurb about frenchy drinking denature alcohol is a joke (see the smiley face) but I just can't believe that someone would argue attempt to argue that drinking denatured alcohal is analogous to drinking a beer.
I am sure you all are concerned about the environment. In my original post I said I used T&T for some projects I did with my daughters because I felt it was safer for them to use as it does not have any solvents and such in it. So I really do not know what generated Frenchy's first reply.
Have a great day.
Randy
Edited 11/5/2006 4:16 pm ET by walkerwr
Randy,Don't operate any machinery for a few days. OK?Feel better.Have a glass of nice red wine with dinner tonight. Doctors say (one glass only) is good for your heart.Come back soon and play nice with the kids here. It's not that bad a place!Rich
First, I don't think of myself as a finishing expert. All I can say is I had a nice, but not altogether easy experience with Tried and True Varnish Oil. I built a set of bi-fold raised panel doors from solid cherry... I felt I wanted an 'in the wood finish'... so I tried Tried and True. Here was my process -- to avoid blotching, I sanded the doors all the way through 800 to burnish the surface, close the pores, etc. I then used Tried and True at room temperature... I found it was hard to apply it 'thin'. It's like smearing honey. So I smeared it liberally, let it sit for about 45 minutes and then I buffed with clean cotton, lint free cloth. And I mean, buffed. Vigorously. Trying to generate heat. Every little nook and cranny has to be buffed. As you can imagine, this was pretty exhausting... and it gets worse. I would re-visit the doors every few hours and find that the wood had spit out some beads of finish... so I buffed again, vigorously. I buffed about three or four times a day for about three days after I applied the finish. Then when the wood stopped spitting out beads, I simply let it harden for about a week... it seemed to take about this long for the finish to really feel dry. Then I did another coat and repeated this process. I applied 4 coats. Aside from all the complaints I could make about a sore arm and how tedious this became, the finish turned out to be wonderful. The linseed oil gave the cherry a great amber head start on the wood's own natural darkening process. The varnish built up over the coats and the door has a beautiful luster which has remained over the two and a half years since I did this. And, as advertised, it really is an 'in the wood' finish, like an oil finish... which is what it is. So, could the same thing be accomplished with some sort of Maloof recipe? Probably. Still, I had the time to babysit the doors during all that buffing and as a result I had a successful outcome. And for what it's worth, the oil smells good. I can't vouch for it being a very durable finish, though. It's held up nicely for my bedroom closet doors, but I think using it on a table top would be a frustrating experience. Anyway, there's my two cents.
i too have used tried and true successfully on several occasions. i sanded through 600 and heated the oil before application. i really like heating it because it's much easier to apply and in my opinion penitrates better when hot. my understanding was that it should not be flooded on like other linseed oils and left to sit, so i didn't do that. i applied plenty enough to cover all the wood and then wiped it off right afterwards. i went over the piece with dry paper towels until i got nothing back. i left the pieces in a warm boiler room for 3 days and then reapplied oil in the same manner. 3 coats total on several different kinds of wood including cherry with beautiful results. that said, i'm tired of waiting that long to finish a piece. i've since used regular boiled linseed oil on other projects with beautiful results as well. i always use nitrile gloves when applying the oil so i decided that voc's in regular blo and the lack of voc's in tried and true wasn't really an issue for me personally. i like finishing quicker than is possible with tried and true, although i wouldn't hesitate to use it again if i had a good reason.
First, I don't think of myself as a finishing expert. All I can say is I had a nice, but not altogether easy experience with Tried and True Varnish Oil. I built a set of bi-fold raised panel doors from solid cherry... I felt I wanted an 'in the wood finish'... so I tried Tried and True. Here was my process -- to avoid blotching, I sanded the doors all the way through 800 to burnish the surface, close the pores, etc. I then used Tried and True at room temperature... I found it was hard to apply it 'thin'. It's like smearing honey. So I smeared it liberally, let it sit for about 45 minutes and then I buffed with clean cotton, lint free cloth. And I mean, buffed. Vigorously. Trying to generate heat. Every little nook and cranny has to be buffed. As you can imagine, this was pretty exhausting... and it gets worse. I would re-visit the doors every few hours and find that the wood had spit out some beads of finish... so I buffed again, vigorously. I buffed about three or four times a day for about three days after I applied the finish. Then when the wood stopped spitting out beads, I simply let it harden for about a week... it seemed to take about this long for the finish to really feel dry. Then I did another coat and repeated this process. I applied 4 coats. Aside from all the complaints I could make about a sore arm and how tedious this became, the finish turned out to be wonderful. The linseed oil gave the cherry a great amber head start on the wood's own natural darkening process. The varnish built up over the coats and the door has a beautiful luster which has remained over the two and a half years since I did this. And, as advertised, it really is an 'in the wood' finish, like an oil finish... which is what it is. So, could the same thing be accomplished with some sort of Maloof recipe? Probably. Still, I had the time to babysit the doors during all that buffing and as a result I had a successful outcome. And for what it's worth, the oil smells good. I can't vouch for it being a very durable finish, though. It's held up nicely for my bedroom closet doors, but I think using it on a table top would be a frustrating experience. Anyway, there's my two cents.
You used the product correctly. If no material is left on the surface then there is nothing to be disappointed in 'when it doesn't dry.' This is true with the varnish product as well since it is designed to form a film in extremely small increments and only if desired.
A properly applied oil finish is simple, but very labor intensive. Overweight, unfit blokes will not like this finish.
Any so-called, self-proclaimed, or otherwise anointed finishing 'expert' who has pooh-poohed the product has brought his or her preconceived notions of how a finish ought to behave (formed no doubt by products that have metallic dryers added) instead of learning how to use T&T correctly.
It is what it is.
Edited 11/7/2006 9:59 pm ET by VeriestTyro
VeriestTyro has it right. Tried and True is a finish that needs to be labored over. I love it on mahogany. I mix the Varnish Oil with about an equal amount of the T&T Danish Oil. Then I wet-sand starting with 220-grit in a circular pattern to creat a wood slurry to fill the pores. After a while I wipe it off carefully so I don't pull too much of the stuff out of the pores. I continue wet-sanding the next day with 320-grit. The day after that I go to 400, but now I sand only with the grain. Sometimes on successive days I go to 600 and 800. Right now I am building a mahogany end table for our living room. I have started wet-sanding with the T&T before I glued everything together. (I masked all the tenons and other to-be-glued surfaces.) I tried using my 6" randon orbital sander to do the 220 and 320 stages. It works because the T&T is stiff enough so that it doesn't splatter all over the place. The wood feels so smooth when the process is finished.
T&T does dry more slowly than, let's say, Minwax Wiping Polyurethane (which I also use on many things and like). However, that just means your hands don't get sticky, just soft and smooth. It's sort of like a nutty smelling Cornhusker's Lotion. Tried and True is a finish for people who like to do finishing and don't mind spending a lot of time doing it. I love to do it, but I sometimes need to get something done quickly, so I wipe on ArmorSeal or Minwax. I also like the natural, no-gloss look that T&T puts on wood. It's not an easy finish, but it lets the wood look like wood.
walkerwr,
Since we are now in jest rather than serious I will tell you that I don't think drinking shellac mixed with any amount of denatured alcohol is a good thing. Besides it might coat my taste buds so I couldn't enjoy a nice glass of wine.. ;-)
On the other hand I doubt that I'd enjoy drinking tried and true anymore either.. ;-)
I too worry about the enviornment, and for exactly that reason choose shellac.
In reading over this thread, it seems that issues with Tried and True products may be related to "which product", since there are three main products in the line. The one with so many reported problems is the Varnish Oil,which has the highly polymerized linseed oil and which also has the resin varnish. Then there is the Original Wood Finish which also has highly polymerized linseed oil but which has beeswax instead of the natural resin varnish and the Danish Oil, which is less highly polymerized linseed oil. The Original and Danish are apparently much more tractable in use.
I haven't used these T & T finishes myself, since I am not at all worried about metallic driers in the quantities used in finishes, and since I have been happy with products such as Watco for "in-the-wood" oil finishes, and Waterlox (Original and Sealer) for a wipe on finish. I do believe shellac makes an excellent film finish for most fine furniture applications. In my opinion, shellac gets a bad rap that mostly isn't deserved. And, if I want lots of protection where that is called for, a traditional resin varnish, such as Behlen Rockhard or Pratt & Lambert 38, works well in brushed on consistency. Is any one of these "better"--no, the answer is always "it depends". There are always tradeoffs.
Randy,
Thanks for your observations on T&T. It's great to be able to involve the kids in such a project. Normally, you wouldn't want or need them to be around during the machining process, but giving them the opportunity to help apply the finish is great. I've done birdhouses with my 7 year old grandson and he really enjoyed helping to spray the finish (he was masked of course). I've also taught him how to use a spoke shave and he's already made a beautiful cherry walking stick which he's very proud of.
You know, Picasso once said: " every child is an artist - the problem is how to remain an artist when you grow up" (Food for thought...............hum...)
regards, billibobb
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