Replies

1. 
   jase | Jun 19, 2002 01:58am | #1

   Others have had this problem and talked about it here. Do a search and you should find a lengthy discussion on this very subject.

   Jase--Is there a better way?
1. 
   RSRose | Jun 19, 2002 02:53am | #2

   Jase,

   Thanks. Using the search function here is . . . well . . . interesting.

   After many attempts resulting in no messages found, I finally turned up a lot of messages that looked like clones of mine (er, mine looked like clones of theirs). . . consensus: Tried and Trues takes ages to harden.

   Don't have customers waiting, but it's a good thing I only started to finish HALF of the dining table chairs! My wife is starting to get real impatient watching the calendar go by while the partially finished chairs sit in the garage. I'm beginning to think that sanding the chairs back to bare wood and starting over with Tung oil will get the job done before the present coat of Tried and True hardens!

   Maybe if I just scuff the surface and apply Tung oil, the driers in that will harden the Tried and True also.

   Rich

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 19, 2002 04:41am | #3

   The directions call for very thin coats and heating the finish before application will help. The key is very, very thin coats. T&T is not like other products you have used.

1. 
   RSRose | Jun 19, 2002 05:40am | #4

   Howie,

   Thanks -

   I have been applying very thin coats. However, every rubbed oil finish is a thin finish proposition in that the piece is wiped dry (thin film) at the end of the wet phase. The instructions with the T&T say to apply very little during the 1 hour or so wet phase as opposed to flooding the piece before wiping dry. I have been following the instructions to the letter.

   There is nothing on the can about heating the oil. The article in FWW advises heating the oil to aid in penetration. I have always wondered about such advice. First, if heat is important, why is it not a part of the standard instructions. The article emphasizes that T&T is the result of critical heating of the product by the manufacturer to promote the polymerization capability of the oil. The temperature and time of that initial heating are proprietary. What is the heat to be at the time of application by the woodworker using a glue pot or other heating method?

   Second, just how much heat does the heated oil impart to the wood piece? Heating glue in a glue pot raises it to a temperature at which its physical characteristics change (from an impossibly viscous semi-solid to a much less viscous semi-liquid). The change in property lasts for a while even after the glue has suddenly been cooled by contact with the colder wood. But heated oil will lose it's lowered viscosity (and its increased penetrating ability) immediately on being cooled by the wood, unless enough can be applied to also heat the wood. And the technique of using a very thin application completely negates such action.

   Third, is the entire can of oil heated each time a finish session is undertaken? Does this repeated heating cause any problems with the oil remaining in the can? Glue can be repeatedly warmed and cooled without problem. Can finishing oil?

   I'm now realizing the the whole topic of Tried and True seems to involve just a little too much True Belief and hocus pocus. It may just be so much Snake Oil. And expensive snake oil at that.

   The author of the FWW article implied that the glue pot was used partly because of his location (Maine). I assumed that he was referring to cold weather. Maybe I assumed too much. But living in Hawaii, I did not anticipate needing to heat oil in a glue pot prior to application.

   At any rate, I'll try heating the next application and post a follow up. FWIW, I had entertained the thought of rigging a drying box, to raise the heat and lower the humidity, consisting of a light bulb below the curing pieces in a loosely closed box. Again - an awful lot of trouble to go through for a "fool-proof" finishing method.

   Rich

1. 
   Timberwerks | Jun 19, 2002 05:54am | #6

   Rich

   Another thought is when you wipe off the finish really rub the surface.It takes a little muscle but it does seem to help with the drying.

   Edited 6/18/2002 10:55:47 PM ET by timber

2. 
   RSRose | Jun 19, 2002 06:06am | #7

   Timber,

   Thanks. I will give it another shot. I thought that I had been wiping the wood as hard and as dry as I could. But I'll use more muscle.

   I've been around long enough to learn that some things that don't seem to work at first, finally start to go right if you keep at it long enough. Even though you could swear that you didn't change a darn thing.

   Rich

3. 
   Timberwerks | Jun 19, 2002 06:57am | #8

   Rich,

   Good luck with the rest of your finishing. I guess the best tip is, be patient and great results will come of it. I dont think any other finish can compare to a hand rubbed oil finish. I actually look forward to projects that receive this compared to spraying lacguer.

4. 
   gerry001 | Jun 19, 2002 07:18am | #9

   I don't think heating will improve anything but initial penetration. Regarding temperature, stay below 120F.

   I'm surprised that polymerized tung would give that problem. Only other thought is the type of wood you're using. Is it an oily exotic?

   Also wonder if a drier would help here.

   Gerry

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 19, 2002 10:02pm | #16

   >>'I'm now realizing the the whole topic of Tried and True seems to involve just a little too much True Belief and hocus pocus. It may just be so much Snake Oil. And expensive snake oil at that.

   Now you've got it. Great marketing. I do not see any advantage to the product. While it claims to contain nothing harmful, that's true of any pure linseed oil too. In addition, all interior finishes produced since the mid 1970's are required to be non-toxic when cured. I guess you can drink the T&T if you get thirsty but, so what. Once it and other finishes are cured, there all are non-toxic.

   There are too many other easier, more protective and durable finish available to waste time with the T&T IMO.

2. 
   Timberwerks | Jun 19, 2002 05:47am | #5

   Rich

   When I first started using Tried & True I had the same problem. I decided to be more patient and apply very thin coats. The results are worth the wait I have customers who insist on this finish after seeing samples I have in the shop. It really is a handsome finish IMHO. I have been using 4-6 coats on my projects so I do allow ample time for this in my schedule. I gave up my usual Watco & wax after using T&T. By the way T&T danish oil does have a deeper warmer look compared to the Watco and it does dry faster than the varnish oil. This may be another option for you.  

3. 
   sschefer | Jun 19, 2002 07:27am | #10

   Rich, there is a very nice video on the Taunton FWW home site that explains the application process. The other thing that folks have found is that direct sunlight helps to cure it.

   Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   RSRose | Jun 19, 2002 09:09am | #11

   Steve,

   Thanks. I've just watched the Chris Becksvoort video. There is not a darn thing that I'm doing differently than he. In fact, I have been extremely diligent in wiping the surface dry. He did not seem to expend a great deal of effort in that regard. But that may have been because the video clip had to be kept short. He does not heat the oil before application in this video.

   He talks about being able to recoat over a fully cured surface in 24 to 36 hours. Maybe my conditions are slightly different here in Hawaii, but not much. I'm in a fairly dry area (locations here actually vary from tropical-humid to the most arid desert imaginable). My finish just aint getting hard. Letting it sit for more than a week results in a soft, tacky film. If I steel wool that down, it is still slightly sticky days later. While we certainly have an abundance of sunshine here, taking pieces out to cure in direct sunlight is not a workable option for many reasons.

   There must be an awful lot of batch variability of the product for some of us to have experienced such profound problems, while others describe a very straightforward process.

   For the record, I have used every imaginable brand of Tung oil and have combined it with varnishes of every description. The process is always easy and foolproof. It just can't fail, no matter what proportions of Tung/varnish are used. Wipe it on. Let it penetrate for a 1/2 hour or so. Wipe it off. If it gums up too quickly, get it wet again with more oil and wipe it off. Vigorously, get every last drop of wet oil off the surface. Let it cure. Never needs more than 72 hours. Usually rock hard in 48. Level the first film with steel wool and re-apply the oil as above. Use at least 3 coats. Gorgeous, durable results every time. For extra polish, use 1000-1600 grit wet-or-dry to apply paste wax to the last cured coat. Let wax dry and buff with a soft cloth. Stand back and marvel at the glow.

   I have never liked Linseed oil finishes. They never cure and seem dull after a while. I was attracted to T&T by Chris' article in FWW for just the virtues he describes in the video: non toxic, complete polymerization.

   My current project is refinishing teak chairs (about 20 years old) which I sanded to bare wood before using T&T.

   Rich

1. 
   hotsawdust | Jun 19, 2002 04:01pm | #12

   Yup....same experience here. Tried the Tried and True and don't think much of it. Its too thick to put on in thin coats (at least the can I have is), and didn't really dry well even after letting it sit for more than a week. At the high price its not worth it for me. By the way I'm in Vermont, not far from Maine, so its not strictly a function of your climate..

2. 
   sschefer | Jun 19, 2002 05:24pm | #13

   I called a Painter (rough word for the class of work he produces) friend of mine this morning. He confirms the random results with Tried and True but says he usually overcomes the problem with sunlight. He say's that the product will cure if exposed to sunlight but if you're working with woods like cherry he said to be carefull and expose it in increments. He claims that the results are outstanding but doesn't use it much because of the complications that can occur. When he does use it, it is mainly upon customer request for a environmentally correct finish which this product is supposed to be.Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   RSRose | Jun 19, 2002 06:36pm | #14

   Hotsawdust, Steve,

   Thanks guys. Since last night I applied another film of T&T to the driest-feeling pieces. I paid extra diligence to wiping the boards super hard with cotton rags until there was just not a hint of finish coming off on the rags. I tell ya, it just shouldn't be this hard to do oil finishing.

   The boards feel pretty good now, 8 hours later, about how I would expect an oil finish to feel at this point. Not ready for another application yet, but not sticky either.

   I DO want this stuff to work. I like the non-toxic attributes and being able to work without gloves and the soap and water cleanup. Hey, maybe I can look forward to fantastic upper body development from the effort needed to apply this stuff. The job would have been done already if I had stayed with Tung/varnish.

   Oh, well. I'll try for a few more days.

   Rich

1. 
   Timberwerks | Jun 19, 2002 08:30pm | #15

   Rich,

   Keep us posted on your end result's. The first coat is the most critical for drying so you don't build your finish on a uncured base. At times I have let 3-4 pass before recoating this is where you need the patience. It was tough for me to wait at first I was acustomed to spraying lacquer at recoating in less than 30 min. I think you will be happy with your results when all is said and done.

   Good Luck