Replies

1. 
   bszydlo | Apr 21, 2002 11:37pm | #1

   Chris, I cannot be of any help but can let you know that you are not alone.  After reading the FW article I decided to try the finish on cherry cabinets.  I am experiencing the same problems as you - the finish is not drying.  If you get any suggestions on how to remedy this situation please drop me a note.  I am writing to Tried and True to get their recommendations.  Bill

1. 
   Vibart2 | Apr 22, 2002 12:14am | #2

   I don't know anything about this but wish to pose a question. Would humidity have anything to do with your problem? I have read the  article you speak of Chris & I too want to try this finish on some Oak Morris chairs that I plan to build. So please keep us posted on how this turns out.

2. 
   Setzler | Apr 22, 2002 11:49pm | #12

   Bill, Will keep you informed if I come up with anything that hasn't been posted. Am doing a couple of experiments which may offer an answer as to how we might get out of this mess and save our projects without too much additional hassel. We'll get it worked out, I'm sure. It seems to me that we either got a can of Tried & True that isn't normal or we are missing something in the application of the stuff. I have only applied one coat and that will be the last one I put on anything, regardless. A finish that won't dry may not be a woodworker's worst nightmare, but it is pretty high on the list as far as I'm concerned. If the piece is for a client, there goes the profit.

   Chris

1. 
   bszydlo | Apr 23, 2002 03:03pm | #15

   Chris, I am trying to contact Tried and True to get their recommendations, I will keep you informed.  The outside recommendation will not work for me.  Here in Minnesota we are getting snow this week!  Stay in touch, Bill

2. 
   sschefer | Apr 22, 2002 12:48am | #3

   Here's what you probably already know. This is from their web site.

   "Tried & True Wood Finishes are based in a polymerized linseed oil system. Essentially polymerization is a process that the oil goes through (naturally) as it turns from a liquid to a solid. When you apply Tried & True, heat, light and polishing complete the process, leaving a clear, thin, flexible finish. In addition to the environmental and health benefits involved, our products benefit from what is left out: Petroleum solvents act as plasticizers on linseed oil. Metallic driers tend to make the finish dry from the outside in, leaving a gummy undersurface. Tried & True Wood Finishes are longer lasting and more durable because there are no solvents or driers used. All Tried & True Wood Finishes are clear coatings. They work over well prepared surfaces, colored with stains or dyes, or on their own for a deep, natural sheen. They contain Zero VOC"

   Essentially, it just BLO with some resin in it. They say it dries from the inside outwards. Give it about a month at 70 degress and it should be dry. I did a butcher block table using BLO and Wipe on Poly. The BLO took about a month to dry before I could wipe on the poly. It was inside my house and never went below 68 degrees. I think this Tried and True stuff is probably about the same. Personnaly, I think its a rip off at 17.95 a pint.

   You can order it here: http://www.home-environment.com  And you might be able to get more information about it.

   Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   Setzler | Apr 25, 2002 10:20pm | #20

   I'd like to thank everyone who offered their advice and shared the benefits of their experience with T&T. I'm in the middle of attempting to find a method of removing the varnish so I can get the bed finished with something else. So far it doesn't look like that will be even close to a painless operation.

3. 
   WilliamHF | Apr 22, 2002 01:12am | #4

   If you could arrange it:

   Thin the Tried and True product with PURE GUM Spirits of Turpentine and NOTHING else.

   Use THIN coats.

   Here's what may be hard for you to do:

   Dry the work outside in direct sunlight.

   If this leaves you doubting, and why shouldn't it?, then smooth a scrap piece of the project wood. Sand it through  220. Then apply a thinned coat of Tried and True and put the treated scrap in direct sunlight.

   If you ca't arrange for this scheme, well, I tried.

   Best of luck

   William

   I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
1. 
   bill_1010 | Apr 22, 2002 02:00am | #5

   Did you heat up the T&T before applying?  I think there is something about heating(warming) it up that speeds up the cure time. 

1. 
   RLMillard | Apr 22, 2002 02:46am | #7

   I have used the Tried and True Varnish and Danish oil; I have more experience with the Danish Oil, since I use it on nearly all my work. The T&T seems to be the best on the market, in that they have great clarity and won’t overly darken with age (I hope).The varnish oil is very hard to work with, because it is so thick. The directions say to apply it in thin coats. The only practical way to do this is to heat it up. I wipe the piece vigorously once or twice each day while it cures; even then it seems to bleed long after what I would consider ample drying time. You should never put on another coat until the previous one has had several days to cure (I think 3 at room temperature is good).To say the least, I’m not a fan of oil finishes. To me oil is for one thing, to bring depth to the grain, after which I seal it with a coat of shellac, and follow this with high quality varnish on table tops.

1. 
   JohnKrist | Apr 24, 2002 05:12pm | #16

   Dear Rob,

   What mix of shellac do you use and what is your preference for a high grade topcoat. Is the Danish Oil a polyerized tung oil?

   I just accepted my first high dollar commision and would like to approach the project (cherry table and benches) in a refind manner.

   Any suggestions great appreciated,

   JK

1. 
   Celis98 | Apr 25, 2002 12:53am | #17

   Chris B. has a video clip on using Tried and True in FWW's video clip section.

   Brian

2. 
   JohnKrist | Apr 25, 2002 04:55am | #18

   Brian and all,

   I downloaded the Chris B. video clip-thanks. He does not mention a varnish suitable for a table top. My first strategy now on the cherry table is to try the Old Growth cherry aging system, a coat or two of BLO, a sealer of shellac, then a top coat of a polymerized tung oil that will dry hard enough to protect against liquids.

   Comments welcome,

   John

3. 
   RLMillard | Apr 25, 2002 05:02am | #19

   John,

   I use the Tried and True Danish oil as a way to "pop" the grain. Linseed oil from the hardware store, can over time turn very dark. I have heard this is due to the additives, I can’t say this is true. The T&T has great clarity and with the addition of Trans Tint dyes, it makes the finest medium for coloring wood I know of. I work with mahogany almost exclusively, so what I use for it may not work color wise for your cherry. I use dewaxed dark shellac. If the piece seems like it will get too dark with this shellac, then I switch after several coats to super blond shellac. On tabletops, I use only one thing, and that is Behlen’s Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. The Rock Hard does not have the plastic look of polyurethane, and is more scratch resistant than lacquer. Beware the Rock Hard is not an easy or quick finish, it takes nearly a month for me to finish a table to using it.

4. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 26, 2002 12:26am | #21

   JK, "Danish Oil" is a marketing term, not really descriptive of a finish. Most danish oil is an oil/varnish mixture. You can easily make your own by mixing equal parts of your favorite varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. That will give you Watco, Minwax Tung Oil Finish or most of the other "Danish Oils" or "Tung Oil Finishes."

   Rob, linseed oil whether raw or "boiled" will turn dark over time but it takes a hundred years or so providing it was never covered with any other finish. It also takes multiple coats applied over an extended period of time to get materially darker. I don't think T&T would act any differently over very long times.

   I frequently use boiled linseed oil as a colorant for figured wood that I plan to overcoat with an oil based finish. Wiping the surface of walnut, cherry and figured maple with just enough BLO to dampen will add warm color back to dark woods that have been kiln dried and will "pop" the figure. An oil/varnish will do the same thing. Overcoating with a good varnish or a good poly varnish will make a nice looking, long term finish. I like Behlan's Rock Hard also.

2. 
   Setzler | Apr 22, 2002 11:57pm | #13

   William, Thanks for the suggestion. How long does the piece have to stay in the sun before it cures? How much turps do you use in thinning the Tried & True?

   Chris

1. 
   WilliamHF | Apr 23, 2002 06:07am | #14

   Chris, I may well have been confusing in my earlier posts.

   First off, I have not used "Tried and True" products at all.

   If the piece isn't too big to take out doors into sunlight and if you actually live where sun can be expected in reasonable periods of time, I'd give it a try. You would need to turn the piece, of course, so that all surfaces get exposed.

   In my own case, using aerated/heated raw linseed oil, the piece dried in less than two days. Remember I wiped off the excess oil good and proper.

   (This won't be applicable/practical  for most woodworkers but in pieces as small as a violin, a cabinet/box is built inside of which are installed Black Light Bulbs. The UV-A emitted by such bulbs really speeds drying of oil-containing, and other, varnishes. This is a really great blessing for those whose climate doesn't afford much sunlight in much of the working year.)

   Regarding how much Gum Spirits of Turpentine to add as a thinner to linseed oil:

   I'd try something like a tablespoon to a cup of oil/6 ounces. Stir it up, heat it 100 F-110 F. Then TRY IT ON A SCRAP OF THE SAME SPECIES YOUR PROJECT IS BUILT WITH. Adjust the ratio as your observations dictate. The piece itself should be warm too if at all possible.

   All this is just guesstimates with a little experience thrown in. After you've done a couple projects with this type of coating you'll feel much more comfortable with it.

   Good luck; it's gonna come out all right.

   William----in the Florida Sun.

   I make something, sometimes twice, each year.

1. 
   Setzler | May 07, 2002 12:22am | #22

   Thought I would bring you up to date on what I've learned with my experiments with the Tried and True oil varnish. I took William's suggestion about putting a piece in the sun. I put a couple of samples outside with a thin coat of T&T applied. It took about 12 hours for the stuff to cure (two days at 6 hrs/day). In the meantime the bed parts were sitting in the shop still oily after several weeks with that single coat on them. Today they went out for about 6 hours of sun bathing, some cloudiness, with a marked improvement in the hardness of the finish. I was not surprised that linseed oil is polymerized by ultra-violet light to some extent, but certainly was by just how important and effective it was with the T&T.

   I know you felt it was not an option for you at the time and, perhaps, you have found your own solution by now. I couldn't figure out how I could remove oil from wood that had soaked in like the T&T. Was willing to try anything to get it cured. Thanks to William for showing the way.

   Chris

1. 
   bszydlo | May 07, 2002 01:59pm | #23

   Chris, thanks for writing back.  My finish has still not cured, hopefully we will get some warm weather next week in order to try the outdoor solution.  I have not received a response from T&T concerning this problem.  Needless to say I am not at all impressed by their customer support.  I thought about trying to remove the finish put do not think that is possible.  I guess I will just have to wait for some warmer weather (the high tommorrow is supposed to be 47!).  Thanks again, Bill

4. 
   ETG | Apr 22, 2002 02:31am | #6

   I've been using all 3 Tried & True products for several years with great success - much of it on cherry.  Even though the instructions don't say anything about heating, I heat my tin on a coffee pot warmer - just the right temperature.  While you can thin the finishes, I've found this is not necessary.  What is important is that you put this finish on Thin - repeat Thin.  When I do flat surfaces, I use a cheap squeegee that you would use to clean windows or shower stalls.  I squeegee the surface down to the point that it is barely wet with the finish.  After about 45 minutes to an hour, I take a cloth and hand wipe the finish.  Usually the surface is ready for a 2nd coat within 24 hours - I live in Maryland and we always have plenty of humidity and I still don't have problems.  If you continue to have problems, call the Robson family - they are nice folks - I've chatted with them before.  Also, it is noteworthy that Thomas Moser (whose product line has very few items under $1000 and all solid cherry) uses essentially the same finish - 2 coats of boiled linseed oil (heated) and a coat of carnuba wax.  For the product he sells and his lifetime warranty, I'd have to conclude the finish is a mighty good one!

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 22, 2002 02:58am | #8

   Just so you all know, in my previous post, I didn't mean to make it sound like it wasn't a good product. I just seems to me that you can get all of these very same ingredients from you local hardware store for a lot less than 17.95 a pint.

   I've worked with BLO enough to know that the one thing you cant do is rush it. I don't heat BLO at all and I never thin it. Thats not to say that these methods are bad it just not the way I do it.

   I prefer to flood the piece with BLO, let is set for about 1/2 hour and then I wipe it as dry as I possibly can changing rags often. I then let it be for about a month in most cases. Once I'm sure the BLO is as dry as its going to get I put a top coat finish of my choice on top of it. I've attached a picture of a table I made from spruce. The top coat in this case was Wipe On Poly. All total, there's about $5.00 worth of finish on it. I've got at least a half a pint of poly left and 3/4's of a pint of BLO.Steve - in Northern California

   
1. 
   WilliamHF | Apr 22, 2002 05:25am | #9

   Here are some sorta disconnected remarks about drying Linseed oil-containing coatings. I do not profess to be an expert in the finishing department.

   Recall that the author (Chris B.)  of the article which endorsed "Tried and True" finishes in a recent Fine Woodworking magazine recommended the product because it contains no driers or other additives and no petroleum products. Thus it is safe on the hands of the worker who uses it and the customer who uses the finished piece. That's not the only reason it's a good product but an important one.

   In another forum and privately, I have corresponded with Joe Robson, maker of "Tried and True"  Varnish products.

   He recommends using THIN coats.

   Recently I wanted to coat a just-finished Maple workbench with a Linseed Oil finish. I treated Raw Linseed Oil by aerating it for 14 days and then by heating it to around 275 F for an hour and a half.  Both of these procedures help to polymerize some of the multiple organic compounds contained within Linseed oil. So when you finally apply the product, drying occurs considerably  faster than when you use RAW linseed oil as it comes from the can.

   I believe that  Steve,  in another post, above,  refers to Boiled Linseed Oil when he uses the "BLO" descriptor.

   Boiled Linseed Oil contains chemical driers and so it dries much faster than virgin Raw linseed oil or even partially polymerized raw linseed oil. Nothing wrong with that. Some toxicity may be introduced in the process.

   I don't have any way of knowing just how polymerized Mr. Robson's "Tried and True" varnishes are as one purchases them but I suspect they are at least partially polymerized as they come from the can.

   Mr. Robson taught me that Raw Linseed Oil, applied in THIN coats and put in direct sunlight would dry in a couple days. The only thinner he says one should ever use with RAW Linseed Oil is Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine. No other thinner should be used. (Note: my remarks about drying untreated, RAW Linseed Oil apply to that product only, and NOT to Mr. Robson's Tried and True Varnish.)

   And BTW, Mr. Robson is very busy. But he eventually gets around to replying to questions from potential customers.

   In my opinion, you simply MUST wipe off any excess oil product after it has been applied to a piece for a half hour or an hour. (I don't know exactly how much time should be allowed for the oil to be on the piece. Probably varies a bit depending on the wood species and the degree to which one has scraped or sanded the project. It's a judgment call.)  Then you wait an hour or so and apply another good coating of the oil product. Wait 15 minutes or a half hour and wipe that coating down, too.

   (If you happen to want a really nice surface on a hardwood project like Cherry or Maple, sand it through 320 by machine or hand. Then go back to about 180 and use your oil product with your paper as you hand sand the project up through 320 or even 400 again.)

   Obviously, it's simpler to buy a linseed oil product which you like than it is to go through the operations I have done experimentally for the fun of it and for the learning experience.

   FWIW

   William

   I make something, sometimes twice, each year.

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 22, 2002 05:46am | #10

   William, well stated. Yes I was referring to boiled linseed oil. I'll use raw linseed oil if there is any chance that small children will be using the furniture and I don't intend to seal it with a top coat finish. Aereation and heating is a must with raw linseed oil or it will take forever to dry completely. Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   IronDog | Apr 22, 2002 04:08pm | #11

   I recall in the Chris B. article that he applied the Tried and True from a heated pot. I think that would help it flow better and be easier to apply truly thin coats as it would be less gummy going on. I have been using it and have been happy with it. It is not a quick finish but I think it is a nice product.

   tom

5. 
   DonStephan | Mar 06, 2010 07:05pm | #24

   Wanted to add what I've learned in case anyone in the future finds this thread using the search function.

   Finally received call back from the manufacturer of Tried & True Varnish, and he said the varnish has to be applied extremely thin, not simply wiped off thoroughly.  His suggestion for application was to make a rubber like that used for french polishing, add only a few drops of Tried & True Varnish, and then rub the finish on.  He said it should take work to move the varnish from the applicator to the surface of the wood., and that every last bit of varnish should be worked from the applicator before it is recharged.  Exposure to light and an ambient temp round the clock of 75 deg F will help with drying.

   Today I found in the Techniques section of the FWW web site, finishing sub-section, some details from C. Becksvoort.  He mixes 2 parts T&T Varnish with 1 part spar or (regular) varnish.  I applied this mix wet and then wiped off thoroughly, and while the mix is drying it's still been over a week now and while some areas are dry enough to sand, other areas aren't yet.  I think that even this mix should be applied very sparingly.

   Long after the fact, I realized that my test panels for T&T Varnish weren't very authentic.  The blanket chest I applied it to was large and had sides and a bottom.  The test panels were approximately 6" x 4" scraps to which I just happened to apply the T&T Varnish very sparingly, so they dried within 48 hours.  In an effort to get the varnish on the blanket chest as quickly as possible I applied the T&T Varnish like I apply linseed oil - dip part of the rag in the liquid and rub around the wood.  After a week the straight T&T Varnish applied this way had not dried at all.  Scrubbed thoroughly with lacquer thinner and a maroon nylon pad and let dry for several days.  Seemed to remove all the stickiness.

   Hope this helps someone in the future.