Yesterday I was trimming up some tenons and noticed that my medium sized shoulder plane did well lengthwise on the shoulders but did not perform very well on the short side…I used a skew plane(140) with a little better results..is there a recommended plane for this job or is it “whatever you find works?”
Neil
Replies
Neil,
I found that the shoulder plane works best the more surface it has for registration. Small tenons (or the smaller areas of tenons) were problematic for me too. This might be lack of skill in a novice (I am one too, with handools) however:
Maike Wenzloff, in one of his posts, mentioned in passing that he sometimes uses a file to get the final fit. I took notice and have been doing the same ever since. Assuming you cut the tenon fairly accurately to start with, not much of those difficult small areas requires filing so it takes no longer than trying to do it with a plane.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Thanks for the suggestion...a file makes sense given the small area..is there a particular type of file? (ideally one I don't have so I'll have to buy a new tool,afterall, this is a project suggested by my wife)
Neil
and on the other end, do mortise chisels ( I guess more specifically, sash mortise chisels) need a microbevel? does it add that much more to the performance?
Neil
Neil,
I have a randomly-chosen Proper File, which is a half round second-cut (ie the grade between bastard and smooth). Also a pack of 6 mini files of various profiles in a plastic wallet, that cost a couple of quid somewhere or other (I forget where). Both do the job but I suspect that some posh rifflers and/or rasps from Aurirou will make one do a better job (via the psychological pressure of having to justify the cost). :-)
Lataxe.
"You paid HOW much for a file?"
"Honey, it's a posh Aurious. It's what Lataxe recommended!"
"Who?"
"You know, that English bloke from Knots. The one who's always recommending really good tools"
"Oh, THAT guy...(under her breath: limey b.........)
"Whadyousay?"
"Nothing dear"
Edited 6/22/2007 1:50 pm ET by noviceneil
Novice, old chap, how is a wife to know or compare what is or could be paid for a file? (A file is a nail file, right?) (;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
She is of the opinion that I spend WAY too much money on tools ("it's a hobby")..I for one don't think of it as hobby but rather an advocation..I was being somewhat tongue in cheek but she is rather frugal and does see my credit card receipts and did suggest that a have (dare I say it) a BUDGET for my expenditures (just another phase in a woodworkers life, my brother observed)..if I had my way I would already own a couple Marcou planes instead of those cheap LN's
Neil
Edited 6/23/2007 7:35 am ET by noviceneil
Out of line, I'm sure.
Nevertheless, an ordinary router can cut some clean tenons, given the fixturing.
Cluster of tenons, no post machine handwork.
Pat, Pat, Pat...this is the hand tool section <g>.But you are correct about using an electric router. Still, a well set up bandsaw was my most oft used piece of machinery. For smaller furniture it was most often a WoodRat. This was during my commercial shop days when there was more people in it than myself.What is "funny" to me is just how much more productive have machines gotten us? With a well stocked shop, I doubt my personal production using machinery on bespoke furniture was what an average joiner/cabinetmaker did in the 17th and 18th centuries.Take care, Mike
LataxeI have also used 80 grit paper stuck onto a small stick like a tongue depressor to tune up joinery. (tenons, dovetails) The control is very good as long as you don't remove too much material, which runs the risk of roundover.Best regards, Tom.
Also, don't forget that a sharp chisel works too.
Noviceneil,
Time for me to get on my soapbox.
The only handtool that I am aware of that will transfer a plane surface to another parallel plane surface is a router plane.
I am constantly surprised at people who spend hours of effort squaring up their lumber, verifying that all cuts are at just the correct angle, etc. only to attack the tenons willy-nilly with hand held abrasives, abraders, shoulder planes, and so on.
And then - they lay the shoulder plane on the tenon cheek and trim the shoulder!!
Has no one ever taught them the proper use of a router plane? Probably not.
It really is simple, the attached pics show a jig for the purpose, but traditionally a piece of offcut was screwed to the router plane sole for outboard support.
Off soapbox and back to your regularly scheduled programming, ignore the ranting of the man in the white coat with the funny sleeves.
Mike
Yep. I've done countless lap and tenons with a router. Shown many how to do same. Even a router plane can be used willy-nilly.
For countless generations, people have used what they have or desire to use. For many, it is the simple chisel. For others, myself included, a file or rasp is quick and painless. Still for many others, shoulder planes are used for both the shoulders and cheeks. As mentioned, even a sanding block works well.
And there is, of course, the router plane. Go back before yours was made and most were made from wood--the following picture is one I got off the Bay and will spruce up when I have time. Craftsman made.
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For tenons, I will continue to do what is quickest--saw as carefully as possible and if needed, a couple licks from the file.
For lap joints which are seen, I too will use a router plane most often.
Take care, Mikewho also doesn't spend countless hours worrying about some absolute squareness...
Mike,
Do you know, I had nearly got the required number of tasks on my list for "justification of router plane purchase". But then you had to point out that there is more than one way to skin a tenon.
Still, I could always lie to myself or adopt a temporary intransigence ("There's only one way to trim a tenon....etc.") until the purchase has been made. However, these temporary intransigences have a way of sticking to the synapses and before you know it you are burning strangers from the next village at a stake because they wear the wrong hat on Fridays.
I'd better stick with the "saw accurately and lick wth a file" method for now. :-)
Lataxe
PS Do frou frous have to have gadroons in all cases; or is a gadroonless frou frou an acceptable innovation, do you think? It's a moot point for me, really, as I have no frou frous (neither gadrooned or in a nude condition) on my project list.
I've used a router plane for that (trimming tenon cheeks) and it works well. Another thing it works for is trimming the ends of stopped dovetail sockets, referencing off of the back face of the (usually) drawer front.
Handy things them.
David
I'd better stick with the "saw accurately and lick wth a file" method for now. :-)
Lataxe, I agree. While the router plane does ensure that the tenon is parallel to the stretcher face, it is not the most fun plane to use across the grain.
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It does not always need an outrigger. (Picture from my review of the LV Router Plane: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVRouterPlane/index.asp).
I prefer a Stanley #140 or rasp (the Wenzloff way!).
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 6/24/2007 9:19 am ET by derekcohen
Ha, ha...Well, go ahead. buy one. choose another reason, say like stopped dadoes and grooves...Take care, Mike
who has 3 router planes...
Bro. Lataxe, saw, trim with a MF copy of #140 and file is fine for shop cab's etc. as I saw poorly* but the #271, #71, #98, #99 and that clever double ended #??? are the last word for cheeks and shoulders on goods for family, kids, friends or Moi.
They also come into play when you buy a mail order drill press table(I was pressed for time and it was on sale-a lot) and NONE of the T rails fit in the dados(they had a sub-contractor problem) I called them, acepted a 50% credit in lieu of a return and refitted all of the alunimium bars with watchmaker precision in about 25 min. as you or many others here would do.
I am here to tell ya that you should leap out there and pick up the new LV router that I lust for but can't justify as my Stanley ain't broke and I bought it at a closeout with every cutter he had in stock for a pitance over 15 years ago. Peace Bro Froe, Paddy
* I guess I have to call MW before years end to help that problem out before I start on the BIG bench next year. I guess better cuttin means less scraping and plaining.
I had never thought of useing that tool that way b4...it's pretty nifty. I'll have to design my next project with a ton of tenons and then try to get each one to within a thousandth of an inch that way. Sounds like fun!!! You can tell i've never used one crossgrain b4 can't you.
I did learn that trick/method..however, as my sawing improved I didn't use it much. Then I got this newfangled LARGE tenon saw copied from the Seaton chest tool collection...although it was said to be superior to the smaller ones, being a novice it took me awhile to get the hang of it..now it works great and the tenons need very little cleaning up..and these are for a deck railing so not as much perfection is needed as opposed to furniture..still they are fitting nicely into their mortices...one of the good things about being a novice is that I see improvements rapidly, even on the same job if it's lengthy...
Earlier I posed the question about sash mortice chisels. Does anyone have an opinion about the need for a microbevel on these types of chisels?
thanks for everyone's tips,
Neil
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