Replies

1. 
   saschafer | Sep 23, 2007 07:27am | #1

   You just found out the hard way that cherry can be a very blotch-prone wood. You did the right thing by using a conditioner, but perhaps not in the most effective way. You may find these two articles by Bob Flexner helpful in diagnosing and solving the problem:

   http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniquearticlefinishing?id=14747

   http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniquearticlefinishing?id=14814

   -Steve

    

1. 
   tbtractor | Sep 23, 2007 09:28am | #4

   Thank You So Much !!! I will Try it   Tom

1. 
   dougmeyer | Sep 23, 2007 02:53pm | #5

   Ok, taking a look at these articales and such cleared up some of my questions (and from the sound of it all of the OPs questions) but I have to ask. If waiting over night it the prefered but it makes stains lighter (that seams logical to me) can you get around this with multiple coats of stain (to get the darker color) or will this just turn to mud. The soloution (waiting over night) sounds good but I need to match the color I have already (and this is on wood that I did not wait over night on) So if waiting will not let me get the darker color I will need to continue the same way I was and just live with it as best I can. Blotching is bad, two differnet colors in the same trim (for a house) is worse (IMHO).

   The same issue of course applys to gel stains. (trying to match existing color)

   Doug Meyer

1. 
   user-83153 | Sep 25, 2007 07:01am | #9

   If you are trying to get a color that is darker than just one coat of stain will give you, you would be better off using more than one step to achieve it. Multiple coats of stain, especially minwax (ugh!) pigment stains will obscure the subtle grain and beauty of cherry that makes it so popular in the first place.

   Try a water soluble dye on bare wood to get you close to the base color that you want and then apply a sealer coat of shellac, followed by a gel stain to refine the color. Remember, the color that the dye will be after finishing, is the color it is when it is still wet, not after it dries.

   You could also use garnet shellac to darken cherry. It looks wonderful on cherry and can be topcoated with anything if it is dewaxed.

    

   Rob

1. 
   dougmeyer | Sep 26, 2007 04:46am | #10

   Well the issue is/was that if you use a sealer you do not get as deep a color as when you dont. So if you stained a piece with wet sealer (for lack of a better term) and a secound piece with dry sealer, the second should be lighter as the stain did not sink in as much. This would be an issue if you are try to match something that was down with out letting the sealer dry. Thus the idea of two coats.

   Most of the time I try to put on very light coats that I wipe off pretty fast. I find that if I let two very light coats that I wipe off verse one heavy coat that I let sit longer. I get about the same look (color wise) but that I tend to have a more even color and less blotching. But like I said I do not let either coat sit very long at all (I all but wipe it off as fast as I put it on).

   I did this with the cherry in my kitchen (a very light color, almost to the point of being natural cherry). and it seamed to work pretty well. But the stain is so light that two coats (wiped on and back off about that fast) are still very very light.

   Doug Meyer

2. 
   mapleman | Sep 23, 2007 08:36am | #2

   tractor,

   The first thing I would recommend would be to throw the minwax out the back door.

   Try a good quality gel stain (bartleys or general make really good quality gel stains) if you go with general brand look for a color called java. Really nice brown color and looks like a million bucks on cherry - no blotching. I use it on kitchen cabinet jobs all the time. No conditioner required with gel stains, either.

   Good luck,

   Lee

1. 
   tbtractor | Sep 23, 2007 09:02am | #3

   Thanks Lee, I will try it. Tom

3. 
   dperfe | Sep 23, 2007 05:44pm | #6

   tb,

   I would highly recommend buying "Taunton's Complete Illustrated guide to Finishing" by Jeff Jewitt. It is an excellent reference and easy to follow. He has another, "Great Wood Finishes" in which he provides and demonstrates a number of exact schedules, which I found very helpful.

   I recently went through the same trouble you're experiencing. I built a 12' cherry wall unit, mantle with raised panels above and book cabinets on either side. The hardest and most frustrating element was getting the color, quality and finish to what my customer wanted. I went through an exhaustive and laborious process. I sought advice hear, as well as from the local Rockler store, and read many articles. I did a lot of experimenting as well. Here's an abridged version of what i discovered. In the first book i mentioned jeff recommends (in the section on matching color) first using a dye stain to match the base color of what you want, seal it, apply a glaze and then apply the finish.

   Now there are MANY different ways or variations to this basic process that you can do, It's a matter of finding what you're comfortable with in terms of skill, resources and limitations you have. For instance, in another example Jeff says to apply a light amber color to the cherry, to help blend the different variations of the wood together, seal the wood with a lacquer sealer, apply an oil based glaze and then use a toner to 'creep' up on the final color. This can be intimidating, it was for me. But first let me explain what he's accomplishing in this process. The dye, as i stated, in this example is used to blend and give uniformity, not to give a base color as i described in his other process. Sealing the wood is done to prevent, to a large degree, any splotching of the glaze. It will also, depending on how heavy a sealer you use, determine the degree of pigment penetration and subsequently how prominant the grain will appear. The glaze will also impart some color and over a dye will give depth to the overall appearance. Spraying the toner will create the finish, accomplish any further blending you desire, and impart color in a very even unblotched appearance, depending on your skill.

   Now as I said, there are many variations to this theme. What i did is this. I experimented with a lacquer toner but didn't like my results. I am new to spraying, so I didn't trust my ability to get an even color over such a large project. Instead I went the dye route to give the base color. I sprayed a water based dye. The dye is easier to correct than a lacquer toner done later in the process. After some practice and mishaps with the gun, I picked up the skill well enough to give a nice even, no splotching, appearance. I then chose to use the Bullseye sealcoat, uncut, instead of the lacquer because i liked the results in color that it imparted and that it was a heavier sealer. Yes the sealer and finish will alter your color as well, so you need to take that into consideration as well. If it's not a water based product, it will give you a yellow tone, which definitely will affect the final color. I then used behlen's oil based glaze, to impart a medium brown color and to bring out the grain a bit. Also, if you can't spray the dye, the glaze will do a good job of evening out blotching. I then finished it with General Finishes oil urethane blend. If you want to try this process, you need to play around quite a bit with samples to get the color right.

   One other note, I also experimented with minwax pigments, and other gel stains. The big problem I had with the pigments was blotching and and getting the color consistent over the many variations of cherry. This was more prominant with the minwax vs, the GF oil based pigments. I also tried using several sealers, and a conditioner under the pigment stains but didn't like the results (though, thanks to Steve for posting that one link, that made a lot of sense re the conditioner.) I also played around quite a bit with the gel stains both on the bare wood and over a sealer. The results were better than the oil based pigment, though I still ran into quite a bit of difficulty getting a consistent color.

   As you can see, i did a variation of Jeff's schedule. You may need to play around a bit to get the results you want. While doing so you need to keep in mind what products work with each other and what don't. ie, don't use a water based sealer over a water based dye. Use an oil based glaze over the shelac ( the shellac needs to be fully dewaxed). You can also use a gel stain as a glaze as well.

   Hope this helps,
   Dave

   Edited 9/23/2007 10:52 am ET by dperfe

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/23/2007 10:57 am ET by dperfe

1. 
   tbtractor | Sep 23, 2007 06:04pm | #7

   Thanks Dave, this does help a lot.

2. 
   alan23 | Sep 28, 2007 03:02am | #17

   I got some info when I wanted to color cherry and I thought the results were quite good.I started with generals wipe on finish let it dry and then I used generals candlelite colored gel stain over it and got nice even color,the problem with this process is you can not wipe on a finish or you will wipe off the color so I had to spray on a finish which seals the color on the suface then I rubbed out the finish and waxed the piece.

4. 
   brad805 | Sep 24, 2007 07:50pm | #8

   I went through this too and now use a technique suggested by Jeff to deal with Cherry.  Good book, lots of info.  If you are looking for Bartley gel stains, they were bought out by Lawerence McFadden.  They still produce it and label it Bartley.  I bought some recently from them. 

   Good luck

5. 
   Ronaway | Sep 27, 2007 04:15am | #11

   rbtractor,

   The cherry sideboard in the attached pic is colored using a tung oil blocker to control stain absorption, then a waterbase dye, and then overwiped with a oil based pigmented stain. I then sprayed 2 coats of dark garnet shellac and then top coated with Target USL lacquer. When the color is built up in two coloring steps you maintain clarity of grain but achieve consistent color. The dark garnet shellac also helps with the overall color effect.

   Ron Brese

   If you're too open minded your brains will fall out.

   
1. 
   tbtractor | Sep 27, 2007 05:29am | #12

   Thanks Ron, That looks great.   Tom

6. 
   PlaneAround | Sep 27, 2007 08:27pm | #13

   Hi,

     Finishing's certainly something that challenges all of us, and staining is most particularly challenge-fraught.  I've tried everything over the years and recommend one of 3 approaches:

       1) try using analine dyes (available at Lee Valley and such distributors) in lieu of pigment-based stains.  The down side to dyes is that they're a bit less colour fast (will fade a bit over time) than pigment stains, plus they don't impart much depth to the finish, even after coated with finish.

        2) use gel stains.  These seem to blotch less, and I've found them simple to use.  The only challenge I have found with them is to ensure you wipe them down before they start to set up, or you'll have a lot of trouble getting the excess stain off.

        3) pre-condition the wood.  This can be done by a few different means, but the one that works best for me is using thinned shellac.  I have turned to waterborne finishes exclusively now, so water down the shellac using 1 part of water to 2 parts of shellac.  The brand I prefer is Target Coatings; see their website.  When this dries it seals off the more open pore areas in the wood so they'll accept stains about the same amount as those areas where the grain runs parallel to the surface of the wood.  There are also "pre-conditioners" you can purchase, however I've found them to be no more effective than the shellac method I described... plus they're much more expensive.

     Be willing to experiment and find the process that works best for you.

    

   Marty in Ottawa

1. 
   tbtractor | Sep 27, 2007 11:50pm | #14

   Thanks for the help

1. 
   dperfe | Sep 28, 2007 01:07am | #15

   You don't cut shellac with water. Moisture causes shellac to blush. If you want to thin shellac you use denatured alcohol.

1. 
   user-83153 | Sep 28, 2007 01:35am | #16

   He is talking about waterborne shellac.

   http://www.targetcoatings.com/sealer_ox_shellac.html

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Sep 28, 2007 04:08am | #19

   The secret to getting "depth" is to use the dye to establish the overall basic color, seal it, and then use a pigmented stain (as a toner or glaze).  The combination tends to look better than either alone.  The shellac or other finish that seals the dye prevents blotching from the pigmented stain.  The pigment also tends to slow fading of the dye.  Lots of times more steps is easier than trying to get a one step color. 

1. 
   ohiobob | Oct 23, 2007 03:39am | #20

   I have had good luck staining cherry using Bartleys Brown Mahogany. 3 coates. Here are the last 2projects using that stain. I topped them with Min Wax antique oil.

   
1. 
   Brewgonia | Oct 23, 2007 04:20pm | #21

   I like your style! Did you do the table in the hutch photo as well? Looks like a nicely figured top.

1. 
   ohiobob | Oct 24, 2007 01:40am | #22

   Thanks, The table was built by David Smith in Morrow Ohio. He is famous for his period pieces. Actually the hutch i built is from his book.

7. 
   alan23 | Sep 28, 2007 03:05am | #18

   I just posted a message on this page about cherry that might help you in the future.

8. 
   philmm | Oct 24, 2007 01:06pm | #23

   I put a light coat of shellac on cherry before I Stain it. A good gel stain works nicely. I finish the wood off with a wipe on poly. I've had success getting a blotch free aged cherry look. But remember, cherry darkens as it age - a day in the sun will age you cherry a lot- so i tend to go light on the stain, because I know that the cherry will darken after a few days out of the shop.

9. 
   CurtThorne | Oct 25, 2007 04:55am | #24

   There may be a simple answer for you.  Cherry oxidizes and darkens with exposure to direct sun light - becoming significantly darker after 6 to 16 hours of exposure.  I suggest preparing the wood by planing, then scraping, and maybe addressing any bits that show scraper marks with 320 grit sanding.  Expose to sunlight after surface prep.  Test to see if your finish will be blotchy by wetting with alcohol (fast drying) or mineral spirits.  If it suits you, finish with your favorite combination of natural finish.

   A limitation to this method relates to the need to closely match various boards in any glue up.  I'm sure you are aware that cherry is notorious for color variation within the species.  Glazing is a good approach for blending color.  My recommendation is to spend your time and money getting boards that match, and use the natural method. 

   Hope it helps.

   Curt

1. 
   PlaneAround | Oct 25, 2007 06:38am | #25

   Curt,

     I'm intrigued that you're recommending hand planing and scraping surfaces, followed up with 320 grit sandpaper, instead of using only sandpaper.  I recall a recent FWW article that demonstrated nil discernable difference in the finished surface, between those prep'd with hand planes and scraperes and those prep'd with only sandpaper.

   Marty in Ottawa

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 25, 2007 08:52am | #26

   The first reason for hand planing and scraping  is that it is faster than using only sanding not to mention quieter.   

   Further, the two methods only look the same if you aim for the dead flat surfaces of commercial furniture.  If you leave the faint undulations of very light cambering of blades the look is subtlely different.  This is important to do when making reproduction furniture.  Even in the Federal period when surfaces had become quite refined, fingertips will reveal these hints of planing, and reflections will reveal the slight curvature of tops.  In the right light, the glass flat look of factory furniture stands out across a large living room when placed among genuine period pieces.   

   With sanding, particularly with ROS sanding, deviations from dead flat shows up as kind of patchy wobbles on the surface, while with planing the deviations seem more organic. 

   Of course if the style of furniture--moderne or mid-century modern for example-- demands it, you can, with care and constant checking, achieve the factory flat surface using the planes and scrapers. You need about equal care to achieve the same thing with ROS sanding.  That's of course why factory surfaces are best achieved with factory methods--and the wide belt sander comes into the picture.