Replies

1. 
   nonexxx | Jan 21, 2003 09:21pm | #1

   Try Fuhr International products - 355 is nice to work with. It is a self cross link acrylic. They have several products to choose from. Also from Target, the Oxford hybrids are pretty tough.  The PSL which you already mentioned is pretty nice stuff. The 355 has less smell then PSL and works great for me. With 355 you get cross link between coats if appliced with in 4 hours, and it's sandable in 20 minutes after shooting and recoat within about an hour.

1. 
   bcsmith | Jan 21, 2003 09:42pm | #2

   Thanks for the info.  I'm not sure I know what you mean by cross link, but I would guess it has something to do with burn-in?

   I think I read about the Fuhr at Joe Fusco's excellent site and I seem to remember that it was resistant to a solvent that Ultrastar wasn't, but that the Utrastar looked a little better/deeper.  It seems I also read that someone had a problem with Fuhr (I think it was brought out in a a thread also with Joe Fusco, but it wasn't Joe that had the problem) As I plan to use whichever looks best with no additional tint or sealer, I'm not sure that Fuhr will make the first test.  Based on your recommendation, it is back on the radar though.

   Thanks again,

   Bill Smith

1. 
   nonexxx | Jan 21, 2003 10:19pm | #3

   "cross link" is a chemical change in the compound that results in a new compound. Cross linked finishes are no longer soluable in the original solvent. Cross linking between coats of a finish is sort of like "burn in".   "burn in" is where the finish is actually melted by the solvents in the fresh coat. The new finish and the old blend into a single thicker layer.  This means the finish can also be easily damaged by at least one solvent. Lacquer, solvent or water based both have this weakness.  A cross linked finish will not react to the carrier solvent once fully linked.

   Fuhr 355 & Oxford hybrid are cross linking products.  Cross linking between coats makes it so that sanding is not required (same with burn in). The 355 cures about twice the speed of o.h.  The hybrid product is a mix of oil and water base compounds and gives a pretty nice wet look.  The 355 is acrylic and provides a yellow'ish tint but the wet look is not as pronounced o.h. I think this gives the 355 an edge on really strong grain wood like red and white oak.  But on wood such as cherry, I find that a coat of shellac first makes the 355 a much finer finish.

1. 
   ABenker | Jan 21, 2003 10:59pm | #4

   Can I also recommend adding a dye concentrate to Fuhr to slightly tint the product. Fuhr is a great product that I have had great success with also. On cherry, shellac and tinted 355 gives a great finish, that I believe is very comparable in appearance to oil.

2. 
   bcsmith | Jan 22, 2003 12:06am | #5

   Great explanation.   Fuhr is sounding better all the time.  I'm assuming there must be a solvent for the dried finish or I'll need to clean my gun with sandpaper.  Is the point of a cross link to make the solvent so specialized that it isn't likely to be spilled at the average dinner party or even the average fingernail polish sniffing party?   

   Regarding the hybrid, how much more risk of explosion is there? 

   Again, thanks for all your help.

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jan 22, 2003 03:42am | #6

   Bill - I don't usually like to refer a question to another site, but on the subject of cross-linking, solvent resistance, and 100% burn-in with waterborn (WB) finishes, I will recommend you ask someone that makes these finishes for a living. I started to compose a response to these issues, and realized that it's very complicated subject, especially when dealing with waterborn finishes. I figured I'd muddle the answer and cause more confusion. Instead, I'll recommend you post a question on the subject at this link - http://www.targetcoatings.com/msgboard.html

   Back to WB finishes. You asked about Sherwin Williams, and other recommendations. I've used the "KemAqua Hand-Rubbed" finish from Sherwin Williams and thought it pretty nice. I've also used Crystalac, Minwax Polycrylic, Fuhr, Target Coatings, and tested a few others (some didn't get past the initial testing).

   When trying a new brand, the first thing I do is apply the product to bare wood and a darkly stained piece of wood with large pores. On the bare wood I'm looking for excessive grain raise and coloring. On the darkly stained piece I look for a bluish tint in the finish or lack of clarity and it's ability to fill the pores. Some water-base finishes have a bluish color once dried - I find this a reason to exclude that brand - it looks horrible. Some do not produce a clear film - it looks like plastic - no good. Sometimes the finish will not fill the large pores on wood, instead it "bridges" the pores, leaving a white spot. Again, this fails the test. If the finish passes these first tests, then it gets some trial use.

   When you test different brands, try to do the tests side-by-side on the same board if you can. Nothing beats a direct comparison.

   If you want to stick with water-base exclusively, you'll find that most do not provide a "wet" or "warm" look on bare wood. With darker woods especially, this can be a real drawback. Some people recommend getting around this by first applying an oil or shellac to the bare wood, then the WB finish. Instead, I'd recommend using Target Coating's "EmTech" sealer. It's an oil-modified WB product that brings out the warmth of the wood like a blonde shellac. The oil modifier does not make the finish prone to explosion.

   For an "all-around" best finish, I like the Premium Spray Lacquer (PSL) from Target. I provided a description of it a few days ago on this forum and you can scroll down the list of finishing topcis and pull it up - I'd link to it if I knew how without losing this post.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

2. 
   nonexxx | Jan 22, 2003 04:46pm | #7

   The target coating site Paul S referred you to is good. The Oxford Hybrid is water based so there is the same low "explosion risk" with it as any water based coating.  Having done basically what Paul S described in evaluating finishes, my choice is 355 as an all around finish over PSL. 355 best met my criteria. Since this is a matter of personal choice and application specific criteria, try products from the vendors mentioned and you will find that they all are nice to shoot.  The side-by-side evaluation Paul described is a great way to do this. Most likely, you will end up using all the products on projects, and not junk any of them.

   Ccouple other issues not mentioned - the weather and what you're shooting with. WBs have differing application problems at climatic extreams. In the mid-west we have average weather and most WB coatings apply fine in the winter and summer. You might find a better choice if you live the dry/hot south west. Also my comments are based on conversion HVLP, you might find differing results with turbine hvlp.

   Many finishes self cross link as this usually leads to a more durable top coat. There are many solvents that will allow you to clean your gun. With most water based, you just need to rinse the gun with warm water to get the bulk of it clean, then shoot a gun cup of water. Finally, run about an ounce of denatured alcohol thru to remove water.  Dried finish can be removed with solvents suplied by the mfg. or products they can recommend.

   Also - if durability is the main consideration both Target and Fuhr make wb coatings more durable then PSL and 355. If you have a special wear or solvent concern, either company will take a phone call for technical consultation.

   Good luck, it is worth the effort the select a wb finish system.

3. 
   bcsmith | Jan 22, 2003 05:16pm | #8

   Thanks everyone for all the great info, I'm looking forward to getting started. 

   Nonexxx, you're from the midwest?  I'm in Bettendorf, Iowa where it's almost spring and we're finally getting some winter.  Boy, do we need precipitation, I'd even take snow.  I've got the feeling drought is our payback for enjoying the Big Ten football season so much. 

   Thanks again,

   Bill     

2. 
   luvmuskoka | Jan 22, 2003 06:00pm | #9

   Bill,

   Have you considered water-borne floor finish? I'm a 3rd generation floor guy who uses water-borne (Bona-Kemi) about 50% of the time. I've never sprayed it....but a world leading floor finish company from Russia sprays it with HVLP all the time. They are very secretive about their process.

   Concerning "O2 crosslinking" as explained to me by a chemist at Bona-Kemi, which btw advertises their 'Mega' product as such, "O2 crosslinking simply means that it air dries". Again, this from a chemist at Bona.

   Ditch