Replies

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Sep 06, 2002 08:31pm | #1

   What brand of tung oil did you use?

1. 
   frenchafry | Sep 07, 2002 12:57am | #2

   Minwax tung oil. Seems to do a good job, I've used it before but cannot remember how I treated the last coat.

1. 
   RSRose | Sep 07, 2002 02:27am | #3

   Joey,

   There is no need to rub out the finish that you're applying. You are already achieving the rubbing by applying very thin films of varnish each time. If you apply enough coats, you will get a surface build that will be glossy. In my opinion, it is quite attractive and needs no further treatment. But it may be too glossy for you. The only way for you to know, is to go ahead and use some kind of abrasive. It's a personal preference kind of thing.

   Let the finish harden for at least a week. It will be very soft (though hard to the touch) after a day or two. The rubbing effect will be very different after it cures more.

   Dry steel wool (0000) will give you a matte (satin) finish. You can control it some by the pressure and speed of rubbing. A nylon pad (white or gray) will have less cutting action and give a finish between matte and glossy. Using a lubricant with steel wool such as mineral spirits will moderate the abrasion and using paste wax as the lubricant will result in polishing and waxing all in one step.

   You need to try these methods on a scrap to decide which you like best. If you go too far, you only have to apply another application or 2 of the finish. (remove the wax first, if you've used it with mineral spirits).

   Rich

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Sep 07, 2002 09:41pm | #4

   Minwax Tung OIl Finish is not a pure tung oil. It is an oil/varnish blend containing little or no real tung oil. Its oil is linseed oil and it is little different from Watco Danish Oil.

   However, as it relates to your question, it makes little difference. Oil/vanish products are designed to give an "in the wood" finish as opposed to a film or "on the wood" finish. The oil heavy varnish penetrates the surface into the pores sealing them. The second coat completes the pore sealing. Further coats do not penetrate at all and when you wipe them off, you are removing almost 100% of what you applied. If you don't wipe completely, the oil will build up and leave a gummy mess frequently.

   A nice way to finish an oil/varnish finish is to apply a third coat and immediately sand it in using 400 W&D sandpaper. Let it sit and wipe it dry. You will now have a smooth finish. Wait a couple of weeks and apply a paste wax and you are done. Another choice is to apply a couple of coats of a thinned wipe-on varnish. This will give you quite a bit more long term protection.

   Here's some info on various "oil" finishes: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html

1. 
   frenchafry | Sep 07, 2002 10:12pm | #5

   Thanks Howie, That is ifo I didn't know.

2. 
   RSRose | Sep 07, 2002 10:55pm | #6

   Howie,

   I disagree with your advice regarding oil/varnish mixtures and with the Minwax product specifically which I have used for years on a wide variety of woods. After the wood has been sealed by the first 1 or 2 coats, additional applications leave a thin but significant film. This film hardens well because it is the varnish component of the mixture. After the initial coats, the oil in the mix simply seems to facilitate and lubricate as the thin film buildup procedes. There is no oil "build up" and no "gummy mess." Just a lovely high gloss, hard, thin, "close to the wood" finish.

   If the finisher tries to achieve it, a "padding" technique can be developed on the last several coats which is similar to padding shellac, but more forgiving, and leaves a glistening final coat which does not need further attention, unless a matte finish is desired.

   The Minwax product is a proprietary mixture which has a combination of Linseed and Tung oils and an alkyd varnish.

   Regarding "gummy" finishes, I particularly dislike Linseed oil as the only finish. Linseed oil never completely polymerizes. I have never seen a Linseed oil-treated surface that did not eventually become "gummy." This applies to finishes that were applied and never "refreshed" and to pieces that had Linseed oil applied in the classic (but misguided) recipe of "once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, once a year forever."

   I have never understood the fascination with Linseed oil, except that at one time it was one of the only treatments commonly available.

   Rich

1. 
   JAllen9301 | Sep 08, 2002 07:27am | #8

    Rich,

   just a point of curiosity for me... How would straight tung oil work with alkyd varnish and Naptha? I've seen lots of pictures in the reader galleries of the various woodworking magazines of furniture finished in a "tung oil/varnish/thinner" mix, but further investigation ususally leads to the discovery that they threw some linseed in there as well. Why do so many people want to do this? I'm with you, I'm not a fan of BLO as a finish. Does it aid drying time in the varnish mixture?

2. 
   RSRose | Sep 08, 2002 08:48pm | #9

   Lar,

   I've started some threads here regarding Tried and True. It was an absolute failure for me (and many others). Over a very long period (months) I could not get either the oil/varnish or the oil/beeswax mixture to polymerize. Some rags that I used to apply it 4 months ago are now just starting to stiffen.

   Jallen, I've used pure tung oil with mixtures of alkyd varnish, polyurethane varnish and naphtha or mineral oil. The various experiments have worked and failed, more or less. Then one day on a whim I picked up a can of the Minwax product and it has worked so well that I just kept using it. Like all good oil/varnish concoctions it is just about fool proof (and Lord knows, I need that). But here's a secret: The contents of a can must be used within about 2 weeks of the can's being opened. Otherwise polymerization, evaporation, other chemical changes of the mixture in the can change its characteristics so much that it's useless (to me, at least). I suppose that pouring it into a plastic bottle that can be squeezed to get all the air out before closing, or other measures to form an oxygen barrier above the liquid might keep the mixture "fresh." But I've never bothered to try. I've just bought a new can for any particular finishing job and used it up.

   Rich

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Sep 09, 2002 08:02pm | #11

   Dick, my main point about oil/varnish finishes is that they are designed to be penetrating finishes, not film finishes. Any build you get will be very, very soft because of the high concentration of oil in the product. No way around this, it's just chemistry. I use it a lot whenever I want the "danish oil" look and feel. If I wanted to pad anything on, shellac would be my choice.

   If a film finish is desired, then there are other products that will do this better giving more durability and more depth.

   I couldn't agree with you more about Tried&True. Polymerized linseed oil is still oil with all it's deficiencies. Lot's of better products to use IMO.

4. 
   RSRose | Sep 09, 2002 08:32pm | #12

   Howie,

   "my main point about oil/varnish finishes is that they are designed to be penetrating finishes, not film finishes. Any build you get will be very, very soft because of the high concentration of oil in the product. No way around this, it's just chemistry."

   We continue to fundamentally disagree about this issue. In my shop, oil/varnish applied in many coats results in a hard, durable film of physical thickness related only to the number of applications.

   This business about classifying them as penetrating finishes ONLY is wrong. I've addressed this in another post.

   As I write this I am examining two Bubinga tables. One finished with sprayed nitrocellulose, one with Minwax Tung Oil Finish. They have a slightly different look, but their similarities are more striking than their differences. I believe the oil/varnish finish (6 coats) has a harder surface with a higher sheen. I can leave a mark on each with my thumbnail, pushing as hard as possible (the mark is a burnish) but I can't scratch either. They are both lovely, professional grade finishes.

   Rich

   Edited 9/9/2002 1:33:46 PM ET by Rich Rose

5. 
   JohnKrist | Sep 10, 2002 04:45pm | #13

    

   For what its worth, I have finished 3 8' tables with Polymerized Tung Oil from Sutherland Welles over the last three months. This is not a commercial endorsement, but I rapidly got the aged effect I wanted. While the PTO is marketed as a wipe-on, and it won't dry as a film since it lacks the metal driers added to make BLO dry faster, I found the best way to put it on was to cut it with either naphtha or MS 3 or 2:1 and then rub it on with 600 wet/dry paper. It took a bit of practice to keep the right amount of product under the paper to keep it from sticking, but not much. I was able to rapidly apply the product in small areas-about 8"x8"-and sand until dry, and cover the entire table in about 30min or less. The best part for me was that it was dry and really smooth immediately, with an antique patina that felt aged. I had no problem putting on a coat a day, and might have been able to do two in a day if I had been able to stay on that one project. It worked best in moderate temps and humidity; don’t try it in the sun.

   This technique is roughly analogous to the process Lon Schelling wrote about in a recent FW, but without the "slurry" he makes to fill pores. PTO is rather expensive, but since its cut 3:1, I think that it works out to be about the same as most other products. PTO has gotten good marks for durability when built up, from what I read in Flexner’s book. I posted a pic of one table in the Gallery: “Nitric Acid on table (II)”. I too have had bad times with BLO and won’t use it.

   John

2. 
   Lar55 | Sep 08, 2002 06:37am | #7

   Have you used Tried and True Danish, Linseed or Varnish?  After using Tried and True I would never use Watco again.  What's nice about the Tried and True products is no mixing that with that or this with this.  It's straight out of the can and very very light coats.  Not the typical soaking the wood with the oil.  Make sure to apply very light coats so you get a quicker drying time.  Alot of the pros are now using it. http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/

   Lar

3. 
   Hempstalk | Sep 09, 2002 12:27am | #10

   Joey.  I'm going to agree with Rich and say that multiple coats beyond the first two or three do make a significant difference.  I been building custom furniture for a living for many years and have oiled hundreds of projects and over this time I've experimented with many oil varnish combinations as well as making my own.  If I want a quick oil finish ,which by the way is nowhere as fast as spraying a film finish, I use a minwax product straight from the can.  I don't use their original tung oil I use their "antique oil" finish.  I find that it builds faster probably because of a higher varnish content in the mixture.  Can't say for sure but it does build faster in my type of application.   Oil finishes really don't give that much protection for heavy use items so if a customer likes the oil finish and it's to be used on a table top for instance you can A) simply add some varnish to the antique oil which takes the least amount of fooling around and experimenting to know what proportions you like to work with or B) you make your own oil varnish combination.  If you make your own combination you can mix it to suite your own specific needs.  If you want a really hard finish with more protection then add more varnish or use the varnish with a little thinner as a wiping varnish.  Keep in mind every time you change the mixture the finish will react somewhat different in use.  Always experiment on scraps of the same species sanded to the same grit as the finished piece.    By this time in your project the oil has penetrated and you should have a nice film building.   I would continue to add a few more coats straight from the can or add a little more varnish.   What I like to do  is try to leave a really thin coat on the piece since little will actually penetrate into the wood at this point.  Don't try to buff all the finish off.  You can do this by taking the oil off with a rag saturated lightly in oil.  When I say thin coat I mean really thin.  Let this dry well before applying the next coat.  You can sand with 400 between coats or use synthetic steel wool. Or you can opt to not sand at all between coats.  I apply all my coats (usually 6) sanding only if the finish feels rough or has something in it or has a high varnish content.  Keep in mind if your using a high varnish content oil you will want to sand between coats to help with the bonding of one layer to the next.  When all the coats of finish have been applied let the piece dry for about a week or more and rub the finish with a good steel wool (not all steel wools are equal) and wax.  This will give you a nice soft satin look.  If you want a gloss finish ,which I very rarely if ever do, with oil you can polish the finish up.  There are a few reasons you would probably never want to polish up an oil finish.  One is the finish isn't tough and will look all scratched up in no time.  The higher the gloss the more flaws you see.  Second is the reason for going through all the labour of an oil finish is for that soft satin close to the wood feel an oil finish gives in my opinion at least.  If you want gloss try a lacquer or some other type of film finish.  A little experimenting and reading up on oil will help you make the right decisions for you intended application.  Take a look at the books already mentioned.  Sorry if I've rambled on but I wasn't sure how much you wanted to know or how much you already new.

1. 
   frenchafry | Sep 11, 2002 07:00am | #14

   I really appreciated your views on finish. By now I have a really glossy finish but was concerned about the scratching that could take place. My last coat of oil was 4 days ago, so after it's been sitting for 7-10 days I'll satin it out with 0000 and wax. I'm going to look for a dark paste wax so as not to get white spots in the areas of the oak that seem to soak up the finish.

1. 
   Hempstalk | Sep 11, 2002 08:04am | #15

   Joey.  Don't be to concerned with scratching.  The finish is pretty tough but with use it will show scratching more so than a satin finish.  If you prefer the gloss look just put a coat of wax on with a soft cloth.  If in time it gets to scratchy for you you can apply another coat of wax with steel wool and make it satin.  If your fairly new to tung oil and this is a piece for yourself  then it might be nice to see how the gloss holds up for 6 months or so then rub it to satin and try that.  See which one you prefer.  One comment on the wax.  If you use a wax that doesn't match you color it will stay in the pores and actually highlight them.  This can have a good effect if that's what your after.  I've been working Padauk for some months now and because of it's open grain and it's red color it can be difficult to wax.  When waxing this particular species I apply the wax very sparingly so as to not force any into the pores.  A very, very thin coat.  It might take two coat of wax to get the look your after but it beat the hell out of trying to get wax out of the pores.  Since Oak has very open grain I think this should work well for you.  Give it a try.   I've found Goddards and Liberon's Black Bison to be two very good waxes.  I personally don't find all waxes to be the same quality which will effect the final look as well.

1. 
   frenchafry | Sep 12, 2002 03:39am | #16

   Thanks, I've decided to take your advice. After all I can always change it later. Yes the piece is a stickley coffee table from quarter sawn oak. I dyed the wood with a red tint mixed with denatured. This idea came from an article from the magazine. Then I stained it with special walnut and finally several coats of the tung oil from minwax. The stain was also minwax. So, The piece came out very nice. Similar to the varnish color they used in the early 1900's. The red tint actually exposes the ray fleck of the quarter sawn nicely. Be careful with the dye if you have never tried it. It tends to lap and when you go over it to even out the color it continues to get darker. I had to go over the whole piece with denatured on a rag to lighten the color prior to putting the oil.