I have heard of people turning their dovetail saws. Does anyone know how this is done. How do you know if a saw needs tuning.
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Replies
Will,
Possibly it was a reference to a musical saw, mine is a see-sharp .Hah, hah ha hahahah....
What's the sound you hear when you drop a planer down a mine shaft? A-flat-miner.
Gotta go now, my meds are running low...
Cheers,
Ray Pine
I thought about replying to this in the a.m. and wondered what kind of reponse it would get. I believe that "tuning" refers to making the teeth sharper than they could possibly be if stamped out by a machine. Also I think that a lot of time some of the "too much set/ too wide kerf" condition that nearly always appears when the saw is made by a machine, is reduced in the tuning process. I'll point out that I'm not an expert - the reason I think this is because I've read it, talked to Mr. Tom Law about it on the telephone, and have a small amount of experience.
If I make a new handle for a dovetail saw, I will mess with it for hours and days on end with rasps, carving tools, sandpaper, dremel tools, etc. until the curves and indentations feel exactly right in my hand. I imagine that you could think of that process as "tuning," as well. good luck, Ed
One thing more: "How do you know if your saw needs tuning?" I once bought one of those "Paragon" dovetail saws from Garret Wade. It sucked in nearly every possible way. First it was filed crosscut, not rip, and second the teeth were "sideways," for lack of a better term, due to the way they had been stamped, and it would not cut straight. Third, there was a heavy coat of lacquer on the blade, and fourth the handle was loose and could not be sufficiently tightened, and fifth the brass spine was loose. I almost had a hand tool version of a "Matthew Schenker Moment" (AKA: "MSM") just comprehending the sheer breadth and comprehensiveness of the suckiness of this "Dovetail Saw." Needless to say it was a good candidate for tuning. Now it has a new dogwood handle that fits my hand, every trace of the "Made in France" stamp is removed, and the teeth are filed rip, it has a minimal amount of set, and it works real good. And unlike a Japanese saw, I can sharpen it whenever I want. Well, as long as I can find the "coke bottle" lens magnifying glasses, that is. Take care, Ed
Edited 11/28/2005 10:52 pm by EdHarrison
Actually, tuning refers to A: a proper sharpening (jointing, filing, setting), and B: reducing the set of the saw.
When I bought my LieNielsen DT Saw, Rob Cosman took one or two swipes along the side of the blad with a fine diamond stone, to just ease off the set of the teeth.
The idea is that the narrower kerf helps the saw track straighter.
If you've seen Rob's work, you know that his word is gospel on dovetails.The older I get, the better I was....
Thanks again for the helpful comments. The set of the teeth is the first thing I want to refine. I have seen Rob cut dovetails at the Toronto wood show last week and that's where I first heard of tuning a saw. He let me try his LN dovetail saw and one of the first things I did when I got home was compare my saws to his LN. I have a set of PAX dovetail saws, Rip and Crosscut, and some LV Japanese saws. Its rather frustrating that the cheapest saw, the small rip Dozuki ($20), was the closest to Robs LN ($125). I then used it to cut several sets of dovetails per Robs DVD. The best dovetail work that I have done. I now want to see what I need to do to get the same level of performance from my two pax saws. Is it as simple as using a stone on the flat side to reduce set?
It may be that simple, Will, to reduce some of the set by slightly stoning the sides of the teeth. I'm afraid of giving you bad advice because I'm not an expert here, but for me, personally, adjusting the set is part and parcel of the sharpening process. I use the technique in the Hand Saw Sharpening video hosted by Tom Law. Going through that propcedure, there have been times when I had to completely take the set out of a saw, with a small peen hammer, and put it back in the way I wanted it. The philosophy expressed in Anthony Guidice's The Seven Essentials of Woodworking - that you need minimal set in rip-filed saws for joinery in mostly kiln-dried North American hardwoods - also influences my thinking in tuning dovetail saws. Good luck. BTW - a quick tip to improve performance is to get a product called "Gulf Wax" - nearly pure parafin wax - from the canning section of your supermarket and rub that on your saws. You wouldn't believe how much it helps.
To tune a dovetail saw, you first see if it needs it. Sometimes sharpening by a competent person is enough, often it isn't... Often there are slight variables introduced that can affect the performance.
Tuning a dovetail saw.
First thing is to test it to see if it actually needs to be 'tuned'. Draw a line on a board (in the proper direction of the grain RE: rip vs. crosscut) then saw to the line to the full depth of the saw (sawing to its full depth helps to find out how its cutting). Does the saw track to the line easily? Does it wander aimlessly, making it difficult to follow the line? Does it always track to one side? Or, does it bind in the kerf? How easy is the saw to start? Does it cut faster or slower than what is comfortable for you? Are the surfaces left behind smooth or rough?
Do this a few times, and see if the results are repeatable. Once you've determined what of these symptoms are occurring, the first thing to check is your technique. Barring any faults there, here's a few tips to get your saw humming along RE the points made above...
The saw tracks to the line easily. Hey, good! Your job is done. Get sawing!
The wanders both to the left and to the right, making it difficult to follow the line. Probably too much set. To tune - lightly stone (side-dress) each side of the teeth with a fine carborundum stone (or similar) and re-test until it tracks true.
The saw always tracks to one side. There is probably more set on one side of the saw than on the other. To tune - lightly stone (side-dress) the teeth on the side of the saw that it is tracking towards, and test. Repeat until the saw cuts true (should only take a couple swipes of the stone).
The saw binds in the kerf. Probably too little set. To tune, first try wax the blade with paste wax to see if that helps... if not, you will need to re-set the teeth of the saw and tune according to the above.
The saw starts hard. Could be either technique or sharpening-related. To test technique, try first to lift about half of the weight of the saw while starting. Then try lower the initial angle you are cutting at. Try pulling the saw for the first couple strokes. To tune means to lightly resharpen the teeth, increasing the rake angle on them to where the saw starts faster. There is a trade-off here - a steeper rake angle will cut faster but be harder to start, where a shallower angle will be easier to start but not cut as fast. Also remember that a freshly sharpened saw might be a bit harder to start.
The surfaces left behind are rough... This is probably from an unequally set tooth... The way I usually sharpen a saw is to give it just a hair too much set, then side-dress it back into compliance. This helps to smooth out the roughness left behind. Otherwise, it may simply be too coarse of a saw to leave a very fine finish behind....
On setting the teeth - not much set is required on a dovetail saw, if any - but if too much side-dressing is done, binding can occur, esp. in soft or wet woods. I know several who put no set whatsoever on their dovetail saws, other than the little that is introduced incidentally through the sharpening process. But this usually is done by those with a good deal of experience, and also working in dry hardwoods...
I hope this has been of some help... There's a bunch more garbage like this written on my web site - see http://www.norsewoodsmith.com.
Leif
Edited 11/30/2005 3:36 pm ET by LHanson
G'day,
Seems like a good description, will try it out this weekend.
I have a Pax, love the blade but the handle is pretty lousy - it just doesnt seem to position the hand comfortably for me. I recently bought an old Diston backsaw with an open handle that I rather like, so I suspect that there might be a new handle on the Pax soon.
Dave
Thanks. This is good stuff. I think I will follow through on my PAX rip cut dovetail saw this weekend.
I have already seen your good web pages. I plan to use your plane float insturctions this winter. Thanks
I will keep you posted on how my saw tuneup goes.
>Sometimes sharpening by a competent person is enough<
Ah gee! a competent person? How 'bout a ham-fisted beginner? Just kidding,...but I think there's something to be said for learning how to sharpen saws yourself, even if you're not that good at it the first few times.
I recently restored a Jackson back saw (similar to the one on your web site) and sharpened and tuned it myself. What a great feeling, using a saw that you've sharpened and tuned yourself. I felt exactly the same way as when I first learned to tune a guitar without any kind of tuner or electronic aids - just getting it into standard tuning by remembering what each string was "supposed" to sound like. Then checking it and finding it pretty damn close to correct,..... A great feeling of freedom and independence there. Learning to sharpen saws is the same way, but it takes practice, like anything else.
Nice web site - I added it to my list of woodworking sites.
On the subject of tuning a saw for joinery work, esp. a rip filed saw, I will make one more comment to all of the other excellent comments here. On a new saw, and I think this is all new saws but am not certain, the teeth are set by a setting machine. It is fast and accurate, but it achieves the set by pounding the tooth to the side. When this is done, it distorts the metal, fattens it if you will, at the base of the gullet. What this means is that the saw will bind a bit in the kerf becuase that fat gullet area is not narrower than the set, or perhpas not narrower enough. The fix is to fully sharpen the saw so that the cutting of teeth, the refiling, gets below the original gullet and removes the distorted metal.I seem to recall that at North bennet Street school, they recommended an initial refiling, even of the LN saws. I also seem to recall that this was when Tom Law still filing, which he is no longer doing for others.I use a LN gent's saw for DTs. At first it was nothing special, and I was disappointed. I sent it with very low mileage to Mr. Law, and spoke with him, and when it came back, it was wonderful; a fully different feel.Take a close look at your new saw and see if you can't see the distortion of the metal at the base of the gullet, and if so, this may be the problem.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
MMMMMMMMM, ham!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Lief rocks.
I echo his remarks that tuning, as distinct from sharpening, is a matter of optimizing your saws for the work you do. This may or may not be minor work.
Just for example, if you work very thin stock, you need a finely pitched saw. If that stock (say drawer sides) is typically a soft or softer hard wood (like tulip) you may prefer a very low (square) rake v. a saw that cuts harder woods (be it your carcass saw or the saw that cuts the half blinds in drawer fronts) that would benefit from higher (positive) rake (i.e. teeth laid back from the cut).
The things guys call tenon saws - those 14" saws that suck for tenons, may benefit from a pretty good deal of rake to allow them to crosscut occassionally. It also may be a good idea to file such a saw x-cut. My preference is 20 degrees rake, 20 degrees fleam.
The only thing I'd like to add to what Lief has said is that sometimes manufacturers stamp out teeth or do all their shaping from one side. If your saw isn't tracking beautifully, before you mess with the set, its sometimes helpful to make one file pass across each tooth on the side the saw is pulling toward.
Lastly, I'd like to add my vote for set. I think a little set is a good thing, while no set is a crutch for people who don't know how to saw. So I say leave the set alone- don't bang it out unless its excessive. It will disappear as you resharpen anyway. In a few years it will be gone, and by that time you will be a good sawyer, and you'll know exactly how much to put in.
FWIW, I have a crown gent's saw that had a serious burr on one side of the blade and way too much set. I filed that one side and that helped, but I also had to knock some set out. So IME, it happens that manufacturers screw these things up.
Adam
Adam, I have enjoyed your series of articles in Popwood. I hope they let you keep going with that! Maybe an article on saw doctoring from back in the eighteenth century? Colonial bow-saws? Just ideas. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. PW has a bizzarre and inscrutable commitment to the Arts&Mysteries column. It was Chris Schwarz' idea, so unless I screw it up, I don't see him cancelling it.
Adam
Thanks for the web site.
Very nice.
Thanks. I getting the idea that its just that simple. The wax idea is a good one. I use canning wax for my plane soles, saw blades and on screws in before driving them into hardwood by hand. I also use it an any glue up jigs to help releasing the item after glue has dried. Very useful hunk of wax.
Will, you a TO local?
There aren't many of us from the GTA around here.The older I get, the better I was....
Glade to meet you on line. I am an East Yorker.
Try going to LV store on Saterday morning. There are lots of us out there.
Which one? Scarborough or North York?
I live in Barrie, but work in Mississauga. So I'm usually at the NY store when I go (during the week).The older I get, the better I was....
East York is East York, Just north of the Danforth west of Scarbough
I know about East York. I meant which store!
I even know where Leaside is....
In fact, I grew up in York, which has since been assimilated....The older I get, the better I was....
Has LN degraded the original Independence saw somehow? They didn't need any tunning to do good work out of the box. I heard Klaus bough a dozen, so I bought three. Happy, happy.
I wouldn't wax a joinery saw, though a partial bond should be enough in most cases. Just don't like the thought of it.
A lot of the tips from experts (I'm not talking about the stuff here particularly), come from answering the weird question that come up at seminars. People press you for an answer you never even knew was a question, and something gets made up, and before you know it it has been repeated, and now it's gospel. Most folks who do seminars learned most of what they can say about it from what they learned after they were asked to do the seminars.
Sure the saw may have the wrong set, but it can also just be lousy technique that binds the blade. Practice makes perfect. Sometimes.
I don't think the've degraded it. Just that everything could use a little TLC.
I bought my DT saw at a WW'king show earlier in the year. Rob Cosman does the demos and rep work at the show. He showed how well the saw works out of the box, but then "tweaks it" with his diamond stone, to just give it that little bit less set. After having seen his work live and in person, I can't fault his technique or results, so I'm willing to emulate him.
I bought a carcass saw from Woodcraft a few months later. Since it was crosscut, I didn't feel the need to reduce the set beyond what was already there. It works like a dream too.
The older I get, the better I was....
I did not mean that anything special happens at the store, its just ever time I go in I end up chatting with different people usually about a tool, or projects. Sometimes it like a country store.
Wow are you lucky, I bought the whole set of those "frog" red dyed immitation saws that fit a 12 year olds hand and cut worse than a K mart butter knife. I must say that it was one of the very few (3) bad tool choices that I have made (ryoby pl180 router, ridgid 14" bs). Is there life after GW, can they be reclaimed to a better functionality?
I am now looking at Andria and several private makers in the $115 to $175 range(maybe TN) for a very good dovetail and a deep tenon set of rips. Good advice is very welcome. Thanks, Pat
Well, you know, they were going to tune it up when it was made in that little French factory but just gave up.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
My lie nielson saw cam with instructions on how to sharpen and maintain, give them a call, I`am sure they can send you a copy.
good luck...
actually, all the instructions are on the website, under the tool descriptions.
no pictures/diagrams, but the same instructions as you get in the box.The older I get, the better I was....
"Tuning" a DT saw may also refer to refiling and resetting the teeth to a rip profile since many are produced in a crosscut profile.
Mike Hennessy
A reasonable primer is located here...
http://www.vintagesaws.com
The article on sharpening does a good job
of linking theory and "how to"
They sell saws and supplies as well.
Nice people, no affiliation
I would like to thank everyone for their help on this. Just to provide an update. I got a diamond plate a couple of weeks ago. But no time to try it on my dovetail saw. A few days ago I picked up the latest issue of fine woodworking. What luck! Not only did it review dovetail saws, it had a article on how to "tune one up". I followed the instructions and I now have a dove tail saw that tracks straight and true.
I have to wounder if they take article ideas from what is discussed in this forum. This has happened a few times latetly for me. I find myself interested in a subject and an article shows up.
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