Is it normal when using a scraper on end grain to hollow a bowl to have the tool chatter considerably, or is there something wrong with my technique.
Thank You
_DAVID R. WARNER, JR
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Replies
Try a lighter cut, make sure your scraper is supported as close to the tip as is possible.
If it's harmonic chatter, change the speed you're turning at, that may help a bit.
Roanoke VA
David -
As Leon said, the scraper has to be well supported. Far off the tool rest you need a very heavy tool. How big (thick) is the one you're using?
Sharp, sharp and more sharp. Again, per Leon's reply, light cuts. Just bring off the very minum shavings. More time spent perfecting the technique = less time finishing that pesky end grain.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Thanks, Dennis, I'd forgotten the heavy tool part.
FWIW, I've got a nice one from Packard Woodworks http://www.packardwoodworks.com/ -- nice folks to deal with.
If you've a hankering to make your own, Admiral Steel http://www.admiralsteel.com/ will sell several different grades of steel from O-1 to A-2 and D-2 for reasonable rates.Leon Jester
Roanoke VA
Leon -
At one of the turner's club meetings they had a demonstration by several turners on the type of equipment and tools they use to do hollow vessel turning. Besides the proprietary boring bar setups, one old timer had a square piece of bar stock about 1" thick with a scraping type tool brazed or welded to the end. The thing was about 4' long!
That means business. Better have a super strong chuck!! (grin)
Thanks for the tip on the tool blank sources. I've been meaning to try grinding some of my own tools but haven't gotten a round tuit............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
A quick question on an unrelated topic? About a month ago I started playing around making Shaker style knobs out of cherry and oak. I bought a Jacobs style chuck with a morse taper but the knobs won't stay put and tightening the chuck too much only distorts the goesinto part. Any suggestions?
I've never used that kind of chuck on my lathe BG (Jacobs). Is it a standard drill chuck or one made especially for turning? The collet type chucks that are designed more for turning than gripping a drill bit (I think) provide a little more purchase on the stock and perhaps wouldn't distort the spigot on the work piece so much if you were to reef down on them. You might try putting some masking tape around the spigot of the work piece to provide more friction between the chuck jaws and the spigot.
Other than that I don't have enough (any) experience using those kinds of chucks to give you much more advice. Sorry.
I'd also try turning the knob from a bigger piece of material held in a regular turning chuck, then turn down the spigot and part off.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
Maybe I'm using the wrong thing ...
http://www.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/product_family.asp?family%5Fid=3975&gift=False&mscssid=CC0F4ABFAEE54EBE9EDFDFE3FC4CD7FD
it's made for the tailstock..but I figured it would work in the headstock to hold the knob/pull..for rounding over/sloping the face of the knob/pull. It is the 1/2" morse #2 in the picture.
Edited 10/8/2004 1:17 pm ET by BG
BG -
Yeah, those kinds of chucks are designed to hold drill bits. The jaws are machined so they bite with a narrow edge. As I said, I've seen "collet" chucks (but never used or own one) that appear to have jaws with broader gripping surfaces.
Just did a search on the Woodcraft site for "collet chuck" - They have more than the three or four jaws of a drill chuck. Plus you shouldn't need a terribly tight grip on the piece of you take shallow light cuts with a well sharpened tool. I've used jam chucks with small boxes with nothing but a friction fit of the workpiece onto the jam chuck.
Collet chucks look something like a router bit chuck. They don't have but a very narrow range of gripping size, in fact if I'm not mistaken they're only designed to grip a certain diameter. Like 1/4" or so. That way the jaws can be machined to provide a more even broader gripping surface.
Hope that helps.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Try a screw chuck. You can make your own with a screw suitable for the knob etc you are turning.
_DAVID R. WARNER, JR
David,
I am planning on using that technique with the knobs that are flat on the back...but with a post on the back side I'm not sure I'd have adequate support for turning with just a screw. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what your suggesting. thanks
BG -
Did you look into the collet chucks? If you turn the tenon to a constant specific diameter they should work quite well.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
Yes, I did look at the collet chucks over at Woodcraft and it seems like that is the solution for holding the knobs while turning....It also costs a minimun of about $100 between the chuck and one collet....those knobs I wanted were starting to get pretty expensive. So I've kinda put the collet chuck and collets on the 'look for used list' and see if there are/were some other alternatives or approaches to the task.
For instance, what if I used my 4 jaw chuck and tailstock to round the stock and then pull back the tailstock and use the stock support jig I made to support the stock while I shape each piece and cut off....sliding/moving the jig toward the 4 jaw chuck after each piece is shaped. I appologize for not using the correct terminology but hopefully the concept comes across.
One of the things I'm good at is discovering new and more expensive ways to do things...ya know, anything to save a buck. By the time I'm finished these knobs will probably cost well over $300 and look like crap.
Edited 10/10/2004 7:02 am ET by BG
BG -
Egads, I didn't even look at the prices on the collet chucks. Had no idea they were so expensive.
You're on the right track, I think, by saving money and turning multiple knobs off one blank using the 4 jaw chuck the way you describe, if I understand you correctly - mounting a long workpiece in the lathe between centers, working from the tailstock end to shape the knob then turn the tenon and part off leaving a little nubbin at the tail stock end.
If that's the case, do you have the resources to make or build a steady rest to hold the workpiece once the tail stock is withdrawn? If so you could turn the end of the knobs while in the chuck.
The only hard part I see is making sure the tenons are a consistent diameter. I saw a trick in a turning article once where a guy took an old ope end wrench of the size required for the tenons and ground it to make a tool cut tenons of exactly the same size.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
You have described the process I'm picturing quite well. I'm on my second version of the 'steady rest' jig ...I used skate board wheels (son lives in Philly now) that are kinda wide but my daughter would have noticed three missing wheels from her skates....lol. I'll probably start with a piece of stock that is about 16-18" long and, because of the skate board wheels, waste about 4" on one end. BTW, the last time I bought shaker style knobs Rockler was having a close out sale and a package of two cost 87 cents. My wife tends to give me about 50 cents an hour for the work I do around here...so these could be very profitable....lol
BG~-
Bite the bullet and go buy some in line skate wheels! (grin). Even the lesser expensive ones have fairly good bearings (they kinda have to be considering the environment they work in). They're narrower than skate board wheels. At the time I built mine I was fortunate to be working on a project where I had access to a waterjet cutting machine. Took the guy a plate of 3/8" cold rolled steel and he cut out all the parts for me. I then welded things together (with my "sleasy" wire feed (grin)).
As I recall the axle bore for the in line wheels is a standard bolt size making assembly a lot easier. Just be sure to double nut the bolt/axle so it won't turn loose on ya.
Unfortunately I built my first steady rest to fit the little Delta lathe I had at the time. Haven't gotten around to modifying it to fit the newer lathe with larger swing.
Good luck. I'll post a picture of mine if you're interested.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
BG excuse my 10c worth but step back for a moment, you and dennis are talking all this hardware to turn shaker knobs or pegs ?As has been suggested a screw chuck ,a large enough crosssection blank and a light touch is all that is required to turn shaker knobs .To turn the tenon hold the parting tool in one hand and calipers or appropriate sized open end wrench in the other.The shakers probably used a cup chuck.Seriously you will find that with practice from centered blank to burnished knob 3-4 mins is easy to attain .Wood turning is all about sequence of cuts and ingenuity in the way you hold the blank.It can be very efficiant done on a low tech way .Remember turned objects have been found in the pyramids!
Jako,
Appreciate your comments and suggestions and yes, it's the techniques, process steps, etc. that really count. For future reference, however, you don't need to flash the big bankroll (10c) to get my attention....a nickel or even two cents will do....lol
BG -
Just curious since no one seems to get the sysop here to initiate a turning section on the forum I'll branch off onto another issue.
What's your finish of choice for your turning projects? Do you do much spalted wood turning? I'm struggling with getting a nice finish on some fantastically beautiful spalted maple. So far I've tried stabalizing the spalted areas with shellac when I'm close to the finished profile. Saturating the piece with tung oil and letting it cure for at least 48 hours has helped, too.
Perhaps others dropping in have some ideas???
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis.
"What's your finish of choice for your turning projects?"
Almost everything I have turned thus far has been part of another project (legs, spindles, etc) and, therefore, the finish is different. I have not done any vessels, bowls or even candle stick holders yet.
Hi Dennis I have had luck using pre-cat nitrocellulose wiped on with a rag fairly heavily(as a stabilizer) ,then finish turning and the final finish of pre-cat steel wooled and waxed. I hope you protect yourself from the spores from the spalted wood!
Hi Jako ....
Have never used pre-cat laquer. Worked on a project one time where the painters were using quite a bit of it and they advised me that it was "nasty stuff" so didn't think I wanted to get involved with it.
As for stabalizing spalted wood, I started night before last to experiment with shellac. Cut it back to a 1 1/2lb strength and gob quite a bit on wiping off the excess but letting plenty soak into the soft punky areas. Then tonight after shellacing a couple pieces I decided to use some Daly's wood filler as well. That has to dry at least 8 hours before starting the sanding process so can't say how that works yet.
Some of the folx in the turning club here locally have mentioned using both the laquer and shellac. I also tried tung oil (Daly's Ben Matte which is essentially a proprietary tung oil preparation). Wet sanding from 220 up to 400 produces a pretty good hard finish. Ben Matte is supposed to be food safe after 24 hours curing time but it still has a lingering 'aroma' for several days.
Thanks for the reply ...
Yeah, it's dust mask city when working with this stuff!!! Will be a couple weeks before I get the DC plumbed and opeartional.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
The last lamp I turned was finished with shellac on a pad, using the hand wheel to turn it on the lathe. I saturated it fairly heavily to start then built up the finish off and on for about two days until I was satisfied with it's appearance.
The lamp I did a couple of years ago was finished on the lathe with a mixture of raw tung, raw linseed, turps and japan drier after staining.
When I finish turning a lamp, I mount it between centers in the cord hole using a cone I've turned jammed into the MT drive center and a live center.
Bowls that might be used for foodstuff I finish with plain beeswax. Non-food bowls get whatever finish strikes my fancy.
Spindle stuff gets finished with whatever I'm using on the rest of the project (i.e., legs to a table, etc.), although I sand them on the lathe.Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Thanks, Leon, for the description of your finishes for turning projects.
I, too, like a beeswax finish for anything destined to contain items that might be ingested. On the advice of some of the books I've read about using beeswax, I melted a chunk and mixed it with mineral oil to make it a little easier to apply with a rag. However I've found over time that some of the pieces I have in the kitchen will water spot and need to be re-polised from time to time using a mineral oil/beeswax mix like this.
I'm leaning towards tung oil for lots of the stuff I'm doing right now. The wet sanding process serves well to help fill the pores to provide a nice level finish.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I mostly make segmented salad serving bowls and I use a product from Lee Valley as pictured below. The tin lasts me about 15-20 large salad serving bowls, but then again I like to use more than directed. And it brings a great scent into the shop while finishing. I think it turns out great. I apply one coat with the lathe on a medium speed and polish that with a paper towel then turn off the lathe and wipe on a thick coat and let it dry for a few minutes then turn on the lathe again and apply a paper towel until the bowl is smooth.
Adam
View Image
This hard paste wax is ideally suited for protecting wooden cutting boards, butchers' blocks, salad bowls, and wooden serving utensils.
Made from a blend of all-natural beeswax, carnauba wax and citrus oils, it dries to a hard, clear, food-safe finish.
An effective wax with a pleasant orange scent. 150 grams (5 oz) in a metal can.
HOW DO I GET SOOM OF THIS LEE VALLEY PASTE WAX
You can easily make your own collet chuck. Just mount a block on a faceplate and drill it (on center) for a large tenon. Now use a block (say 2x2) to turn a tenon that fits tightly into your block and turn it to a cylinder on the right of the tenon. Drill the end of the cylinder to match the tenon size on the end of your knobs (but drill it about twice the depth of your tenons). Use a beading tool to make a small groove about 1/4" back from the right hand end of your cylinder that is the right width for a common screw clamp (like you would use to clamp a hose fitting). Now use a fine toothed saw (handsaw or hacksaw or backsaw) to cut slots into the walls of the cylinder to near the full depth of the hole (that matches your tenons for your knobs). Now mount the large tenon on your new collet chuck into the matching hole in the face plate mounted block with glue. Put the screw clamp around the slotted sides of your chuck so that it fits into the groove that you made for it and slide one of your knobs into the chuck. Now tighten the screw clamp so that it squeezes the fingers that you made when you slotted the sides of the tubular right hand side of the chuck around the tenon of the knob. It should hold quite firmly. Such chucks have been used for centuries this is not new technology. The older ones used steel rings and tapered contours instead of the simpler screw clamps though.
Edited 10/16/2004 12:36 am ET by Clay
Edited 10/16/2004 12:37 am ET by Clay
Clay,
Thanks for taking the time to spell out that solution for me.
You are welcome ... enjoy!
Clay
Might try turning the tenon end to diameter first, then wrapping it in a strip of sandpaper, putting it in the chuck.
Last time I turned pegs, I used my small diameter 4-prong drive center -- http://www.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/product_family.asp?family%5Fid=3841&gift=False&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D10000%26Tree%3D%2CDepartments&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D1030%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tree%3D0%2CWoodturning&2=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D2087%26menu%5Fid%3D%26Tree%3D1%2CAccessories%20%2D%20Woodturning&Gift=False&mscssid=B8635200AD724253864AC7244844FEA1 -- turned the tenon on the drive center end and then sheared the front end (live center end) off, sanded it smooth.Leon Jester
Roanoke VA
Leon,
That is the technique I've resorted too...leaving an extra nub on the front end and working between two centers....and then removing the nub to a finished product. I just thought there must be an easier way..
When I have made such knobs I have turned them between centers, then stuck the tenon into a piece of scrap mounted on a face plate to complete the knob.
Tom
Tom,
I might try the sticking into a piece of scrap on the faceplate...as you can see from my earlier post, I was hoping the Jacob chuck would be a suitable solution....but the knob just flew out of the chuck..
Use a thick sharp scraper and turn a burr on the cutting edge. Also have the support as close to the piece as possible. Sharpen frequently. Only the lightest of touch is needed to make a scraper cut if it is sharp. It's easy to tell when a scraper is dulling by the amount of force you have to apply.
My scrapers are 1/4" thick. I make them myself using A2.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
My scrapers are 1/4" thick. I make them myself using A2.
****************
Mike -- do you do your own heat treatment/tempering or job it out?
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
Leon -
I have an acetylene torch and heat treat them myself. I heat them to bright orange for about 1 minute then swirl them around in half motor oil and half paint thinner. This makes the purest's see red, but it works for me. I get about a dozen knobs from one sharpening. Sharpening consists of a few quick passes on a vertical belt sander with 150 grit paper. If I'm doing detailed hand work I'll finish on a 600 grit grinder and turn a burr. Normally I use a duplicator.
By the way, I do the treatment outside my shop - not on the living room carpet!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike:
Looked up the specs on A2, they recommend using an air heat treat and quench:
http://www.suppliersonline.com/research/property/metals/2598.asp
Texas Knifemaker's Supply http://www.texasknife.com/TKS_Mainframe.htm
offers air heat treatment to their customers, click on Services on the left hand bar. They also offer cryo treatment.
Don't know where you're buying steel from, but I can recommend Admiral Steel: http://www.admiralsteel.com/
FWIW, I use O-1 for the few projects I do, quenching in peanut oil. A bladesmith friend uses filtered crankcase oil to quench his stuff.
If I'm reading the specs correctly, you might get a few more pieces out of an air-treated/quenched piece. May not be worth the trouble it would be to you, either.
Be well.Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
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