There has been a lot of talk around here recently about the occasional churlishness we see in some of the Knots participants.
But there is another side; the old hands already know this, but I hope the newcomers to Knots will understand that there are many kind people here will will step up to answer your queries with uncommon generousity.
To wit:
I recently started a thread, looking for jig ideas for doing loose pin tenons:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34257.1
“Walnutz” came along with an idea which he adapted from Jeff Miller’s book on chairs. He then was good enough to go out of his way to take pics of the jig and work with me as I pestered him for details.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34257.13
Then “Neil” arrived with a link to an earlier thread describing his jig, and when asked, went into his shop for more pics to clairfy details.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34257.28
Best of all, “BillyB” described a jig he had built from a Shop Notes article. When I told him that issue wasn’t available online, he volunteered to send it to me. He did (in color, no less, and by “priority’ mail), and it arrived yesterday. I offered to reimburse him (the postage alone was over $4), and he said “You owe me nothing. Just pay me back by doing a favor for someone else.”
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34257.20
So, I am writing this to publicly thank these generous people, none of whom I had ever dealt with before.
But I also want to urge new participants to look beyond the sometimes heated rhetoric, and understand there are legions of people here that are exceptionally generous.
“It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts.”
John Wooden 1910-
Replies
Thank you for posting this Nikki. Every time I have posted a question here I have received thoughtful answers (I've even had editors reply!). I hope no first time visitors only see one or two posts and get the wrong impression.
I believe that people by and large are good, and its been my experience the wood workers here and else where are pleasant and eager to help others.
Aside from saying my thanks to those individuals, my main reason for doing this is because I have read any number of posts (in the contentious threads) from new people who are afraid to post questions for fear of getting jumped on.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's a bummer, I've learned so much from reading others peoples posts. It's also a bummer that some of these contentious post have taken time away from editors, I'm sure they have better things to do. Maybe offenders mean no ill will, but if folks don't post or visit then knots is lesser because if it.
Thanks for posting this thread and giving averybody a reminder about why were all here. To share our passion for woodworking.
I think the longest threads attract the most reads, but of course they're always the big debates. However I find that people are always willing to give a good sound piece of advice when I need it.
You realize that you are ruining it for all us churls...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I'm not about to extract my fangs......... <G>I've been keeping an eye on that current Festool thread...........Has our friend been around since we were kicked out of Knots?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
kum - by - yaahhh .... kum - by - yah
;-)
everybody join hands now.............. <G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks for posting that. We all to often only get the negitive side of things. Good to hear. I'm relativley new to Knots and find there is a wealth of information to be gleaned. The answers to questions are as diverse as the personalities. Very fun and informative. ( stay away from politics, though ) :)
Paul
Nikkiwood,
Thanks for posting that. It's very refreshing.
Even though we seem to have diametrically opposed philosophical and political outlooks and I often disagree with your positions, I enjoy reading your posts, as they are well thought-out and well-written.
Thanks again for reminding us that we're all here on Knots to help each other out and to learn from each other.
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
James,
You mentioned to Nikki that: "Even though we seem to have diametrically opposed philosophical and political outlooks......"
Here is a strategy for reducing the friction: pretend you have a different outlook everyday and regard philosophy as a form of comedic entertainment. In practice, this is what we humans do anyway; we simply fail to admit the pretences to ourselves.
As the Situationists would say, "Let us do away with the notion of an integrated and coherent human personality". No need, of course, since this integrated thang does not actually exist to begin with.
Today, I am mostly being a blue-trousered wife-pesterer. Tomorrow it will be red trousers; or even none at all.
Lataxe, a multi-faceted creature.
Señor Frauenbelästiger,
<<Today, I am mostly being a blue-trousered wife-pesterer. Tomorrow it will be red trousers; or even none at all.>>
TMI.....
;-)
Not to worry, one of my few consistencies is my inconsistency.....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
I think you may have come to Knots after Jon Arno died. He and I never agreed about anything politically, but debating with him was a great online pleasure, not only for me, but many others around here. It's a big world...... with lots of room for differing views.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
My experience has been like yours - any questions I have ever posted have been answered politely and helpfully. I take that to be the "real" Knots, rather than the churlish threads that do occur from time to time.
Bob
Nikkiwood
That's a great post. I'm honored that you even mentioned the pics. We are, after all, here to learn from one another. I'm certain that I've learned quite a bit here, and only hope to pass it along, as well as continue to learn about the areas (mainly finishing) that I need to improve on.
The "churlish" posts don't bother me, anyways. I find them quite comical, to an extent. When they pass the point of good taste or my version of comical, then I just ignore them, and move on.
So, did you decide what jig to make for those loose tenons!!? ;-)
Walnutz
<< So, did you decide what jig to make for those loose tenons!!>>What I never said was that I have a very bright young apprentice working with me these days who is eager to learn the craft. He was the one who was interested in making loose tenon mortises, since you can do so with just a router. I have always made them with a stationary mortiser. So, if I was game to get him going in the right direction, he was willing to build the jig. We put our heads together today, and since all are pretty simple, we will make three different jigs: yours, an adaptation of Billy's, and one of our own design that pulls ideas from others we have looked at.Right now, we have four tables to build, and a flock of chairs, so we will be able to try them all. Thanks again for all your efforts. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki,
I am very impressed with your comments regarding this forum. I am a retired science teacher (35 yrs.) and one of the things that you learn in dealing with thousands of students throughout your career is that strength of character and a willingness to help others is what separates the people you remember and the one's that just pass through your classroom. I love the John Wooden quote on all your posts. He was a great teacher and coach.
Terry
But I would also ask you to remember Tom Jefferson's famous quote from a letter to Madison:"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."Knots is mostly a placid place, where people go about exchanging views and information in a quiet way. But every once and a while, someone strides into the building and throws a written grenade down the hall, and we're then off to the rhetorical races.Riverprof was the latest example; I think he came here to voice a little rebellion. In doing so, he raised the ire of many, but at the same time, I think he touched on some points that were worth debating. In his case, unfortunately, he turned petulant, picked up his marbles, and left in a huff. My point here is to say that while the main business of this forum is to exchange information, we should also be able to accommodate broader more philosophical debates about the craft (and our attitudes toward it), and these sorts of discussions are almost inevitably going to be contentious. And -- I would hope participants (new and otherwise) who find such threads bothersome would just skip over them. And 2 -- I would especially hope that newcomers will look beyond the flames to see that we have many individuals here who are exceptional in giving generously of their knowledge and experience.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Exceptionally well-said Nikki, also quoting one of my favorite historical figures.<!----><!----><!---->
A reasoned, thoughtful, comment like this makes me wish Knots had a "See all users posts" feature, or know how to use it if it does.
I will have to search my memory to remember what sin I have committed (there have been so many). <G>
In any event I am happy you have accepted my apology (more <G>).
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood
I didn't realize that you had anything to apologize for to any one. It puts an interesting slant on things. :-)
On topic, there are truly many many people who share freely on Knots. They are visible to all. The others who do not, we do not really see, because they are in the background reading and watching. This is not a negative comment, simply an observation. Some probably are uncomfortable jumping into the arena but have much to offer if ever they decide to show themselves. The others; just the fact that they are watching is a testament to the dynamic of this forum.
Knots is no different than any other group (I do not mean skills group - I mean any group of individuals getting together) We all need to feel accepted and we all need to feel that we have something to contribute. This happens over time with newbies making the effort and the regulars allowing them the space they need to participate.
When I showed up on Knots the atmosphere was open and accepting. I have had a little time, not too much because I haven't been here all that long, to understand the participants. There are some here that ignore me totally...their choice and their right...I guess that their evaluation of me was / is the reason. Others respond, and I do the same. All in all, not a bad place to be. JL
Edited 2/11/2007 3:34 am ET by jeanlou
All: As an occasional fire-thrower and frequent asker of beginners woodworking questions I'd like to chime in on this: Knots is a great place!! The folks here have (including some world class woodworkers) given freely of their time and knowledge to help me with my projects even though I'm in WW kindergarten. I've tried to help others with my electrical knowledge, the only subject I'm qualified to give advice on.
I see the other stuff as a separate issue, apart from woodworking of course and not diminishing the craft-related threads. I hope I've not scared anyone away with my hooting and hollering.
PZGren: Nice quote from 2001. Hal, Hal do you hear me?
Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
<<< I didn't realize that you had anything to apologize for to any one. It puts an interesting slant on things. :-)>>>I think/hope he was joking.He may have been referring to the fact Berger threw me out this past December. But for me that was a matter of principle -- speaking out against the comments from an individual who has been the resident troll here for years. I reached the point where I felt enough was enough, and I think there were many who agreed with me. Anyway, I concur with your psychological assessment. But I don't mind saying that I am having some difficulty understanding why some participants are so touchy. And as a result, they take offense where none was intended, such as:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34154.19http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33603.171Even though I was involved in one of the above examples, I can say honestly, I have no earthly idea what raised the ire of these folks. Nor do I know what I, or anyone else could do to avoid giving offense to these kind of thin-skinned individuals. The best I could do was to start this thread, by way of urging such people to look beyond that which may bother them, and to see there is a real generousity of spirit that infuses this forum.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
This clears things up a little, so that now it is somewhat muddy instead of opaque and gelatinous. I saw the posts as they happened.
I was witness to a terrible misunderstanding today at a family celebration that left several people feeling very badly. By the end of the day things had calmed down, but the injured remained injured.
The same happens in the forum on-line as happens in life on the street. What we say is amplified and has power to play the emotions of others like an instrument. Maybe people will realize this and soften their approaches (including yours truly). JL
I agree.
I decided to stick around for a while because of your thoughtful comments. I want to learn but I have no interest in people being bashed because of their opinions. I guess we will see how it works out.
I am happy you will stick around. But I would say that "bashing" is to some extent, part of the deal. Partly, that's the nature of written communication, and what seems like a "bash" to the recipient is sometimes just a misguided attempt at humor or irony from the poster. But it's also true that some of us, myself included, sometimes make some jerk statement, and we shouldn't be surprised to get called up on the online carpet to answer for it.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I agree! Humor in the form of the written word can sometimes be a hard thing to relate to a stranger who doesn’t know your sense of humor up close and personal. Perhaps when a person is trying to be funny with their written words it wouldn’t hurt to use the old “ha, ha” to make sure you’re not being taken too seriously.
S, with in two months of me being a newbie here some guy tightened me up and I went nuts. He was then big enough to post me and say that he was only "pulling my chain" and I am indebeted to him. I now will use the "HAH" to indicate the joke. I should have known better as I had an Aunt Mary a girl from Newfoundland Cadada a RAF nurse who after WWII had very heavy decorations from BOTH sides for saving lives and went on to become a nun working in third world countries.
She was as you might expect a very quiet and demure person but with a sense of humor dryer than a dessert. Just a sly remark or a short response that would destroy a room full of us into laughter. What a joy. May she rest in peace.
Nikie, You are the worst person to be selected to be chastised as I see your comments to be balanced in seeing both sides and I support you right to have your positions because you don't condem mine. Peace Paddy
Is that what I'm doing?
If so, it's coming from some deep recess of my subconscious, since I don't feel the need to make amends for anything I've said around here. <G>
Maybe you can help ................ :)
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
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