Hi everyone, I am finally going to pull the trigger and buy a unisaw. I am looking at the 3 hp left tilt, and found a local store with some pretty good prices.
They offer the saw with the Unifence or the Beissemeyer fence, I have read lots of reviews of each, and would just like to hear everyone’s opinion. (either will be a huge improvement over current saw).
Thanks for the input.
John
Replies
John you might want to check the archives. I think there was a very lengthy discussion on this very topic not to long ago.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
I have no opinion on the Unifence vs. the Biesemeyer, but I'll pass along some safety info. Many moons ago, Splintie posted about an accident she had with the Unifence when doing a small production run. The lock-down mechanism worked loose after over 2 dozen cuts and caused a kick-back incident and injury. In the only post I can find via search, she states: "I do a lot of double-checking of the handle, too, to make sure it's perpendicular to the rails and can't rattle out of the track."
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here 'tis. (at least, another discussion on the unifence, linked to Splintie's warning)
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=11312.11
Glad the wedding went well. Congratulations to you both,
eddie
Thanks, Eddie, that's the only thread I could find -- never did locate the one where Splintie described the whole event. Not trying to trash the Unifence, just alert people, as those who knew her when she hung out here at Knots are aware she "knows her tools" pretty darned well. I guess the fence can seem locked down when it really isn't.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have the Unifence, and have used both. Both are good fences, but I have noticed that I can get the Unifence to flex at the far end. For this, I'd get the Bies next time around.
And you do have to be careful making adjustments with the Unifence. It could get loose enough to present a scenario just as Forestgirl had described.
Both are excellent fences and both do some things better than the other. The Biese is the most highly copied fence on the market, and seems to outsell the Uni, but that doesn't mean you should follow the crowd. I like the Biese for clamping jigs to and for the ruggedness of it.
John, I have the Uni (this is my 2nd one) and have experienced the same problem where the locking mechanism doesn't lock into the track all the way. Fortunately, I've not had any accidents as a result but given the choice again, I would go with the Beis, its very sturdy. The nicest fence in my opinion is the Powermatic, which is very similar to the Beismeyer.
good luck with your new saw, Hugh
John,
1. I've got a Bies knock-off (shop fox)....never saw a uni knock-off.
2. It seems most everyone loves the Uni and buys the Bies....hmmm
3. I think Delta bought Bies
the only problem I have ever had with my knock-off is the face is shimed and the screws were not as tight as they could be...sawdust got behind the face causing some slight burning on cherry. I would assume that is a potential issue with the Bies that would not happen with the Uni.....very easy to fix....
Actually the Uni is a knock-off of the fences on European sliding panel saws.
If you go Uni the http://www.ttrackusa.com/index.html brings it closer to a Bies.
http://modulus2000.com/product3.htm makes a nice retrofit rear hold down.
Delta did buy Bies. No problems with sawdust and the Bies.
I've used both since they came out and Bies is my choice. Easier to put fixtures on and pretty much indestructible. I've been to trade schools where they destroyed Unifences. On the Bies types the cursor is the most vulnerable. The HTC has replacement faces which is nice. One could always buy the saw and sell the fence and buy another brand.
Edited 12/31/2003 12:06:40 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
I have the unifence on three unisaws and a pm66. No problems of any kind coming " loose" but if you don't properly adjust any tool it won't function worth a darn. This is another example of " knowing your tools". The unifence is more versatile than a Beissmeyer. It can be pulled back into a short position for ripping or a cross-cut stop, flipped to a low position or removed and a shop built fence attached. In the low position, hold downs can be attached to the T-slot. As a test, lock down both fences then lift up on the back end of the fence, as if hold downs are pushing down on a piece of stock. The Beissemeyer will lift the Unifence will not. You can lift the Beiss. off the front rail, that's why Powermatic sells a fence hold down for the rear of their fence. Buy the Unifence.
Dave Koury
I have had both fences side by side in a production shop. The Unifence lasted about 6 months; the Bies was pretty bulletproof. It's awfully easy to do anything with a Bies that a unifence will do- all you need is a couple of clamps. Unifence is just too flimsy for me.
The Biesemeyer on my PM66 is over 20 years old and still dead on.
FWIW
Michael R
My opinion echoes that of woodwiz. When I was in graduate school the sculpture studio had a Beis. on a Unisaw. This was always accurate and moved smoothly despite being used by many novice art students who are not known for taking real good care of equipment. When I was in the market, I bought Beis. I've never had any problem with it.
The ability to shorten the Unifence is a tremendous advantage over the Beis. It's only been mentioned once in this thread but don't overlook it. As to durability, I've had a Unifence for 10 years and I can't imagine how one could be trashed in 6 months.
I have owned both. I sold the Beis and bought a Uni why? Wait til your in the middle of a job and accidently drop your beis then damage the fence. Your gonna be down for quite a while until you repair the fence side. But you can always screw another face on the existing and continue tili your done so much for its accuracy using the fences scale. Then you have to fool around and try to get a new one from beis and fool with the screwing the fence on and glueing the laminate face on with a million small clamps. With my Unifence, I go about 15 mins away to the tool store buy another fence and get back to work. I can also buy various lengths of fences short medium and long fences. Say if I attach a huge outfeed table I can get a fence to fit by swapping out the fence and replaceing it with another one. Same is true If I move my saw outside on a warm spring day and decide to cut outdoors w/o a outfeed table. I can swap the fence to a shorted one and go on.
I think its all personal preferance they are both good fences. both have their good and bad points.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
>>I have owned both. I sold the Beis and bought a Uni why? Wait til your in the middle of a job and accidently drop your beis then damage the fence. Your gonna be down for quite a while until you repair the fence side.
On the other hand, I have never had to repair a Biesemeyer since they came out with the commercial model in the 70's. And replacing the bent sliding fence on a Unisaw, which I had to do several times, is a lot more expensive than re-facing a Bies.
Again, FWIW
Michael R
On the other hand, I have never had to repair a Biesemeyer since they came out with the commercial model in the 70's. And replacing the bent sliding fence on a Unisaw, which I had to do several times, is a lot more expensive than re-facing a Bies.
Hmm thats interesting cuz when I dropped mine I had to order the sides from Beis. It was 16 bucks plus shipping took about 5-7 working days to get to me. Then I had to tear off the laminate outter, unscrew the baltic birch substrate screw the new substrate back on , glue and clamp the new laminate for 24 hours prior to using it.
My Uni, i go about 2 miles to the neares tool store and buy a fence (true it is more expensive about 50 bucks for the large one) and drive home andloosen the fence attachments remove the fence slide and new one on. Get back to work. At least thats my experiance with it.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
>>Hmm thats interesting cuz when I dropped mine I had to order the sides from Beis. It was 16 bucks plus shipping took about 5-7 working days to get to me. Then I had to tear off the laminate outter, unscrew the baltic birch substrate screw the new substrate back on , glue and clamp the new laminate for 24 hours prior to using it.
Mine's had over twenty years hard use. I bought the saw out of a failed cabinet saw about ten years ago with the original laminate on it. I have replaced the laminate a couple of times due to wear, but I've never had to do anything else. Never had to replace one in a factory setting, either. I can't imagine how you could damage a side enough to have to replace it, other than by running it into the blade. Assuming that I did, I wouldn't bother ordering a replacement. I'd just cut a new one from scrap Baltic Birch, drill and counterbore, and stick a new face on and trim it. Total time less than 1/2 hour, probabaly less than it would take you to run to the store. (Lacquer thinner or acetone takes laminate off real fast.) If I got real ambitious, I might replace the t-molding, but as far as I can see it's mostly cosmetic. On the other hand, I might just bondo the damage and sand it level..........
If Biesemeyer made a European style fence, I might very well buy it. Just got a real bad taste from the unifence.
Michael R
I dropped mine. Goobered up the leading edge of the fence. I guess I could of sanded it down and continued. But I like things just so. That is why i ordered the replacement from Beis. But either way im done with it. I use a Uni. never had a prob with it flexing even cutting sheet stock inc 3/4 particle board.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
WOW!!! I really got something going here huh??? I guess this is like asking do you like regular or lite beer. LOL I do appreciate all the responses, I have read them all carefully, and I THINK I am going to order it with the Beis. I am a big clumsy oaff, and think I might have a little better luck with it over the Uni. It just seems stronger.
As a note about myself, I am an 35 year old ex-contractor, I am now disabled because of some bad luck with surgeons. I am going to open a small shop near my house where my Dad and I can have some fun and make some cool stuff that MIGHT sell. I rented about 1130 ft sq. and will make about 350 of it showroom and the rest will be our shop. I got the space for a really good price, and I am planning on making small projects that I can handle myself, (cant lift much) I am currently working in my one stall garage building things as I can for family and freinds.
My latest project was a bed for my 18 month old. It is a 1956 john deere 50 tractor bed. I made it out of MDF. I laminated 8 sheets together and cut out the wheels( 1/4 of whole wheel, to go up against the wall) and used and angle grinder to carve the treads. I made a flywheel cover and the belt pully in the same way. I ordered a complete authentic John Deere decal kit off of ebay, and painted it JD green and yellow. HE LOVES IT. Everyone else seems to like it too, but I am very critical of my own work, and mostly just see the flaws.
If anyone is interested, I can take some dig pics and post them, let me know.
Thanks for all your input, keep up the great work.
John
>>The ability to shorten the Unifence is a tremendous advantage over the Beis. It's only been mentioned once in this thread but don't overlook it.
It takes about 15 seconds by the clock to clamp an auxiliary fence to a Biesemeyer, and you don't have the rest of the fence sticking out to snag you when you move. That's one of the things I really didn't like about the Unifence; too many projections, plus it really is pretty flimsy, unless it's been upgraded a lot since I had one. Also, in over 30 years of full time woodworking, I never have been able to discern the benefit of the low fence, and things that aren't necessary are just so much clutter to me.
>> As to durability, I've had a Unifence for 10 years and I can't imagine how one could be trashed in 6 months.
Have you ever worked in a production shop? Using a saw 8 to 12 hours a day, every day, is a pretty good test of what's good and what isn't. Especially with underpaid production workers. Believe me, the Bies is a whole lot more durable. Actually it takes about 2 seconds to bend the fence on a Unifence if you are crosscutting plywood. We had a panel saw but it was too slow for cutting one or two sheets. We were constantly re-aqligning the Unifence; almost never had to touch the Bies.
FWIW
Michael R
Don't think you'd go wrong with either fence. I've used both and would echo previous posts- the Bies is more rugged and the Uni more versatile........ my own preference is for the UniFence.
Edited 1/1/2004 1:39:04 PM ET by jc
I would get the Beis. The Unifence has a nice pivotong fence. That is the good news. The Unifence has a nice pivoting fence. That is the bad news. It can not take clamps to the back side because of the rounded pivot points.
Actually, I'd get the HTC Fence if you can upgrade. It is a Beis clone, but has easily removable fences and you can go from high to low or sacrificial in about 3 second and still use the cross hairs on the tape measure. If you use the Beis tall boy fence, you (a) have to buy a clamp on fence and (2) loose the cross hair function.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Another possibility is getting a used paralock fence. I loved the one I used on a friend's unisaw,
Look around. In the last ten years, every major saw company has copied one fence style. Hint: it is not the unifence. Even Delta bought Biesemeyer.
Am sure the Unifence is very "adaptable", but as someone said above, the Bies is bullet proof. I have owned three on three different saws. Superior design and worksmanship.
"In the last ten years, every major saw company has copied one fence style. Hint: it is not the unifence." That may be true in North America, Robbie, but around here, almost noone uses the long rip fence style as personified by Beisemeyer, et al. You've got to be careful making blanket statements of that sort because the style of fence you suggest is universal, isn't at all universal in my experience.
I seldom see a 'Beisemeyer' style fence fitted to a European saw in Europe. I suspect that's probably because they don't really fit in with European saw operator work practices. In Europe, you're much more likely to see European style fences fitted to saws, a style which I suspect Delta copied in producing their Unifence.
Personally, I generally loathed using fixed long rip fences when I lived in the US, finding them to be awkward and instinctively unsafe in concept and use-- but that's my European training and background coming into play. Slainte.
Website
Sgian:
Point well taken. My comments are based on the North American market. Although I travel extensively through Europe on business, I have not had the opportunity to sit in with a European woodworker to learn what is different there than here in the US. Could be very enlightening.
Having said all that, still prefer the Biesemeyer over the Unifence. :-) Robbie
So what kind of fence do the Euros use?
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
THis one, Boris
<a href="http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/">View Image'>
For wide panel work, the fence is extended full width of the table, where kickback won't be an issue.
For work with solid timber, the fence is moved into the position shown - end of fence level with the point about halfway between saw arbor and front of blade. No fence at rear of blade to push items into the rising teeth and cause kickback.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 1/2/2004 3:00:53 PM ET by eddie (aust)
'Boris'
You were asking a week or so back about Euro style table saw and panel saw fences.
This is a very good set of operating and usage instructions from the UK equivalent of the US OSHA
Well worth a look and recommending - this is how we were trained in Australia under trade training, and how the European cabinetmakers are trained also.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
As well, there's a lot of stuff on the site aimed at medium to large panel shops. Here's a link to the index:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm
Hope this helps and with best regards,
eddie
Edited 1/7/2004 3:48:32 PM ET by eddie (aust)
>>In Europe, you're much more likely to see European style fences fitted to saws, a style which I suspect Delta copied in producing their Unifence.
Good point
Actually, most American industrial rip saws use a short fence. The long fences just come on consumer grade and utility saws, and yes, they are not without their problems, but they can be handy, too. I can crosscut and rip over 30 sheets of sheet stock in an hour to better than 1/32" accuracy with a long fence (had lots of practice), without having to commit the money and space to a sliding table saw, and then I can clamp on an auxiliary short fence for ripping in about 15 seconds. Not quite the accuracy one would like for high production work with sheet stock, but versatile and cheap for small quantities of work.
I don't have any problem with the Unifence's intent. I just think it's poorly designed and flimsy. Can't figure why they put on that reversible fence, the locking mechanism isn't very good, the fence sticks out and gets in the way when you move it back, and it bends too easy. If they made a good one that actually made sense, I'd certainly consider buying it..
Cheers back atcha
Michael R
edit: looks like I type too slow!
Edited 1/2/2004 3:10:36 PM ET by Woodwiz
Got to agree to some extent Michael. I used a Unifence a few times, and didn't turn into a fan really. I wasn't impressed with the way it locked, and found it liable to become unlocked in use.
As to the whole Beisemeyer versus Unifence debate, I note that many north american users find the extruded aluminiun Unifence too flexible in use. It is, if you try to use it as a replacement for the long Beisemeyer rip fence style.
Working European woodworkers don't use bench or table saws for creating mouldings, running rebates, knocking out housings/dados, etc.. Bench saws in Europe are used almost exclusively for dimensioning stock, whether it be solid wood or man made board, and there is a wholely distinctively different European attitude and training relating to bench saw usage. That's not quite true because there are other means of using the tool, e.g., with power feeders and suitable guarding, bench saws can be used for a bit more than simple dimensioning.
Creating mouldings, running grooves, rebates, housings/dados, etc., is accomplished by the use of other machines and techniques. One difference in use is that we Europeans generally leave the riving knife and crown guard in place--- it's regulated by official government bodies, certainly at the workplace, although hobbiests can virtually do what they like. The regulations makes use of dado blades, etc., difficult. In addition, saw arbors are intentionally too short to accomodate a dado blade.
Anyway Michael, I know you already know all this, but I was making a general point, which is that taking on a Unifence means in some way taking on something of the European philosophy of woodworking and abandoning the US style long rip fence method. Of course one has to know what the differences are to be able to make the choice. Having worked on both continents as a furniture maker, I do. Slainte.Website
Richard,
Good points all. The environment here is quite a bit different. I spent a few years in Britain and on the Continent myself, so I do have a pretty good idea.
I started woodworking in my Dad's basement in the mid 50's, while I was still in grammar school. Progressed through a series of ever larger and more sophisticated furniture factories with time out for military service and a couple of side trips, and then back to being a one-man shop for the last ten years or so.
There is a spirit of "make do" in many small shops, including mine. I'd love to have a big slider like you use, but I simply can't justify it economically, nor do I have the space for one. I realize it is a "once in a lifetime" purchase for a small shop, and the cost can be amortized over a lot of years. I might have bought one If I had started my one- man career a little earlier. I do this for a living; most amateurs can't even afford a decent cabinet or utility saw, so all- out European style machinery, or even a decent power feed, is pretty much out for them.
A decent sliding fence is pretty nice, but the practical effect can be easily achieved by a simple fixture on a long fence. More important to me would be the splitter or riving knife, and a decent crown guard. Even the best ones I have seen over here are a joke, except for the overarm style guards. I know way too many people who have been seriously damaged by unskilled use of a table saw, and these two elements would have prevented almost every injury. In factories, very few machines are manually fed, and there are very few injuries per man-hour worked.
Like you, I think people should be aware of all available options, and I wish that some of the good points of European design could be incorporated into affordable products in the American market. Additionally, I would love to see better training with power equipment for all. Hardly anyone I know who got hurt on a table saw actually knew what he was doing with it. Of course, good design does help to shield one from the effects of idiocy and ignorance.
By the way, you are the only Brit I have known to refer to himself as a European. Is that for the benefit of us Colonials, or are more Britons feeling that way these days?
Michael R.
I can't say for most Brits how they feel regarding their place in Europe, Michael. However, like the US, the EC is something of an administrative and political entity, and legislation passed in Brussels(sp?) is enacted to a greater or lesser degree throughout the continent by individual countries-- I guess it's a bit like individual states in the US with their ability to tweak federal legislation to suit local conditions. Anyway, that's a whole political debate I'm not going to get into.
But the point is that woodworking machinery and woodworking techniques in Europe are similar throughout. I (probably) wouldn't feel as confused walking into a Spanish or French workshop to work as I did when I first walked into an American workshop. It wasn't the machinery that was so very different, but it was the general attitude and approach that was difficult to cope with. I got a sense of a lot of bravura, and very little training and knowledge, points you alluded to, and that's what I found most disconcerting, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
>>Anyway, that's a whole political debate I'm not going to get into.
Not wanting to start a debate. When I lived in Britain, (in the 70's) it seemed that people were petty emphatic in disnguishing themselves as British rather than European (Continental). Sort of an insular attitude, one might say. Seems that attitude may be shifting. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.
>>I got a sense of a lot of bravura, and very little training and knowledge, points you alluded to, and that's what I found most disconcerting, ha, ha. Slainte.
I know what you mean. That might come from the nature of our society, where the attitude is that anyone can do anything. We didn't inherit much of the guild system from Europe, and there are lots of myths and misconceptions to overcome. It is hard to get good training and information over here, except at the University level, and there aren't even that many good courses offered in wood technology.
I started working with wood in my Dad's basement in the 50's, and it took a long time and a lot of work to get to the point where I feel competent in most areas of my trade. One of the reasons I participate in these forums, apart from the entertainment value and the opportunity to learn somethiong here and there, is to maybe help speed up the learning curve for others. I suspect you may have a similar motivation.
Michael R
Certainly, things have moved on since the '70's Michael, and like it or not, we Brits are part of Europe, and having lived in Texas, where the locals think they're almost a country in their own right, Texas is nevertheless still part of America.
I agree that training and the dissemination of woodworking knowledge often seems to be poor in the US, but I can't say that's true for the whole country as I don't believe I travelled widely enough to find out. I looked for work as a teacher of furniture design/making subjects in Houston, and elsewhere in the US without success. You'd think that a city of ~4 million souls might have some need for woodworker training at the local schools, colleges, and universities-- after all, they're forever whacking up houses and filling them with furniture and other interior decorations.
I found no such course being run (in Houston) so I widened my search criteria and ended up working back in the UK. Something of a relief to me anyway-- Gulf Coast Texas probably has the most inhospitable climate I've lived in (although there might be worse climates elsewhere that I haven't sampled) so I was happy to escape from that, ha, ha.
True, there were the usual Woodcraft and similar places offering ad-hoc weekend and night training, but no colleges offering anything formal and accredited by a central authoritative examining body along those lines. Anyway, that's neither here nor there really-- life, love, and work sends you to all sorts of different places.
I can't say why I participate in forums like this. There's some fun, banter, a bit of learning, and sometimes I know the answer to a question here and there--- and every now and then I make a complete pillock of myself for the fun and delectation of other visitors, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
One of the best wood technology curricula in the nation is offered at a school about 1000 miles north of Houston in southeastern Kansas. The weather's a little better than Houston, but still harsh in comparison to Scotland. We usually get several days over 100 F in the summer, with a little less humidity, and, for example, it's going to be below zero F tonight. One added attraction is that it's 150 miles from any major city, and there's asolutely f-all to do there. I don't think you are missing much.
The people are great, though - a lot like northern Scotland before the oil.
Michael R
Robbie,
"Look around. In the last ten years, every major saw company has copied one fence style. Hint: it is not the unifence. Even Delta bought Biesemeyer."
The point about copycats is valid, but I disagree with the latter point. Delta did not buy Biesemeyer because they have a good fence design. They bought Bies because everybody thinks they have a good fence design. Delta is interested in what we like, not what they like. What we like is not always the best (for example, European vs. American style blade guards).
FWIW, I prefer the Biesemeyer.
Jon Blakemore
Bill Biesemeyer based his fence on the drafting t square because he was fed up with the jet lock and it's need to be continually adjusted. He was able to incorporate a scale and give repeatable measurements which was innovative at the time. I'd be willing to bet Delta looked at the European fences when they made their Unifence. When Biesemeyer's patent ran out everyone started copying it. Delta bought Biesemeyer as a smart business move. Bill Biesmeyer passed away some time ago but he certainly started something. Most of the really innovative new moodworking stuff seems to come out of Europe. Slot mortisers, edge banders, line boring construction machines, panel saws, combination machines, hardware.
I can use either type of fence. It's mostly what you get used to. I prefer the European style fence and I would like the Delta better if they used a rectangular extrusion without that curve on the back.
Edited 1/2/2004 2:59:19 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
All I hear on this web-site is 'Unifence' vs 'Biesemeyer'. Has anyone out there used the Vega fence? They have a great 'Finger Saver' attachment for it. I've used it and thought it was good. There was a bit of backlash in the 'micro-adjuster' but it worked nice and smooth for me. SawdustSteve
Steve, there have been discussions of various after-market fences here at Knots -- but this particular discussion was posed as a Uni vs. Beis discussion. I remember seeing posts on the Vega, AccuSquare, Incra, Jointech, AccuFence.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Steve
I had a Vega fence on my old saw (an upgraded craftsman) and overall had to say it was a pretty good fence.
But, if you buy a Vega, get the commercial version, not the home owner as it is alot more solid.
My new saw is a Grizzly 1023 and came with the awful fox fence.
When I upgraded that, I was thinking of another Vega, but ended up with the Beisemeyer.
I must admit, the Beisemeyer is built like a tank.
Jeff
I have a right-tilt w/Beissemeyer. The fence is great. In addition, since the saw tilts right the rip fence indicator functions accurately for dado and moulding heads as well.
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