Hello everyone, I did a search on bench mortising machines before posting this but the latest post was March ’02.
Am going to the Sacramento wood show on the 25th and am thinking I would like one. I’m leaning toward the Delta and would like to keep it under $300.00. Any recommendations or advice? Thanks, Brian
Replies
Brian
The new Delta is fine. I have the ShopFox and love the size and strudiness of the columns. It has the largest capicity of all the BT's. The General is also a great one, unless your prone not to buy Canadian products at the current moment. ha..ha..
Between those 3, I would be satisfied with any one of them.
Enjoy the show...
sarge..jt
I think Sarge, dear one that he is, is being too equitable. Go for the Shop Fox -- that sturdy column, extra capacity and higher quality hold-down make it a hands-down winner over Delta.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
Trying to show diplomacy and keep from offending ToolDoc and his Delta babes. He might have some money left from the buying spree and get me something for being so nice. Nah, probably not..
Go for the Fox, Brain. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE: You & The First Lady of the Forest can never ever get me mad at you guys for not recommending a Delta product,cause althou they are Great they may not always be the Best buy or the Best product for the purpose,besides that IM straying from them myself for the jointer purchase..shhh please dont let the Delta Girls know..<G>...oh ya maybe I can get them to do a Lap Dance for you Buddy ha ha...
ToolDoc
May not be so bad, Doc. I hear those "Grizzly Girls" are pretty wild and wooly to... ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE: GRIZZLY Girls hmmmmmm.LOL... I dont know about that but those Delta Gals sure are Honeys..<G>
ToolDoc
Brian should be alerted to the fact (yes, fact) that my recommendations twixt Delta and Brand X are never, ever, ever influenced by the subliminal effects of Delta Girls, ROFL!!! I am immune to their spells and can objectively distill the important pros and cons without falling victim to those limpid eyes, blond curls and ... (well, better not "go there"). ROFLMAO!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie: to be truthful I never even looked at there eyes or hair,was kinda of focused else where <G> ....
Brian,
I have the new Delta and really like it. It is far superior to the old model with a new heavy cast iron table and larger hold-down. The column is very robust and the action smooth. It also has a column mounted tool holder. I've used it a couple of times since I got it for X-mas and it works flawlessly.
I'm not familiar with the Shop Fox having never seen one close up, but Sarge is usually right on with his assessments. I'm not a big Grizzly fan so I did not consider this as a choice.
TDF
The Grizzly mortiser and Shop Fox are two completely different beasties. I know, I know, Grizzly/Shop Fox what's the diff, right? Well, I do believe the Shop Fox mortiser is a whole 'nother critter. Doesn't bear any resemblence to any of the Grizz mortisers.
Actually, near as I can tell, Grizzly doesn't carry the SF mortiser any longer. I can't find my 2003 catalog, but didn't see it on their web site.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
Even though SF is owned by the same folks as Grizzly, it is a totally different mortiser from the Grizzly as you stated. You have to go to the web-site for SF and pull up the closest dealer. I have one about 40 miles away.
The Fox is double column and has three height positions. When in the highest, it looks like a floor model. Their TS and other tools are similar, but this mortiser is a different animal. Go figure.. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Thanks Tom, I'll keep that in mind on Friday (the wood show, Oh Boy! Oh Boy!) Brian
Buy a floor model the small machines are really frustrating. I have an early delta built in UK. Very nice quality, and fine for a few mortises, but it is funny how many mortises there really are in inoscent looking little projects. I am currently working on a tresle base for one of my benches, and there are 14 mortises, the largest is 6"x1". That is 52 plunges, best case, with a 1/2" chisels just for the one mortise. And every plunge, you have to manualy reposition the piece, however big, with one hand, maybe clean out the fence piece junction, endless. The machine will be too small to do the mortises in the ends of the stretchers, which are far and away the hardest ones in the piece. Honestly the one place where one wants a machine, I'll be poking away with a 5/16" hand chisel.
I spent a lot of time laying out all those mortises by hand in pencil. With the right machine with a material vise an stops, it could all have been done in a few instants. For the eight mortises for the tresle uprights, exact position isn't all that important. 1/32" here ore there mater not a whit, but it maters that they are all in exactly the same place. That kind of precision can be eyeballed with the floor models, saving huge amounts of layout. Just adjust the stop on the first one, and all the rest will come out the same. In fact I did run over one of my mortise lines, into a shoulder line. It won't show in the finished piece. I couldn't seen the line for the chips, but on a model with stops, that would have been impossible.
Look at the article in a recent copy of FWW. I like the Powermatic myself.
A slot mortiser or multi router would make quick work for all the joints you described and would be more accurate. I rarely use my HCM since I built a slot mortiser.Tom
Thanks. I have tried that route, and don't like all the noise, dust, or non-square holes. I don't agree they are more accurate, I mean I suppose you could find a rotary cutter that would hold very tight tolerances, but the HCM will cut very clean square holes. But he time you have sanded your tenons, or banged out the neds, I wonder. The HCM is an industrial solution of long standing.
On the other hand, rotary cutters can be much faster, at the small shop level I am not convinced, but every time I buy a new tool I wonder if I shouldn't be implementing the total CNC solution.
Hi Thom, I appreciate your advice. I'm fairly new to WW and don't really see myself doing enough M/T joinery to justify the expense of a floor model,at least for now. As you've said, those mortices add up. I will probably be doing more and more M/T work as I progress in the craft. So perhaps one of these days I'll move up to a floor model, but for now it's looking like a BT for me. Thanks again, Brian
Brian, I am also interested in purchasing a benchtop morticer. For your information Northwest Power tools is selling the Shopfox for $185.00 + shipping. This seems like a good price. The model number is W1671 - is this the mortiser others recommend? I was under the impression that the cost was closer to $300.00.
Bill
The 1671 is the current model based on looking at the Woodstock/Shop Fox site. "RightTool.com" lists the "regular price" as $265.00, and their special price at $230. Northwest Power Tools often has the best price on smaller machines.
Any "suggested retail price" cited in literature is grossly inflated.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
BSZYDLO That's the model. I have it and paid $185 as it was the last in stock and the floor model. It retails around Atlanta at $235. That's a great price and an excellent mortiser.
sarge..jt
Hi, can't add anything to what Jamie (Forestgirl) posted. I'm going with Northwest power tool if I can't get a better deal at the wood show on Friday. Brian
Brian, I just noticed that the Shop Fox is capable of doing "off bench" operations -- I don't know whether the other mortisers have a swiveling base that accomplish that, maybe you can check it out. Here's a link to the page:
http://www.woodstockinternational.com/W1671.cfm
Sorry I haven't gotten to your email yet. This afternoon, when things slow down.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks Jamie, I'll check it out Friday and let you know.
I've been using the Shop Fox 1725 rpm mortiser for over a year, now. It has proven to be totally satisfactory. The majority of the use has been in 8/4 cherry, with cheap bits/chisels. I get little or no burning with this machine. Runs smoothly, good hold down, massive construction for a benchtop machine. I do a lot of through mortises, even more than blind mortises and this machine has really speeded things up.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Do you get clean sides on the mortises, so you have no qualms about the glue-ups?
I might as well throw this into the mix: I recently bought a new Jet JBM-5 benchtop mortiser but until today hadn't had the opportunity to use it much; after working with it today, a number of things started to become clearer about it.
View Image
First of all, anyone contemplating buying a benchtop mortiser should remember that most are built to handle a maximum 1/2" hollow chisel. The actual set that comes with the Jet includes three chisels: 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", but given the kinds of things I generally build, I would guess I'll be using the 1/2" virtually all the time. I’m going to investigate the possibility of replacing the chuck with one that will handle larger bits, but even if that becomes doable, the motor won't get any bigger (6A), so I'm not counting on the ability to horse through 3/4" mortises at very great speed
Which brings me to the first real weak point about these mortisers--speed. Not talking about motor speed (the Jet has a 1750 rpm motor, which is fine), but benchtops have problems with their fences and holddowns, which slows down overall use. Today, I had only 8 through mortises to cut, four each on the two upright sides of a pine bookcase I'm building. Each mortise is 3/4Ewide by 2Elong. Since the mortise chisel has a 1/2" bore, it means that cutting those mere eight mortises required sixty-four changes of position on the mortiser table (2 inches long / .5 inches wide = 4 plunges for the length, and 3/4E/.5 = 1.5 (equivalent to 2 plunges for the width ), so 4 x 2 = 8, and since there were 8 mortises, it's 8 x 8 = 64.)
I planned my cuts, of course, to prevent having to readjust the fence for each plunge, but I still had to move and fasten down the workpieces (including switching between boards) 64 times. That's an awful lot for just 8 mortises!
Given that fact, the benchtop mortiser (and this applies not just to the Jet, but to all of them in this class) really demands some kind of sliding table with x-y movements, not to mention a decent, quick-release holddown. As I noted above, the holddown is a weak point. If you're considering the purchase of a benchtop mortiser you should seriously read the American Woodworker Benchtop Mortiser Review that discusses these issues, since it will save you a lot of grief if you've never used a benchtop mortiser before. The criticisms in the article are spot on, particularly with regard to the poor excuse for a hold down that most benchtop mortisers come equipped with.
To be blunt, the hold down on a benchtop mortiser is a joke. Speaking for the Jet alone, although it's called a "holddown," it doesn't really apply pressure downward on the workpiece at all. The tightening bolt is horizontal, so it merely fixes the holddown in place with whatever pressure you've managed (or not managed) to apply on it manually from above--and believe me, it's not nearly enough. What is needed for quick work is a spring or threaded vertical clamp-down device that will apply pressure firmly from above, to hold the workpiece in place and prevent it from racking and wandering. The racking issue is especially important during the upward stroke, when lifting the chisel out of the wood--the holddown has so little real "hold" to it that if you rely on it alone, you'll quickly find the workpiece racking and twisting on the chisel, tightening it in the cut and making it almost impossible to withdraw (the American Woodworker review emphasizes this point, so I was aware of it before beginning).
That liability means that you are almost have to use some kind of secondary clamp to hold the workpiece down, but even that's problematic given the small size of the furnished table, and only with certain cuts or mortiser installations (it also takes more time to loosen and tighten the clamp each time, needless to say). In my own installation, I found I could use a clamp when feeding the workpiece from the left, but when feeding from the right and attempting to cut a mortise at the very end of a wide workpiece, my workbench had no place I could fix an additional clamp. If you try one of these mortisers yourself without an ideal mounting setup, you'll soon discover the limitations involved.
Next, the mortises I was cutting today were through-mortises in pine, and I used a firm backer board, but I did experience substantial tearout whenever I forgot to move the backer board to a fresh, unused spot for a new cut--and with sixty-four moves, that happened several times. So just never forget to use a good, fresh spot on your backer board with each cut to prevent tearout when doing through mortises.
As others have noted, the chisels leave some roughness on the walls, so I cut my mortises slightly undersized and cleaned them up with a fine rasp and chisel, another bit of extra work. To sum up first impressions, I'll say that yes, a benchtop mortiser is an aid, and it probably requires less setup than the preparation I would have to go through for a comparable router mortising jig (in my case, due mostly to space considerations), or for setting up a special table with Forstner bit on my drill press and then chiseling out the corners. But those advantages don't eliminate the labor, nor to they necessarily represent a substantial reduction in the overall time involved; sixty-four moves still require quite a bit of time, and today, for example, it might have been just as fast, or even faster perhaps, to cut the eight mortises with a normal chisel and mallet.
My next step is thus to figure out how to build some kind of sliding table with easily adjustable x-y axes and a good holddown, kinda like the one on this
View Image Powermatic #719 . . .
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
I replaced the table on my SF with a larger phenolic one and cut slots from front to rear about half way through the table surface. I can use Quik-Clamps for better hold-down. I also added a front to rear clamp like on the General and bigger PM-719 by adding a veneer clamp to the stationary cabinet I built. Works pretty well.
I looked at and can devise a way to make the sliding table using a machinist moving vice. I'm hoping to pick up one used as they're not real cheap. Can be done, though.
I'll post pic, but not sure you can see it well..
Good Luck...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Can you get some larger, close-ups? I have a SF and your table looks interesting.
Thanks,
Michael
BADOYN
I have some shots left on a roll of partially used film in the camera. I will attempt to get some closer shots this weed-end if the weather is sunny. Currently raining in Atlanta and I think should clear by late Fri. afternoon.
Will do my best...
Regards...
sarge..jt
Much appreciated.
Michael
Michael
Hope these help. I am not a photographer as you can see. Any questions, ask.........
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Thanks for the pics. The setup looks nice...from what I can tell. Seems like it would make the SF more of a pleasure to use.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael
Definitley helps with the hold-down as all BT's come up short in that area. A release of the clamp and a turn of the forward press releases. Mount a piece of phenolic or some type of slick surface under the machine hold down. This will allow the stock to move to the next cut position without having to release the stock hold-down with the supplied hex wrench.
Not a production process by any means, but an aid to the WW who isn't concerned with deadlines..
sarge..jt
From me, too, Sarge, thanks for the photos. I got some ideas from your setup. In fact, I've got so many ideas recently it's going to take some time to get them sorted out!
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
Let me know what you come up with. If I know you, it will be pretty clever. I could improve on what I got with a sliding table, but there are other priorities. ha...
Have a good day and will be looking for Japanese vegetable pics latter in the summer.
sarge..jt
Norm, here is the Badger Pond link...
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/14-650.shtml
There are literally countless guys over at Woodnet who have done this and they all say that it is a piece of cake and that it literally transforms their BT Mortiser into the easiest joint making machine in their shop.
Don't give up yet!
I made one. Easy to do and works great.
It mades it easy to be more accurate.The proof is in the puddin'
I don't know when your messages were uploaded (no date), but thanks, Kevin. The Grizzly vise was one alternative I'd been thinking about.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Thanks, Sarge. I'd also like to see some closeups of your jig. I'm open to all suggestions. FWIW, here's an interesting setup suggested by someone on another forum:
View Image You can click on the photograph to go the original site that describes the setup.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
Whoa, a picture that moves. You never cease to amaze me with what you know how to do with these computers. I still haven't figured out to make the big letters yet, and my wife won't show me. Considers me dangerous and probaly pretty close to truth. ha..ha..
That's a good idea he has. My forward to rear clamp is but a $9.00 veneer clamp that is attached to a home-made support block mounted to the front of the cabinet. You have to kick it a turn to loosen and slide the stock to the next cut position. Your illustration is an improvement over that as that clamp can be left in position without the adjustment.
The only problem I see with his system is there is still no over-head hold down. As you stated, rack can and will happen as you lift the chisel back up and out of the cut is it is not secured down well. We need to put on the thinking caps and come up with something.
It also amazes me that the manufacturers don't add some of the hold-downs as the floor models. I wouldn't mind paying about $100 to $150 extra to have them already installed. Most have the short levers. The Fox and General have long ones. That can be eliminated by sliding a longer pipe over the current short handle for better leverage.
If someone incorporated some of these features in a BT, they could control the market. Beyond me. I guess no-one said life is simple, as it seems I spend a lot of time modifying as you know. ha...
Will post pics when I get them (hopefully this week-end). Hope all is well in Japan and the veggies have been planted. Shoot some pictures of this years crop. The gardens from last year were great..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Norm
See post #35. If you expect it to move side to side, you will have to grasp your screen on each side and manually move it right and left. ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Paul Jordan had posted on Badger Pond about a table he built for his Multico that used a cross-slide vise, but I can't track down the posting. It looked both simple and useful.
Norm-this is my first time out on the FWW forum. I am preparing to purchase a benchtop Mortiser. Don't give up yet. I normally hang out on the Woodnet(Workbench forum). Numerous guys over there have utilized a $40 Harbor Freight/Grizzly sliding vise to fix this benchtop Mortiser issue you speak of. Let me provide you w/ a couple links...
There is an old post that I believe originated on the Badger Pond forum that started this popular modification. I call it a modification because you have to turn the table around on the mortiser so it faces to the back-no big deal. You then have to modify the vise by removing the flange and then the guide rod.
http://www.shoptours.org/member2/mf-mortiser.jpg
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G1064
I'm not going to enter the lists for the delta vs everyone else bout. However, I hope that you'll find my experience useful.
My wife bought me a far east benchtop mortiser a few years ago. I made doors for the family room cabinets making first the larger ones, then the smaller, then the upper. I used the mortiser for the mortises (wow, brilliant thinking!) and the table saw and a band saw for the tenons.
The doors came out warped! Left and right were warped oppositely. I was determined that the second set of doors wouldn't be warped. I was excruciatingly carefuly about gluing them up flat. Well, the left and right doors for each cabinet were warped oppositly!
By now, I had noticed the reverse symmetry and examined the doormaking process to understand why. What was assymmetrical? The top tenons and the bottom tenon on each door were the same size and distance from the end. I had put two stops on the mortiser fence and cut one end. Then, I FLIPPED the board and cut the other end.
Well, on close examination, I found that the mortising chisel would press down on the board causing the top of the columns to deflect to the rear. It angled the mortise just a degree or so. When I flipped the boards, the other mortise was also off a degree or so THE OTHER WAY. The other stile was also off on each end opposite from the first stile. The result: the small deflection was multiplied by two and was opposite the warp of the other door!
The third set of doors for the upper cabinets, I marked the stiles and never flipped them. The small deflection did not affect the doors and they finally came out well.
I tried a number of benchtop mortisers in stores and the top of all the columns deflected back to some extent angling the mortise. I'm sure that floor models do too, but so little you'll never see it.
The moral? If you use a benchtop mortiser, put the board on the table and don't ever flip it! Just cut the first mortise, slide the board down the table, and cut the second.
PS: I'm a little reluctant to admit that the other two sets of doors still don't close quite right and I doubt that I'll ever replace them. They do close off the cabinets and they look very good (golden fir) if you don't look too close - the mark of the true wood butcher.
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